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Dausuul
2007-10-10, 12:06 AM
So, on the "Full Caster's Answer to Stealth Skills" thread, the rogues are now using UMD+scrolls to try and take the wizard down. Which is legitimate, but also kind of wizard-lite.

Therefore, I decided to cut through it and pose the real question:

Can a 20th-level wizard successfully assassinate another 20th-level wizard?

Of course, to make it interesting, I'll set out a few conditions.

There are two 20th-level wizards, Wolf and Stag. Both are straight-up wizards with no PrCs and 32-point buy, although they are allowed to be specialists if they wish. They start in secret fortresses, neither knowing the other's location, and each has a day to prep spells before the contest begins.

Clarification: Both wizards know the rules of the contest from the start, including all information given below.

Wolf's goal is simple: Kill Stag.

Stag's goal is a bit more complicated. Stag must stay alive; however, he's also not allowed to huddle inside Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion all day. Every day at 8:00 AM, he will be given a task to do within 24 hours, reflecting the demands upon a socially conscious high-level wizard's time. This task will require him to go to a chosen location and do one of the following:

1: Kill a CR 20 monster which is present at that location. (This should not pose a serious challenge for a 20th-level wizard, but does require a bit of effort.)
2: Talk to a person at that location for 1 hour.
3: Deliver an object in Stag's possession to that location. (The object in question will be of no significant value; we're talking love letters and bags of potatoes here, not magic items.)
4: Take an object (again, of no significant value) from that location to another location.

Each day, the location to which Stag is sent and the task he is required to perform there are different, and neither he nor Wolf knows in advance what they will be. Stag is given his assignments by Pun-Pun, who has given himself permanent nonmagical mind blank as an extraordinary ability, so Wolf cannot coerce, compel, or mind-scan the assignment-giver.

Clarification: Pun-Pun cannot be spied upon, scried upon, or in any way examined by Wolf--or Stag for that matter. He delivers the assignments by beaming them directly into Stag's mind (bypassing any mind blank or other such spells Stag may have in effect) from his floating citadel in the Plane of Hot Kobold Women. Wolf is permitted to try to find out what the assignment is, but he cannot do so in any way that involves going through Pun-Pun.

The contest lasts for 30 days. At the end of that time, if Stag is still alive and has performed all his tasks, he wins. If Stag is dead or has failed in at least one task, Wolf wins. Special exemption: If Stag fails at a task because Wolf's interference makes the task actually impossible to complete, he is excused from that task. But remember that "impossible" is a pretty strong word in the context of a 20th-level wizard.

(Note that this means Wolf not only has to kill Stag, but keep him dead; if Stag can arrange to get himself resurrected, he can still win.)

WHO WINS?

And, more importantly, how?

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-10, 12:10 AM
Why don't you run it and find out?

Dausuul
2007-10-10, 12:11 AM
Why don't you run it and find out?

Because I want to see what strategies people come up with?

Hunter Noventa
2007-10-10, 12:16 AM
A curious contest, with multiple levels. However, in the end, after duels of scrying versus anti-scrying, transportation and dueling, it all would like come down to whoever's Contingency was better worded.

Of course, the easier thing for Wolf to do would be to prevent Stag from compelteing a task. Which means that once he finds Stag, things become more interesting, requiring a different approach for each task.

1.) Kill the monster before Stag can, or aid the monster in killing Stag. Two CR 20 encounters would likely wipe out a single wizard.

2.) Kill the person Stag has to talk to. SHould be easy if you can find out who it is.

3.) Destroy said location before Stag arrives, or attempt to block all routes of arrival.

4.) Destory object before Stag can pick it up, or failing that resort to 3.)

The problem is if that scrying and divination cannot reveal any of this data, Wolf is oing to have a bit more trouble. Though if he can find out where Stag lives and attack him in his sleep...well I dunno. I'm sure someone more expert than I will elaborate further.

Kyeudo
2007-10-10, 12:22 AM
Hmm. Since Stag knows that he's being hunted, the first think on his list is keeping a Mind Blank on himself 24/7. This will cut all chances of Wolf using divinations to find Stag. Stag should also keep a Foresight/Celerity combo ready during his missions, so that he can unload a Time Stop summoning nova to get some body guards.

The only time Stag should have a problem is on days when he must spend 1 hour at a location talking to someone and Wolf somehow figures out where he will be. However, a Rary's Telepathic Bond will allow Stag to keep chatting while he Greater Teleports around the continent.

I say Stag will win.

Dausuul
2007-10-10, 12:23 AM
Of course, the easier thing for Wolf to do would be to prevent Stag from compelteing a task. Which means that once he finds Stag, things become more interesting, requiring a different approach for each task.

Hmm, that's a good point... rules modified to reflect that, since this is ultimately supposed to be about Wolf killing Stag.

Jacob Orlove
2007-10-10, 12:24 AM
Wolf wins. It doesn't even matter how, because there's pretty much always a counter to any specific line of attack. The problem is that there are more possible lines of attack than either Wizard has spells for, which means that unless Stag is extremely lucky 30 times in a row, Wolf will have (even if just by chance) prepared an attack for which Stag does not have the matching defense.

But let's start things off. Gate has no save and no SR, and "By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling." It should be trivial to win at that point, particularly if you employ a quickened/contingent Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

So now Stag has to set up a Contingency for that, or find a different defense, but either way, he limits his options against other attacks. We can just keep listing ways for Wolf to win, until Stag runs out of spells/cash/feats to stop them all. Wolf is under no such limitation.

Stag's only real chance to win is to kill Wolf, and then complete his tasks.

Chronos
2007-10-10, 12:29 AM
Of course, the easier thing for Wolf to do would be to prevent Stag from compelteing a task. Which means that once he finds Stag, things become more interesting, requiring a different approach for each task.As I'm reading the rules, this would be a no-win situation, not a win for Wolf. Likewise, if Stag neglects his tasks to hunt down Wolf (and succeeds), that's also a no-win. Except for the one about Wolf teaming up with the CR20 monster, of course, but he'd have to get the timing right: If it's just "later that day", then Stag is already safely back in his extradimensional space.

As far as tactics go, I would expect that Legend Lore and/or Vision would be very useful divinations, since a level 20 character is easily well into the "legendary" range.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-10-10, 12:30 AM
The way the task is set up, Wolf will always win if he preempts any of the tasks Stag has to do. The perameters you have set up seem too harsh in that sense. Even making Stag have a mind blank won't help, as Wolf can use a divination spell to find who Stag has to talk to, not Stag himself. It's just too easy for Wolf to win if he has 30 days to make Stag screw up.
The situation itself doesn't even have anything to do with the original question. How does stopping Stag from picking up groceries (ie by destroying the grocery store) prove Stag can be assassinated? How does stopping Stag from talking to a friend count as assassinating him? You need a better way to test the possibility of assassination or you need a new premise.
Also, you need to define what will be allowed by Wolf and Stag. Is cheese permitted? What about Leadership or stuff like that? What about overall character wealth? For the monster itself, if it's the Tarrasque, Stag is going to screw himself over paying for XP costs. If it is person with class levels, it's going to be a cakewalk unless it is another spellcaster, which leads to a highly probable death on Stag's part if the encounter is run correctly.

All in all, it is a bold experiment, but is poorly defined and has too many variables to accurately predict in an unbiased situation. However, this current situation is heavily biased towards Wolf. As I said before, Wolf will always win.

Solo
2007-10-10, 12:31 AM
Because I want to see what strategies people come up with?

Summon antimatter, blow up the planet the other guy is on.

Human Paragon 3
2007-10-10, 01:05 AM
If Wolf ever comes face to face with Stag, he can cast a Trace Teleport (or is that a psionic power?). Once he's traced Stag back to his lair, it should be easy to infiltrate it and destroy him.

