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Forrester
2007-10-09, 10:24 PM
(I believe Redcloak would approve.)

www.goblindefensefund.org

Because a goblin is a terrible thing to waste.

SIGN THE PETITION!

Pronounceable
2007-10-10, 02:15 AM
SIGN THE PETITION!

QFT.

And even if you don't, still go read the history.

averagejoe
2007-10-10, 02:22 AM
Tell me, what stance do most goblins take toward the undead?

Starsinger
2007-10-10, 03:29 AM
D&D's always suffered under "It's green! Kill it!" hopefully this stops.

Lord Zentei
2007-10-10, 04:16 AM
D&D's always suffered under "It's green! Kill it!" hopefully this stops.

Aye, at least for such creatures that have free will and are not intrinsically evil.

And that page is hilarious -- and so sadly true. I've had my fair share of players who go around killing goblin noncombatants for **** and giggles. Some of the players, to their credit looked a damn sight uncomfortable while their peers were at it.

KIDS
2007-10-10, 04:53 AM
Signed.

p.s. I am a fan of elves, but I love goblins nevertheless. I hope the petition is successful and oh, great work on the website. Your effort is appreciated :)

Xuincherguixe
2007-10-10, 05:43 AM
I like Goblins, and Orcs. If they're going to be an evil race, they should at least have some level of dignity. And be able to kill some Elves and Dwarves.

If you really need things to be evil, those particular green skinned people are jerks, but other tribes might drop the weapons if the adventurers attempt diplomacy (being so used to getting attacked by the pinkies).

Subotei
2007-10-10, 06:26 AM
Fantastic site - fight the power!

SoD
2007-10-10, 06:41 AM
If it's green and has fangs...sit down at a table and talk about its feelings.

Viva la Goblin!

Kurald Galain
2007-10-10, 07:16 AM
They missed these goblins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobliiins).

Anyway, at this point, I don't think we need a Goblin defense fund as much as we need an Azurian defense fund.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-10, 07:54 AM
Impressive, I must applaud the creator's of that site.

Personally I don't mind the filth and the smell, the texture of the soft flesh and the crunchy bones more than makes up for that. If they had been a tad more colourful they would make a perfect meal.

Dubie
2007-10-10, 09:10 AM
I love the comparison of combat tactics...

"The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society. They favor ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise . . . goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them.”



“Elves are cautious warriors . . . maximizing their advantage by using ambushes, snipers, and camouflage. They prefer to fire from cover and retreat before they are found, repeating this maneuver until all of their enemies are dead.”


Its amazing, now that you look at it, how one can basicly take the exact same tactic, write it two different ways, and make one sound like cowardly swine, and the other to be graceful, tactical warriors...

Morty
2007-10-10, 09:18 AM
Hilarious.:smallbiggrin: Comparision of battle tactics is indeed accurate.

Prophaniti
2007-10-10, 09:48 AM
D&D's always suffered under "It's green! Kill it!" hopefully this stops.

But in the early versions of D&D, Goblins were never green. They were dull yellow or red. So, it was probably more of a "It's not a playable race! Kill it!" mentality.

Lord Zentei
2007-10-10, 10:00 AM
Its amazing, now that you look at it, how one can basicly take the exact same tactic, write it two different ways, and make one sound like cowardly swine, and the other to be graceful, tactical warriors...

It's all about having the right PR agents and press spokespeople. :smallwink:


But in the early versions of D&D, Goblins were never green. They were dull yellow or red. So, it was probably more of a "It's not a playable race! Kill it!" mentality.

They are still yellow and red (though the stickverse gobbos are green).

Forrester
2007-10-10, 10:16 AM
I love the comparison of combat tactics...

"The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society. They favor ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise . . . goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them.”



“Elves are cautious warriors . . . maximizing their advantage by using ambushes, snipers, and camouflage. They prefer to fire from cover and retreat before they are found, repeating this maneuver until all of their enemies are dead.”


Its amazing, now that you look at it, how one can basicly take the exact same tactic, write it two different ways, and make one sound like cowardly swine, and the other to be graceful, tactical warriors...

We at the Goblin Defense Fund agree, of course -- one of our primary goals is to expose such instances of blatant hypocrisy. But we can't do it without your help! Please, all, sign the petition. We must make our voices heard!

Kyeudo
2007-10-10, 10:33 AM
Goblins would be a better player race than tieflings. Less inclination for evil. Maybe they'll make it into the 4th edition PHB.

Morty
2007-10-10, 10:35 AM
We at the Goblin Defense Fund agree, of course -- one of our primary goals is to expose such instances of blatant hypocrisy. But we can't do it without your help! Please, all, sign the petition. We must make our voices heard!

Well, your efforts while noble are futile I'm afraid, unless you also petition to give goblins black skin and white hair. Or otherwise shiny/angsty characteristics.

Wraithy
2007-10-10, 10:57 AM
The 36th person on the petition speaking, make your friends sign now!

Forrester
2007-10-10, 08:23 PM
Well, your efforts while noble are futile I'm afraid, unless you also petition to give goblins black skin and white hair. Or otherwise shiny/angsty characteristics.

How much gold would it take to treat a few million goblins to a dye job? I fear you may be right, but we'll see.

DraPrime
2007-10-10, 08:51 PM
As much as I love fighting goblins, I feel sorry for them. *signs petition*

Fishies
2007-10-10, 09:25 PM
Against the Common Oppressor!

