Polymorph and the crag cat?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

My character has Polymorph and has now seen a crag cat so since its a CR1 Beast I can turn myself, a willing creature or something that fails a save into one for a minute.

While one of us is a crag cat do we get the spell turning ability and advantage against spells?

Its probaby not as powerful as being a Giant Ape but its interesting.

[nickl_2000]

Yes, it's an ability in the stat block. It's no different than charge or pounce.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Yes, it's an ability in the stat block. It's no different than charge or pounce.

Thank you for the confirmation.

Are there any other Beasts with similar powers or special abilities?

[diplomancer]

AFB, but I think Polymorph does not require you to have seen the Beast, only wild shape has that requirement (of course, a DM might legitimately ask how your character knows about this creature, but a nature check might suffice)

[hymer]

Are there any other Beasts with similar powers or special abilities?
Hulking crabs have camouflage. Cranium rats have their telepathic shroud. OotA steeders get their 90' jumps with spider climb.

[sambojin]

Thank you for the confirmation.

Are there any other Beasts with similar powers or special abilities?

Define "special ability"?

If you're not used to druiding, then you get a beast's abilities/HP/attacks/vision/skills and movement types. Druids are kind of used to it as a thingy they do.


But for other classes...

Didn't have Fly prepared? Turn into something that flies. A Quetzalcoatlus if the whole party needs to fly. Huge is.

Didn't have a single-target control spell prepared? Restrain-on-hit forms do that. Or just go big and prone stuff. Or fly-grapple something 40' further away or up or off. Depending on initiative order, you can just cast it on an ally within 60', so they can do the control this round.

Need to wallop something so hard their concentration breaks? High CR forms do that. A 6d10+7 damage, +10 attack from a Brachiosaurus is a nice concentration breaking amount of damage in a single attack, with 20' range. For the next hour if you're lucky.

Need another dumb utility spell that you didn't think would come up? Would probably never prepare it or use one of your very few spells known on it? But a beast of a certain CR could do it, almost like you cast a spell that could do that? Welcome to Polymorph.


It can be a combat'y spell. But it's also like minor-utility-wish as well. You should always have it prepared, even as a druid, in which case it's just an extra super-wildshape if needed, but for anyone. It just does so much stuff, that if you can prepare it/know it, any class that can, should.

(download the "Companions for 5e" app on your phone. It gives you a pretty good idea of what Polymorph can do)

[sambojin]

Also, Polymorph is a surprisingly janked-up "ready an action" spell. Honestly, so is Moon Druid's wildshape.

Do you say "when I see an enemy cast a spell, I will cast Polymorph?". Or do you have to specify what you'll turn into while readying the action? Can you say "when I see an enemy cast a single target spell, I cast Polymorph, otherwise I don't"? (maybe a roll vs a certain DC Arcana(Int) check would be required check if you knew what spell was cast?). At the very worst, +34HP and reasonable stats might be good enough, regardless of spell turning.

Imma gonna ready an action this turn:
"If an enemy casts a single target spell against me, (*of 7th level or less, lol*), I cast Polymorph, and turn into a Crag Cat."?

Steady, Tiger.....


(also why the Alert feat is criminally underrated in almost every guide, while also being considered a generically good feat to have. Not only can you act before your enemies, you gain the option to ready an action if you wish, before anyone else can act. Having initiative and no surprise can make the staunchest of DMs cry on how to make "proper, regular encounters")

[JackPhoenix]

Also, Polymorph is a surprisingly janked-up "ready an action" spell. Honestly, so is Moon Druid's wildshape.

Do you say "when I see an enemy cast a spell, I will cast Polymorph?". Or do you have to specify what you'll turn into while readying the action? Can you say "when I see an enemy cast a single target spell, I cast Polymorph, otherwise I don't"? (maybe a roll vs a certain DC Arcana(Int) check would be required check if you knew what spell was cast?). At the very worst, +34HP and reasonable stats might be good enough, regardless of spell turning.