Behold_the_Void
2007-10-10, 01:15 AM
If Wolf can trace Stag back to his hideout, it's a matter of wearing him down. Stag has the disadvantage of having expended a lot of spell slots carrying out his tasks. Wolf can come in fresh and harry him while Stag tries to rest, preventing him from recovering spell slots. He can even use minions (such as those acquired via Dominate Monster) to keep Stag awake and slowly whittle down his spell slots while Wolf can still comfortably rest and restore his own spell slots.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 01:25 AM
I understand that the original post has been edited, by why does everyone keep saying that Wolf wins? Stag is Mindblanked. Mindblank>Gods. Task assigner is Mindblanked. There is no divination that Wolf can pull off to figure out where Stag will be. There is no divination to figure out what his task is.

I don't know about Vision, but Legend Lore does nothing because the first thing Stag does is go hide in an obscure village. He lives there for a while, pretending to be a poor begger who comes into town looking for work. Occasionally he Greater Teleports out to accomplish a task.

He doesn't even need a Contingency or Foresight/Celerity. Wolf will never even find him.

Also note that later in the more specific part of the description of the Gate spell it states that it must be an extraplanar creature. So a Wizard needs expend no resources to get past that.

And if for some reason Wolf found out about Stag, he could never teleport in because Greater Anticipate Teleport would be up all the time.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 01:33 AM
If Wolf ever comes face to face with Stag, he can cast a Trace Teleport (or is that a psionic power?). Once he's traced Stag back to his lair, it should be easy to infiltrate it and destroy him.

And why would he ever come face to face with him? And why couldn't Stag just make a new lair?

Stag: I teleport away from the guy.
Wolf: I cast Trace Teleport.
Stag: I cast Time Stop and Teleport several more times.
Wolf: I follow the First Teleport.

I have no idea what Trace Teleport does, but based on range/time limits/whatever, I think that Stag can make it so Wolf has no idea where he is.

Captain van der Decken
2007-10-10, 02:01 AM
It's psionic.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm

namo
2007-10-10, 02:30 AM
It is easier to defend than to attack in this case - since he knows he will be attacked.

Wolf has to find Stag, but Stag is so mobile that Wolf has to be able to follow Stag. He'd better memorize lots of Divinations... and then he doesn't have enough offensive power left.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 02:37 AM
It is easier to defend than to attack in this case - since he knows he will be attacked.

Wolf has to find Stag, but Stag is so mobile that Wolf has to be able to follow Stag. He'd better memorize lots of Divinations... and then he doesn't have enough offensive power left.

See Mindblank, Divinations=useless.

namo
2007-10-10, 07:01 AM
Not quite. Contact Other Plane and the likes still work. But sure, it's a pain to try and get precise information from it.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-10, 07:09 AM
amulet of the planes gives unlimited plane shifts per day with a DC15 intellegence check which any wizard should breeze past, this means there is no way wolf can follow stag as he's bouncing around the universe not just the planet, he doesn't even need any teleports memorized just a bit of patience to shift in and out until he lands within 5 miles of his target.

His tower is clearly covered by a permenacied sanctuary spell and he himself is always under mindblank and anticipate teleport so there is no way to find him on the move, no way to find him asleep and no way to surprise him when he stops to have a chat. plus he'll have a stasis clone stashed away somewhere and there's no time delay on a dead wizard waking up into it so wolf can't just kill him and soul bind him, it's got to be a no-leathel takedown which incapacitates. Oh, and stag must not have any high level friends to come to his rescue, help him out or otherwise swing the contest (it doesn't matter overly if wolf has friends as they can't find their opponent or his home).

Wolfs only hope is a DM interpreting that once the mindblanked assigner gives the mission to the mindblanked stag the information is somehow available through divination which seems dumb but it looks like wolf could use a break.

"ok you need to kill this stag guy"
"fine, where is he?"
"oh, I'm not telling you"
"ok then, what's he doing?"
"Nope"
"er, where does he live?"
"nuh-uh"
"can i ask for help?"
"sure but no-one else will kno anything either"
"......... how about ....... um......:smallfrown: "

Kurald Galain
2007-10-10, 07:12 AM
It should be trivial to win at that point, particularly if you employ a quickened/contingent Mordenkainen's Disjunction.
You can't do that, Contingency only works with spells of up to sixth level.

Dausuul
2007-10-10, 07:20 AM
What if Wolf uses a scroll of wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), choosing the "transport travelers" option, to transport Stag to his (Wolf's) own location?

namo
2007-10-10, 07:35 AM
@mostlyharmful : the Gods know. Hence COP : you use it to learn about the mission of Stag and mount a ambush there. It's still exceedingly difficult and I'm still betting on Stag.

@Dausuul : interesting ! Of course, Will saves tend to be higher than spell DCs (and definitely so for a scroll), but Wolf can just do it over and over (I recommend a staff). That may actually work.
Stag will identify the tactic (Spellcraft) and need to find a counter to it - probably a contingency.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 08:39 AM
Not quite. Contact Other Plane and the likes still work. But sure, it's a pain to try and get precise information from it.

Contact Other Plane doesn't help if the Gods don't know anything, which they don't because everyone involved is Mindblanked.


@mostlyharmful : the Gods know. Hence COP : you use it to learn about the mission of Stag and mount a ambush there. It's still exceedingly difficult and I'm still betting on Stag.

Actually there is no reason that the Gods would know, since the information is completely contained within the minds of two people who are immune to anything the Gods try. (Gods aren't omniscient remember?)

For that matter, if Pun-Pun wanted that to work, he'd tell Wolf himself. Since he doesn't want asking the Gods to work, he can just use his overdiety status to block the spells. (Not that he needs to because no other Gods know.)


@Dausuul : interesting ! Of course, Will saves tend to be higher than spell DCs (and definitely so for a scroll), but Wolf can just do it over and over (I recommend a staff). That may actually work.
Stag will identify the tactic (Spellcraft) and need to find a counter to it - probably a contingency.

Yeah, he'll pretty much need a staff, or eighty. Since he could easily Dimensional Lock the area he is staying in (as a beggar, or in MMM.) So at that point he needs to cast Wish during the one part of the day where he has a shot, and he needs to force several Will saves.

Jarlax
2007-10-10, 08:50 AM
Wolf would win. a legend lore spell may not necessarily work on stag but it would work on Pun-Pun, the legendary kobold.

since Pun-Pun is not actively trying to evade or detect Wolf he can locate him and go to him. everything hereafter works on a single assumption, that Pun-Pun is a neutral party and that even if Pun-Pun did detect Wolf he will not actively interfere with any action that does not DIRECTLY interfere with him assigning a mission to Stag.

so now we wait for Stag to arrive and view his assignment being given to him by Pun-Pun through nonmagical means (our own eyes and ears). we now have enough information to stop Stag from succeeding in his task for the day, no matter what it might be.

the other option is to set a trap at Pun-Pun's location. a COP spell can reveal that Pun-Pun assigns the task every day at 8, so Wolf knows where and when Stag must be every day and while Stag has used many spell slots to ensure his nondetection Wolf can prepare his full assortment of spells for combat and know the exact time combat will begin to optimize his buff spells.

finally just drop a Halaster's teleport cage around Pun-Pun from 9:00am to 8:00am the following day so that Stag cannot get to Pun-Pun at the assigned time to receive his task for the day. he would take too long to find the edge of the cage and make it on foot to Pun-Pun. the spell covers a space of 200 cubic feet per section and takes only 10 minutes to cast with each section "locking" onto adjoining cages to allow the space to grow indefinitely, the space around Pun-Pun (and potentially the CR 20 monster he is supposed to kill if your lucky) you could lock out would be massive. in this case you have not made contacting Pun-Pun impossible, simply highly unlikely.

namo
2007-10-10, 09:04 AM
Contact Other Plane doesn't help if the Gods don't know anything, which they don't because everyone involved is Mindblanked.

I'll admit I'm shaky on the Divine rules, but I believe Gods can bypass immunities like the one granted by Mindblank (with magic, with SDAs or with Portfolio Sense). Heck, Metafaculty can bypass it and it's accessible to mortals.


