Excuse my ignorance, but why does Nale hate Malack?

[TARINunit9]

I've been binge-reading old comics, but as I worked through the Empire arc I realized something: I can't find any real reason Nale has for loathing Malack so deeply and trying to kill the cleric at every turn.

Now I understand the out-of-universe reason, Malack popped up in the middle of the story due to... "retcon" is too strong a word, "backfilled" into the lore I think is a better way to put it? Point is, the Vector Legion are replacing the Linear Guild, so Nale hating Tarquin and Malack is both his literal and symbolic last desperate gambit to stay relevant.

And I'd accept that as his reasoning for trying to kill Malack... except Nale mentions he's hated Malack since he was nine years old. And I can't think of any reason given what we know about Nale for him to want to just start killing family colleagues like that. There are a lot of villain archetypes I would ascribe to Nale, but "serial killer"? The closest we've seen is him FAKE being a serial killer

There could be Nale's obsession with killing his brother (since Tarquin makes Nale call the Vector Legion his "uncles" and "aunts") but I'm not sure that's what's going on here. I always read Nale's fratricidal obsession as a product of his father feeding him story cliches, i.e. how the rival in the grand epic stories is always some family member a la Darth Vader or Char Aznable, so it's just natural for siblings to end up in situations trying to kill each other. Would Nale put Malack and Elan in the same boat like that?

I have searched some older threads; the most I found was some theory about how Malack being a vampire "traumatized" Nale, and the evidence was how Nale reacts badly to Vampire Durkon. Except he really doesn't, he even offers Vampire Durkon a spot in the Linear Guild; Nale reacted badly to being defied, not just the presence of another vampire.

I might have just skimmed past a speech balloon about this and didn't notice. Do you guys have anything?

[diremage]

By the power of Grayskull, I cast Speak with Dead! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528107-why-Nale-hated-Malack-(RE-comic-906)

Re: Nale "pretending" to be a serial killer...didn't he have Thog murder a bunch of people into the shape of an arrow to point the Stickites at the building where he was holding Roy's sister hostage? And this is the guy whose succubus GF literally has as her job to lead him to darker and more depraved acts of evil?

[TARINunit9]

Re: Nale "pretending" to be a serial killer...didn't he have Thog murder a bunch of people into the shape of an arrow to point the Stickites at the building where he was holding Roy's sister hostage? And this is the guy whose succubus GF literally has as her job to lead him to darker and more depraved acts of evil?

Exactly. The supposed spree killing was a front for his real agenda

[Paleomancer]

I've been binge-reading old comics, but as I worked through the Empire arc I realized something: I can't find any real reason Nale has for loathing Malack so deeply and trying to kill the cleric at every turn.

Now I understand the out-of-universe reason, Malack popped up in the middle of the story due to... "retcon" is too strong a word, "backfilled" into the lore I think is a better way to put it? Point is, the Vector Legion are replacing the Linear Guild, so Nale hating Tarquin and Malack is both his literal and symbolic last desperate gambit to stay relevant.

And I'd accept that as his reasoning for trying to kill Malack... except Nale mentions he's hated Malack since he was nine years old. And I can't think of any reason given what we know about Nale for him to want to just start killing family colleagues like that. There are a lot of villain archetypes I would ascribe to Nale, but "serial killer"? The closest we've seen is him FAKE being a serial killer

There could be Nale's obsession with killing his brother (since Tarquin makes Nale call the Vector Legion his "uncles" and "aunts") but I'm not sure that's what's going on here. I always read Nale's fratricidal obsession as a product of his father feeding him story cliches, i.e. how the rival in the grand epic stories is always some family member a la Darth Vader or Char Aznable, so it's just natural for siblings to end up in situations trying to kill each other. Would Nale put Malack and Elan in the same boat like that?

I have searched some older threads; the most I found was some theory about how Malack being a vampire "traumatized" Nale, and the evidence was how Nale reacts badly to Vampire Durkon. Except he really doesn't, he even offers Vampire Durkon a spot in the Linear Guild; Nale reacted badly to being defied, not just the presence of another vampire.

I might have just skimmed past a speech balloon about this and didn't notice. Do you guys have anything?

I don't think it was ever specifically addressed, save that Nale's antagonism towards Malack was not mere pettiness at being defied or ignored, but genuine hatred, quite unlike Nale's relationship with the Order, in fact. I also vaguely remember something to the effect of childhood trauma related to Malack, but I'm not sure of the canon nor context of those suggestions, as it's never described in the comic directly.

[TARINunit9]

By the power of Grayskull, I cast Speak with Dead! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528107-why-Nale-hated-Malack-(RE-comic-906)


I don't think it was ever specifically addressed, save that Nale's antagonism towards Malack was not mere pettiness at being defied or ignored, but genuine hatred, quite unlike Nale's relationship with the Order, in fact. I also vaguely remember something to the effect of childhood trauma related to Malack, but I'm not sure of the canon nor context of those suggestions, as it's never described in the comic directly.

So the reigning theory is it's a consequence of Malack being "backfilled" into the lore. I see. Thank you both
I wish there was a more polite term for "retcon", the hard syllables make it sound like it can only be used for the bad kind of retcon where stuff is outright contradicted

[Rogar Demonblud]

It isn't a retcon (gods I hate that term) and it isn't any kind of backfill. It's a reveal, hinting at an even richer backstory just like all the other reveals the Giant has done.

[Xyril]

So the reigning theory is it's a consequence of Malack being "backfilled" into the lore. I see. Thank you both
I wish there was a more polite term for "retcon", the hard syllables make it sound like it can only be used for the bad kind of retcon where stuff is outright contradicted

There's nothing wrong with "retcon," I just think it's overused and often used incorrectly. Sometimes newly revealed history directly conflicts with explicit details, or at least with strongly implied details that most of the audience agrees on--to me, this is the minimum threshold for a "retcon." Much of the time, it's really a reveal as Rogar stated, and people call it a retcon because it conflicts with their head-canon, or they felt that they were owed some foreshadowing, or they simply don't like reevaluating past events through the lens of this new information. (Incidentally, that last bit is a feature, not a bug.) If Nale had certain personality traits, and Malack's presence in his formative years--while not explicitly contradicting any known information--would have made it really strange for Nale to develop those traits, or something like that, then I'd entertain the retcon argument. However, the Malack thing just works. I can probably think of a dozen ways how the presence of a stern vampire "uncle" who was fully committed to the "stay out of the spotlight" plan could have contributed to Nale's pathological need to rebel against authority figures and to be recognized for his achievements.