SurlySeraph
2007-10-10, 09:27 PM
But goblins have green skin and fangs. And they're listed as evil. Doesn't this mean that the gods in their infinite wisdom created goblins purely for young adventurers to kill for experience so that they can become sufficiently skilled to fight the true enemies of all that is lawful and good, such as demons?

Well, but of course if goblins became too rare or were considered too weak, said adventurers would not get sufficient experience and we'd have to hold off the legions of hell with +1 BAB and one daily casting of Cure Light Wounds or Magic Missile. We need goblins around to keep us strong. *signs*

PlasticSoldier
2007-10-10, 09:29 PM
I signed it for redcloak.

de-trick
2007-10-10, 09:30 PM
(reach in pocket pull out some change) I made some goblins in my campaign tell the PC's how when ever there population grows big a band of adventurer come through and thin there ranks who were hired by the kingdom

Neon Knight
2007-10-10, 09:35 PM
Signed. Because someone needs to polish the hobgoblin's boots.

Renegade Paladin
2007-10-10, 09:44 PM
You missed this goblin (http://flakypastry.runningwithpencils.com/comic.php?strip_id=0). (Though she seems to do a fairly good job at funding (http://flakypastry.runningwithpencils.com/comic.php?strip_id=55) and defending (http://flakypastry.runningwithpencils.com/comic.php?strip_id=128) herself.)

Drider
2007-10-10, 09:58 PM
I loled at that.

Telvos
2007-10-10, 10:06 PM
Signed in the name of Nep, Goblin Hero

clockwork warrior
2007-10-10, 11:27 PM
did i sign it
yes

am i going to make my friends sign it
of course

hoping trolls can get some of the love
just a little

Nonah_Me
2007-10-10, 11:30 PM
did i sign it
yes

am i going to make my friends sign it
of course

hoping trolls can get some of the love
just a little

If the goblins are going to be associated with "durned smelly trolls" then me and my halfling freinds are OUT. I'll not be frickaseed, diced, sliced or pulped just to be put into a troll stew.

I really, really hate trolls. Really.

SoD
2007-10-11, 08:09 AM
Go for Goblins!

A campaign for those of short stature...and aren't halflings. Or gnomes.

The Neoclassic
2007-10-11, 08:19 AM
Goblins are awesome. I don't see why trolls would be brought in though; this is a mission for goblins and other goblinoids to a much lesser extent.

Fixer
2007-10-11, 08:31 AM
I love the comparison of combat tactics...

"The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society. They favor ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise . . . goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them.”



“Elves are cautious warriors . . . maximizing their advantage by using ambushes, snipers, and camouflage. They prefer to fire from cover and retreat before they are found, repeating this maneuver until all of their enemies are dead.”


Its amazing, now that you look at it, how one can basicly take the exact same tactic, write it two different ways, and make one sound like cowardly swine, and the other to be graceful, tactical warriors...

This act alone compelled me to sign the petition.

Dubie
2007-10-11, 08:55 AM
Fixer, if thats realy you in your picture avatar, you look so much like my brother-in-law its spookey....

SoD
2007-10-11, 09:15 AM
I propose we NEVER allow this thread to die, so that we may gain more votes for Goblins!

Arang
2007-10-11, 09:22 AM
I love the comparison of combat tactics...

"The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society. They favor ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise . . . goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them.”



“Elves are cautious warriors . . . maximizing their advantage by using ambushes, snipers, and camouflage. They prefer to fire from cover and retreat before they are found, repeating this maneuver until all of their enemies are dead.”


Its amazing, now that you look at it, how one can basicly take the exact same tactic, write it two different ways, and make one sound like cowardly swine, and the other to be graceful, tactical warriors...

The way I see it elves use ambushes etc. because they view it as smart to fight that way.

Goblins use ambushes etc. because they're cowards.

I'm not saying goblins aren't antagonized, because they are. I just think that there's more than one side to this particular issue.

Dubie
2007-10-11, 09:36 AM
No matter what, Goblins will always be mostly antagonists in my worlds. I just thought it was an interesting comparison. Imagin the Goblins version of the Monster Manual.

"Elves are filthy cowards. They prefer to hide in trees, firing arrows and running away before thier opponents can fight back. They repeat this tactic until they've murdered all thier enemies without a fair fight."

"Goblins are cunning warriors, prefering to ambush thier opponents with spears and arrows, retreating before the enemy recovers from the initial shock. They repeat this tactic until all thier enemy has been defeated. Use of such briliant tactics allows the goblins to defeat much more powerful foes then would be possible in hand to hand combat."

Forrester
2007-10-11, 09:41 AM
The way I see it elves use ambushes etc. because they view it as smart to fight that way.

Goblins use ambushes etc. because they're cowards.


Boy howdy, that's convenient. Elves aren't cowards. They're just smart.

*vomits*

www.goblindefensefund.org

Morty
2007-10-11, 09:55 AM
Boy howdy, that's convenient. Elves aren't cowards. They're just smart.

*vomits*

Well, the're also graceful, preety, and somehow manage to be excellent swordsmen, wizards and archers at the same time.
To be perfectly honest, this site takes things a little too seriously, but elves are described quite fanboy-like in D&D.

Arang
2007-10-11, 10:00 AM
Boy howdy, that's convenient. Elves aren't cowards. They're just smart.

*vomits*

www.goblindefensefund.org

Well, no. Not as such. If the elves thought they'd win more easily/with smaller losses by going toe-to-toe, they'd probably do so.

The goblins, as written, would probably still be hiding behind a bush.