Yeah, he'll pretty much need a staff, or eighty. Since he could easily Dimensional Lock the area he is staying in (as a beggar, or in MMM.) So at that point he needs to cast Wish during the one part of the day where he has a shot, and he needs to force several Will saves.
I excluded that tactic because 1) a wizard typically wants to remain mobile, 2) Wish does not mention how a target is transported - if they are both on the same plane, it may not be subject to effects that block planar travel.

@Jarlax : you are perhaps unaware that Pun-Pun is a very specific (theoretical) character and that he is definitely immune to anything you attempt against him. Presumably that's why he was chosen as impartial referee.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 09:08 AM
Wolf would win. a legend lore spell may not necessarily work on stag but it would work on Pun-Pun, the legendary kobold.

since Pun-Pun is not actively trying to evade or detect Wolf he can locate him and go to him. everything hereafter works on a single assumption, that Pun-Pun is a neutral party and that even if Pun-Pun did detect Wolf he will not actively interfere with any action that does not DIRECTLY interfere with him assigning a mission to Stag.

so now we wait for Stag to arrive and view his assignment being given to him by Pun-Pun through nonmagical means (our own eyes and ears). we now have enough information to stop Stag from succeeding in his task for the day, no matter what it might be.

the other option is to set a trap at Pun-Pun's location. a COP spell can reveal that Pun-Pun assigns the task every day at 8, so Wolf knows where and when Stag must be every day and while Stag has used many spell slots to ensure his nondetection Wolf can prepare his full assortment of spells for combat and know the exact time combat will begin to optimize his buff spells.

finally just drop a Halaster's teleport cage around Pun-Pun from 9:00am to 8:00am the following day so that Stag cannot get to Pun-Pun at the assigned time to receive his task for the day. he would take too long to find the edge of the cage and make it on foot to Pun-Pun. the spell covers a space of 200 cubic feet per section and takes only 10 minutes to cast with each section "locking" onto adjoining cages to allow the space to grow indefinitely, the space around Pun-Pun (and potentially the CR 20 monster he is supposed to kill if your lucky) you could lock out would be massive. in this case you have not made contacting Pun-Pun impossible, simply highly unlikely.

One problem, "Every Day at 8AM he will be given a task." Note that it does not say he will report to Pun-Pun to receive his task. They could have a Rary's Telepathic Bond going. Or Pun-Pun could just drop something off in a specific place. (And why would Wolf know that Stag gets his task at 8 in the morning?)

GoC
2007-10-10, 09:50 AM
Wolf would win. a legend lore spell may not necessarily work on stag but it would work on Pun-Pun, the legendary kobold.

1. Pun-Pun is the overdiety. Few people know much about Ao so why would they know about Pun-Pun?
2. I'm fairly certain Pun-Pun wiped the memories of everyone who knew about him when he ascended.

Swordguy
2007-10-10, 10:19 AM
Summon antimatter, blow up the planet the other guy is on.

Curse you for beating me to it. :smallbiggrin:

Wouldn't work anyway. 20th lvl caster =plane-hopping at will. Which means that when combined with mindblank, well, good luck finding out which planet he's on. Which means that you've got only 30 days to blow up every planet in the multiverse.

Yeah. Good luck with that.

Jacob Orlove
2007-10-10, 12:52 PM
Also note that later in the more specific part of the description of the Gate spell it states that it must be an extraplanar creature. So a Wizard needs expend no resources to get past that.
Right, except that people are proposing that Stag hop around the planes like crazy. From the SRD:

Extraplanar Subtype
A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane.

You can also Gate someone in if they're on the Astral or Ethereal planes, so Stag should avoid those as well.

Mr. Friendly
2007-10-10, 01:17 PM
Wolf wakes up on the first day, eats a hearty breakfast and does a little research on Stag. He either does this magically or hires a Bard to do it for him. He finds out who Stag's mother is/was.

Wolf smiles, does what could be his final actions on the material plane pre-potential collapse, then he speaks, and in doing so casts a spell:

"I wish that (mother's name), the mother of Stag (if he has a last name he would have learned it) of (town where Stag lives), {wife (if married when birthing Stag) of (husband/fathers name) OR daughter (if no husband) of (her parents names)} had died on (insert date any time before Stag was born) from (insert cause)."

Ideally with proper research, Wolf could establish a day that Stag's mom almost died from some situation, but did not, which he then alters to kill her. In theory he could also establish a timeframe when her resurrection or raisedness would be impossible, since she is in all likelyhood just some commoner or minor noble at best.

He could even go back farther than that, if he is willing to accept the consequences of causality and paradox. In any event, 5000xp well spent.

chionophile
2007-10-10, 01:35 PM
"I wish that (mother's name), the mother of Stag (if he has a last name he would have learned it) of (town where Stag lives), {wife (if married when birthing Stag) of (husband/fathers name) OR daughter (if no husband) of (her parents names)} had died on (insert date any time before Stag was born) from (insert cause)."


I don't play DnD, but from the description of wish in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), I'm pretty sure it can't do that.

tannish2
2007-10-10, 01:48 PM
so basically they have to make the whole universe cease to have ever existed to kill each other? fun.

jjpickar
2007-10-10, 02:17 PM
Hmmm. I like this game but it would really be good if someone ran this in the PbP game section. I like Stagg's chances but his mindblank doen's prevent bardic knowledge from working. And what about the aftermath of Stagg's random quests? Couldn't Wolf just wait a few weeks and try to find a pattern to Stagg's wanderings. (do they HAVE to be random?) Maybe he could research a spell of Stagg killing as per spell research rules?

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 02:43 PM
Hmmm. I like this game but it would really be good if someone ran this in the PbP game section. I like Stagg's chances but his mindblank doen's prevent bardic knowledge from working. And what about the aftermath of Stagg's random quests? Couldn't Wolf just wait a few weeks and try to find a pattern to Stagg's wanderings. (do they HAVE to be random?) Maybe he could research a spell of Stagg killing as per spell research rules?

A) Congratulations, you know about this guy, he once did X, He is currently attempting to hide from you, no one knows where. Bardic Knowledge doesn't help you find someone in hiding.
B)There's a wide world, there are lots of other people doing things in it. There is no reason that Wolf would ever know what was Stag's doing and what wasn't. As for a pattern? Why would there be a pattern? The whole point was that he had to accomplish random tasks.
C)Any spell that could kill someone when you don't know where they are (must have infinite interplanar range) when they are immune to mind affecting spells is going to be ridiculously epic.



Right, except that people are proposing that Stag hop around the planes like crazy. From the SRD:

Luckily that's not me, since I advocate spending most of his time in a Dimensional Lock.

Chronos
2007-10-10, 02:58 PM
Where are people getting the idea that Mind Black prevents the gods from knowing about you? It says that it protects against even Wish spells used to gain information, but there's nothing that says anything about gods. And unless otherwise specified, mortal magic is still nothing compared to the gods.

As for the Gate trick (which is probably overpowered, and not meant to work that way, but *shrug*, RAW), Stag doesn't need to be on another plane for it to work, only Wolf. Consider: I can Gate in a solar from Celestia, even though the solar is not extraplanar on Celestia. All that matters is that the solar is extraplanar on the plane I'm on. Likewise, Wolf can go to his own personal Genesis plane, where Stag would be extraplanar, and Gate in Stag from there. Note that Gate doesn't actually tell you where the target creature was before you summoned it, so it's not a divination, and so is not stopped by Mind Blank.

psychoticbarber
2007-10-10, 03:03 PM
It's psionic.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm

If it's Psionic, how does a Wizard 20 use it?

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 03:12 PM
As for the Gate trick (which is probably overpowered, and not meant to work that way, but *shrug*, RAW), Stag doesn't need to be on another plane for it to work, only Wolf. Consider: I can Gate in a solar from Celestia, even though the solar is not extraplanar on Celestia. All that matters is that the solar is extraplanar on the plane I'm on. Likewise, Wolf can go to his own personal Genesis plane, where Stag would be extraplanar, and Gate in Stag from there. Note that Gate doesn't actually tell you where the target creature was before you summoned it, so it's not a divination, and so is not stopped by Mind Blank.