[factotum]

Nale's whole schtick was taking excessive revenge for quasi-imagined slights. As I said in the thread linked above, he nearly killed Elan just for refusing to work with him. It's therefore not hard to think of Malack doing something nine-year-old Nale took offence to. Heck, imagine this scene: Tarquin and Malack are discussing something that's part of their "three empires" scheme when Nale runs in having just found a stray cat and wanting his dad to watch him torture it to death. Tarquin tells him he's busy with Malack and he'll look at the cat later. Nale immediately decides this brush-off was all Malack's fault and decides he's going to hate him from that moment on.

[RatElemental]

As someone once said:

"It was either something seriously horrible, because Malack was seriously horrible; or something laughably petty, because Nale was laughably petty."

[woweedd]

As someone once said:

"It was either something seriously horrible, because Malack was seriously horrible; or something laughably petty, because Nale was laughably petty."
Or both. It could have been several small incidents, cultimating in one large one, for instance. But, yeah, that's right. I think that was Kish, by the way.

[arverst_aegnar]

Personally, i'd lean toward it being something Malack did more than Nale being petty -- solely because Nale mentions wanting to kill Malack since he was nine. It's possible Nale's antisocial tendencies had already been decided by then, given the atmosphere he was growing up in, but nine years old is still very young, and i believe the Giant has been quite clear that children in his stories are innocent unless clearly depicted otherwise. Which, of course, might happen with Nale in any Vector Legion prequel that someday exists.

[Emanick]

Because Malack murdered Durkon. Seriously, what a monster. :smallfurious:

[Morty]

Yes, I don't know why the word "retcon" is even under consideration. We learned something about Nale that we hadn't before. If there's anything odd here it's that Malack and Nale both died before we learned anything more about it.

[factotum]

It's possible Nale's antisocial tendencies had already been decided by then, given the atmosphere he was growing up in

There's a panel in one of the strips which shows baby Nale hitting baby Elan in the head with his rattle, looking annoyed at him. I think Nale's tendencies were well set on their path before his parents ever split up.

[woweedd]

Personally, i'd lean toward it being something Malack did more than Nale being petty -- solely because Nale mentions wanting to kill Malack since he was nine. It's possible Nale's antisocial tendencies had already been decided by then, given the atmosphere he was growing up in, but nine years old is still very young, and i believe the Giant has been quite clear that children in his stories are innocent unless clearly depicted otherwise. Which, of course, might happen with Nale in any Vector Legion prequel that someday exists.

Eh. It's entirely possible Nale grew a grudge against Malack when he was nine because, I don't know, Malack refused to give him a cookie, and then Nale, being Nale, remembered that grudge until adulthood.

[Paleomancer]

What would make me think that Nale's issues with Malack were more serious is just how focused he was on killing the vampire. Every other time he fights someone, he wastes time and energy gloating, adding in unnecessary complications, and in general sabotages himself trying to hammer in the idea of his alleged greatness. The sheer efficacy and simplicity of his plan to destroy Malack, combined with an atypical lack of gloating (he displayed comments closer in style to Roy's usual combat banter) was distinct from his usual character...

Now of course Mr. Burlew could write it differently if he ever does a Vector Legion prequel, making Nale simply petty. I sincerely hope he doesn't. Nale was genuinally competent and menacing in that scene, an indication that he could have been as great a villain as he wanted to be, had he not been so psychotic and self-absorbed.

Retcon is a valid term in literature, but it does get misused a great deal. In this case, all we knew about Nale prior to the Empire of Blood arc is that he was Elan's identical twin, their father was the LE general of an army, and... Not much else really. Plenty of room to flesh out details.

[diremage]

Hmmm, I now have a pet theory for why Nale hates Malack.

9-year-old Nale: "I wanna summon a succubus!"

Malack: "Not until you're older, kid."

Nale: (Summons succubus). "Hate you forever!"

[The Pilgrim]

Malak was once Nale's teacher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html).

Do you need any more reason for Nale "disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights" to want to kill him hard?

Those of you who have never endured at least one LE teacher at some point of your time in school, and have never felt the desire to see him or her dead, one step forward.

No one?

Maybe someday Rich decides to write the story of Nale's infancy and youth, and a more solid reason is presented. But, lacking that, the information already presented in the Comic shows enough of a motivation for Nale.

[brian 333]

I was not aware that Nale needed a reason to hate anyone, but if he does I imagine he could concoct one from the slightest slight.

A better question would be, 'Why doesn't Nale hate something.' Like Tarquin, Nale believes the entire world exists for his personal benefit, and if anyone fails to conform to that worldview it is sufficient justification to murder the offender.

Note Tarquin's reaction to Nale's announcement that he didn't need Tarquin. Tarquin reacted immediately, but it was only a matter of time until Nale would have gotten him had he not done so.

[TARINunit9]

Yes, I don't know why the word "retcon" is even under consideration. We learned something about Nale that we hadn't before. If there's anything odd here it's that Malack and Nale both died before we learned anything more about it.

Retcon's original literal definition is retroactive continuity. Malack didn't exist in Nale's backstory when Nale was first introduced, he was added in retroactively.

The reason I keep using "backfill" is because I otherwise agree with you: the common parlance definition of retcon is derogatory as it implies contradictions (either literal or thematic) with earlier published works, which does not apply to Malack

[MReav]

There is no reason stated for Nale's murderboner for Malack. Something incredibly petty is just as likely as something heinous, and everything in-between.

I still go with the Family Guy explanation.

Malack: Hey birthday boy, want some ice cream?

Nale: Yes, but no sprinkles. For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you.

Malack: (Puts 4 sprinkles just to spite Nale).

[The Aboleth]

I always thought this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?437208-Digital-PDF-versions-of-Dungeon-Crawlin-Fools-On-the-Origin-of-PCs-now-on-sale!/page6&p=19811768#post19811768

...was a hint about a potential Vector Legion prequel. However, with the release last year of Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, I'm no longer so sure. GDGU isn't entirely a prequel, but it's close enough that it's possible it was the book The Giant was hinting towards.

Regardless, we likely will never get an answer to why Nale hated Malack unless/until we get a Vector Legion prequel.