Name_Here
2007-10-11, 10:07 AM
The history is so far my favorite part of the site. I can't believe that the SUnless Citadel is an actual adventure. I mean whose bright idea was it to have the party slaughter Goblins because they have the aduacity to sell their disease curing fruit.

I mean how messed up is that?

Though it does give me a great idea of what my party will do if I ever think they are getting in to too much of a kill green things on sight way of thinking.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-11, 10:24 AM
My the goblins be free!

signature #91

In one of my worlds the goblins are the most powerful race, with twice the population of any other race and they have steampunk technology while the rest of the world is medieval, especially the dwarves, who are isolated from every other race except and only survive because of goblin trade.

Wraithy
2007-10-11, 10:26 AM
Boy howdy, that's convenient. Elves aren't cowards. They're just smart.

*vomits*

www.goblindefensefund.org

he he, It's this sort of sentence that makes me want to use LOL as a verb.


My the goblins be free!

In one of my worlds the goblins are the most powerful race, with twice the population of any other race and they have steampunk technology while the rest of the world is medieval, especially the dwarves, who are isolated from every other race except and only survive because of goblin trade.

....you....are.........GOD!

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-11, 10:55 AM
....you....are.........GOD!

:biggrin:
I try. The world changes a lot of setreotypes, like humans have the smallest population, elves are barbaric nomads without any form of manners, dwarves are just plan pathetic and are near slaves to the goblins (though thats because goblins control every aspect of them). Halflings are a grand race and the only ones who actively defy the goblins, but are too occupied with protecting their cities and shrines to do anything and the have a reputation of extorting the less powerful people who want them as sailors (the halflings are shoal halflings with powers over water). Its a great setting and I can't wait to see the player's reactions.

Forrester
2007-10-11, 11:11 AM
The history is so far my favorite part of the site. I can't believe that the SUnless Citadel is an actual adventure. I mean whose bright idea was it to have the party slaughter Goblins because they have the aduacity to sell their disease curing fruit.

I mean how messed up is that?

Though it does give me a great idea of what my party will do if I ever think they are getting in to too much of a kill green things on sight way of thinking.

lol, that's a great line (cleaned up a bit):

"I can't believe that the Sunless Citadel is an actual adventure. Whose bright idea was it to have the party slaughter Goblins because they have the audacity to sell a disease curing fruit?"

I have to add that to the site somewhere!

Arakune
2007-10-11, 11:36 AM
The history is so far my favorite part of the site. I can't believe that the SUnless Citadel is an actual adventure. I mean whose bright idea was it to have the party slaughter Goblins because they have the aduacity to sell their disease curing fruit.

I mean how messed up is that?

Though it does give me a great idea of what my party will do if I ever think they are getting in to too much of a kill green things on sight way of thinking.

TOTALLY QFT!!!!

Morty
2007-10-11, 11:38 AM
I was preety puzzled when I saw that thing about goblins in The Sunless Citadel. I thought that the whole "kill the goblins because they're there" was just an exagerration that doesn't happen in serious adventures.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-11, 11:50 AM
I was preety puzzled when I saw that thing about goblins in The Sunless Citadel. I thought that the whole "kill the goblins because they're there" was just an exagerration that doesn't happen in serious adventures.

Wanna bet? Maybe not a well constructed adventure, but in a serious adventure, yes. I've played my share (as well as my players).

AKA_Bait
2007-10-11, 11:55 AM
Well, no. Not as such. If the elves thought they'd win more easily/with smaller losses by going toe-to-toe, they'd probably do so.

The goblins, as written, would probably still be hiding behind a bush.

Well, I do believe the entire point here is that goblins, as written, are represented in an unfair and discriminitory light. How do you know, from the way it's written, that Elves would stand up more toe to toe than our gobliniod friends, eh? How do you know if the goblins though they could kill with fewer losses that they would not?

Cowardice is in the eye of the beholder sir! It can be just as cowardly to cut down an easy opponent to his face as to shoot at a dangerous one from hiding.

Real courage comes from being able to sit and discuss your differences without resorting to violence in the first place. An option Dwarves and Gnomes have never allowed to Goblins...

Wraithy
2007-10-11, 03:15 PM
Cowardice is in the eye of the beholder sir!

beholder?!

Goblins, prepare an ambush! when our soldiers attract the atimagic eye, the shamans blast it from behind!

Wraithy
2007-10-11, 03:18 PM
Cowardice is in the eye of the beholder sir!

beholder?!

Goblins, prepare an ambush! when our soldiers attract the atimagic eye, the shamans blast it from behind!

AKA_Bait
2007-10-11, 03:48 PM
beholder?!

Goblins, prepare an ambush! when our soldiers attract the atimagic eye, the shamans blast it from behind!

You know, I've been waiting several hours for someone to make that joke...

Wraithy
2007-10-11, 03:57 PM
so long I posted it twice

Sgilti
2007-10-11, 08:09 PM
Death to ethno-centricity! For the equality and fraternity of all races! Let's show the humans that they're not the gods' favored creation.

*Signed*

Arbitrarity
2007-10-11, 08:11 PM
beholder?!

Goblins, prepare an ambush! when our soldiers attract the atimagic eye, the shamans blast it from behind!

Beware, for they shall be overcome with the buttery deliciousness of popcorn!

Starsinger
2007-10-11, 08:55 PM
Well, the're also graceful, preety, and somehow manage to be excellent swordsmen, wizards and archers at the same time.
To be perfectly honest, this site takes things a little too seriously, but elves are described quite fanboy-like in D&D.