Imma gonna ready an action this turn:
"If an enemy casts a single target spell against me, (*of 7th level or less, lol*), I cast Polymorph, and turn into a Crag Cat."?

Identifiyng spells and readied action both require your reaction, so you can't do both. Even then, reaction comes after the trigger, so you would be affected by the spell before your Polymorphed, assuming whatever spell the enemy has cast didn't disrupt your concentration or otherwise made you unable to use the reaction already. And if you don't cast the readied spell, you'll expend the slot anyway.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Define "special ability"?

If you're not used to druiding, then you get a beast's abilities/HP/attacks/vision/skills and movement types. Druids are kind of used to it as a thingy they do.


But for other classes...

Didn't have Fly prepared? Turn into something that flies. A Quetzalcoatlus if the whole party needs to fly. Huge is.

Didn't have a single-target control spell prepared? Restrain-on-hit forms do that. Or just go big and prone stuff. Or fly-grapple something 40' further away or up or off. Depending on initiative order, you can just cast it on an ally within 60', so they can do the control this round.

Need to wallop something so hard their concentration breaks? High CR forms do that. A 6d10+7 damage, +10 attack from a Brachiosaurus is a nice concentration breaking amount of damage in a single attack, with 20' range. For the next hour if you're lucky.

Need another dumb utility spell that you didn't think would come up? Would probably never prepare it or use one of your very few spells known on it? But a beast of a certain CR could do it, almost like you cast a spell that could do that? Welcome to Polymorph.


It can be a combat'y spell. But it's also like minor-utility-wish as well. You should always have it prepared, even as a druid, in which case it's just an extra super-wildshape if needed, but for anyone. It just does so much stuff, that if you can prepare it/know it, any class that can, should.

(download the "Companions for 5e" app on your phone. It gives you a pretty good idea of what Polymorph can do)

Believe it or not, this is for my Bard(!) who learned Polymorph as a level 4 spell.

Mostly I've been using it to puff back up other party members who are low on hit points. It seems fun to me but they haven't been super thrilled to be Giant Apes or whatever

These crag cats are some odd CR 1 beasts. We had an encounter with a half dozen. I went to polymorph one into a turtle (I have a bag of devouring) and oops, it reflected it back at me comically enough.

So now I've had a necklace of crag cat claws made for me to Animate and I think they'd be interesting beasts to use to Polynorph your friends into

[Chronos]

Quoth sambojin:

Need another dumb utility spell that you didn't think would come up? Would probably never prepare it or use one of your very few spells known on it? But a beast of a certain CR could do it, almost like you cast a spell that could do that? Welcome to Polymorph.
Yes, that's a good summary of what the OP is asking: What are some good utility abilities that you might not have prepared, but that beasts can do? Now that you've restated the question, do you have an answer?

[NaughtyTiger]

Identifiyng spells and readied action both require your reaction, so you can't do both. Even then, reaction comes after the trigger, so you would be affected by the spell before your Polymorphed, assuming whatever spell the enemy has cast didn't disrupt your concentration or otherwise made you unable to use the reaction already. And if you don't cast the readied spell, you'll expend the slot anyway.

To be fair, identifying spells as a reaction is an optional rule in an optional book. In my opinion, it is also a silly rule.

[JackPhoenix]

To be fair, identifying spells as a reaction is an optional rule in an optional book. In my opinion, it is also a silly rule.

Don't disagree with your opinion, but it's the only rule we have on the subject.

[Rukelnikov]

Identifiyng spells and readied action both require your reaction, so you can't do both. Even then, reaction comes after the trigger, so you would be affected by the spell before your Polymorphed, assuming whatever spell the enemy has cast didn't disrupt your concentration or otherwise made you unable to use the reaction already. And if you don't cast the readied spell, you'll expend the slot anyway.

He doesn't want to identify it.

If he can identify it, its because he already knows some spellcasting is going on, that's his perceptible condition.

The begining of the casting has already ended so his action can take place.