You can gate in something with the extraplanar subtype. Does Stag have the subtype when you cast the spell? No. Therefore it cannot effect him. Technically you could cast a spell with a target of you on a clone that is still growing by that logic, since it will become you. The future is not the present.

Chronos
2007-10-10, 04:17 PM
You can gate in something with the extraplanar subtype. Does Stag have the subtype when you cast the spell? No.And the solar doesn't have that subtype when you cast the spell, either. Nothing's extraplanar until after it's summoned. If you take that interpretation, then Gate can't get you any creature, because they're all living on their home planes.

Jarlax
2007-10-10, 08:22 PM
One problem, "Every Day at 8AM he will be given a task." Note that it does not say he will report to Pun-Pun to receive his task. They could have a Rary's Telepathic Bond going. Or Pun-Pun could just drop something off in a specific place. (And why would Wolf know that Stag gets his task at 8 in the morning?)


1. Pun-Pun is the overdiety. Few people know much about Ao so why would they know about Pun-Pun?
2. I'm fairly certain Pun-Pun wiped the memories of everyone who knew about him when he ascended.

for both cases, Pun-Pun has been selected so that the quest giver cannot be tampered with or fooled. if Pun-Pun is going to actively avoid or conceal himself (other than his mind blank) or interfere with the contest in any way Stag will win simply because he has Pun-Pun on his side. which is not the point of the challenge.

as for the 8 in the morning thing. its a challenge that they have a day to prepare for with a set time limit. That means they are both aware of the rules enough that Wolf knows Stag must complete a quest each day. a COP spell will tell Wolf who the quest giver is and when the quests are given and legend lore or more COP can tell Wolf where to find him because Pun-Pun should not be allowed to actively conceal or interfere.

and for the Rary's Telepathic Bond, it wont work for two reasons. first Mind blank makes you immune to divination spells and effects. second, because mind blank makes you protected from all devices and spells that detect, read or influence thoughts. so any similar psionic or nonmagical effect to communicate with Pun-Pun will fail, forcing Stag to be in the same physical location as Pun-Pun in order to receive his instructions.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 08:46 PM
for both cases, Pun-Pun has been selected so that the quest giver cannot be tampered with or fooled. if Pun-Pun is going to actively avoid or conceal himself (other than his mind blank) or interfere with the contest in any way Stag will win simply because he has Pun-Pun on his side. which is not the point of the challenge.

as for the 8 in the morning thing. its a challenge that they have a day to prepare for with a set time limit. That means they are both aware of the rules enough that Wolf knows Stag must complete a quest each day. a COP spell will tell Wolf who the quest giver is and when the quests are given and legend lore or more COP can tell Wolf where to find him because Pun-Pun should not be allowed to actively conceal or interfere.

and for the Rary's Telepathic Bond, it wont work for two reasons. first Mind blank makes you immune to divination spells and effects. second, because mind blank makes you protected from all devices and spells that detect, read or influence thoughts. so any similar psionic or nonmagical effect to communicate with Pun-Pun will fail, forcing Stag to be in the same physical location as Pun-Pun in order to receive his instructions.

Um...? That's stupid? Why would anyone go through the trouble of preventing mindreading if they were just going to tell the guy the answers anyway. Besides, Pun-Pun is the Over deity. No one is ever in the same place with him and he finds another way to give the message (like creating a random note in the pocket of whatever Stag is wearing.)

Add to that, Allowing other Gods to interfere would violate the neutrality of the challenge. As such failing to prevent other Gods from knowing what is happening would be a failure as judge. Otherwise why doesn't Wolf's God just kill Stag with a Bolt from above. (Aside from the fact that he doesn't know where Stag is.)

God's can't interfere in favor of either Wizard, and can't know anything about the contest either. Pun-Pun's job is to stop that. Throw in that the spells you are hoping for have a percentile chance that can never be rerolled and you are talking about rolling for the possibility to have a chance of meeting the over deity and from there watching another lvl 20 meet the over deity? lvl 20 Wizards are powerful, but they don't meet the Over Deity every day for months.


And the solar doesn't have that subtype when you cast the spell, either. Nothing's extraplanar until after it's summoned. If you take that interpretation, then Gate can't get you any creature, because they're all living on their home planes.

Fine then, ignore the requirements of the spell. Are you going to also ignore the part about unique beings not having to answer the call? Oh look, another reason that Gate can't call Joe Shmoe from the material Plane, much less someone who doesn't want to go.

Nonah_Me
2007-10-10, 08:55 PM
About the wish spell:

Could you not use wish to give the defender the appropriate extraplanar subtype and then gate him to wherever?

Edit: Bah, moot, says below.

Chronos
2007-10-10, 09:01 PM
Are you going to also ignore the part about unique beings not having to answer the call?Oops, forgot about that part, and didn't look it up before. You're correct; that blocks that particular bit of cheese. I still say that the "extraplanar" bit doesn't mean what you think it means, but for the current discussion, that's moot.

Gralamin
2007-10-10, 09:12 PM
Possible Wolf Tactics:
Find Stag once. In that encounter, apply an arcane mark to him, and then you teleport away.
Once at home, Inscribe Instant Summons on a gem with the name of that item. You can then use it to summon that item. Though the fun part is this line:


If the item is in the possession of another creature, the spell does not work, but you know who the possessor is and roughly where that creature is located when the summons occurs.
Since you have a good idea where he is, and who would suspect an arcane mark, You might have a chance to do him in.

Jarlax
2007-10-10, 09:37 PM
Um...? That's stupid? Why would anyone go through the trouble of preventing mindreading if they were just going to tell the guy the answers anyway. Besides, Pun-Pun is the Over deity. No one is ever in the same place with him and he finds another way to give the message (like creating a random note in the pocket of whatever Stag is wearing.)

Add to that, Allowing other Gods to interfere would violate the neutrality of the challenge. As such failing to prevent other Gods from knowing what is happening would be a failure as judge. Otherwise why doesn't Wolf's God just kill Stag with a Bolt from above. (Aside from the fact that he doesn't know where Stag is.)

Pun-Pun is a tool for the sake of not interfering with the quest giver by impersonating him or stag in order to interfere with the quests. the fact that he is a god should not stop Wolf from using spells. this is the point i was trying to make before. if your argument is Wolf cant do X because of something related to Pun-Pun then Stag will always win. and having Pun-Pun use his powers to give Stag his instructions is more of the same.


God's can't interfere in favor of either Wizard, and can't know anything about the contest either. Pun-Pun's job is to stop that. Throw in that the spells you are hoping for have a percentile chance that can never be rerolled and you are talking about rolling for the possibility to have a chance of meeting the over deity and from there watching another lvl 20 meet the over deity? lvl 20 Wizards are powerful, but they don't meet the Over Deity every day for months.

if were going to be using game world logic like "Stag shouldn't be meeting Pun-Pun every day for month, because it doesn't make sense" then Pun-Pun should not be involved because rank 21 deities have no care for mortals and would never bother to contact one to be an errand boy.

COP does not set a limit on the questions that can be asked, they are always answered but are limited to one word answers and may be a lie or have a percentage chance to not be known by the deity. the table which sets out which kind of deity you ask is only there to increase the chance of a correct answer at greater risk to the caster. the spell does not define any knowledge as out of bounds for the spell. only that a greater deity has a 88% of telling the truth.

if you have Pun-Pun interfere by giving instructions through divine means, have wolf's spells fail because Pun-Pun is involved, or otherwise make use of Pun-Puns overdiety status to argue in favor of Stag then the winner is Stag because if Pun-Pun is going to interfere he might as well just kill wolf outright.