A. It's not our fault we managed to get ourselves wonderful PR agents between editions.. although, this over-abundance of elven subtypes is annoying, showing that there's such thing as too much of a good thing...

And B. It's not Elves who've been hating Goblins all these years, Orcs is our fault, but Goblins? That's the little people, specifically Dwarves and Gnomes. Elves could care less if Goblins and Gnomes switched places, pesky little buggers gnomes... I'd rather have Goblins as a core race.

And C. By making racist and other hateful remarks against elves, you're merely perpetrating the same sin we're fighting against. Demonizing elves won't stop demonization of goblins.

Morty
2007-10-12, 08:06 AM
A. It's not our fault we managed to get ourselves wonderful PR agents between editions.. although, this over-abundance of elven subtypes is annoying, showing that there's such thing as too much of a good thing...

Elves: what you can do, they can do better. Especially if you play on Faerun.


And B. It's not Elves who've been hating Goblins all these years, Orcs is our fault, but Goblins? That's the little people, specifically Dwarves and Gnomes. Elves could care less if Goblins and Gnomes switched places, pesky little buggers gnomes... I'd rather have Goblins as a core race.

Gnomes? What gnomes? Gnomes don't exist, just like Ewoks.


And C. By making racist and other hateful remarks against elves, you're merely perpetrating the same sin we're fighting against. Demonizing elves won't stop demonization of goblins.

I'm not against elves, but people who designed them. And I resent that, I've never made any racist claims against elves. Not that it's possible to talk about racism in case of imagined species.

Wraithy
2007-10-12, 11:05 AM
Elves could care less if Goblins and Gnomes switched places, pesky little buggers gnomes... I'd rather have Goblins as a core race.

seconded:smallsmile:

Renrik
2007-10-12, 02:34 PM
Man, this reminds of the Goblin Revolution storyline in the Town. The Goblin Statehood Army launched a guerilla ewar againstopressive dwarves and humans in goblin homelands and created a goblin republic.

Yeah, I'm signing this petition. I'm signing the HELL out of this petition.

SoD
2007-10-12, 02:47 PM
Sadly, I doubt that everyone will see it this way. One of my friends once told me I would make an awful DM, due to an imagined conversation:

Me: A lone orc approaches you-
Him: I attack him with my [insert random character designed for max damage with, oddly enough, at least one natural 18]!
Me: Wait, you what?!
Him: I attack it.
Me: Why?!
Him: Because it's evil.
Me: ...no it wasn't...
Him: What do you mean, it's an orc! Of course it's evil!
Me: This one wasn't...
Him: Hmph. I attack it any way.
Me: Why don't you try talking to it?
Him: It's an orc.


Hmph. I bet he'd do the same to an innocent goblin.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-10-12, 02:53 PM
Hm...I'm not so sure I love goblins, but I know I hate elves.

Consider me behind your cause, good sirs.

Forrester
2007-10-12, 03:15 PM
I have to say, you guys kick ass. I checked the analytics for the visits to the site -- getting more folks from here than from the Uber-Site ENWorld!

Just a reminder, if you click on Goblinks at the site, there's a link to a bunch of banners that you can put up on your Myspace pages or whatnot :). And if you do that & link to our page, happy to list you as a "Friend of the GDF" on the Goblinks page!

Wraithy
2007-10-14, 06:21 AM
163 signatures last time I checked

kpenguin
2007-10-14, 06:48 AM
The petition is pointless. Just write an adventure with "Tucker's Goblins" in it and the goblin race will be cool enough to be put in a positive light.

Yvanehtnioj
2007-10-14, 09:32 AM
I love the comparison of combat tactics...

"The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society. They favor ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise . . . goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them.”



“Elves are cautious warriors . . . maximizing their advantage by using ambushes, snipers, and camouflage. They prefer to fire from cover and retreat before they are found, repeating this maneuver until all of their enemies are dead.”


Its amazing, now that you look at it, how one can basicly take the exact same tactic, write it two different ways, and make one sound like cowardly swine, and the other to be graceful, tactical warriors...



I agree totally. As I was reading it, a certain Carlos Mencia show popped into my mind. The one where he speaks out about Katrina--New Orleans. He shows pictures from CNN with the captions. The caption for black people was "they were looting...," while the one for white people was "they were finding supplies." Double standards are for gimps.


I play a cleric in a friend's campaign, and we are trying to capture an "abandoned" keep for ourselves. (It has lots of undead in there.) If we succeed, one of the things I am planning on doing is to search the surrounding wilderness for goblins, orcs, etc. Since, one of the languages my character can speak is goblin, I am going to try to forge diplomatic relations with any that I find. :smallwink:
My goal is to help them live safer lives. If it means paying out of my pocket to help them move to our keep, I will do so.

My char is a TN cleric who values the lives of other creatures. Unless you happen to be a bigot, whereby, I'll simply "Flame Strike" you...and loot your body..to fund my charity. :smalltongue:

Yahzi
2007-10-14, 12:02 PM
most readers of the Monster Manual are daisy-munching elf-lovers with man-crushes on Orlando Bloom
:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

why123
2007-11-07, 01:03 AM
Man, this reminds of the Goblin Revolution storyline in the Town. The Goblin Statehood Army launched a guerilla ewar againstopressive dwarves and humans in goblin homelands and created a goblin republic.:smallsigh:

Renrik
2007-11-07, 12:32 PM
Damn straight. I lead the GSA the whole time, too.