[NerdyKris]

Retcon's original literal definition is retroactive continuity. Malack didn't exist in Nale's backstory when Nale was first introduced, he was added in retroactively.

The reason I keep using "backfill" is because I otherwise agree with you: the common parlance definition of retcon is derogatory as it implies contradictions (either literal or thematic) with earlier published works, which does not apply to Malack

Backfill is still a weird choice of words though. Most stories aren't told linearly from the moment of a character's birth until the end of the story. You're always going to be finding out new information about a character's past, because that's how stories work. Otherwise you're just writing a biography.

A retcon is specifically changing a previous fact. It does not mean revealing a fact that previously wasn't known and doesn't contradict anything.

[Morty]

In OotS' particular case, pretty much the entire story is "backfilled", because the original concept was six characters having goofy adventures in a dungeon.

[NerdyKris]

Almost every story is told that way. Very few stories run down a list of significant events in a character's life before starting, they just come up naturally as the story progresses.

[factotum]

A retcon is specifically changing a previous fact. It does not mean revealing a fact that previously wasn't known and doesn't contradict anything.

Yeah, I agree. Us learning that Malack existed in Nale's past when we did is totally not a retcon because it doesn't change anything we already knew about the character.

[Worldsong]

I do hope that whatever it was, it was something serious.

As others have pointed out Nale seemed a lot more focused and pragmatic when it came to killing Malack. It'd be a shame if that was just the result of a slight rather than him showing a more serious side to himself when dealing with something really important.

[Squire Doodad]

I do hope that whatever it was, it was something serious.

As others have pointed out Nale seemed a lot more focused and pragmatic when it came to killing Malack. It'd be a shame if that was just the result of a slight rather than him showing a more serious side to himself when dealing with something really important.

Honestly, while Nale probably has had a strong dislike of Malack since he was 9, I imagine that it didn't evolve into true, pure hatred until later. Possibly involving murder. It does sound to be quite serious though, and based on something more than a petty squabble.

Come to think of it, if Malack did something so serious to Nale that it caused Nale to go seriously out of his way to kill him, then it is possible that Nale killed Malack's children not to even the score or for "practice" but rather to get Malack to understand the level of rage Nale felt towards him.

[Ruck]

I just appreciate the irony that the one time Nale finally got what he wanted-- a successful plan he could gloat about-- he was immediately killed for it.

[Vinyadan]

Two things.

One is that Malack was a hypocrite. We have seen him use politeness to pretend civility in his interactions while he was making impossible requests, and earlier, before any animosity, while feeding him blood and warts. This was after, what, half an hour? How is it to be raised for years by such a creature, as a child?

The other one is that Tarquin used Nale as a tool, something of which Nale was very aware. However, he interacted with Malak as with a friend: Malak, the hypocrite undead abomination. I think it was very hard to swallow for Nale: knowing that his father didn't love him, but seeing him be best chumps with Malack.



Come to think of it, if Malack did something so serious to Nale that it caused Nale to go seriously out of his way to kill him, then it is possible that Nale killed Malack's children not to even the score or for "practice" but rather to get Malack to understand the level of rage Nale felt towards him.

Or even to protect himself. I can see him being under the monsters' thumb.

[The Pilgrim]

I just appreciate the irony that the one time Nale finally got what he wanted-- a successful plan he could gloat about-- he was immediately killed for it.

Tarquin didn't kill Nale for croaking Malack. Tarquin was perfectly okay with letting Nale get away with it, if that meant Nale was going to finally accept Tarquin's authority.

Tarquin told him so, literally, explicitly: "Now come on, I'm sure I can smooth things over with Laurin. We'll have you up up and running as part of the team in no time."
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html)

Nale refused to become another of Tarquin's pawns, and that's why Tarquin killed him.

[Paleomancer]

One is that Malack was a hypocrite. We have seen him use politeness to pretend civility in his interactions while he was making impossible requests, and earlier, before any animosity, while feeding him blood and warts. This was after, what, half an hour? How is it to be raised for years by such a creature, as a child?

Malack is assuredly a hypocrite (furious about the destruction of his own spawn, but willing to feed on innocents and sacrifice thousands more in wars of conquest and sacrificial ritual), but bear in mind that civility from villains need not be a lie, and in Malack's case, is assuredly not a lie towards those he sees worthy of respect (i.e. the Vector Legion, Durkon, etc.). It doesn't at all reduce the evil of Malack's actions if his civility, or even affection, is in fact genuine (or at least as genuine as an undead predator can muster).


The other one is that Tarquin used Nale as a tool, something of which Nale was very aware. However, he interacted with Malak as with a friend: Malak, the hypocrite undead abomination. I think it was very hard to swallow for Nale: knowing that his father didn't love him, but seeing him be best chumps with Malack.
I doubt Nale was concerned with hypocrisy per se (his lover was a soul-draining CE demon, hardly any less horrific than a vampire - though less powerful than that particular vampire), but a long-since-crushed childhood affection for one's father is a plausible hypothesis as to Nale's anger, given the few facts we possess.

[Morty]

I agree that if we ever find out why Nale hated Malack, it'll be disappointing if it's something petty. Nale's plan to kill Malack was, as others have said, very unlike his usual methods. It was effective, direct and successful, without Nale's usual ego-tripping. He hated Malack enough that he didn't care if the vampire knew how smart he is before he died. A testament to what Nale was capable of if he didn't let his arrogance get in the way, maybe.

[Aeson]

Something else that might be affecting Nale's antipathy for Malack is that Malack clearly expected to inherit the fruits of the Vector Legion's labors: a unified continent to rule as he pleased. Nale might see this as a usurpation of his 'rightful' inheritance - Tarquin sees himself as the leader of the Vector Legion and certainly appears to be the type to have dynastic ambitions and groom his son as heir apparent, and Nale is sufficiently egotistical that he may very well have seen himself as entitled to succeed his father upon Tarquin's death even if he hadn't been groomed as heir apparent, at least prior to switching over to "I hate you and don't want anything you can give me."

[Mike Havran]

My theory:
We know Nale hated Malack since he was nine. We know that he gave Malack reason to hate him (obviously by murdering his spawn) only two years ago. Also, in #907, when Nale tries to hire "Durkon", he mentions he can help him "through this transitional period." Of course the wording had to be deliberately ambiguous at that time, but with information we learned later, I think Nale does know how vampires really work and that there is a transitional period after which the vampire is fully developed. So my theory is that Malack vamped somebody Nale was close to, and that Nale eventually learned his former friend had been trapped in dead body with Malacks spawn in control. That would be a serious reason why Nale was so much more determined to terminate Malack over the Order or Tarquin.