Jacob Orlove
2007-10-10, 11:16 PM
Fine then, ignore the requirements of the spell. Are you going to also ignore the part about unique beings not having to answer the call? Oh look, another reason that Gate can't call Joe Shmoe from the material Plane, much less someone who doesn't want to go.
That's an interesting definition of "unique being". Let's take a look at the spell:

The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures.
The spell text is very clear that you can in fact call specific, named individuals. You cannot call the Tarrasque, because it is a unique being, but you can certainly call Fred the Archmage.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 11:53 PM
That's an interesting definition of "unique being". Let's take a look at the spell:

The spell text is very clear that you can in fact call specific, named individuals. You cannot call the Tarrasque, because it is a unique being, but you can certainly call Fred the Archmage.

Actually, the spell text says that no unique beings can be called. And lacking a specific definition for that, we must assume that it means the english word. As such Gate apparently always grants the called individual the choice.

If you want to argue intent then I think we can all agree that it does not intend for every human to be callable. If it did there wouldn't be much point in the "extraplanar" descriptor.

@Jarlax

Pun-Pun is a tool to assign quests without having it be possible to figure out those quests. There is a reason that it was made random quests, there was a reason that Pun-Pun was Mindblanked and is an Over-Deity. It does not consist of helping Stag to just plane not tell Wolf. And there is no reason that he would ever have to meat Pun-Pun in person. The idea of using COP to find the home of the Over-Deity and then set up a camping trip is just silly.\

The idea is simple. Wolf must find Stag and kill him. Not Wolf must wait someplace that Stag must show up so that Wolf can kill him. The only reason that the quests exist at all are to prevent Stag from hiding on his own pocket plane and then Sequestering himself.

namo
2007-10-11, 12:49 AM
The idea is simple. Wolf must find Stag and kill him. Not Wolf must wait someplace that Stag must show up so that Wolf can kill him.

Why not ? That qualifies as "finding" for me.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 02:03 AM
Why not ? That qualifies as "finding" for me.

Except that if we wanted to allow Wolf to know exactly where Stag had to be we wouldn't have Mindblanked Pun-Pun as the assigner, or any tasks at all. We'd just say, "Stag show up here at 12, Wolf will be waiting."

namo
2007-10-11, 02:14 AM
No, because information-gathering is part of the challenge. Don't you think a "victory via Mindblank" (since Wolf can apparently only use divinations targetting Stag) is trite ?
For the record, I still think Stag wins, but some days Wolf may be able to track him down.

Jarlax
2007-10-11, 02:36 AM
Actually, the spell text says that no unique beings can be called. And lacking a specific definition for that, we must assume that it means the english word. As such Gate apparently always grants the called individual the choice.

when the spell states Unique it is using the monster manual definition, a single ceature that there can be no additional copies of, such as dieties or the Tarrasque.

but the line before that states you can summon a particular being or type of being. in this case if Stag was human we are summoning a human being and in this case the particular human being, Stag.

if you can make stag extraplanar or not, or if he is already if Wolf is not on the same plane as him, or whatever, is a seperate argument.



Pun-Pun is a tool to assign quests without having it be possible to figure out those quests. There is a reason that it was made random quests, there was a reason that Pun-Pun was Mindblanked and is an Over-Deity. It does not consist of helping Stag to just plane not tell Wolf. And there is no reason that he would ever have to meat Pun-Pun in person. The idea of using COP to find the home of the Over-Deity and then set up a camping trip is just silly.

your using your own interperiatation of Pun-Puns power and actions to defend your argument and returning to "wolf cannot to X because Pun-Pun does Y".

it is not stated that Pun-Pun has reached godhood in the outline, it is not stated that he will actively make no physical contact with Stag. it is only stated that he exists, has his abilities as Pun-Pun (which do not automatically give him godhood, but are one of the potetial applications of his powers) and has used those abilities to create a perminant indistructable mind blank on himself.

so your defence against my proposal is that i am wrong because Pun-Pun would think and act in the way you say he would. but i can make the same claim, that i am right because he acts and thinks the way i say he would. which leaves that argument moot. my approach works except in the instance that Pun-Pun is a 21+ diety who actively avoids his task assignment from being detected or intercepted or observerd by using his powers as a diety to give them directly to Stag.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 06:54 AM
your using your own interperiatation of Pun-Puns power and actions to defend your argument and returning to "wolf cannot to X because Pun-Pun does Y".

it is not stated that Pun-Pun has reached godhood in the outline, it is not stated that he will actively make no physical contact with Stag. it is only stated that he exists, has his abilities as Pun-Pun (which do not automatically give him godhood, but are one of the potetial applications of his powers) and has used those abilities to create a perminant indistructable mind blank on himself.

so your defence against my proposal is that i am wrong because Pun-Pun would think and act in the way you say he would. but i can make the same claim, that i am right because he acts and thinks the way i say he would. which leaves that argument moot. my approach works except in the instance that Pun-Pun is a 21+ diety who actively avoids his task assignment from being detected or intercepted or observerd by using his powers as a diety to give them directly to Stag.

Try again. This time look at the context. At first the original poster left out Pun-Pun. Then someone said "well Wolf can just find out what his tasks are and then wait for him there." Then the origional poster added in Pun-Pun, saying that:
A)Only Pun-Pun and Stag knew the tasks.
B)Wolf could not obtain this information from Pun-Pun.

As such, it is clear that Pun-Pun was created for the sole purpose of making certain that Wolf had to find Stag, not find out what Stags tasks where and then go there. The idea of finding the place where he receives his tasks is equally a cop out.

And once again, why would Stag have to show up in person to meet Pun-Pun? It says that Stag is given a task, not that he reports to receive it. That means that he can be given that task no matter where he is, including inside his MMM. Pun-Pun has many options in the more mundane methods of communication too. He could use the Message spell, or his familiar or any number of other ways.

Dausuul
2007-10-11, 07:45 AM
Try again. This time look at the context. At first the original poster left out Pun-Pun. Then someone said "well Wolf can just find out what his tasks are and then wait for him there." Then the origional poster added in Pun-Pun, saying that:
A)Only Pun-Pun and Stag knew the tasks.
B)Wolf could not obtain this information from Pun-Pun.

As such, it is clear that Pun-Pun was created for the sole purpose of making certain that Wolf had to find Stag, not find out what Stags tasks where and then go there. The idea of finding the place where he receives his tasks is equally a cop out.

And once again, why would Stag have to show up in person to meet Pun-Pun? It says that Stag is given a task, not that he reports to receive it. That means that he can be given that task no matter where he is, including inside his MMM. Pun-Pun has many options in the more mundane methods of communication too. He could use the Message spell, or his familiar or any number of other ways.

Actually, I included Pun-Pun early on; the change I later made was to address the question of "What happens if Wolf makes one of Stag's tasks impossible to complete?"

The reason I included Pun-Pun was to prevent Wolf from using the task-giver as a means of getting to Stag. It's perfectly acceptable for Wolf to try to find out what Stag's task is and set a trap for him, that's part of why Stag has tasks in the first place, but any attempt to spy on Pun-Pun--by mundane or magical means--is doomed to failure. He's Pun-Pun. You just can't do that.

Also, one other point that came up: Both parties know the rules of the contest from the start, so Wolf does know when Stag receives his assignments.

Updating the original post to reflect this.

Jarlax
2007-10-11, 08:59 AM
now that it has been clarified how Pun-Pun delivers his instructions i will amend my original strategy.

just change the original COP's target, it is now cast in 10-20 minute periods and asks a greater deity for the location of a person stag is talking to or a monster stag is fighting. no part of COP forbids a question being asked multiple times. so once wolf has the information he needs he teleports to the location of his target and secures them, forcing Stag to return to the location if he is not already there or escaped upon wolf's arrival, because he is not making the task impossible, but to succeed stag has to get through wolf. at which time they fight it out to see who is stronger.

the greatest risk at this point would be wolf failing an int check and taking Int/Cha damage, but i feel like at level 20 he could get his Int modifier over +16 so he never fails.

it would make the challenge more interesting if COP was banned on both sides or its powers were limited. although its not entirely fair on Wolf since its assumed just about any information gathering spell he casts will fail at this point against stag's defenses. but at the spells maximum potential you can do stuff like this:

COP Boccob (the spell says nothing about a random extraplanar creature so there is nothing wrong with specifying who you contact) and ask him where Stag will teleport to sometime in the next month, and when. boccob can see 17 weeks into the future and past any even relating to his portfolio which using an arcane spell would certainly fall under. Wolf now knows when, where and how Stag will arrive at a location and can set up a ambush.

of course this is an example. all greater deities have the same future sight for their portfolios so you could just as easily use nerull, vecna or wee jas to get similar effects relating to Stag casting any spell or the when and where of Stag's death or any of his target monster's deaths.