Xuincherguixe
2007-11-07, 12:49 PM
Sadly, I doubt that everyone will see it this way. One of my friends once told me I would make an awful DM, due to an imagined conversation:

Me: A lone orc approaches you-
Him: I attack him with my [insert random character designed for max damage with, oddly enough, at least one natural 18]!
Me: Wait, you what?!
Him: I attack it.
Me: Why?!
Him: Because it's evil.
Me: ...no it wasn't...
Him: What do you mean, it's an orc! Of course it's evil!
Me: This one wasn't...
Him: Hmph. I attack it any way.
Me: Why don't you try talking to it?
Him: It's an orc.


Hmph. I bet he'd do the same to an innocent goblin.

You need to take advantage of the guys close mindedness.

"At the moment he hits the ground a peice of paper falls out. On it are written instructions that this particular Orc was to meet you, and lead you to a feast so as to try and win him over, so that he can help us recover that ancient artifact in a treasure filled dungeon." And there are of course no clues as to where he came from.

Or alternatively the god of diplomacy apears before him and breaks an olive branch over his skull.

SoD
2007-11-07, 01:18 PM
Yeah, unfortunatly, I wasn't actually DMing. It wasn't actually a game, just an example I put to him, and his replies. I will, however, be DMing for him and others later this year. I've got a feeling he'd act the same towards goblins.

''Why did I attack it? It's in the MM!''
''So are elves. And dwarves, and gnomes, halflings, half elves, half orcs...why don't you attack them?''
''That's different. They're in the PHB.''

He's actually quite a good gamer, with a brilliant grasp of the rules, for combat and noncombat, can make characters with a twist to suit any role...he just thinks along the lines of ''let the village burn. A few proffession (builder) checks and it'll be rebuilt. The people in the village? They're just NPCs! There's millions of them in the world! A village burning won't matter that much.'' Yes. He has actually said that. But he can make a character that, on a critical at level 1 (with a +1 LA) deals 12d6+30 damage.

Renrik
2007-11-07, 01:28 PM
I remember the beholder in The Town wrote a story for the Word Page, a newspaper that promoted the interests of "monstrous" creatures. It went something like this:

Phineas walked into a lair of goblins, killed them, and took their trasure. He return to his town and was heralded as a hero.

George broke into a halfling household, murdered the inhabitants, and looted their bodies. He was hanged on the gallows.

What's the difference?

George was colorblind.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-07, 01:31 PM
George was colorblind.

Lol!

As for your player SoD, I can foresee a lot of pain and suffering on his part...unless you're too nice and don't want to teach him a lesson, but you don't seem that type. :smallamused:

Cyclone231
2007-11-07, 06:38 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa, you guys support goblins? Don't you know they eat babies at least once every month in order to connect with their dark god, Malbugyett (sp?), known commonly by the title "the Evil Torture-Loving Baby-Eater"?

Besides, they are anarchic monsters whose ideal world is one wherein a goblin swings in from a rope and hits you with a stick, killing you, and their steals your wife in order to fornicate with her against her will (or make her a slave against her will)!

In a goblin's ideal world, the strong (strong being defined as those most capable of the twin acts of taking power and surviving after) rule the weak (weak being defined as those least capable of the twin acts of taking power and surviving after). That's meritocracy, the greatest affront to democracy and AMERICA there is!

What, do you all hate freedom?

Fiery Justice
2007-11-07, 06:50 PM
The Goblins are an unworthy species, and chalking everything said about them as, "Blatant racism" is like saying, "Hey, those demons are alright dudes, everyone who says otherwise is a racist"

I mean seriously, they all participate in rituals to their dark gods. If your powering a being that is the manifest representation of evil, your a bad guy,

cupkeyk
2007-11-07, 07:07 PM
"Civilized" races marginalize the "savage" races, encroaching on their resources and driving them away from their homelands. It is absurd that any humanoid paladins exist other than goblinoids, orcs or reptilian exist. They support a culture of hegemony and maltreatment of the weak and defenseless. I am sad that I am only the 241st signature. Ilmater will have goblinoids, reptilian humanoids and orcs in his portfolion, these races have suffered enough.

Arakune
2007-11-07, 07:20 PM
The Goblins are an unworthy species, and chalking everything said about them as, "Blatant racism" is like saying, "Hey, those demons are alright dudes, everyone who says otherwise is a racist"

I mean seriously, they all participate in rituals to their dark gods. If your powering a being that is the manifest representation of evil, your a bad guy,

But they are cannon folder, nothing more. If they need to be some short of evil race, at least give then some dignity or means to really threaten someone.

cupkeyk
2007-11-07, 07:52 PM
And the correct approach to encountering people of a different ethnicity is to kill them. Look at all the options, peaceful assimilation and reeducation and killing. Yes, killing is always the correct answer. (End of Sarcasm)

Darkxarth
2007-11-07, 07:59 PM
I signed. Goblins deserve the same chance as every other intelligent non-outsider.

Except Drow. Screw those guys.

Renrik
2007-11-07, 08:19 PM
^^^^^(Fiery Justice)
1. What evidence is there that goblins perform any manner of ritual to maglubiet, other than alubiet being their diety? What evidence is there that these rituals are vile? Do they involve sacrifice? So far, in all the goblin information I've seen, I have seen very little focus given to their religion or their diety. For all we know, they might just go to the temple each gobbo sabbath and pray quietly. Probably not, but they might.

2. What makes Maglubiet evil? Living on a plane with a bunch of giant metallic cubes smashing into eachother? Having friends whose wings happen to be batlike instead of feathery? He supports the interests of the goblin race and the destruction of enemies to his people, just as any other racial diety in D&D does. When maglubiet orders goblins to kill dwavres, is that any more evil than Moradin orderingdwarves to kill goblins? The two races are fighting over resources and space, mostly, which has led them to hate eachother. We don't know which one started it.