[TARINunit9]

A retcon is specifically changing a previous fact. It does not mean revealing a fact that previously wasn't known and doesn't contradict anything.


Yeah, I agree. Us learning that Malack existed in Nale's past when we did is totally not a retcon because it doesn't change anything we already knew about the character.

You know how "immolate" used to mean "to burn in a sacrificial pyre" but now just means "to engulf in flames"?

I have it on good authority that "retcon" is the same thing (albeit in the other direction). According to that guy, who studies continuity for a living, the idea that "retcon" MUST involve an explicit contradiction is a modern concept

The example he used was Batman getting 10 minutes of his memory erased by the rest of the Justice League in Identity Crisis. It wasn't an explicit contradiction of any earlier continuity, but it was still an obvious rewrite due to how blatantly it re-contextualizes the events (the mind-melting of Dr. Light, changing it from an ethical argument to a tragedy of haste and guilt)

To be clear, I consider Malack vs. Nale to be a level below that, since it's filling in an empty gap rather than replacing earlier implications with newer ones

[Morty]

Nale does say that he murdered Malack's children as a practice run, though. This suggests that his real target was Malack all along. And I don't feel he'd lie to Malack in the latter's final moments.

[HorizonWalker]

Nale could've hated Malack for much longer than just since he was nine- that milestone is just when Nale started thinking about killing Malack. As awful as Nale is, he might have still been capable, at some point, of hating someone without necessarily wanting them dead.

[Particle_Man]

My theory:
We know Nale hated Malack since he was nine. We know that he gave Malack reason to hate him (obviously by murdering his spawn) only two years ago. Also, in #907, when Nale tries to hire "Durkon", he mentions he can help him "through this transitional period." Of course the wording had to be deliberately ambiguous at that time, but with information we learned later, I think Nale does know how vampires really work and that there is a transitional period after which the vampire is fully developed. So my theory is that Malack vamped somebody Nale was close to, and that Nale eventually learned his former friend had been trapped in dead body with Malacks spawn in control. That would be a serious reason why Nale was so much more determined to terminate Malack over the Order or Tarquin.

I wonder if it is something like Nale deciding at nine that he will marry friend X (as kids sometimes say), Tarquin deciding the match was unsuitable, telling Malack, and Malack dealing with it as vampires do. This would give a reason for Nale to hate both Tarquin and Malack, and fits with Tarquin's need to stage manage everything.

[The_Weirdo]

Nale is an authoritarian. So is Malack. Two authoritarians don't become besties unless one submits to the other. Neither did.

[Mike Havran]

Nale is an authoritarian. So is Malack. Two authoritarians don't become besties unless one submits to the other. Neither did.Tarquin and Malack were buddies despite both of them being authoritarian.

[Heksefatter]

I think that it is ultimately about clashing personalities.

Malack is generally calm and collected. And he can be extremely dismissive. He also dislikes showboating. He must have been utterly infuriating to Nale for these reasons.

Nale: "Dad! Dad! I got a cunning plan." (Apolgies to Blackadder and Baldrick.)

Tarquin (sighs): "Not now, Nale. Grown-ups are talking."

Nale: "But dad..."

Malack: "Run along, little one. It is not time for childish schemes."

And that went on for almost all of Nale's life. Nale's frustrations at not being taken seriously were channeled mostly towards Malack, being his dad's best friend, and being so dismissively contemptous and utterly different from Nale in demeanour.

Even if Malack at some point DID wrong Nale seriously, I think it would be incidental to the pure adulterated hate that Nale developed from that basic conflict. This isn't about ONE thing, no matter how major. It is about EVERYTHING.

And I don't consider it a retcon either. A retcon is when you change some background stuff, which is in conflict with established canon. For example, if it was suddenly established that Nale used to be a sweet kid, until Malack came along. This, on the other hand, is merely adding to the backstory. For example, if we one day learn why James Bond likes his drinks that way (sorry if it is a poor example - my familiarity with Bond isn't that great), it is not a retcon, but developing the backstory.

[NerdyKris]

I have it on good authority that "retcon" is the same thing (albeit in the other direction). According to that guy, who studies continuity for a living, the idea that "retcon" MUST involve an explicit contradiction is a modern concept

Ah, the "some person I won't name or give a source for says so" argument. Well here's two sources that say it only dates back to 1973, and always meant changing established continuity.

Retcon is a shortened form of retroactive continuity, and refers to a literary device in which the form or content of a previously established narrative is changed .... The term appears to have its roots in a 1973 book by E. Frank Tupper titled The Theology of Wolfhart Pannenberg: “Pannenberg’s conception of retroactive continuity ultimately means that history flows fundamentally from the future into the past.” (https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/retcon-history-and-meaning)

and

Retcon is a relatively new word that was first included in the Oxford English Dictionary in 2012. (https://grammarist.com/new-words/retcon/)

Do you have a source for the word existing in a different form prior to that?

[The_Weirdo]

Tarquin and Malack were buddies despite both of them being authoritarian.

And Malack submitted.

[Peelee]

For example, if we one day learn why James Bond likes his drinks that way (sorry if it is a poor example - my familiarity with Bond isn't that great), it is not a retcon, but developing the backstory.

That's a hilariously good example, since Battle Royale (the serious one) introduced exactly that. The bartender asked if Bond wanted his martini stirred or shaken*, Bond said he didn't care, bartender stirred it and Bind was poisoned by it. Voila, backstory to "shaken, not stirred."

*a bartender should ideally never ask this, since shaking it is a faux pas; it aerates the drink and blunts the flavor, both of which may be personal preferences, but it also creates flakes of ice in the drink, which looks bad and makes for a poorer experience. Bartlet (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M8oibBJTEpc) knows the deal.

Also, Gus, really? Lazenby?

[woweedd]

That's a hilariously good example, since Battle Royale (the serious one) introduced exactly that. The bartender asked if Bond wanted his martini stirred or shaken*, Bond said he didn't care, bartender stirred it and Bind was poisoned by it. Voila, backstory to "shaken, not stirred."

