First BEGUILER Build

[Mescalinic]

Hi everyone.

In another thread a couple of you people made me discover this very cool class, and since I'm about to begin my very first D&D game, I'd like to play a decent build, although I don't wanna play a 'broken-overpowered' one :smallsmile:

I spent the last days getting every peculiar houserule from the DMs, and now I think I've all the info I need to ask the specific questions.

For reason of interest, lore and characterization, the only 100% sure thing is that I wanna play a "Beguiler + Shadow Adept", so a Shadow Weave Magic user.

The progression (I think it is a 'typical' progression) is:

Beguiler 6 - Shadow Adept 1 - Beguiler X

IMPORTANT: even if it has a lot of limitations, I still wanna try and play a 'specialized' Beguiler, not a 'versatile' one, even if that's a weaker build... so I won't take Arcane Disciple, I want to rely only on the Beguiler Spells + the Advance Learning ones.

IMPORTANT 2: The DMs explained to me that in this 'table', players tend to get more money than usual, and magic items are easy to get (well, you still have to pay for them of course) so at high level pretty much everyone can have the +5 stats tomes, the +X enhancing items and so on.

So... my Questions:

1. CHARACTERISTICS

I've got 78 points that I can spend to choose my stats.

For what I've understood (and thank you to Anthrowhale, MisterKaws and all the other guys for the useful infos) for a Beguiler is extremely important to try and win initiative as much as possible, so I've no problem with putting a ton of points on DEX.

STR - 8
DEX - 18
CON - 16
INT - 18
WIS - 10 (or 8)
CHA - 8 (or 10)

I won't be a 'face', and it would be absolutely acceptable given my character background and temperament to have 8 in CHA or in WIS.

I'd like to know what would be best (at low levels, since as I said, at high level stat enhancing items are not only allowed but, even if expensive, still 'easy' to buy) between CHARISMA 8 or WISDOM 8. I undestand that "Wisdom" is a bit more useful during fights, 'because it's the stat of the "WILL SAVE"... so I think I'll go with CHA 8, but I'd love to hear from you if I'm wrong and what's the best course of action.

I know that CHA 8 means -1 to UMD, but as I said, by the time I'm high level enough to use UMD effectively, I'd have already enhanced my stats.

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2. FEATS

Sadly nothing from "Lord of Madness" is allowed, and so is "Keen Intellect".
As I said, I'd like to understand the "best feats" for a pure Beguiler/ShadowAdept, because I'm not grabbing Arcane Disciple.

L 1. Spell Focus Enchantment/Illusion ? Unsettling Enchantments?
L 3. Versatile Spellcaster
L 6. Shadow Weave Magic
L 9. ???
L12. ???
L15. ???
L18. ???

Shadow Weave Magic is the only "mandatory" one.
Versatile Spellcaster seems extremely valuable for a Beguiler.

Other stuff that could be quite important is Heighten Spell and, maybe, Improved Initiative

I imagine that things like "Rapid Metamagic + Quicken" are a bit too 'expensive' for a Beguiler list, but I don't really know :smallredface:

Still the REAL issue are the SPELL FOCUSes.
I don't think I can waste almost every feats to grab both the Illusion and Enchantment line (Spell Focus x2 + Greater Focus x2) so I've to choose one.
The ILLUSION line seems great because of Shadow Conjuration, and because it's my way (if I manage to be creative) to deal a little bit with the undead.
The ENCHANTMENT is more obvious (although as a new player I'm still not 100% sure what I'm allowed to do, especially with NPC) and it gives me the chance to take "Unsettling Enchantments", but I onestly have no idea if that's really useful or underwhelming

I understand that as a Beguiler, ShadowWeave user and Shadow Adept, I've got already some decent CD buff and SR buff... so if I take a SPELL FOCUS, I'd definitely the corresponding GREATER FOCUS.

Of course there are probably 200 other and better feats that you people know about, so I'll be grateful for every advice :)

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Well, that's mostly my two issues, STATISTICS and FEATS.

