Hit Die: Reinventing a wheel that isn't broken

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Ok it's 3 in the morning and this is keeping me up at night. I'm thinking about Hit-Die. It's fine. I understand why your Hit-dice are tied to your class, it's a good design and it makes thematic sense. But then I think about my Dwarf Wizard. Dwarves are famously tough so why is he able to take as many hits as a tiny 400 year old Gnome wizard?

So what if you got two numbers, one from your race and one from your class, you add those numbers and that gives you your Hit-Die.

Races are divided by Slight (2), average (4), and stout (6). Classes are divided into Learned (4) and Conditioned (6).

As three examples a Gnome is Slight, a Human is Average, and a Half-orc is Stout.

Soooo, a Gnome Wizard rolls a d6, a Human Wizard rolls a d8, and an Orc Wizard rolls a d10.

A Gnome Fighter rolls a d8, a Human Fighter rolls a d10, an Orc Fighter rolls a d12.

Slight races gain proficiency in a Dexterity Skill, Stout Races gain proficiency in a Strength Skill, and Average races gain a choice of a Strength or a Dexterity Skill.
......................................
From the PHB: Races
Human, Average
Tiefling, Average
Half-elf, Average
Elf, Slight
Gnome, Slight
Halfling, Slight (Stout haflings are Average)
Dwarf, Stout
Half-Orc, Stout
DragonBorn, Stout

Classes
Wizard, Learned
Druid, Learned
Cleric, Learned (if your domain grants heavy armor proficiency your, then it becomes Conditioned)
Bard, Learned (if you choose the Valor Bard subclass, your hit-die becomes Conditioned going forward*)
Sorcerer, Learned
Warlock, Learned

Fighter, Conditioned
Barbarian, Conditioned
Ranger, Conditioned
Paladin, Conditioned
Monk, Conditioned
Rouge, Conditioned

*as an example, a level 6 Human Valor Bard's Hit-dice pool would be 2 d8 and 3 d10. He would have 27+(Con Mod × 6) hit points.

..................................

Cons:
This obviously adds needless complexity and kind of goes against the streamlined philosophy of 5e.
It probably needs to be monitored closely to make sure it is balanced.
It just kind of sucks to be Slight, and they need some kind of Buff (maybe a bonus to AC?) to make the loss of HP worth it, let's brain storm on that.
Rouge's can have a d12 Hit-dice now. Oops.
I'm sure their are other Cons my exhausted brain is overlooking.

Pros:
It softens the blow of suboptimal Race/Class combinations. Your Wizard Orc may not be as potent as a Gnome Wizard, but he can take more hits.
It adds complexity. Some people like complexity, especially if they are more experienced with the game.
It makes for a more diverse party and unique builds.
It could be used to make races with similar stats bonuses feel unique to one another.
Race/class synergy remains mostly unchanged.

I think you'd have to use Point Buy or Standard Array for this system to work. If you roll an 18 for stats, their is no reason not to be a Dwarf Wizard after all.

So what do you guys think, wanna help me tweak this, or at least talk me down from the ledge here? All insight and criticism is welcome.

[MoiMagnus]

I didn't try PathfinderV2, but they have a nice feature which is that level 1 hit points are determined by your race (sorry, I mean your ancestry), and by your class: you essentially have one hit dice from each.

Sure, it does not increase "per-level HP", but there is already something that exists for that: Constitution. Race with bonus to constitution have more HP. Races that don't have bonuses have less HP.
If you feel there is not enough differences between races, just add a bonus/malus to Constitution for each race, and you will obtain what you're aiming for without having to add an additional system. (If you really want to, you can even allow races with bonus to go above 20, and cap races with malus to something lesser than 20)

And how to balance that? Just give other stat bonuses.
Examples:
+Gnome get Dex+1 Int+1 Con-2. (on top of other modifiers)
+Orcs get Int-1 Cha-1 Con+2. (on top of other modifiers)
+Etc.

[opaopajr]

Well, if it makes you happy, sure! :smallsmile: In fact, there are a lot of point-buy games that do make such distinctions already. Maybe you would be better served by exploring what else is out there to feed your suspension of disbelief. :smalltongue: Many of us have been there with our system dissatisfaction, but many of us return after finding out the grass isn't greener on the other more complex side. :smallcool:

(Elves should be Slight, by the way. They are already loaded for bear with racial benefits. :smallwink: They have pretty much over-shadowed similar stat-bonus races, in D&D Beyond character builder stats.)

[PeteNutButter]

Seems to me like a racial con boost that isn't a con boost. I'd recommend using existing game rules over a new one wherever possible. If you think orcs should get even more hp than the +1 racial con, then homebrew the races. Note that Hill dwarves already get this as their racial ability (in addition to their +2 con).

On the slight side, if we're adding complexity, I'm of the opinion that small creatures should definitely get a con/hp penalty. Size is very important in real life. Real life weight classes are a 7 lb spread, such that competitive sports consider it an unfair advantage if you weigh 8 lbs more than your opponent. EIGHT pounds. How much does a halfling weigh?

[Whiskeyjack8044]

The only problem with just giving them a Con boost is that affects concentration. If our Orc Wizard has more HP AND never loses concentration then he's a way better choice than a Gnome Wizard.

How do we feel about giving Slight Races a +2 to AC? Is that too strong? Would a +1 to AC be enough to offset the loss of HP?

[Contrast]

It softens the blow of suboptimal Race/Class combinations. Your Wizard Orc may not be as potent as a Gnome Wizard, but he can take more hits.

However a halfling/gnome barbarian now has a d8 instead of a d12 which substantially worsens a suboptimal class/race combination. That said you may consider this a bonus as the main point of your proposal seems to be to emphasise racial differences in hit point?