Unless you wanna derail this thread I suggest we move on from this topic.

[JackPhoenix]

He doesn't want to identify it.

He does. How else would he know if the spell is single-target and level 7 or lower?

And "beginning of casting" is not a thing. Casting a spell is.

[Rukelnikov]

He does. How else would he know if the spell is single-target and level 7 or lower?

Ok, if he wanted to know those things then yeah he can't do both.


And "beginning of casting" is not a thing. Casting a spell is.

Since you can convey information to your party from beginning of casting till completion, there's definitely stuff going in the middle.

And if you don't like the RAI of letting your party know about it, while reading a party members mind, you can set a Ready for "as soon as he identifies the spell", then when the other party member identifies the spell you get your ready and thus can act after the spell has begun being cast, and before it has been finished.

[JackPhoenix]

And if you don't like the RAI of letting your party know about it, while reading a party members mind, you can set a Ready for "as soon as he identifies the spell", then when the other party member identifies the spell you get your ready and thus can act after the spell has begun being cast, and before it has been finished.

The spell will still get cast first, unless it's got casting time longer than one action. That's both RAW and RAI. The only way to interrupt an action is to have ability that specifically allows it, like Counterspell. Ready doesn't allow that.

[NaughtyTiger]

The spell will still get cast first, unless it's got casting time longer than one action. That's both RAW and RAI. The only way to interrupt an action is to have ability that specifically allows it, like Counterspell. Ready doesn't allow that.

We have already argued looooong threads about this. We don't need to hijack another thread. We can agree to disagree for the sake of this thread.

[Rukelnikov]

The spell will still get cast first, unless it's got casting time longer than one action. That's both RAW and RAI. The only way to interrupt an action is to have ability that specifically allows it, like Counterspell. Ready doesn't allow that.

Ready action says it triggers right after the perceivable circumstance is completed, if the person whose mind I'm reading has identified the spell, my condition has been met, thus I get my ready.

Since the spell is identified "as its being cast" I get my ready "as the other spell is being cast", thus breaking the holy non-RAW action atomicity of 5e.


We have already argued looooong threads about this. We don't need to hijack another thread. We can agree to disagree for the sake of this thread.

I noted this in my first post. Seems he wanted to derail the thread.

[JackPhoenix]

I noted this in my first post. Seems he wanted to derail the thread.

Funny how you jumped in with your baseless claims that go against both RAW and RAI and then blame me for derailing the thread. "No, I haven't read your post and what you were reacting to, but here are my houserules, and don't derail the thread by calling me out on them"

[Rukelnikov]

Funny how you jumped in with your baseless claims that go against both RAW and RAI and then blame me for derailing the thread. "No, I haven't read your post and what you were reacting to, but here are my houserules, and don't derail the thread by calling me out on them"

My argument follows RAW, your denies it (and your lack of arguments becomes evident since you are attacking me instead of my argument)

-Identify a spell as its being cast
-Ready: Get your action after perceivable condition is completed
-Ready for when my party member has identified the spell
-I get my action as the identified spell is being cast

[Chronos]

Your original argument (based on the spell being below 7th level and being single-target) went against RAW. Your revised argument (just based on any old spell being cast) does not.

[Rukelnikov]

Your original argument (based on the spell being below 7th level and being single-target) went against RAW. Your revised argument (just based on any old spell being cast) does not.

Yeah, it was more about the interrupting anothers casting part.

As for specific spell ready, if we take RAI into consideration, a party member should be able to relay the information of the identify spell to its allies before spellcasting completion as per this exchange here:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/06/im-curious-about-the-design-intent-by-having-identifying-a-spell-take-a-reaction-action/

"Would it be reasonable that one person could identify a spell and another counterspell it with that knowledge?
Jeremy Crawford: "Yes."

And, if you don't like that RAI, then the Detect Thoughts on the identifying ally method can be used (this is obviously impractical, since having to spend your concentration on it mid-combat will be far from optimal more often than not)