I know that as a noob I may have misunderstood some important basic stuff, and given my less-than-optimal English, I hope I was intelligible enough :smallredface: thanks

[The Viscount]

Your English is perfectly understandable to me.

Wisdom is indeed the one you should prioritized, not only because of will saves, but also because of spot and listen checks, which essentially everyone has to make.

I don't think Unsettling Enchantment would be particularly useful, or at least not enough to make enchantment win out over illusion. Versatile Spellcaster is indeed excellent for a beguiler.

What's your alignment? If you're any stripe of Good, you might find some use from Vow of Nonviolence. It costs a tax in Sacred Vow and prevents you from dealing lethal damage to humanoids or monstrous humanoids, but it gives you a +4 to the DCs of spells that don't deal lethal damage or ability damage (every one of your spells except for legion of sentinels and power word kill).

[Anthrowhale]

You've said what your character is not (a face), but not really what you want your character to be. What is the role in the overall party?

[Mescalinic]

Your English is perfectly understandable to me.
What's your alignment? If you're any stripe of Good, you might find some use from Vow of Nonviolence.

right, I forgot... I'm NE (but more the amoral - egotistical - pragmatical kind than the 'cruel', evulz kind)

as I said, the only thing I'm 100% sure of is that I'll play a ShadowAdept, which in this table means 15 WISDOM (without the "Shar Quest" stuff I've read somewhere) or a Shar Worshipper :)

and it is a very 'storyline-roleplayng' driven "table", so that's important.

sadly, 'cause that Feat sounds amazing


What is the role in the overall party?

that is the one thing I can't really answer in a "right/wrong" way... :smallredface:, 'cause as I said, it is a very peculiar "table"... I don't even know if this is something that people do in the rest of the world XD (it's not something that's only used in D&D of course, otherwise I would know nothing about it)

still, imagine a multiple DMs, many players, a shared 'world' (this is set in Forgotten Realms btw) which means many adventures, many different parties (but of course with people of similar level) only that at the end of the adventure, you go home (if you're still alive :smallredface:) and maybe next time you'll play with different people.

that's what I meant in the other thread when I said "roleplaying" based and with "social" aspects.



You've said what your character is not (a face), but not really what you want your character to be

A pragmatical, amoral man (with a criminal background, who had to flee to the North) that has some trouble with dreams and memory, and that by nature is not actively malicious (but still 100% selfish and absolutely willing to do horrible things if they benefit him) who loves to make easy money and be left alone. Lazy af, too.

Someone who prefer to work with illusion and mind trick and love having people do the 'dirty-bloody-heavy work' in his stead.

But again, someone pragmatical... not someone who's going to mess with the party just for the evulz. I mean, he must be useful to others... so that he can call in the favour next time :)

I don't know if that's what you were asking :smallredface:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What race is your character?

Are you allowed to use Traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) and/or Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) from UA? The Aggressive trait gives +2 initiative for -1 AC, and each flaw you take gets you an extra feat starting out, up to two.


The first thing you should do is check with your DM to see whether Versatile Spellcaster alone will grant you early access to the next higher level of spells, or if you'll also need Heighten Spell for that.

This is important for getting higher level Advanced Learning spells. With early access to spells one higher level at any given character level, and the prestige class dip to delay Beguiler 7+ by one level, your advanced learning spells can be 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th. This allows you to take Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form (or some other 5th or lower utility spell), Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility (or any other 9th or lower enchantment or illusion spell).

You need to have Versatile Spellcaster and if necessary Heighten Spell by 3rd level to pick Ray of Stupidity for your first Advanced Learning spell. Unlike similar spells like Ray of Enfeeblement, it deals ability damage which can reduce an ability score to zero. A creature reduced to Int 0 falls unconscious and is in a coma until they heal at least one point of Int. That automatically disables any target you hit that has animal intelligence, and it can be combined with Split Ray and (Lesser Rod of) Empower or Maximize to disable most bruiser-types with one shot as well.

