AT/EK Multiclass Thought-experiment.

[Talsin]

A thread about making a Fighter/Rogue Multiclass got me thinking; what kind of mix would you consider if you were planning on taking an Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster multiclass?

Things to consider? Difficulty with Action Economy? It seems pretty evident that a DEX build would be less MAD, but what would your preferred array be?
What spells would you want to blend from picking these classes? Which breakpoints?

I'm curious how you might build this.

[Arkhios]

I'd personally take advantage of being able to wear as heavy armor as possible, and lean towards having high Strength and Intelligence scores, if for nothing else, for shi*s and giggles.

If I were to play a character whose gimmick is to mix both 1/3-casters, I'd rely much more on magic with my ranged attacks (and otherwise). Therefore, higher intelligence than usual for either classes would be my approach. If I'd ever end up in a situation where magic won't work, for whatever reason, well... More time in the spotlight for the other characters! It's not a bad thing to have things you're not good at. In fact, it gets boring for the others if you're always best at (almost) everything.

As for the level split, I think I would go with a 50:50 split, taking them as far as 9th level in both classes, and fill the two missing levels with War Mage.

[Talsin]

I'd personally take advantage of being able to wear as heavy armor as possible, and lean towards having high Strength and Intelligence scores, if for nothing else, for shi*s and giggles.

If I were to play a character whose gimmick is to mix both 1/3-casters, I'd rely much more on magic with my ranged attacks (and otherwise). Therefore, higher intelligence than usual for either classes would be my approach. If I'd ever end up in a situation where magic won't work, for whatever reason, well... More time in the spotlight for the other characters! It's not a bad thing to have things you're not good at. In fact, it gets boring for the others if you're always best at (almost) everything.

As for the level split, I think I would go with a 50:50 split, taking them as far as 9th level in both classes, and fill the two missing levels with War Mage.

Hmm, I would have considered taking at least 10th level in Rogue for the 6th ASI. The 10th level in Fighter would let your spells be more likely to hit, which may be important for slot economy, since at level 20 your still only packing 1 4th level spell and 10 others of lower level. then again, 11 in Rogue would get reliable talent, which would be nice to shore up any deficiencies in skills...

How would you set up the leveling? all on one side, then to the other, or mix them as you go?

[Keravath]

Hmm, I would have considered taking at least 10th level in Rogue for the 6th ASI. The 10th level in Fighter would let your spells be more likely to hit, which may be important for slot economy, since at level 20 your still only packing 1 4th level spell and 10 others of lower level. then again, 11 in Rogue would get reliable talent, which would be nice to shore up any deficiencies in skills...

How would you set up the leveling? all on one side, then to the other, or mix them as you go?

Keep in mind that the multiclassing spellcasting rules take the total EK and AT levels and divide by 3 and round down to get the corresponding caster level. As a result a 10/10 EK/AT is a 6th level caster and won't have 4th level spells anyway while the printed spell casting tables for the EK and AT actually round up so a Level 20 EK or AT has the spell slots of a 7th level caster.

As for splitting levels in a fighter rogue, almost anything will work. If you go for an even'ish split the EK/AT will only have second level spells known with some 3rd level slots. EK or AT don't get 3rd level spells until 13th level. A 10/10 split will know 14 spells with 6 cantrips.

Level 11 fighter/9 rogue gets 3 attacks and 5d6 sneak attack
Level 11 rogue/9 fighter gets reliable talent and 6d6 sneak attack

Going strength fighter, dumping dex, wearing heavy armor gives a decent AC but the character is bad at all the tradition rogue skills so at least thematically, I would lean toward a dex build that is good at both ranged and melee wearing medium or light armor.

Anyway, fighter/rogue has a lot of level splits that work well depending on what you want out of the character.
3 fighter/17 rogue for archetype/fighting style/action surge
6 fighter/14 rogue for the extra feat
5 fighter/15 rogue for wis saves
8 fighter/12 rogue for maximum feats
9 fighter/11 rogue for reliable talent
11 fighter/9 rogue for 3 attacks
14 fighter/6 rogue for additional expertise
17 fighter/3 rogue for expertise/skill/cunning action/archetype

[Talsin]

Keep in mind that the multiclassing spellcasting rules take the total EK and AT levels and divide by 3 and round down to get the corresponding caster level. As a result a 10/10 EK/AT is a 6th level caster and won't have 4th level spells anyway while the printed spell casting tables for the EK and AT actually round up so a Level 20 EK or AT has the spell slots of a 7th level caster.