*a bartender should ideally never ask this, since shaking it is a faux pas; it aerates the drink and blunts the flavor, both of which may be personal preferences, but it also creates flakes of ice in the drink, which looks bad and makes for a poorer experience. Bartlet (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M8oibBJTEpc) knows the deal.

Also, Gus, really? Lazenby?
In fairness, a shaken martini has more antioxidants than a stirred one. Plus, with potato-based vodka, of the kind Bond was drinking during the first use of that line in the books, shaking can actually help to eliminate the somewhat-oily that comes with using potatoes as opposed to modern grain-based variants, he said with the confidence of a man who has never so much as smelled alcohol, but has infinite access to Google. I swear, that thing makes your effective IQ jump 60 points.

[Riftwolf]

That's a hilariously good example, since Battle Royale (the serious one) introduced exactly that. The bartender asked if Bond wanted his martini stirred or shaken*, Bond said he didn't care, bartender stirred it and Bind was poisoned by it. Voila, backstory to "shaken, not stirred."

*a bartender should ideally never ask this, since shaking it is a faux pas; it aerates the drink and blunts the flavor, both of which may be personal preferences, but it also creates flakes of ice in the drink, which looks bad and makes for a poorer experience. Bartlet (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M8oibBJTEpc) knows the deal.

Also, Gus, really? Lazenby?

Casino Royale, surely

Unless all former Bonds were rounded up onto an island to fight to the death

In which case, Dalton wins

[Peelee]

Casino Royale, surely

Unless all former Bonds were rounded up onto an island to fight to the death

In which case, Dalton wins

Blah, I don't know how I managed to make that mistake. Thanks.

Also I'll second Dalton.

[The Pilgrim]

Roger Moore would be the first to fall. He was taken down with just one punch in the brawl with the biker gang in Cannonball. He woudn't last five minutes in Battle Royale against the other Bonds.

Pierce Brosnan would fall next. He is basically clueless without a woman behind him doing all the real work.

[Peelee]

Imean, the plots to Dalton's movies were literally "it's open season on spies, kill us before we kill you!" and "I'm going to kill everyone between me and you, and then I'm going to kill you." It's almost as if his stories singularly trained him for a Bond Battle Royale.

[Morquard]

I think he did something that even Nale thought was truly horrible.

Maybe something like this:
Tarquin's fourth wife had been more of a mother to Nale than any of the other wives, and they got along really great. But Tarquin finds out that she's trying to leave him, and maybe even wants to take Nale with her, to get her away from the evil father. So he gives her to Malack, and Nale wanders in just as he sucks her dry.

Since that day Nale was planning his revenge and also the slightest slights would get extreme response from him. Because if he escalates the situation first, it can never escalate on him.

[RatElemental]

and maybe even wants to take Nale with her, to get her away from the evil father.

Now see, if it turned out Nale was born female and was a transman, now that would be a retcon.

[Vinyadan]

Mhm... there also was Tarquin saying he had had experiences with Sabine. I wonder if it could have something to do with it.

But then, Sabine may have been originally sent for Tarquin, and have later fallen in love with Nale.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I doubt Sabine would've been sent to recruit Tarquin. Like the Powers Below said when Qarr tried to swing a soul-for-power deal for Kubota, insufficient return on investment. Because they've got his worm-ridden filth of a soul already.

[diremage]

I doubt Sabine would've been sent to recruit Tarquin. Like the Powers Below said when Qarr tried to swing a soul-for-power deal for Kubota, insufficient return on investment. Because they've got his worm-ridden filth of a soul already.

If it's true that the Powers Below don't bother with low-ROI, then Nale killing Malack is possibly Sabine's greatest masterwork in the last century.

Here we have a guy blinded by petty pride and surrounded by Evil influences, but the outcome of his soul is still so much in doubt that they send a Succubus to hang out with him, almost constantly by his side, for years on end just to make sure that when he finally kills the elder vampire, he's doing it for no better reason than raw, malevolent hate. There's no subsequent goal to this plan, no overarching End to justify the Means, no moral justification of "you are inherently evil and if someone's gotta take you out, I choose me."

It's just Nale, able to set aside the pride that constantly cripples him, in one moment of hate-inspired murder, just prior to his final end. There is no possibility of redemption, no list of excuses, just "Go to Hell. Go directly to Hell, do not pass Cloud Judgement, do not collect $200."

[Peelee]

I doubt Sabine would've been sent to recruit Tarquin. Like the Powers Below said when Qarr tried to swing a soul-for-power deal for Kubota, insufficient return on investment. Because they've got his worm-ridden filth of a soul already.

Yes, but Tarquin nor Nale ever seemed to want to sell their souls, so it's not really analogous. It was still worth sending Qarr to Kubota's side, for example, which is slightly more fitting to sending Sabine to Tarquin (if that's what happened).

[Rrmcklin]

Mhm... there also was Tarquin saying he had had experiences with Sabine. I wonder if it could have something to do with it.

But then, Sabine may have been originally sent for Tarquin, and have later fallen in love with Nale.

How would that translate to a grudge against Malack? A grudge that Nale apparently held since he was at least 9?

[ijuinkun]

Those of you who have never endured at least one LE teacher at some point of your time in school, and have never felt the desire to see him or her dead, one step forward.


Sorry, all of my Evil teachers were Neutral or Chaotic. :smallsmile:

[factotum]

I doubt Sabine would've been sent to recruit Tarquin. Like the Powers Below said when Qarr tried to swing a soul-for-power deal for Kubota, insufficient return on investment. Because they've got his worm-ridden filth of a soul already.

Tarquin's soul is already theirs, certainly, but what about all the people that he's corrupting by running his three empire scam? Look at the Empire of Blood--to get anywhere in it you need to be the same sort of vicious sod as Tarquin himself, and all those thousands of guards etc. can't all just be "following orders".

[The Pilgrim]

I wonder why three fiends whose purpose is to spread unnecesary, destructive conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) would send a succubus agent to manipulate Tarquin, a guy devoted to control the Western Continent by promoting endless unnecesary destructive conflict... :smallwink:

It would be funny if Tarquin's Master Plan were, in fact, had been inspired by the IFCC trough Sabine.

[RatElemental]

Tarquin's soul is already theirs, certainly, but what about all the people that he's corrupting by running his three empire scam? Look at the Empire of Blood--to get anywhere in it you need to be the same sort of vicious sod as Tarquin himself, and all those thousands of guards etc. can't all just be "following orders".

