Gestalt characters

[HamsterKun]

How would you work out gestalt characters for 5th Edition? It’s not an easy task to balance out being Lv20 in TWO classes, but hey, it came from 3.5e UA to begin with.

[Randomthom]

Honestly, it's mostly pretty straightforward.
If both classes have the same ability then you don't gain it twice (i.e. Barbarian/Fighter Gestalt doesn't gain two extra attacks at level 5 but does gain the 2nd extra attack at level 11 because the fighter gets that.)
If both classes have different abilities then you gain them both (e.g. a Rogue/Wizard gains both sneak attack and spellcasting at first level).
If both classes have different abilities based around the same mechanic you gain the "better" ability (e.g. A Rogue/Wizard would use a d8 hit dice).

Some class features are problematic still, especially spellcasting. You might find it simplest to restrict your players to just using one spellcasting class.

If you don't want to restrict in that way then things get messy fast. Do you allow them to prepare two spell lists, one for each class or do they prepare a single list? Does a Sorcerer/Wizard fix their allocation of sorcerer spells but can then be flexible with the rest? (i.e. a 20th level Sorc/Wiz with 20 Int would have 25 Wizard Spells prepared but 15 Sorcerer Spells known. Should this be 15 Sorcerer Spells known and 10 Wizard spells prepared or 40 spells prepared total?)

Skills at first level should probably be done by the higher number from either list. (e.g. A Rogue/Paladin would choose 4 skills (as a rogue can) from Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Medicine*, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Religion*, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth. Skills denoted * are from the Paladin skill choice list only)

Saving Throws are trickier to decide which is "better" and proficiency in 4 saves is a bit much, I'd be inclined to allow the player to pick 3 from the 2 classes.

Only one background gets chosen still so that's simple.

[TyGuy]

How would you work out gestalt characters for 5th Edition? It’s not an easy task to balance out being Lv20 in TWO classes, but hey, it came from 3.5e UA to begin with.

Depends on why gestalt is being used. If it's for a small table of 2-3 PCs then letting things get really strong isn't as much of a concern because players are still limited by action economy. If it's a normal or large party size, then I'd take a more restrictive approach.

For a small table "OP" approach I like the following:

One side is the 'primary' class and is locked 1-20 while the other half is open to multiclassing.
If a reasonable argument can be made, then the casting ability can be changed. E.g. pious paladin Cha -> Wis for paladin-cleric or a pact made with research warlock Cha -> Int for wizard-warlock.
Save proficiencies: pick 1 major from either and 1 minor from either.
Skill proficiencies: the greater number of the starting class's +1. E.g. ranger-fighter is 4, [3(ranger) + 1]. Choose from either list.
Armor, weapon, language, tool proficiencies: use both class's
Hit die & level up HP: use highest of the two.
ASI: at the 4,8,12,16,19 breakpoints take one feat and a +2 ASI but not two feats or two ASI. Fighter and rogue special ASI at 6,10,14 can be either.
Spell slots: consider each side individually and then combine. E.g. 5wizard-5sorcerer has (8) 1st, (6) 2nd, (4) 3rd; or a 6ranger-4paladin/2cleric has (8) 1st, (5) 2nd.
Repeat features: For passive features, e.g. both classes have multiple attack or evasion; gain the feature and DM picks/creates a lesser feat appropriate for replacing the duplicate feature. For something like channel divinity, combine both number of uses; e.g. 6paladin-6cleric has 3 uses of channel divinity.

[HamsterKun]

If you don't want to restrict in that way then things get messy fast. Do you allow them to prepare two spell lists, one for each class or do they prepare a single list? Does a Sorcerer/Wizard fix their allocation of sorcerer spells but can then be flexible with the rest? (i.e. a 20th level Sorc/Wiz with 20 Int would have 25 Wizard Spells prepared but 15 Sorcerer Spells known. Should this be 15 Sorcerer Spells known and 10 Wizard spells prepared or 40 spells prepared total?)

Saving Throws are trickier to decide which is "better" and proficiency in 4 saves is a bit much, I'd be inclined to allow the player to pick 3 from the 2 classes.


First of all, I would say that they have access to all the spells given from both classes, but only get spell slots from the higher caster progression. For example, a Cleric/Paladin gestalt would use the Cleric’s spell slot progression, but it can be used on both Cleric AND Paladin spells.

Second of all, no multiclassing. It’d be too hard to balance.

[TyGuy]

You keep mentioning balance.