As for splitting levels in a fighter rogue, almost anything will work. If you go for an even'ish split the EK/AT will only have second level spells known with some 3rd level slots. EK or AT don't get 3rd level spells until 13th level. A 10/10 split will know 14 spells with 6 cantrips.

Level 11 fighter/9 rogue gets 3 attacks and 5d6 sneak attack
Level 11 rogue/9 fighter gets reliable talent and 6d6 sneak attack

Going strength fighter, dumping dex, wearing heavy armor gives a decent AC but the character is bad at all the tradition rogue skills so at least thematically, I would lean toward a dex build that is good at both ranged and melee wearing medium or light armor.

Anyway, fighter/rogue has a lot of level splits that work well depending on what you want out of the character.
3 fighter/17 rogue for archetype/fighting style/action surge
6 fighter/14 rogue for the extra feat
5 fighter/15 rogue for wis saves
8 fighter/12 rogue for maximum feats
9 fighter/11 rogue for reliable talent
11 fighter/9 rogue for 3 attacks
14 fighter/6 rogue for additional expertise
17 fighter/3 rogue for expertise/skill/cunning action/archetype

I hadn't thought about how the spell-level would shift like that. I had kinda assumed it would just be the same chart from the subclass, but I guess it makes sense to ACTUALLY USE the multiclass table ._.

Given that limitation, it does make having an even-split build less attractive since you wouldn't get access to 3rd level spells. However, it would leave Invisibility open, as well as Hold Person or Blindness/Deafness. Hmm...

I guess another way to phrase the question is now: What can you do with a 6th level spellcaster with casting limitations and other things to do with their turn?

[SLOTHRPG95]

I'd second a two-level dip in Wizard, but personally I think Diviner is the best pick for this sort of thing. Get a guaranteed crit on one of your sneak attacks if you roll a 20 on your portent, or a pretty much auto-success on a skill check/save if you roll high but not a 20, or cause a monster to blow its saving throw against one of your spells if you rolled low.

I think going Dex-based is ideal for being less MAD, and also initiative is nice. If you go something like EK 3/AT 15/Div 2, you're getting basically all the rogue goodies, plus action surge, a combat style, and slightly better/more diverse spellcasting. This build plays pretty much the same as a single-classed AT. If you go EK 5/AT 13/Div 2, you're still getting Versatile Trickster, but the Extra Attack means you don't have to worry (as much) about rolling low and just plain doing no damage instead of massive sneak attack damage (which can happen even w/ advantage). Besides that, it still mostly plays the same as a single-class AT. I'd argue that going heavy on the EK and small on the AT is less useful, since once you have 3+ attacks per round, adding a handful of d6s to only one of them isn't going to have a huge impact on your damage output. If you wanted the extra utility on an EK, more levels in Diviner (or another sort of Wizard) is a better investment, IMO.

[ZenBear]

I’m a strong advocate of the EK 10 breakpoint. You get Eldritch Strike to make your spells land better, and you leave before Extra Attack 2 invalidates War Magic. AT 10 gets you Ambush and the ASI. Your foes will always have disadvantage on saving throws against your spells if you play your cards right.

[Particle_Man]

Would you advice alternating classes one by one? Or taking three of EK, three of AT, etc.? In what order would one take the classes?

[Amechra]

Would you advice alternating classes one by one? Or taking three of EK, three of AT, etc.? In what order would one take the classes?

I'd personally go for Extra Attack as soon as possible.

One other thing to consider is that whichever class you push until later will be able to take higher level spells after you take 3 levels in it, since the highest slot you have available is based off your total level. So your EK 5/AT 4 (to give a probably bad example) could pick up 2nd level "AT spells" immediately.

[J-H]

I am running a Castlevania dungeon-crawl game, and one of my players just leveled to Rogue (AT) 3/Fighter 2. He's been doing a lot of climbing, hiding, and sneak-attacking, including dual-wielding and using a whip some. Given that the game will run to somewhere around level 11-13, what's the most optimized split on his levels, and what is he going to be doing?