COP is not direct divination against Stag so all his spells fail to protect him, the future sight of the gods is a physical attribute, not a spell like ability that can be protected from either.

KoDT69
2007-10-11, 12:25 PM
What would happen if Stag were able to WISH that his birth name had really been Steve or something, but was only known by Stag for some reason? Divinations would rely on a true name, not a nickname right? I could be wrong, but it was a passing thought. Stag would be impossible to find if that works because all the divinations would not be aimed at him :smallbiggrin:

namo
2007-10-11, 12:42 PM
COP Boccob (the spell says nothing about a random extraplanar creature so there is nothing wrong with specifying who you contact)
That's an unfortunate interpretation. It says nothing about choosing whom you contact, so I don't see why you could.

@KoDT : no, you can describe your relation to the person when asking a question. "The guy I need to kill" is generally valid.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-11, 12:42 PM
divinations work on a clear definition of what you're talking about unless the spell in question lists the true name as a requirement. Just like ressurrections where if you can unambiguously identify the intended target you shouldn't have to use their name per say. and by the time you're a 20th level wizard you should be famous enough to have certain distinctive characteristics and personal details to be the target of a spell, something like "the wizard know as stag that defeated the warlord x, fought at the battle of y and invented the revolutionary spell z"

That being said you can't target stag himself due to mindblank.

Chronos
2007-10-11, 12:45 PM
the greatest risk at this point would be wolf failing an int check and taking Int/Cha damage, but i feel like at level 20 he could get his Int modifier over +16 so he never fails.That'd be tough. If he starts at 18, gets 5 points from levelling, and 5 points from Wishes, and then wears an item with a +6 enhancement bonus, that brings him to 34 Int, or a +12 bonus. If he's a Grey Elf instead of Human, he could get that up to +13. That still leaves 6 or 8 more int points that he needs to get, and I don't know of anything that would stack with what he already has, nor any way to get larger bonuses of those types.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-11, 12:54 PM
and if he screws up the role then he's out of it for the duration of the contest, add in that even trying to contact a greater deity involves the not insignificant chance of getting bad advice and it quickly becomes a dubious idea to use COP, of course wolf could just use a hireling cleric or pay money for spellcasting from a temple for better info, which wouldn't eat into his dayly spells.

Aquillion
2007-10-11, 01:42 PM
If it's Psionic, how does a Wizard 20 use it?Hello? Wizard 20?

He finds a Psion 20 and threatens to beat them up if they don't cast manifest it for him, that's how.

Jothki
2007-10-11, 03:16 PM
What would happen if Stag were able to WISH that his birth name had really been Steve or something, but was only known by Stag for some reason? Divinations would rely on a true name, not a nickname right? I could be wrong, but it was a passing thought. Stag would be impossible to find if that works because all the divinations would not be aimed at him :smallbiggrin:

Undo Misfortune can only remake a round's worth of reality, over the scope of the effects of a single action. Remaking decades of reality is well outside of Wish's scope, the best it could do would be to try to compel everyone to believe that Stag's name is Steve, and it would probably have a ridiculously low save DC (it would probably require a critical failure for a level 1 commoner) considering how many minds it would have to simulutaneously affect.

GoC
2007-10-11, 04:00 PM
btw: Pun-Pun has infinite reach (and can reach through planes) and so can drop a small bit of paper with the relevant information into Stag's pocket each morning.

Simpler then the "beaming".

Jarlax
2007-10-11, 06:49 PM
and if he screws up the role then he's out of it for the duration of the contest, add in that even trying to contact a greater deity involves the not insignificant chance of getting bad advice and it quickly becomes a dubious idea to use COP, of course wolf could just use a hireling cleric or pay money for spellcasting from a temple for better info, which wouldn't eat into his dayly spells.

correct, he can get a lie, and while the chance is tiny, you can protect against it through a +16 int modifier because then you can perform risk free question asking and repeat each question twice to ensure you detect a lie.

and correct again, finding a cleric of Boccob who can cast commune has zero risk compared to that of COP. i only presented COP because it uses Wolfs immediate resources. its less interesting if the full caster's answer to a full caster is a cleric or other PC.


That's an unfortunate interpretation. It says nothing about choosing whom you contact, so I don't see why you could.

true, however most related novels and the like depict the spell and those like it with the ability to call the same creature each time and while spells often work differently in novels for dramatic effect it is not an unreasonable interpretation of the spell description. building a relationship with an extraplanar creature so that you can do away with the chance of a lie or random answer is a good strategy.

the spell states that you use your mind to travel the outer planes to ask the question. so why not specify which plane and which planar creature. if you assisted a planar creature in the past why would you not contact them in order to better you chances at a correct answer even if the risk of destroying your mind remains.

of course wolf (or some saps he tricks into doing it for him so he avoid the int damage) could just spam the spell for a month until he gets one of the deities who can help him. in the core pantheon 5/19 are capable of answering the questions i posed above. however if Stag is core-nonhuman that increases to 6, and a clever PC can make arguments for the others in some tricky way.

but if you still disagree you can just use mostlyharmful's suggestion and use a cleric whose spell already states which god he contacts.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 07:41 PM
correct, he can get a lie, and while the chance is tiny, you can protect against it through a +16 int modifier because then you can perform risk free question asking and repeat each question twice to ensure you detect a lie.

Except that like all such spells it states that you use the same percentage roll no matter how many times you ask the question. As such if you ask the same question a thousand times he would get a thousand lies.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-11, 07:43 PM
Except that like all such spells it states that you use the same percentage roll no matter how many times you ask the question. As such if you ask the same question a thousand times he would get a thousand lies.

Untrue.

You send your mind to another plane of existence (an Elemental Plane or some plane farther removed) in order to receive advice and information from powers there. (See the accompanying table for possible consequences and results of the attempt.) The powers reply in a language you understand, but they resent such contact and give only brief answers to your questions. (All questions are answered with “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer.)

You must concentrate on maintaining the spell (a standard action) in order to ask questions at the rate of one per round. A question is answered by the power during the same round. For every two caster levels, you may ask one question.

Contact with minds far removed from your home plane increases the probability that you will incur a decrease to Intelligence and Charisma, but the chance of the power knowing the answer, as well as the probability of the entity answering correctly, are likewise increased by moving to distant planes.

Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.)

On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.

d% is rolled for the result shown on the table:



There is no clause, anywhere, stating that you use the same accuracy roll. Of course, asking a god the same question would logically yield the same result, but still :smallbiggrin:

deadseashoals
2007-10-11, 08:10 PM
That'd be tough. If he starts at 18, gets 5 points from levelling, and 5 points from Wishes, and then wears an item with a +6 enhancement bonus, that brings him to 34 Int, or a +12 bonus. If he's a Grey Elf instead of Human, he could get that up to +13. That still leaves 6 or 8 more int points that he needs to get, and I don't know of anything that would stack with what he already has, nor any way to get larger bonuses of those types.

Polymorph any object will give you want you're looking for.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 08:55 PM
Untrue.


There is no clause, anywhere, stating that you use the same accuracy roll. Of course, asking a god the same question would logically yield the same result, but still :smallbiggrin:

You're right. I was thinking of the spells that would actually maybe prove useful. As opposed to COP which specifically states that it answers questions in yes/no/irrelevant form.

So when you ask Boccob where Stag will teleport to your answer will be?

When you ask what his quests are?

COP is out. Looks like you need another plan.

Jarlax
2007-10-11, 10:49 PM
You're right. I was thinking of the spells that would actually maybe prove useful. As opposed to COP which specifically states that it answers questions in yes/no/irrelevant form.