Gestalt is for making extra epic characters for otherwise overtuned encounters and/or versatile characters for covering more bases with small parties. If balance for standard play is what you want, you're barking up the wrong tree. If you're just interested in more character options, you're better off with homebrewing options

[Clistenes]

You keep mentioning balance.

Gestalt is for making extra epic characters for otherwise overtuned encounters and/or versatile characters for covering more bases with small parties. If balance for standard play is what you want, you're barking up the wrong tree. If you're just interested in more character options, you're better off with homebrewing options

I dunno... if you need twice as much xp as a regular character in order to level up, your character will always be 1-4 levels behind single-classed characters...

[Nhorianscum]

Normal multi-classing rules. 1.5x exp/level compared to normal progression. No additional multi's

If you want to limit this more for standard play just dial the exp to 2x normal.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You keep mentioning balance.

Gestalt is for making extra epic characters for otherwise overtuned encounters and/or versatile characters for covering more bases with small parties. If balance for standard play is what you want, you're barking up the wrong tree. If you're just interested in more character options, you're better off with homebrewing options
What's important isn't gestalt-vs-non-gestalt balance, but balance between gestalt A//B and gestalt C//D. You want to make sure that all your players are at comparable power levels.

I've played around with gestalt a bit, and I'm thinking that the most dangerous option is Rogue. Sneak Attack and Extra Attack fill the same niche ("at-will damage"), but they stack. A caster//caster only gets one set of spell slots and one concentration slot, no matter how many spells they know; a martial//caster still has to choose between casting a spell and swinging a sword, but a rogue//martial gets to combine Sneak Attack and Extra Attack in the same action.

[Cybren]

What's important isn't gestalt-vs-non-gestalt balance, but balance between gestalt A//B and gestalt C//D. You want to make sure that all your players are at comparable power levels.

I've played around with gestalt a bit, and I'm thinking that the most dangerous option is Rogue. Sneak Attack and Extra Attack fill the same niche ("at-will damage"), but they stack. A caster//caster only gets one set of spell slots and one concentration slot, no matter how many spells they know; a martial//caster still has to choose between casting a spell and swinging a sword, but a rogue//martial gets to combine Sneak Attack and Extra Attack in the same action.

If your gestalt rules are doing what I think is sensible, and as you said, only allowing one set of slots to stack, you still get "extra" spell slots via combining spell slot recovery features from different classes, and, more importantly, Mystic Arcanum, which would mean any Warlock/Full Caster gestalt essentially doubles their higher level slots.

I've always joked about wanting to play a Champion//Thief gestalt because they'd be THE BEST at jumping with Second Story Work and Remarkable Athlete, but more seriously, sneak attack, extra attack, and an expanded crit range WOULD be pretty cool. I just don't know that that, for example, is more powerful than a Paladin//Sorcerer, Warlock//Bard, EK//Wizard, etc.

[HamsterKun]

You keep mentioning balance.

Gestalt is for making extra epic characters for otherwise overtuned encounters and/or versatile characters for covering more bases with small parties. If balance for standard play is what you want, you're barking up the wrong tree. If you're just interested in more character options, you're better off with homebrewing options

I see. Well, the idea came from another forum where they were talking about an isekai campaign, and how it’s a cliché for the guy from OUR world to be OP in some shape or form. Touya from In Another World With My Smartphone, the four heroes from Rising of the Shield Hero, etc.

Well, one of the guys suggested making them a gestalt character; the reason I was trying to figure out how to “balance” it is to avoid a campaign where the Earthling becomes a Mary Sue.

That’s not to say a Mary Sue NEEDS story-breaking powers to be classified as such, she can be the weakest member of the party but everyone absolutely adores and admires her.

[YugiSyta]

So I made my own kind of gestalt, instead of two classes a player gets two subclasses. IE a champion/battlemaster fighter, a way of the shadows/open hand monk etc. It makes dipping a bit more powerful for multiclassing and certain class builds a little stronger , but due to action economy it hasn't completely broken my game.

[HamsterKun]

So I made my own kind of gestalt, instead of two classes a player gets two subclasses. IE a champion/battlemaster fighter, a way of the shadows/open hand monk etc. It makes dipping a bit more powerful for multiclassing and certain class builds a little stronger , but due to action economy it hasn't completely broken my game.

Here's the question: does multiclassing this sort of gestalt have where you can choose two subclasses per each class, or only the primary class?