[SLOTHRPG95]

Would you advice alternating classes one by one? Or taking three of EK, three of AT, etc.? In what order would one take the classes?

Alternating classes in 5e really messes with key level breaks, and the pace at which you get your ASIs. I'd either start three in EK, then three in AT, or otherwise five in EK, three in AT. I'd then follow that up with two levels of Wizard (I mention Diviner above, someone else mentions War Wizard). After that, I'd go AT the rest of the way.

[ThePolarBear]

since the highest slot you have available

"As a single classed memeber of that class".

A 4th level AT or 5th level EK doesn't have 2nd level spell slots, and neither does a 6th level member of either classes.

[PeteNutButter]

1/3rd casters are pretty bare bones when it comes to actual casting. Start mixing them and it gets even worse, due to the multiclassing chart. Your spells will almost never be better than attacking. What makes these classes viable or even good is the attack cantrips and shield spell. By doubling up on the classes, you are giving yourself redundant features with little actual benefit, while also slowing your spell progression even further. You'd be better served by going EK with a different rogue or potentially vice versa.

Regardless the optimal level spreads are probably 11/9 EK/Rogue, or if you want more useful spells (Haste) 13/7 or 15/5. Leaving fighter right before a huge feature that gives you 50% more attacks is just silly. War Magic isn't all that great when you can use that bonus action for cunning action or other useful things. I'd aim for extra attack first, then pick up some rogue levels (1-5), then grab fighter 11.

[Arkhios]

Hmm, I would have considered taking at least 10th level in Rogue for the 6th ASI. The 10th level in Fighter would let your spells be more likely to hit, which may be important for slot economy, since at level 20 your still only packing 1 4th level spell and 10 others of lower level. then again, 11 in Rogue would get reliable talent, which would be nice to shore up any deficiencies in skills...

How would you set up the leveling? all on one side, then to the other, or mix them as you go?

Sure, you could do that. However, the way multiclassing works in regards to spellcasting classes, I'd really prefer to take my fighter and rogue levels at increments of 3 as far as possible, and when it's not possible anymore, fill in with a full spellcasting class (in which case, Wizard is the best option by far). Especially because by multiclassing with those (sub)classes, you're already sacrificing a lot of your spellcasting potential by not being single-classed in either one. Spells Known and Spell Slots progress separately when you multiclass, which hurts a lot. Thus, I'd take advantage of at least getting similar amount of spell slots, even if it means you're only ever going to know up to 2nd level spells. At least you can up-cast spells from those levels with up to 4th level slots (as if you were an 8th level caster in that regard).

Also, the way how classes progress, I'd mix them as I go, but not at 50:50 ratio. Rather, I'd aim for specific goals before switching to other class.

For example, Extra Attack is one of the biggest things from Fighter and I'd definitely level fighter straight from 1st to 5th level before going into Rogue at all. When taking Rogue levels, I'd take at least 3 levels before continuing leveling in Fighter. Then, there's the Ability Score increases to consider, because you get them at levels dictated by your class level, rather than your character's total level.

[Talsin]

So, what I'm getting so far is that a multiclass of both EK & AT leads to a couple different options depending on which class you focus more on. A 50-50 split seems to lean more heavily into the AT realm with Eldritch Strike leaving openings for save-or-suck spells. It also seems like having this mix is a great way to hamper your own abilities. Most people seem to agree that the best thing is really to split with wizard for greater magic benefits.

[Bobthewizard]

I am running a Castlevania dungeon-crawl game, and one of my players just leveled to Rogue (AT) 3/Fighter 2. He's been doing a lot of climbing, hiding, and sneak-attacking, including dual-wielding and using a whip some. Given that the game will run to somewhere around level 11-13, what's the most optimized split on his levels, and what is he going to be doing?

I'd either go Rogue the rest of the way using fighter for just armor, fighting style and action surge, or go battlemaster 5, then Rogue 4 for the ASI, 4th spell known and 3rd spell slot, then back to fighter for the rest. I wouldn't double up spellcasting from the EK and AT, but would instead add another option with battlemaster maneuvers.