So when you ask Boccob where Stag will teleport to your answer will be?

When you ask what his quests are?

COP is out. Looks like you need another plan.

that would be where you

A) a play the 20 questions game to infer your answer from yes or no answers

or

B) use the part of the spell description that says that


The powers reply in a language you understand, but they resent such contact and give only brief answers to your questions. (All questions are answered with “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer.)


you have 10 questions to ask every time you cast the spell so while it can take multiple casts and multiple extremely well worded questions to get the informaiton you want. you are under no time restriction unless your searching for the monster, or person he is speaking with for 1 hour. and even then you can get in 4 casts with enough time to interrupt the 1 hour discussion and lure Stag to you.

Edit: and if that is not to your liking i can still go use commune, which allows for 20 questions, with 5 word answers and goes directly to Boccob without fail.

Kaelik
2007-10-12, 02:57 AM
that would be where you

A) a play the 20 questions game to infer your answer from yes or no answers

or

B) use the part of the spell description that says that



you have 10 questions to ask every time you cast the spell so while it can take multiple casts and multiple extremely well worded questions to get the informaiton you want. you are under no time restriction unless your searching for the monster, or person he is speaking with for 1 hour. and even then you can get in 4 casts with enough time to interrupt the 1 hour discussion and lure Stag to you.

I know you don't have Int 34, but please tell me what kind of one word questions you could ask that would help you infer this sort of thing?

And the one word answers part is only if you ask a yes/no question in which a straight answer would be misleading.


Edit: and if that is not to your liking i can still go use commune, which allows for 20 questions, with 5 word answers and goes directly to Boccob without fail.

Right, and that's the one that has a percentage role which if it fails means you will never get the answer you want. Also brings in the, How does a Wizard find a Wizard? By being a Cleric, nonsense.

hylian chozo
2007-10-12, 12:43 PM
wolf could wait a day before casting legend lore or finding a bard. one of stag's quests is to kill a cr20 creature, i am fairly sure that information would get around.
"hey, did you hear about that guy that killed the tarrasque? they say he owns a castle at(insert location here)"

Rex Blunder
2007-10-12, 12:49 PM
Even if legend lore doesn't work, I think the idea of keeping tabs on all, or a statistically significant chunk, of the CR20 creatures seems like one of the most promising ideas so far for finding Stag. When Wolf sees one of the ancient dragons getting killed, he teleports there post haste.

So, how many CR20s are there likely to be in the average campaign world, and does Wolf have enough magic to pull that off?

Kaelik
2007-10-12, 12:51 PM
wolf could wait a day before casting legend lore or finding a bard. one of stag's quests is to kill a cr20 creature, i am fairly sure that information would get around.
"hey, did you hear about that guy that killed the tarrasque? they say he owns a castle at(insert location here)"

Information can only "get around" if it is actually known.

If he teleports to find the CR 20, kills it, then teleports back to his MMM/village he is hiding in/wherever he is hiding (note that he would not hide anywhere that someone believes belongs to him) how on Earth does anyone know where he is?


Even if legend lore doesn't work, I think the idea of keeping tabs on all, or a statistically significant chunk, of the CR20 creatures seems like one of the most promising ideas so far for finding Stag. When Wolf sees one of the ancient dragons getting killed, he teleports there post haste.

So, how many CR20s are there likely to be in the average campaign world, and does Wolf have enough magic to pull that off?

Yeah, but getting killed? This is a high level Wizard, he's not going to have an intermediate stage. Just alive and dead.

Grey Paladin
2007-10-12, 01:05 PM
Can't Stag just hunt down Wolf so he can complete his tasks in peace?

Thinker
2007-10-12, 01:13 PM
Can't Stag just hunt down Wolf so he can complete his tasks in peace?

Stag runs into the same problem as Wolf if Wolf doesn't want to be found.

Dausuul
2007-10-12, 01:42 PM
Stag runs into the same problem as Wolf if Wolf doesn't want to be found.

Yup. It's a legitimate tactic, and Wolf is certainly well-advised to look to his own defense, but Stag faces an even tougher problem than Wolf does, since Wolf has no tasks to make him emerge from hiding.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-12, 02:41 PM
Information can only "get around" if it is actually known.

If he teleports to find the CR 20, kills it, then teleports back to his MMM/village he is hiding in/wherever he is hiding (note that he would not hide anywhere that someone believes belongs to him) how on Earth does anyone know where he is?

From Teleport, Greater:

"In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case, you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which your are teleporting (such as a detailed description from someone else or a particularly precise map). If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location."

"I'll just scry!" you declare.

Ah, but bear in mind that you've, at best, "heard of" the subject, which means it's entitled to at least a +5 bonus on the Will save. Furthermore, what if the CR 20 encounter is also able to -- and does in fact -- cast Mind Blank?

Once again, you're granting wizards even more power than they actually possess (and that takes some doing).

Kaelik
2007-10-12, 03:19 PM
From Teleport, Greater:

"In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case, you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which your are teleporting (such as a detailed description from someone else or a particularly precise map). If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location."

"I'll just scry!" you declare.

Ah, but bear in mind that you've, at best, "heard of" the subject, which means it's entitled to at least a +5 bonus on the Will save. Furthermore, what if the CR 20 encounter is also able to -- and does in fact -- cast Mind Blank?

Once again, you're granting wizards even more power than they actually possess (and that takes some doing).

I think we have a disagreement on what exactly the tasks consist of. Besides the fact that CR 20 is only one of several random encounters. I see the examples being very specific and informing Stag of what he needs to do. IE: Go kill this specific CR 20. Go talk to this specific person. As such Stag would be given enough information to get where he needs to go.

I mean how can you declare Wolf the winner because Stag didn't receive a detailed description, and so had to spend several hours flying cross country only to not make it there in time to accomplish his task?

Lets look at something else silly.

In this example Wolf is apparently tracking every single CR 20 in the world, and teleporting to reach them the instant they enter combat. How does he manage this? And secondly, I'm pretty sure we aren't talking about class levels here, especially not a Wizard, since that would really screw things up and defeat the purpose of the whole thing.

Anyway, that's ignoring that most CR 20s don't have a will save that will make a Wizards save more then half the time.

psychoticbarber
2007-10-14, 11:18 PM
Hello? Wizard 20?

He finds a Psion 20 and threatens to beat them up if they don't cast manifest it for him, that's how.

At that point it's a Wiz 20 and a Psion 20 vs. a Wiz 20. It's no longer an "equal" battle :smalltongue:.

Mr. Friendly
2007-10-15, 06:53 AM
I don't play DnD, but from the description of wish in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), I'm pretty sure it can't do that.

Actually, Wish can do anything you want it to.


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

A carefully worded wish is technically able to fulfill anything, what else happens is DM fiat.

Jothki
2007-10-15, 07:02 AM
Why does this scenario require Pun Pun or mandatory tasks? Just assume that Stag is trying to have as normal a life as possible that a level 20 caster who is being hunted by another level 20 caster can have, which involves frequently needing to perform tasks on the list. Wolf can do whatever he wants to anyone, and it's up to Stag to stop Wolf's actions, or at least recognize that they happened and be tipped off.


Actually, Wish can do anything you want it to.

A carefully worded wish is technically able to fulfill anything, what else happens is DM fiat.

The wording for the spell specifically mentions the possibility of a partial fulfilment, which wouldn't be an issue if a carefully worded Wish could do anything. To me, a good way to handle a wish spell would be to have it carry out the spirit of the request (including avoiding negative side effects) if the request is within reasonable bounds of the spell, creatively carry out the letter of the request (including any unavoidable side effects, but not going out of its way to create them) within the reasonable bounds of its power if the spirit of the request is beyond it, or partially carry out the request if it is strongly worded enough that it cannot even carry out the full letter.