3. What makes the fiends and the "lower" planes so bad? The fire and batwings? Not much different from the fire and feathery wings in the upper planes. Both sides are basically armies, trying to win over mortals to their side and win control of the multiverse. The only differences betwee them seem to be cosmetic stuff. They both manipulate and boss around mortals, then take their souls when they die. One side just happens to have membranous wings, while the other side gets feathers.

4. Even assuming that the goblins are wrong to worship their diety, and that their dietyis somehow "evil", does thismake them any worse than humans? A lot of humans worship dieties like Erythnul and Vecna and Nerull. Does this mean I should go into the homes of people living in Hextorian theocracies and kill them, then loot their bodies?


^^^^^^ (Cyclone231)
Actualy, meritocracy is part of the basis of capitalism, in which the best and brightest rise to thetop by being the most productive. If you don;t support capitalism, you must be a socialist. And socialists hate America. Proven fact.


Viva la gobbolution!

Darkxarth
2007-11-07, 08:25 PM
3. What makes the fiends and the "lower" planes so bad? The fire and batwings? Not much different from the fire and feathery wings in the upper planes. Both sides are basically armies, trying to win over mortals to their side and win control of the multiverse. The only differences betwee them seem to be cosmetic stuff. They both manipulate and boss around mortals, then take their souls when they die. One side just happens to have membranous wings, while the other side gets feathers.

Actually, fiends are the embodiement of evil (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic) and perform unspeakable acts on a daily basis. I'd tell you about them, but they're also untypable acts of evil.

Other than that, "Vivent les Lutins!"

Cyclone231
2007-11-07, 10:03 PM
^^^^^^ (Cyclone231)
Actualy, meritocracy is part of the basis of capitalism, in which the best and brightest rise to thetop by being the most productive. If you don;t support capitalism, you must be a socialist. And socialists hate America. Proven fact.


Viva la gobbolution!Red herring. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political one.

The meritocracy of the goblins applies to their political system.

The political system regulates the economic system by forcing the people to obey the command of the Supreme Warlord, typically creating a command economy rather than a free one.

Renrik
2007-11-08, 02:40 PM
^ Touche. In this case, I have to play devil's advocate by arguing that democracy and free markets are bad (which I don;t beleive because I'm a strong supporter of democracy and free markets, but... I have to play devil's adovcate). Let me change into my goblin socialist persona.

Evil human burgoise! Opressor of the working goblin! Down with your fascist capitalism! Viva la gobbolution!

That killed me a little on the inside.


Actually, fiends are the embodiement of evil (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic) and perform unspeakable acts on a daily basis. I'd tell you about them, but they're also untypable acts of evil.


You claim they do unspeakable acts of evi, but what evidence do you offer? I fail to see how their influence ont he material plane is any worse than that of the "celestials" who offer support to the humans killing the goblins. They're just different sides of the same coin. Both are manipulative outsiders in a huge interdimensional game of chess. What makes the fiends any more evil than the celestials? Killing "good" creatures? So is it now OK for celestials and their pawns to kill goblins and orcs, but not for feinds and their servants to return the favor? the things that fiends do to their enemies seem to eb the same thing that celestials do to their enemies. They kill them. Often, in horribly painful ways (both sides). One side claiming to have the moral high ground does not make it so, nor does it make their cause more righteous. Each side is simpkly attempting to make themselves masters of the multiverse, by herding as many mortal souls over to their side as possible. Both sides are equally annoying.

Morty
2007-11-08, 03:45 PM
Red herring. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political one.

The meritocracy of the goblins applies to their political system.

The political system regulates the economic system by forcing the people to obey the command of the Supreme Warlord, typically creating a command economy rather than a free one.

Which is utterly irrelevant here. The point of the petition is to make goblins something more than easliy justifable cannon fodder, in case you haven't noticed. Yes, the "savage" races in D&D are shown as despicable monsters, in order to give players easy XP on low levels without moral qualms. Which in opinion of many people is stupid and unrealistic. Though making a fund is pushing it a lil' bit too far.

Renrik
2007-11-11, 10:48 AM
We ought to hold a design contest: Portray goblinoids in a positive light. Entries can take the form of characters, adventure plots, locations, organizations, or magic items and/or spells made by goblinoids. the goblinoids must be portrayed either as the good guys or as formidable, not-pathetic bad guys with a real purpose.

Darkxarth
2007-11-11, 12:14 PM
You claim they do unspeakable acts of evil, but what evidence do you offer? I fail to see how their influence ont he material plane is any worse than that of the "celestials" who offer support to the humans killing the goblins. They're just different sides of the same coin. Both are manipulative outsiders in a huge interdimensional game of chess. What makes the fiends any more evil than the celestials? Killing "good" creatures? So is it now OK for celestials and their pawns to kill goblins and orcs, but not for feinds and their servants to return the favor? the things that fiends do to their enemies seem to br the same thing that celestials do to their enemies. They kill them. Often, in horribly painful ways (both sides). One side claiming to have the moral high ground does not make it so, nor does it make their cause more righteous. Each side is simpkly attempting to make themselves masters of the multiverse, by herding as many mortal souls over to their side as possible. Both sides are equally annoying.
Yes, both Celestials and Fiends spend their time influencing the Material and trying to convert mortals to their sides, but Celestials don't spend their personal time torturing kittens at home.

Fiends do.