If you'll be taking Heighten Spell, consider taking a reserve feat. Heighten allows you to always count your highest level spell slot (or one higher than your two highest slots thanks to Versatile Spellcaster) for the level of spell you have available when activating a reserve feat. Provided you can cast a spell of the appropriate type to activate that reserve feat, that is. However, there aren't really any useful reserve feats that the Beguiler spell list would give you access to, so you would want to look into expanding your spell list, possibly with a bloodline feat in Dragon Compendium. That wouldn't be a bad idea anyway, and there's sure to be a bloodline that's fitting for your character and doesn't exclude many (or any at all) spells you would normally be able to cast.

Some of your best combat spells aren't illusions or enchantments, and/or don't have a saving throw. Glitterdust, Fog Cloud, Solid Fog, etc. are conjurations, Haste and Slow are transmutations, and so forth. Spell Focus: Illusion is a good choice if you're spending feats on those, due to Color Spray early on and (Greater) Shadow Evocation/Conjuration later, plus all the useful illusions in between. However, between Hold Person/Monster, Suggestion and similar, the Whelm line of spells, there's a good argument for taking Spell Focus: Enchantment.

Consider taking Obtain Familiar in Complete Arcane, if you can get a hummingbird familiar from Dragon 323. That has the stats of a thrush (DMG p203) and gives you a +4 bonus to initiative. Alternatively, get that with Improved Familiar for an Imp or Quasit, depending on your alignment. That can use tanglefoot bags and activate wands using your UMD ranks and its own Cha bonus, plus it has regeneration and turns invisible so it's much less of a liability.

One very powerful trick against enemy spellcasters is to ready an action to cast Silence if an opponent starts casting a spell with a verbal component. Center the silence spell on a point in space, close enough that they're within the spell's area, and they won't even get a saving throw or SR check. That stops them from completing the verbal component of the spell, and their spell automatically fails but is still spent, along with their action for the turn.

Once you have access to decent magic items, keep in mind that Eternal Wands (MIC) can be used by any character capable of casting arcane spells, regardless of whether the spell it contains is on your spell list. It's best for utility spells exclusive to other class lists, like Glibness or Hound of Doom, but for a Beguiler the best spells are probably Wall of Stone (Trapsmith 3), Command Undead (only use it on mindless undead), and Sleet Storm. Also pick up some of the Raiment of the Four set pieces in MIC for access to Teleport, Fireball, and Magic Missile.

[pabelfly]

Even though you aren't really interested in going outside the Beguiler spell list, I'd still have a look at Bloodline feats. There's some magical ancestor in your ancestry, like a Fey or a Celestial or a Dragon, and that gives you an extra spell each spell level to add to your repertoire related to your particular bloodline. I think the flavour is nice, you don't have to give up Beguiler spell progression for the feat, and it gives you options if you're in a situation where a beguiler might otherwise have some difficulties.

[Anthrowhale]

Beguiler becomes less compelling at higher levels due to immunities to mind-affecting and eventually True Seeing becoming commonplace. For a NE Beguiler, picking up Mother Cyst (from Libris Mortis) allows you to keep having minions. Ideally, you pick it up by level 6 so that (with Versatile Spellcaster), you can start taking advantage of Necrotic Domination immediately. Then, at level 12 Necrotic Tumor starts giving you monster minions.

[Mescalinic]

wow, that's a lot of stuff :D


Even though you aren't really interested in going outside the Beguiler spell list, I'd still have a look at Bloodline feats.

I checked and apparently those are indeed allowed, and the Fae ones seem cool... but the DMs wrote that I must have a level of Sorcerer or Warlock to choose them... doesn't that mess up the Beguiler/ShadowAdept progression? Is it worth it? :)


What race is your character?
Human



Are you allowed to use Traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) and/or Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) from UA? The Aggressive trait gives +2 initiative for -1 AC, and each flaw you take gets you an extra feat starting out, up to two.


sadly, no Flaws allowed.

As I said, it's a "table" with focus on roleplaying and long-term stuff, AND with a lot of players, so a lot of things that can make super-optimized build or "broken" synergy are banned. So for example, that cool "Familiar" stuff is not allowed.