Dausuul
2007-10-15, 07:47 AM
Why does this scenario require Pun Pun or mandatory tasks? Just assume that Stag is trying to have as normal a life as possible that a level 20 caster who is being hunted by another level 20 caster can have, which involves frequently needing to perform tasks on the list. Wolf can do whatever he wants to anyone, and it's up to Stag to stop Wolf's actions, or at least recognize that they happened and be tipped off.

The scenario has mandatory tasks and Pun-Pun because otherwise the thread would devolve into a huge argument over exactly what constitutes "as normal a life as possible," and whether Stag could lead one while sitting in his MMM all day, and... yeah. Read the "Full Caster's Answer to Stealth Skills (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58941)" thread to see what I'm talking about.

Wizards lead lives so far out of the ordinary that it's very hard to forge a consensus on what would constitute normal life for a 20th-level wizard. Therefore, I decided to head off the argument by laying out an explicit set of rules for what Stag has to do.


Actually, Wish can do anything you want it to.

A carefully worded wish is technically able to fulfill anything, what else happens is DM fiat.

Not exactly. Anything a wish does, if it goes beyond the listed effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), is DM fiat. Allowing your wish to work is just as much DM fiat as making it fail, because the spell does not say "Wish can produce any effect you want it to." It says, "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these." (Emphasis mine.) Whether you succeed or fail is totally up to the DM, and I think it's generally wise to assume that as soon as you venture into the territory where your DM is explicitly invited to screw you over, you will in fact be screwed over, because twisting the intent of wishes is the sort of thing DMs live for.

Chronos
2007-10-15, 11:16 AM
It occurs to me that, if the challenge were to take place between levels 9 and 14 inclusive, then Wolf would have an easy win. He just stays in his own impenetrable fortress, and sends Stag a Nightmare spell (or two or three, in case Stag makes his save) every night. A wizard who can never re-memorize spells and who takes 1d10 damage every night is a dead wizard. Unfortunately, once Stag hits level 15, a Mindblank every day will completely foil this plan.

Kaelik
2007-10-15, 12:06 PM
It occurs to me that, if the challenge were to take place between levels 9 and 14 inclusive, then Wolf would have an easy win. He just stays in his own impenetrable fortress, and sends Stag a Nightmare spell (or two or three, in case Stag makes his save) every night. A wizard who can never re-memorize spells and who takes 1d10 damage every night is a dead wizard. Unfortunately, once Stag hits level 15, a Mindblank every day will completely foil this plan.

Or being an Elf, or being a Necropolitian. But you know how rare those elven Wizards are.:smallwink:

Chronos
2007-10-15, 02:08 PM
Sure, but I think the OP specified that both Wolf and Stag are humans.

Kaelik
2007-10-15, 03:12 PM
Sure, but I think the OP specified that both Wolf and Stag are humans.

Actually what he said was:


There are two 20th-level wizards, Wolf and Stag. Both are straight-up wizards with no PrCs and 32-point buy, although they are allowed to be specialists if they wish. They start in secret fortresses, neither knowing the other's location, and each has a day to prep spells before the contest begins.

And since the best Wizard builds are Gray Elves, and quite a few Wizards are Elves, even at 7-14 Nightmare would still be at best a spotty solution. Plus isn't it a will save that gives them bonuses based on how well you (don't) know them? I could see any Wizard making that saving throw often enough, since they get like a +10 anyway.

Plus any Human can become a Necropolitian, and should if they start at level one and go to level 20.

Jasdoif
2007-10-15, 03:38 PM
Hello? Wizard 20?

He finds a Psion 20 and threatens to beat them up if they don't cast manifest it for him, that's how.Bet he could do the same to get metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm), too. Though it'd need to be a Seer 20 in that case.

Chronos
2007-10-15, 03:45 PM
OK, I guess I misread that. Yeah, Grey Elves (if allowed) make the best wizards anyway, even without considering the "no sleep" bit.

Does Necropolitan carry any alignment restrictions? Because if all of the high-level wizards in the world are evil, then we're seriously screwed.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-10-15, 03:54 PM
Actually, I'd have set it up in a bit of a Spy VS Spy way- namely, when Stag gets his orders, Wolf gets an important piece of information. Namely, "Stag will be out and about at this time of day.", or possibly including "Stag will be out and about at this time and at this location", but not actually telling Wolf what Stag will be doing. It's hard enough fighting a level 20 wizard, especially if you have to blow spells to scry on him...

Kaelik
2007-10-15, 05:40 PM
OK, I guess I misread that. Yeah, Grey Elves (if allowed) make the best wizards anyway, even without considering the "no sleep" bit.

Does Necropolitan carry any alignment restrictions? Because if all of the high-level wizards in the world are evil, then we're seriously screwed.

No it does not, It turns one into an intelligent undead, with no alignment restrictions. It is a ceremony, and can be done against ones will, but will not automatically make one evil if done. (Though it makes a great deal of sense for most Necropolitians to be evil, since generally speaking it is done for the desire of eternal life, which while not evil, is not exactly good, and tends to attract the evils more often.)


Actually, I'd have set it up in a bit of a Spy VS Spy way- namely, when Stag gets his orders, Wolf gets an important piece of information. Namely, "Stag will be out and about at this time of day.", or possibly including "Stag will be out and about at this time and at this location", but not actually telling Wolf what Stag will be doing. It's hard enough fighting a level 20 wizard, especially if you have to blow spells to scry on him...

Well no one is blowing any spells to scry on anyone thanks to Mindblank. At this point (ignoring for the moment "Extra Super Greater Wishes") the only way that Wolf could possibly find Stag is by having a Cleric cast some diety talking spell (The Wizard one is pretty much useless for this case) and then hope really hard on the percentage role that it comes out low.

While giving Wolf information on where Stag will be makes things more interesting, it also defeats the purpose of the challenge. The idea is to see if Stag can live his life hiding most of the time, and then coming out to have some important effect on the world, but still never get killed.

If you tell Wolf where he's going to be, or give him any information like that, then you might as well just give them both a time and place, tell them to buff up and have at it.

Jothki
2007-10-15, 06:01 PM
It seems to me like a far more interesting question would be whether Stag can keep himself protected without constantly being in hiding.

Kaelik
2007-10-15, 06:38 PM
It seems to me like a far more interesting question would be whether Stag can keep himself protected without constantly being in hiding.

That's the point of the "Do X every day" system. The question of whether or not he could stay alive without casting Mindblank? Answer no. Of course if Wolf doesn't either then Stag can just hunt him down. Of course if they don't sleep in MMMs/someplace equally safe and don't have Mindblank up 24/7 then they are both stupid enough to not have Contingencies and walk everywhere. There's a reason Wizards have long duration spells, and it's to have them up all the time.

Roderick_BR
2007-10-15, 07:10 PM
So, long story short: At higher levels, it's boring to play wizards.

Idea Man
2007-10-15, 07:14 PM
I would like to begin by saying "I think wish is cheese". It should be an open-ended epic spell, depending on the effect. However, I couldn't help but think of a use...

Wolf: "I wish that every copy of mindblank that Stag owns would be destroyed after he next casts that spell."

Problem #1: DM might say "Get bent". Oh well.
Problem #2: Stag might have another of that spell memorized. Of course, It would take a whole day to recopy it, and he has to spend his days doing chores. He can recopy into the night, but if he doesn't get a full night's sleep, he can't rememorize spells. Remember the 20th lvl monster he fought yesterday, and the one he has to fight tomorrow?
Advantage #1: There will be a window of a few hours where Stag does not have the protection of mindblank and can be found. At his weakest, too, right before he can rememorize.
Problem #3: Stag might use his free time to go shopping, pick up some more mindblank scrolls. Of course, bulk shopping shouldn't be possible, he has a limited time frame, and a limit to how many teleports he can afford to memorize in one day. Darn monster.
Advantage #2: The more power and energy Stag uses to shop, the greater the power deficit when Wolf catches up to him. Wolf can still pursue other courses of action, after all.

Of course, if I were Stag, I'd wish for the first monster to attack Wolf first, then go in and finish off the contest peacemeal. :smallamused:

I hate wish.