Fiends and Celestials both kill their enemies, true, but if a Celestial takes a prisoner they don't torture the information out of them. Fiends, on the other hand, will torture the information out of prisoners and then may continue to torture them for fun.

Consider also what Fiends use their souls for, as opposed to what Celestials use them for. Fiends use souls as fuel and ammunition.

I'd say that qualifies Fiends as pretty freakin' evil.

ReproMan
2007-11-11, 12:44 PM
I've always had a working definition of Evil as something along the lines of, 'Causing pain where it is neither needed nor deserved.' That's not to say that an Evil character does this regularly, nor that a Good character has never done this. It's just a general mindset, where an Evil character is much, much more willing to hurt than a Good character would be.


We ought to hold a design contest: Portray goblinoids in a positive light. Entries can take the form of characters, adventure plots, locations, organizations, or magic items and/or spells made by goblinoids. the goblinoids must be portrayed either as the good guys or as formidable, not-pathetic bad guys with a real purpose.

Ooh...

...

...I soooooooo want to say something here, but there's a decent chance some of my PCs will be reading this...

Ponce
2007-11-11, 01:42 PM
Nay! The abominations must be cleansed! Goblins, halflings, dwarves, elves, orcs... all must perish in a rite of holy flame! Humans overcome universe! Manifest destiny! One vision! Fried chicken!

Renrik
2007-11-11, 01:59 PM
^ and people accuse gobbos of being evil...


Yes, both Celestials and Fiends spend their time influencing the Material and trying to convert mortals to their sides, but Celestials don't spend their personal time torturing kittens at home.

Fiends do.

Fiends and Celestials both kill their enemies, true, but if a Celestial takes a prisoner they don't torture the information out of them. Fiends, on the other hand, will torture the information out of prisoners and then may continue to torture them for fun.

Consider also what Fiends use their souls for, as opposed to what Celestials use them for. Fiends use souls as fuel and ammunition.

I'd say that qualifies Fiends as pretty freakin' evil.

Contining to (literally) play devil's advocate:
Concerning torture:

So the fiends use torture. Humans use torture. Dwarves use torture. Some of the daisy-crunching elf-lovers with mancrushes on Orlando Bloom may deny it, but I'd hazard a guess that Elves use torture too. Does this mean that every single last one of the humans, dwarves, and elves are evil? Of course not. It means that members of their races have been known to be amoral about the method in which they extract information.

Concerning the use of souls:

First, to what extent do you claim the fiends use souls as fuel and ammunition? Certainly, a larval soul can amp up the power of a spell, and they have been known to use souls as currency, and they have been known to use petitioners for manual labor, but as fuel and ammunition? Fuel, perhaps, but I have yet to see a fiend shoot a soul at someone. that would make as much sense as me shooting someone with a chunk of gold.

Seondly, even if the fiends do use souls as you have stated, don't you think the celestials use souls for their own purposes? Armies of 'saved' souls? Where do you think the goodly gods and the celestials draw their power from? As if the fiends were so inferior that only they had to use souls for power, while the clestials could match them without doing so? If only the fiends were taking souls as power, then either
a. Fiends are horribly pathetic creatures, which they are not.
or
b. Fiends would have overrun the 'upper' planes by virtue of having more power, from all those souls. they have not done so.

So, it stands to reason that the fiends must not be the only ones tapping into souls for power.

Moreover, consider the goodly gods. They draw their power from "worship", from being recognized and venerated by mortals. Mortals that venerate Gods have their souls sucked into the Gods' realms when they die. There, it is hypothesized that they merge with the gods and add to their strength. Or, at very least, become petitioners and continue to serve their gods. therefor, the gods draw their powers from the mortal souls of their petitioners.

Finally, if the fiends do "abuse" their petitioners, is it any fault? The very nature of humanity (or goblinity) is that all individuals ultimately have free choice in their descisions. If a mortal decides to side with the Fiends and enjoy wealth and power in life in exchange for service to the fiends in the afterlife, it was his choice to folow that bargain, and it was thus his own doing that placed in the service of the fiends.

And, finally, the orginal root of this particular part of the conversation was whether or not goblins are evil for worshipping alegedly evil gods.
I submit to you that goblins worship Maglubiet not because they are evil creatures, but because Maglubiet is the only deity that has shown any interest in the well-being of the goblin people. While other the other deities tend to their domains and turn a blind eye on the followers of Moradin, Corellon, Heironius, Cuthbert, Pelor, and others, who brutally rampage through goblin towns, who attack goblin tribes, and who actively work to drive goblins out of their lands, only Maglubiet took the time to pledge his service to the goblins by providing them with a divine patron who would grant power to their preists, to provide healing and protection, in exchange for veneration, which itself only serves to fuel Maglubiet so that he can continue to provide the divine spells to the goblin clerics.

I ask you: If you were a goblin, if your tribe had just been butchered by a gang of humans and elves and dwarves and what-have-you, if your home had been destroyed and looted, and an entity comes to you, offers to grant you spellcasting powers that will protect you, pledges to fight against the gods of those that have destroyed your home, and promises to make your people safe and well-off, would you care if he happened to come from the plane of Acheron (which is, in and of itself, not an evil plane; it is a LN plane with LE tendencies. It's right next to Mechanus. Maglubiet probably lives in that hellhole because the "godly" deuities who have ordered their followers to opress the goblins have likewised scorned the goblin god.)?