Tarquin strikes me as the type to use conscription, honestly. We already know that if you cross him he can have your entire family erased.

[Khay]

One thing that always struck me about Malack's death was how simple and straightforward it was. Remember that Nale was a terrible planner and very prone to overcomplication - his schemes tended to get worse the more time he had to plan, in fact - but there's no sign of this with Malack. He didn't even pause to lecture Malack!

I might be reading too much into it, but to me this suggests that Nale took this grudge a lot more seriously than the one against Elan and company.

[Quebbster]

One thing that always struck me about Malack's death was how simple and straightforward it was. Remember that Nale was a terrible planner and very prone to overcomplication - his schemes tended to get worse the more time he had to plan, in fact - but there's no sign of this with Malack. He didn't even pause to lecture Malack!

I might be reading too much into it, but to me this suggests that Nale took this grudge a lot more seriously than the one against Elan and company.

:nale: "With Malack, it was Always kill or be killed." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html)
That sums up the difference nicely. Nale knew he couldn't screw up his chance to kill Malack, because if he did he would be dead. Screwing up against the Order is a lot less fatal.

[Vinyadan]

I doubt Sabine would've been sent to recruit Tarquin. Like the Powers Below said when Qarr tried to swing a soul-for-power deal for Kubota, insufficient return on investment. Because they've got his worm-ridden filth of a soul already.

If the IFCC were only interested in the souls of individuals, sure. But we have seen that they like having other, long haul projects. Tarquin is powerful and dangerous, and he interacts with other powerful people. A liaison with him should be useful.


How would that translate to a grudge against Malack? A grudge that Nale apparently held since he was at least 9?

Good question. I probably could cook up a way to make that make sense, but it would be very far-fetched.

[Cazero]

:nale: "With Malack, it was Always kill or be killed." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html)
That sums up the difference nicely. Nale knew he couldn't screw up his chance to kill Malack, because if he did he would be dead. Screwing up against the Order is a lot less fatal.
No no nonono. The difference is that none of that pyramid escapade under Tarquin's supervision was part of Nale's plans. Consequently, there was no needlessly complicated plan at all. He simply killed Malack when he saw the perfect opportunity showing up.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder why three fiends whose purpose is to spread unnecesary, destructive conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) would send a succubus agent to manipulate Tarquin, a guy devoted to control the Western Continent by promoting endless unnecesary destructive conflict... :smallwink: It would be funny if Tarquin's Master Plan were, in fact, had been inspired by the IFCC trough Sabine. Doubly so in terms of how it makes Tarquin a subject of, not the master of, the narrative. :smallcool:

[D.One]

How would that translate to a grudge against Malack? A grudge that Nale apparently held since he was at least 9?

Maybe Malack did lots of "Nale to the Coffin" jokes back in the past...:smallbiggrin:

[FujinAkari]

Ah, the "some person I won't name or give a source for says so" argument. Well here's two sources that say it only dates back to 1973, and always meant changing established continuity.

Retcon is a shortened form of retroactive continuity, and refers to a literary device in which the form or content of a previously established narrative is changed .... The term appears to have its roots in a 1973 book by E. Frank Tupper titled The Theology of Wolfhart Pannenberg: “Pannenberg’s conception of retroactive continuity ultimately means that history flows fundamentally from the future into the past.” (https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/retcon-history-and-meaning)

and

Retcon is a relatively new word that was first included in the Oxford English Dictionary in 2012. (https://grammarist.com/new-words/retcon/)

Do you have a source for the word existing in a different form prior to that?

In addition to this (and I apologize if it feels like I'm piling on,) would it even matter if the claim of a different historical meaning was true? If the argument is "Oh, well there is this other definition that is now obsolete." If the word is accepted to mean one thing, then that is how everyone will use it. Unless the poster is as vampiric as Malack, there is no viable reason for the outdated usage to be used. :)

[Quebbster]

No no nonono. The difference is that none of that pyramid escapade under Tarquin's supervision was part of Nale's plans. Consequently, there was no needlessly complicated plan at all. He simply killed Malack when he saw the perfect opportunity showing up.
Seems to me Z knew what Nale was planning to do. I agree that Nale seized the opportunity when it presented itself, but I think he had made plans for how to do it in advance. He had a pretty good idea about what Malack's defenses were after all.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If the IFCC were only interested in the souls of individuals, sure. But we have seen that they like having other, long haul projects. Tarquin is powerful and dangerous, and he interacts with other powerful people. A liaison with him should be useful.

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!

We have no idea if Sabine was working for the IFCC at that point, or some random schmoe in the Abyss. And CE demons have little reason to do anything with a LE fighter, other than kill him.

[D.One]

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!

We have no idea if Sabine was working for the IFCC at that point, or some random schmoe in the Abyss. And CE demons have little reason to do anything with a LE fighter, other than kill him.

Well, she was with Nale because of his Eeeeevil potential (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html).

[Schroeswald]

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!

We have no idea if Sabine was working for the IFCC at that point, or some random schmoe in the Abyss. And CE demons have little reason to do anything with a LE fighter, other than kill him.

We don’t know she’s not in league with them, it showed that she could have been assigned to Tarquin.

Also the IFCC are LE, NE and CE, I don’t remember which is which. They aren’t all Chaotic Evil is the point. Also they might not have interest in some fighter but some fighter who seems to have a working plan to take over the entire Western Continent might be more interesting (but they also have no interest in killing him, he creates more death and conflict so even if he isn’t important enough to help he isn’t hurting anything).

[HorizonWalker]

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!

We have no idea if Sabine was working for the IFCC at that point, or some random schmoe in the Abyss. And CE demons have little reason to do anything with a LE fighter, other than kill him.

Thankfully, someone else already linked to this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html). However, I'd like to point out the very specific word Sabine uses to refer to her superiors:

"Archfiends."

Not "archdemons" or "demon lords." Specifically "archfiends." Now, obviously, it's just one word that doesn't actually have to imply anything; people use words that are slightly wrong but close enough to what they mean all the time, and rarely is it on purpose. But, considering the IFCC has a group shot of the OG LG, plus Sabine specifying archfiend- as in, potentially a devil, daemon, or demon- all this leads me to believe she was in their pocket from the very beginning.