I would agree with comments above that this is probably more simply addressed by something similar to the Hill Dwarf/Dragon Sorc features which give you bonus HP per level and just spreading that out a bit more.


I was also amused when you mentioned stout races getting 'a Strength Skill'. Athletics then. :smalltongue:

[Karnitis]

So, as a person who loves uniqueness, I like this system. I feel like it's realistic that an orc should be, as a fact, always tougher than a gnome (regardless of CON). If I live in a world where bears have human-level intellect, it doesn't matter that I'm a lumberjack-class and he's an IT-class. The bear will be tougher than me. To illustrate:
Gnome Barbarian, let's say CON no lower than 14. He gets 9 (avg 7+2) health per level up.
Orc Wizard, let's say maxed out CON. He gets 9 (avg 4 + 5) health per level up.

So a half-decent barbarian will ALWAYS be better than a maxed wizard, because of their chosen career. Not that I'm complaining really, like OP I agree the system isn't a broken wheel. However, using the allusion above, a genetic predisposition can outweigh lifelong condition (see: Bears beat battlestar galactica).

If I had enough friends who were open to homebrew and wouldn't try to break the system (d12 for rogues) I would implement this. All that being said....the other posters are right. Namely, not just CON but DEX.

Orcs get a CON boost and Gnomes get a dex boost. It all balances because orcs can get hit more and live, but gnomes are more nimble and last equally long. Hit points are more from physical conditioning, which is why anyone can train or not-train. CON/DEX are balanced from small to big races.

[MoiMagnus]

I feel like it's realistic that an orc should be, as a fact, always tougher than a gnome (regardless of CON).

I strongly disagree with this "fact". Specifically the "regardless of CON".

For me, Constitution is the part the reflect the hit points you have genetically (or magically), and hit dices size reflect the hit points you have from training and experience. That why races influence the Con, while classes influence the hit dice.

(By level up, you gain hit dices as you gain experience. You can also improve your Con, but its much more rare, and you could even consider it as supernatural)

So if there was a fact like that, if should be "I feel like it's realistic that an orc should always have more Con than a gnome".

[Bigmouth]

10th level gnome wizard 14 con 62 HP
10th level Hill Dwarf wizard 16 Con 82 HP
They both put the same stat in Con, the dwarf has 20 more HP at level 10. Doesn't seem insignificant.
Also, the system being proposed would be a huge nerf to Barbarians, Fighters and Rangers. Monks, Rogues, and Valor bards are suddenly just as tough as they are.
Do races that already have con bonuses stack them on top of the stout bonus?
So 10th level human barbarian 84 HP 10th level Hill Dwarf Mage 104 HP (assuming neither boosted their base 14 con. Barb increases STR and Mage increases INT)

It seems horribly broken to me, but if everyone knew about it going into a campaign I suppose there are worst home-brew rules out there. The all fatty campaign.

[AdAstra]

There's a big issue with this both in terms of theme and in mechanics. To be even remotely balanced, if the game makes it such that an Orc is always stronger/tougher than a gnome, no matter how the stats go, the same should apply the other way. A gnome would always have to be smarter than any Orc. After all, if I can be both smarter AND tougher, why would I ever choose not to be? Why can a bear have the intellect of a human, but a human can't have the strength or toughness of a bear, to use another example from this thread? The problem with this, of course, is that races end up pigeonholed mechanically as well as thematically. As is, there are inherent issues with attaching ability scores to race in that some class/race combos are pretty much inherently better than others. Amplifying that would make it not only suboptimal, but actively detrimental to your character to not play a race "suited" to an appropriate class. Maybe this could even be appropriate in a system that allowed things like using mental ability scores to attack and defend, to alleviate the issues of small races being unable to stand up in a fight. But then you run the risk of ability scores being essentially interchangeable, and of course, for the most part, 5e does not allow you to do this.

The game already puts it's hand on the scales by having certain races being better at certain things, I see no reason to tip it further.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

To me Dex and Con are unique. They are inherited as part of their physical make up. Other Stats I think are more cultural. A Gnome isn't inherently more intelligent than a dwarf, Gnome culture just values and encourages intelligence more to most Gnomes grow up with a predisposition for Int.

An example: Both Mountain Dwarves and Hill Dwarves get pluses to Con because Dwarves are inherently tough, but Mountain Dwarves get pluses to Strength because they value Strength and combat culturally, whereas Hill Dwarves get pluses to Wis because they value intuition culturally.

Keep in mind also that a Barbarian Halfling with a Strength of 24 still can't wield Heavy weapons, so the precedent for having race determine capability outside of stats is already established.

I guess what I really want is for Race choices to have a bigger impact, but also give you a mechanical justification for suboptimal builds. Yeah, your Halfling Barbarian won't have as many hit points, but with his shield, his + 2 to AC from his Slight build, and his Unarmored Defense, he's going to be hard as hell to hit (and when you do hit him he takes half damage). Instead of just being objectively worse when you pick a suboptimal build, you just use unique tactics that play to your unique assets. I wanna see Orc Mages on the front line and I want to see Gnome fighters zipping across the battlefield ducking and weaving.

I only think of Dex and Con as inherent, and all other stats as cultural. So what if it was something like: Dwarf, +2 Con +1 Cultural or Gnome +2 Cultural + 1 Dex. How much Dex or Con they are born with is determined by their race, but their other traits are determined by the culture they subscribed to. Maybe that Gnome doesn't care about learning and what's to charm the ladies? Put that +2 into Charisma. Maybe that Dwarf likes to lift, put that +1 into Strength.

Bluuurg at this point I'm proposing an entire new system for character creation. End of manifesto.