EDIT: i meant the hummingbird one. The "Improved Familiar - Imp" is allowed :)

A lot of feats, spells and ITEMS are not allowed...

About FEATS maybe it's more pratical if I just post the Complete List of Books that are actually allowed:

• Champions of Ruin • Champions of Valor • Complete Adventurer • Complete Arcane • Complete Divine
• Complete Mage • Complete Scoundrel • Complete Warrior • Dungeon Master's Guide • Faiths & Pantheons
• Forgotten Realms • Frostburn • Lost Empires of Faerun • Magic of Faerun • Player's Guide to Faerun
• Player's Handbooks • Player's Handbook II • Monsters Manual • Lord of Darkness • Races of the Dragon
• Races of Destiny • Races of the Wild • Races of Faerun • Races of Stone • Serpents Kingdoms • Shining South
• Stormwrack • Unapproachable East • Underdark • Waterdeep City of Splendors



The first thing you should do is check with your DM to see whether Versatile Spellcaster alone will grant you early access to the next higher level of spells, or if you'll also need Heighten Spell for that [...]


that... would be great, and although I'm 90% convinced that in this table I'm not allowed to use Versatile Spellcaster to learn spells "before" their due time, I'm definitely try and ask :D


Beguiler becomes less compelling at higher levels due to immunities to mind-affecting and eventually True Seeing becoming commonplace. For a NE Beguiler, picking up Mother Cyst (from Libris Mortis) allows you to keep having minions. Ideally, you pick it up by level 6 so that (with Versatile Spellcaster), you can start taking advantage of Necrotic Domination immediately. Then, at level 12 Necrotic Tumor starts giving you monster minions.

again, sadly all this cool stuff is from books that are not allowed :( damn, I'm still gonna check this Libris Mortis just to see what's in it

just to be clear, after your 'Channel Charge' suggestion last time, I ask the DMs and apparently in this 'tables' is very easy to buy a lot of different wands (if you have the money of course... but they also said that players get more money than usual in these 'tables') and they all come with 50 charges... so I think that at higher levels I'm gonna go with that for versatility, if I can't manage anything else

It's mostly the 'pure Beguiler+Shadow Adept' that I'd like to optimize for now...

[Anthrowhale]

Note that wands have a baked in low caster+spell level. You really need a staff to get high caster+spell level.

Versatile Spellcaster + (possibly) Heighten Spell at level 1 is pretty good advice.

Rapid Metamagic may be worth getting so you can put out two spells/round with Quicken Spell at higher level.

Shadowcraft Mage, if it's allowed via the non-gnome variant, could add quite a bit of versatility and fits well thematically.

[Ramza00]

What Level of Play are you starting at again?

[Mescalinic]

What Level of Play are you starting at again?


level 1 :)

[Mescalinic]

Note that wands have a baked in low caster+spell level. You really need a staff to get high caster+spell level.


I can get many staff too, although they're apparently quite expensive :)

(Human Shadowcraft are sadly not allowed)

[Maat Mons]

When you get to higher levels, you might want to start looking into Runesaffs (from Magic Item Compendium). For spontaneous casters, they basically amount to extra spells known, without regard to your spell list. I mean, you can only cast each spell 3/day, and each staff has a specific list of spells it gives you, and you can only use one staff on any given day. But it could still be pretty handy.



Just how keen are you on boosting your save DCs? If you keep going in Shadow Adept, you can get +3 to your save DCs for Enchantment and Illusion, but you'll lose 2 instances of Advanced Learning.

Beguiler 6 / Shadow Adept 1 / Beguiler +13

0th-level spell (character level 3)
3rd-level spell (character level 8)
5th-level spell (character level 12)
7th-level spell (character level 16)
9th-level spell (character level 20)

Beguiler 6 / Shadow Adept 9 / Beguiler +5

0th-level spell (character level 3)
7th-level spell (character level 16)
8th-level spell (character level 20)



If you decide to take more levels of Shadow Adept (or anything other than Beguiler), you should consider the Able Learner feat (from Races of Destiny). It can really help out multiclass characters with their skills.