[Riftwolf]

Thankfully, someone else already linked to this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html). However, I'd like to point out the very specific word Sabine uses to refer to her superiors:

"Archfiends."

Not "archdemons" or "demon lords." Specifically "archfiends." Now, obviously, it's just one word that doesn't actually have to imply anything; people use words that are slightly wrong but close enough to what they mean all the time, and rarely is it on purpose. But, considering the IFCC has a group shot of the OG LG, plus Sabine specifying archfiend- as in, potentially a devil, daemon, or demon- all this leads me to believe she was in their pocket from the very beginning.

Think you're reading too much into it. If she'd said 'archdemons/pit lords/balors', it would've spoilt the joke of the strip where Haley didn't know her damage reduction. And this was a pre-200 strip where it was still gag a day stuff; I doubt Rich had even thought up the IFCC at that point.

[Squire Doodad]

*Snip*

I think this is a case of Rich making use of previous aspects for worldbuilding, not planning stuff half a decade in advance. What can be taken from it is that Sabine was working for the IFCC from the start, but that's not something that would have been relevant for a while.

[RatElemental]

We don’t know she’s not in league with them, it showed that she could have been assigned to Tarquin.

Also the IFCC are LE, NE and CE, I don’t remember which is which. They aren’t all Chaotic Evil is the point. Also they might not have interest in some fighter but some fighter who seems to have a working plan to take over the entire Western Continent might be more interesting (but they also have no interest in killing him, he creates more death and conflict so even if he isn’t important enough to help he isn’t hurting anything).

Lee is the LE one, Cedrik the CE one, and Nero the NE one. They come with a handy built in mnemonic.

[Rrmcklin]

I wonder why three fiends whose purpose is to spread unnecesary, destructive conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) would send a succubus agent to manipulate Tarquin, a guy devoted to control the Western Continent by promoting endless unnecesary destructive conflict... :smallwink:

It would be funny if Tarquin's Master Plan were, in fact, had been inspired by the IFCC trough Sabine.

You're taking that out of context, as people tend to do. The point they were making is that they want "destructive, unnecessary conflict" for their enemies to slow them down so that the Fiendish races have a better chance of succeeding. They weren't talking about destroying all order just for the sake of it. Certainly not for the destruction of a bunch of Evil empires on material plane which can only be good for them.

[Ruck]

:nale: "With Malack, it was Always kill or be killed." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html)
That sums up the difference nicely. Nale knew he couldn't screw up his chance to kill Malack, because if he did he would be dead. Screwing up against the Order is a lot less fatal.


No no nonono. The difference is that none of that pyramid escapade under Tarquin's supervision was part of Nale's plans. Consequently, there was no needlessly complicated plan at all. He simply killed Malack when he saw the perfect opportunity showing up.

Not sure how that refuses the earlier post. Plus:


Seems to me Z knew what Nale was planning to do. I agree that Nale seized the opportunity when it presented itself, but I think he had made plans for how to do it in advance. He had a pretty good idea about what Malack's defenses were after all.

Yep-- he and Zz'dtri clearly coordinated in advance on what to do if the opportunity presented itself.

[hroþila]

I'd say the comic is quite explicit that it was planned in advance:

Qarr: What the Hell just happened?!?
Nale: Heh. Just a little something we've had in our back pocket. Now seemed like the best time.
Zz'dtri: Worked well.

[Cazero]

Well. I guess I was wrong.

[D.One]

I'd say the comic is quite explicit that it was planned in advance:

Qarr: What the Hell just happened?!?
Nale: Heh. Just a little something we've had in our back pocket. Now seemed like the best time.
Zz'dtri: Worked well.

That seems so. It's a pretty simple and quite generic strategy "If they are in a situation where Malack is outdoors and somehow isolated from the rest of the Vector Legion, and has already used his prepared protection from sunlight, take the staff from him and Z dispels his sunlight protection."

[Quebbster]

That seems so. It's a pretty simple and quite generic strategy "If they are in a situation where Malack is outdoors and somehow isolated from the rest of the Vector Legion, and has already used his prepared protection from sunlight, take the staff from him and Z dispels his sunlight protection."

Sabine obviously knew quite a bit about the Vector Legion's capabilities, so I figure Nale had a good grasp about Malack's defenses. I figure he saw a window of opportunity when Malack cast Protection from Sunlight on Durkon*. He might have pulled Z aside off-camera and pointed out what a great opportunity this might be.
Yeah, more or less what you said, the real difference is when the planning happened. Not that it matters.

[Squire Doodad]

That seems so. It's a pretty simple and quite generic strategy "If they are in a situation where Malack is outdoors and somehow isolated from the rest of the Vector Legion, and has already used his prepared protection from sunlight, take the staff from him and Z dispels his sunlight protection."

It might be simple, but was pulled off with no gloating, no taunting, nothing except for a vague comment that was probably meant to be a signal for Z. That is very un-Nale like, and suggests that Malack was such an important and dangerous target that Nale had to do it. That he couldn't risk putting him in a position to pull a sudden reversal, but rather had to eliminate the threat instantly.

At a certain point, an uncharacteristic level of pragmatism suggests it is actually personal.

[Vinyadan]

It might be simple, but was pulled off with no gloating, no taunting, nothing except for a vague comment that was probably meant to be a signal for Z. That is very un-Nale like, and suggests that Malack was such an important and dangerous target that Nale had to do it. That he couldn't risk putting him in a position to pull a sudden reversal, but rather had to eliminate the threat instantly.

At a certain point, an uncharacteristic level of pragmatism suggests it is actually personal.

The comment may have been a way to tell Z "heads up". Nale initiates the action himself.

[Xyril]

:nale: "With Malack, it was Always kill or be killed." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html)
That sums up the difference nicely. Nale knew he couldn't screw up his chance to kill Malack, because if he did he would be dead. Screwing up against the Order is a lot less fatal.

Aside from the whole Good is always merciful trope, Nale never respected Elan's abilities. Not only did he know that he'd get potentially unlimited second chances, I don't think he ever doubted that victory was possible given a few slight changes in circumstances. Thus with Elan, it made sense to keep rolling the dice to not only get a victory, but to hold out until he gets the precise, over-the-top villain victory Nale would most enjoy.

As you say, with Malack, there'd be no second chances, but I think that even with his ego and his faith in his plans, Nale knew that none of his elaborate schemes could put Malack in a more vulnerable position than what fate just handed him.