I wouldn't. Why? Because all the other gods have forsaken the goblins. Only Maglubiet has shown any concern for their wellbeing. And what evidence is there that Maglubiet plans anything dangerous? He has so far only worked to promote the interests of the goblin people, which are apparently to thrive and prosper, and to gain an upper hand in their ongoing war with the dwarves and elves (and don't say the goblins started the war. there is no evidence of that. Most likely, it was developed over territorial disputes and fighting for resources.). In looking out for his people's wellbeing, Maglubiet is like any other racial deity, no worse than your beloved Corellon or Moradin.
-------------

Anyway, on to the design contest: I'm thinking of putting in an entry that jointly covers the entire goblin revolution complex from the Town. Put the GSA-GWU-GLP (Goblin Statehood Army, Worker's Union, and Labor Party, respectively), the Free Federation of Goblin States and its capitol at Datharral, and then an interesting twist by putting in the extremist militant group the Sons of Maglubiet. Or maybe I'll just do one of those ideas.

Edit: I think we'll need a seperate thread for that design contestemajiggy, though. I'll go start one in the Homebrew Section.

Morty
2007-11-11, 02:45 PM
Showing goblins in positive light? Now that's something for me. Although the version of goblins I put in my campaign setting resembles Warcraft goblins about as much as D&D ones...

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 03:10 PM
From the campaign I'm about to run:

Goblins are the largest force in the world, they have the highest population, approximately 2 times that of halflings and elves. They make up a little less than half of the world population. Goblins are also the most industrious and efficient of the races and have developed steam powered airships, boats and land vehicles and possibly submersible warships as the [aquatic] halflings suspect. The Goblin Empire is a force to be reckoned with controlling most of the world, including a large portion of the most fertile lands the Vys~ir Fields. They have even managed to control almost the entire dwarven race by keeping their mountain city isolated from outside influences, trading much needed food for gold, iron and coal. The dwarves do not resist since this is a life they've been living for hundreds of years. Additionally, the goblins control the Leyline of Fire (a portal to the plane of fire) and thus have the only access to the cities, wealth, and skill of the Flinik. The goblins have long been on every good terms with the equally proud and efficient race, trading gold and jewelry for fine craftsmanship of machinery made with materials only forge-able on the plane of fire. Do to this, the goblins have gained enormous resources that are impossible to be equaled by the other nations. As such, the goblins are slowly expanding into the unexplored areas of the world, hindered only by the great elven council whose superior airships and control over the very winds and sky poses the only true threat to the goblins. Luckily, the proud and selfish nature of the elves prevents them from acting against the goblins as long as they gain the many trade benefits the goblins grant them.

What do you think?

Darkantra
2007-11-11, 03:14 PM
It's about damn time someone thought to give goblins more of a personality than.

A) Enjoy squating in their own filth.
B) Are so weak and cowardly.
C) Are vicious, evil little blighters!
D) LoOoOoOove taking slaves!

Even hobgoblins suffer from a confusing +1 LA adjustment, despite the fact that their racial abilities are on par with any of the core races.

If goblins have been fighting dwarves and gnomes for so long, why not give them a +1 to attack bonus as well? It makes utterly no sense that dwarves and gnomes learn special tactics for fighting their most hatred enemies but that goblins have never learned a damned thing about the anatomy and psychology of their enemies in the millenia that they've been feuding.

And then there's Khurgorbaeyag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khurgorbaeyag

Made specifically to endorse the wholly silly notion that them goblins love their slavery, boy howdy!

I'm signing it.

And Tarterous, love the setting!

Renrik
2007-11-11, 06:04 PM
Right, I'm going to have my entry be an entire goblin revolution movement ready to set into any standard campain.

Ponce
2007-11-11, 11:01 PM
You abomination-sympathizers ought to know that many Goblin Revolutionaries (http://goblinscomic.com/) already prowl the internet. No mercy for the wretched! The lands must be cleansed! Use two parts water!

Renrik
2007-11-12, 02:24 PM
Dude, a lot of us ARE goblin revolutionaries. Read the spoiler in my signature.

Viva la gobbolution.

Ponce
2007-11-12, 04:44 PM
Dude, a lot of us ARE goblin revolutionaries. Read the spoiler in my signature.

Viva la gobbolution.

You don't LOOK like goblins. Is this some sort of trick?

Edit: Oh, and uh, purge the world... human or get lost... etc

Renrik
2007-11-13, 12:36 AM
Well, people like you tend to attack goblins on sight. So we have to dress up like things that aren;t goblins. Like stinky humans, for example.

Wraithy
2007-11-13, 12:33 PM
...Or..whatever the hell I ams

Hyozo
2007-11-13, 03:19 PM
What is the real difference between Goblins and Kobolds? Not much at first, in first edition they both served the purpose of being LLCF. Now, You see a kobold character show up in half of GITP's PBPs, but still almost no goblins. Why?

Tucker's kobolds
Pun-Pun
Races of the Dragon

These are the type of things Goblins need, not a fund. You need to make Goblins something a PC would be affraid of. You need to show people what Goblins are like when they aren't falling before an adventurer's sword. Do this, and you won't need to bribe WotC to give goblins a bit more respect, WotC will do it for the money they can get for a book portraying Goblins as always the way you made them.

Renrik
2007-11-14, 07:01 PM
Right, so we hold a design contest and make a bunch of really good goblin designs, then somehow get the best of them, whether they portray goblins as protagonists or as villains, or just talk about their culture, into circulation in the gaming community somehow.
We'll need to make:
Adventures with goblins as formidable villains
Cultural treatise on goblins
Goblin organization
Goblin NPCs
Spells invented by goblin arcanists