[pabelfly]

I checked and apparently those are indeed allowed, and the Fae ones seem cool... but the DMs wrote that I must have a level of Sorcerer or Warlock to choose them... doesn't that mess up the Beguiler/ShadowAdept progression? Is it worth it? :)

I suggested bloodline feats as a way to expand your spell list without losing levels on Beguiler spellcasting. If you take a level of Sorceror or Warlock, you lose a level of Beguiler spellcasting, so I wouldn't take the Fey Bloodline feat the way your DM has ruled that they work in their game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I checked and apparently those are indeed allowed, and the Fae ones seem cool... but the DMs wrote that I must have a level of Sorcerer or Warlock to choose them... doesn't that mess up the Beguiler/ShadowAdept progression? Is it worth it? :)

Which bloodine feats are you looking at? The ones in Dragon Compendium only require spontaneous spellcasting, and they wouldn't be of any benefit to a Warlock at all.

[Karl Aegis]

You lose skill points when you go into Shadow Adept in exchange for... low-light vision and darkvision. I don't think it's worth the trouble.

The thing about Beguilers is they don't really work well with feats. Normal casters could invest into metamagic, item creation or utility feats. Beguilers get... Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar and Improved Initiative. They don't have many good spells for Metamagic or item creation. Most advice would be to add spells to their class list so they can use wands and staves of those items, but they wouldn't be able to cast from their spells per day because they aren't actually added to the beguiler's spells known, which the beguiler casts from. At least in the English print this is true.

[Mescalinic]

I suggested bloodline feats as a way to expand your spell list without losing levels on Beguiler spellcasting. If you take a level of Sorceror or Warlock, you lose a level of Beguiler spellcasting, so I wouldn't take the Fey Bloodline feat the way your DM has ruled that they work in their game.


Which bloodine feats are you looking at? The ones in Dragon Compendium only require spontaneous spellcasting, and they wouldn't be of any benefit to a Warlock at all.

I have basically a literal "Houserules Book", and some things are different, mostly about Feats... so no Bloodline for me, sadly ^^''



Just how keen are you on boosting your save DCs? If you keep going in Shadow Adept, you can get +3 to your save DCs for Enchantment and Illusion, but you'll lose 2 instances of Advanced Learning.


This if my first D&D game, and I'd definitely prefer to stuck with Beguiler, so I'm just dip one level on ShadowAdept :)







The thing about Beguilers is they don't really work well with feats. Normal casters could invest into metamagic, item creation or utility feats. Beguilers get... Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar and Improved Initiative. They don't have many good spells for Metamagic or item creation.


Meaning that I should stuck with Metamagic that, just like ShadowWeave Magic, give my Illusion and Enchantment +DC, right?

Also, at higher levels, things like Rapid Metamagic + Quicken are still good for Beguilers too... or not? :)



Most advice would be to add spells to their class list so they can use wands and staves of those items, but they wouldn't be able to cast from their spells per day because they aren't actually added to the beguiler's spells known, which the beguiler casts from. At least in the English print this is true.

I'm not sure I undestand... since I'm gonna max UMD, doesn't it mean that I could use wand even if I don't know those spells?


Also, very important... given my stats, and the bonus from ShadowWeave Magic, do you think I could give up on Focus: Illusion, and just use ShadowWeave + Heighten + Versatile (plus the Beguiler and ShadowAdept bonus at higher levels) so that I can free a couple of spots and choose something else, like Improved Initiative or even something that give me funny options, like the Familiar - Imp feats, as suggested by some of you? :)

[Vizzerdrix]

You may get a kick out of this. Their is a playable creature that is also called a beguiler, so you could be a beguiler beguiler. Later on, you can get an item that would grant the shadow template, and become a shadow beguiler shadow beguiler. :smallbiggrin:

[Mescalinic]

Their is a playable creature that is also called a beguiler, :

lol, I didn't know that.