If the IFCC were only interested in the souls of individuals, sure. But we have seen that they like having other, long haul projects. Tarquin is powerful and dangerous, and he interacts with other powerful people. A liaison with him should be useful.


Plus, look at all the suffering Tarquin and his allies have caused. They've left countless vanquished nations in their wake, with a lot of survivors hungry for revenge but generally lacking the means to take it. If this leaves two or more non-Evils in a position where they'd be desperate enough to take the deal, then that's already double the return on your typical soul-exchange.

[Squire Doodad]

The comment may have been a way to tell Z "heads up". Nale initiates the action himself.

Well
Yes
That's what I said, though I was slightly ambiguous with my phrasing.

[The Pilgrim]

At a certain point, an uncharacteristic level of pragmatism suggests it is actually personal.

You are talking like if Nale had not shown the same level of brutal pragmatism the first time he backstabbed Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html) and betrayed the Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html).

After learning that all the Order was going to do with him after failing, was sending him to the prison of some arbitrary civilization for his allies to set him free, is when Nale decided to indulge in the over-the-top complicated plan to destroy Elan on every possible level. Nale could afford it because Nale was risking nothing. If he wins, he wins. If he loses, he gets to try again another day. Nale only needs to be lucky once, Elan needs to be lucky every time.

To some extent, I think it was the same with Tarquin. Nale was used to get away with anything under his nose, and that's why he dares to tell him in the face about having murdered Malack. What Nale didn't take into account was that he was no longer Tarquin's sole son. Tarquin had a spare, now. And one that fitted Tarquin's narrative views better.

[Khay]

You are talking like if Nale had not shown the same level of brutal pragmatism the first time he backstabbed Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html) and betrayed the Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html).

It's the combination of pragmatism and planning that I personally think is unusual for Nale. He's always been quite good at thinking on his feet (like when he almost got Elan to stab Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html), or how easily he turned Amun-Zora around to his side (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html)) but terrible at planning. If he's been planning to kill Malack for so long, the "normal" Nale thing to do would be to set up some ridiculously complicated scheme that somehow involves framing Malack for a crime. Something simple and straightforward is very unusual for Nale. Actually, having a backup plan at all is unusual for Nale.

[The Pilgrim]

He had a long term plan the first time we meet him. The plan worked, twarted only by a lucky natural 20 shot.

The second time, his plan was not terrible. It worked. Elan ended in prison and he sucessfully doppelganged himself in the Order.

His plan to locate Girard's Gate actually worked.

Nale was not a terrible planner.

[factotum]

I'd argue with that. Nale's plans tended to be over-complicated--they were like a Swiss watch in that they worked beautifully so long as all the gears meshed as intended, but fell apart completely if one little thing went wrong, as almost invariably happened. His plan to kill Malack was extremely simple by Nale's standards which is why it worked so well.

[The Pilgrim]

Sorry, but, where was the over complex swissclock finetuning in "I get the Amulet of Dorukan, control the army of outdated monsters, then go back to the Western Continent and beat the crap out of my father"?

Perhaps it was in "I use my stepmother as a beacon to scry out the whole Western Continent, and assume the location of the Gate by elimination"?

You are assuming all of Nale's plans must be overly ridiculously complicated because of the sole time he pulled one, in Cliffport, which actually worked. And he pulled it because he could. Because he knew the worst that would happen was some prison time. And he got it right.

[D.One]

Back to the original question of the thread, some things became clear to me:

1) Nale travels a lot.

2) His father, among othe things, uses a whip.

3) He entered the story searching for an ancient artifact of great value and power.


That's the reason he hates Malack.


:nale: "Snakes. Why'd it have to be snakes?"

[Cazero]

Back to the original question of the thread, some things became clear to me:

1) Nale travels a lot.

2) His father, among othe things, uses a whip.

3) He entered the story searching for an ancient artifact of great value and power.


That's the reason he hates Malack.


:nale: "Snakes. Why'd it have to be snakes?"
Missing the hat. And Nale would have to be the one using a whip. Also, he's not named after the dog.

[Schroeswald]

Missing the hat. And Nale would have to be the one using a whip. Also, he's not named after the dog.

How do you know he isn't named after the dog?

[D.One]

Also, he's not named after the dog.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin had a dog called Nale. Or if Malack had a Zombie Dog called Nale, and that's why Tarquin named his son such, choosing Elan's name to be the oposite of Nale.

[Schroeswald]

I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin had a dog called Nale. Or if Malack had a Zombie Dog called Nale, and that's why Tarquin named his son such, choosing Elan's name to be the oposite of Nale.

Or maybe Tarquin and his first wife had twin dogs named Nale and Elan, and they named their twin children after the dogs.

[Cazero]

Look, naming children after dogs is just fine. Can't possibly go wrong in any way. I'm sure all the Fido and Droopy among you would agree.
But naming a dog Nale? Seriously? Who would do that?

[Rogar Demonblud]

In this case, Tarquin.

[Peelee]

Dr. Henry Jones, Jr. wasn't named after the dog. He was named after his father. He nicknamed himself after the dog.

Jeez, did you guys even watch the movies?:smalltongue:

[Cazero]

In this case, Tarquin.
He would do that, the evil bastard. I stand corrected.

[The Pilgrim]

Also, he's not named after the dog.

You stand corrected (read the Order of the ASCII guest strip) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/GuestStrips.html)

[Squire Doodad]

You stand corrected (read the Order of the ASCII guest strip) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/GuestStrips.html)

I just noticed that the guest strips have V's last location being "Charleston".

[D.One]

Dr. Henry Jones, Jr. wasn't named after the dog. He was named after his father. He nicknamed himself after the dog.

Jeez, did you guys even watch the movies?:smalltongue:

Soooo

What you are saying is that Nale's real name is Tarquin Jr, and Elan's real name is Rj Niuqrat?

[Schroeswald]

Soooo

What you are saying is that Nale's real name is Tarquin Jr, and Elan's real name is Rj Niuqrat?

Yep, also for any whip related complaints, Nale worked with Tarkin's empire for awhile so he probably used a whip on slaves.

[Squire Doodad]

Yep, also for any whip related complaints, Nale worked with Tarkin's empire for awhile so he probably used a whip on slaves.

He picked it up and used it a couple times, hit Whip Level 3.
It's like Stop Sign Fu (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/26p26/).