Right now, after the advices, I'm thinking of something like:

L1- Heighten Spell - Versatile Spellcaster
L3- Shadow Weave Magic
L5- Silent Spell (Beguiler)
L6- Obtain Familiar
L7- Insidious, Pernicious & Tenacious Magic (ShadowAdept)
L9- Improved Familiar (Imp)
L10- Still Spell (Beguiler)
L12- Rapid Metamagic
L15- Quicken
L18- Improved Initiative

let's say that this table does go indeed up to level 20....

... how does it seem? should I take Improved Initiative sooner?
is Heighten Spell useless before level 6? in that case I could take Shadow Weave Magic at Level 1... :)

[Anthrowhale]

Right now, after the advices, I'm thinking of something like:

Improved Initiative sooner is tempting. Do you know that access to Heighten Spell makes a difference in whether or not you can cast spells from your 2nd level list at 1st level? If not, Improved Initiative at level 1 leaves you at +8 to initiative checks which pretty good at level 1.

[Mescalinic]

Improved Initiative sooner is tempting. Do you know that access to Heighten Spell makes a difference in whether or not you can cast spells from your 2nd level list at 1st level? If not, Improved Initiative at level 1 leaves you at +8 to initiative checks which pretty good at level 1.

perfect... I'm waiting for the DMs' answer, SO if they allow that stuff with Heighten + Versatile, I go with Heigten al LV1

if it is NOT allowed, then I go with Improved Initiative at level 1, and take Heighten at level 3, 6 or 9...

then I decide if I have to lose the Familiar feats or just postpone Quicken to LV18

sounds right? :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can probably get a Circlet of Rapid Casting from Magic Item Compendium much earlier than Quicken Spell would be useful. That makes three spells per day of up to 2nd level a swift action to cast, or higher level spells for fewer daily uses. If you're worried about that replacing a Headband of Intellect, you can add an enhancement bonus to Int onto that for the same price as a separate headband of the same bonus per MIC p234.

[Mescalinic]

Improved Initiative sooner is tempting. Do you know that access to Heighten Spell makes a difference in whether or not you can cast spells from your 2nd level list at 1st level? If not, Improved Initiative at level 1 leaves you at +8 to initiative checks which pretty good at level 1.

in the end, I was not allowed to do the Heighten+Versatile "trick", so I choose Improved Initiative and Versatile Spellcaster at LV1.

now I'm buying the first equipment, and I don't understand a detail... in a couple levels, should I keep my hands "free", so I can "spider climb" easily to go away from 'melee' situations, or should I use something?

at level 1, should I just buy a light crossbow, a rapier, or nothing at all? :smallredface:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get a chain shirt, you can cast spells in light armor without penalty. Get a mundane melee and ranged weapon just in case you need them, you don't need to have them out unless you need to. Consider getting a spiked gauntlet, you're considered armed but the hand is still free to do other things as needed. Don't forget a spell component pouch.

Get a shortbow, later get a (masterwork) Elvencraft bow in Races of the Wild which can also be used as a club (shortbow) or quarterstaff (longbow). Each weapon portion needs to be made masterwork separately, and get as many wand chambers (Dungeonscape) as possible added to it, you should be able to get one per weapon portion.

Eventually you'll want to get a +1 Mithral Buckler. It has no armor check penalty so there's no drawback for not being proficient, there's no arcane spell failure chance, and you can use the hand for anything else as needed and you'll just lose the shield bonus for that round.

[Ramza00]

You may get a kick out of this. Their is a playable creature that is also called a beguiler, so you could be a beguiler beguiler. Later on, you can get an item that would grant the shadow template, and become a shadow beguiler shadow beguiler. :smallbiggrin:


lol, I didn't know that.

Yes the creature looks like a pokemon electric rat, but since flavor is forever mutable if your DM allows the race reflavor it as a black cat. :smallwink:

A black cat with a tale that can manipulate things like a human hand, and a bonus to hide and climb. Plus True Seeing (which you DM should remove and instead just give LLV, Darkvision that the creature already gets.)