PDA

View Full Version : Sketching Out A High Magic Setting



Elves
2019-07-23, 11:40 PM
I'm trying to sketch out a high-magic 3.5 setting based on various posts from this forum.

That means several Tippyverse elements, but no abuse of magical traps since that makes things too easy. The same goes for Wish loops or thermodynamic/infinite energy exploits.

Please suggest and link stuff that I've missed.


Contents
1. Society
2. Tech and Materials
3. Warfare
4. Factions
5. Classes
6. Religion
7. Bestiary


Cities

Cities are linked by teleportation circles, leading to an “Infinite City”: a megalopolis without regard to geography that may even span multiple planes and planets. A few city-states have resisted incorporation into this sprawl by heavily regulating teleportation.


Augmentation

Anyone who can afford it gets magically enhanced. This goes far beyond cosmetic changes. With the right procedures you can gain psionic powers, flight, immortality, increased ability scores, feats, spell-like abilities, and more. Anyone left in their normal state (like many of the urban poor, and especially the rural poor who live outside the Infinite City) is pitied and profoundly disadvantaged.

There are huge Transformation Facilities where these processes are carried out. Almost every facility contains its own sacred pool with a resident water weird, who uses her healing powers to help patients endure and recuperate from their augmentation process.

Thus, any citizen who's well off is an exotic and probably immortal transhuman with grafts, psionic and incarnum powers, magic gems in their body, and so on, making them powerful despite their lack of class levels. And all but the very poor can be expected to have at least one or two augmentations. The beggar’s option is to try and catch lycanthropy in order to enhance yourself physically, but as you'd expect this often goes wrong and turns those who try it into ravening mutts. A solid middle class option is necropolitanism — simple undeath — to stop aging.

Source: Gavinfoxx (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z9NJIs751Af3i0IEIJwCkIp9H9YFiZYZ7u-wmYVaheI/edit)


Labor

Cheap labor is provided by unseen servants and undead servitors.


Resources

With abuse of traps and infinite loops ruled out, we get a society that is not truly post-scarcity but is still very rich thanks to the creations of artificers and the powers of wizards.


Money

While there's normal money, there's also ambrosia (from BoED), a substance that can be used to create magic items, which serves as a currency-like commodity in most of the world.

Poor people without magical capabilities -- who have nothing but their bodies to offer -- often find themselves forced to labor in sexual sweatshops, where they're given pleasure-enhancing drugs and forced to bang within energy transformation fields while distilled joy is cast on them in order to create ambrosia.


Psychic Reformation

Psychic reformation is a popular if expensive service that people use to change their personality, knowledge, talents, inclinations, and habits. It also gets used as a means of brainwashing people, rehabilitating criminals, and so on.


Civic Infrastructure

Healthcare - Urban centers contain a civic altar of resurrection, or even an altar of true resurrection in the richest areas. This doesn't stop death from old age, so despite benefiting from these amenities most middle and working class citizens will save up throughout their lives either for transit to the timeless Astral Plane where they can retire, or for the Crucimigration Ritual to become necropolitan. Healing stones serve most non-resurrection needs.

Libraries - Information facilities contain publicly accessible tablets of knowledge. Citizens simply pick up the appropriate tablet, note down what they had wanted to know, and then move on, leaving it for the next person. (Many citizens have the Jack of All Trades feat, letting them take full advantage of the tablets.) Rare parts of the Infinite City offer a tablet of all knowledge as well, though you'll have to book an appointment in advance.

Cafeterias - Civic cafeterias for the poor provide faucets of create food, plus faucets of prestidigation for flavoring (though those are usually broken).

Transportation - Some teleportation circles are restricted access but many are free to use so long as you have proper documentation. Most are ten feet wide, so while they can fit a lot of traffic and goods through, they do form spacial chokepoints. For other travel needs, the wealthy hitch rides via dominated nightmares (the largest provider is called Nightmare Coach) who astral project them where needed.

Control Weather Towers help control the weather.


Astral Heaven

A common form of retirement is to save up and pay for passage to the Astral Plane, which as a timeless plane you don't age on (nor can you have kids there, etcetera...). Huge, lazy retirement communities have been built in its silver expanse.

Voidstone

Voidstone is an extremely hazardous material: shadow energy compressed to the point of solidity. It’s what spheres of annihilation are made of, but those are hard to make. Voidstone in its raw state isn't controllable like a sphere, but still annihilates everything it touches; it’s used to create impenetrable barriers, horrific grenades, demolition devices, and some very frightening wastepaper baskets. Some wackos even dare use it to make weapons and armor, despite the risk to themselves.

Source: Jowgen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480986-The-Voidstone-Arsenal-For-when-you-really-want-stuff-gone)


Agriculture

In industrial-scale farms, timed spell-clocks cast plant growth on the crops at regular intervals.


Terraforming

Far-off planets are magically terraformed to be fit for inhabitation via scry-and-colonize.

Source: Jowgen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504415-Terraforming-planetoids-in-a-self-sufficient-fashion)

Spelltanks

Commonly called cubes (source: Sofawall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147304-The-Cube)), these fantasy tanks have three main functions, all of which may be present in a single vehicle.

- The most expensive ones are dimensionally locked, forbidded cubes of magically-hardened adamantine, layered with walls of force, prismatic walls, and more. They push forward effortlessly flattening stuff, and more importantly, are almost impossible to penetrate.
- Some serve as transports containing soldiers, typically battle horrors, which get rapidly disgorged as leaping shock troopers via a greater pad of launching.
- Some are outfitted with spell turrets, serving as artillery.


Soldiers

Armies were once made of living men. No more! Now several forms of automaton are used as soldiers instead. Three main forms of automaton are used:

Horrors - Battle horrors, and their lesser cousins the helmed horrors, are magically animated suits of armor that serve as the mainstay infantry.

Simulacra - Simulacra are a potent weapon, the most powerful kind being the dreaded ice assassins: perfect simulacra made of ice that will stop at nothing to kill the being in whose image they're made.

Golems - The height of golem technology is the trademarked Shadesteel golem, produced by the massive Shadesteel Corporation. They look like creepy metallic bone aliens and can fly magically. But less expensive types of golem are fielded as well, though the more primitive kinds, like those of flesh and clay, are considered archaic.


Wands as Personal Arms

Wands are the analogue to guns. A 3rd or 5th level wand of magic missile does nearly as much damage as a shotgun and has perfect accuracy.

Cheap single-charge wands are manufactured en masse by artificers who combine the staffsprout spell with their power surge infusion. In this way they can sprout single-charge wands off of magic staves without draining any of the staff's charges. Source: thethird. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497918-Wandman-All-the-partially-charged-wands)

Traditional multi-charge wands remain expensive, making them the purview of the well-off or the militarily high-up. Upper class and upper middle class children are taught how to use these wands, and other magic items, even if they don't take any other magical training. Upper and upper middle class families may have a family staff or runestaff in the same way they would have a family heirloom sword in chivalric settings.

The Celestial Courts
Since ancient history, divine casters have been the major counterpower to arcane casters. They benefit from being united by devotion to their deities, meaning they can work together more easily and form larger, more stable organizations than mages. These churches have often been the foundation of their societies, overseeing the legal system and healthcare.

Today, many major churches and the courts they administer have united into a bureaucratic behemoth known as the Celestial Courts. The Celestial Courts provide the public services (which earns them more public goodwill than the arcanists have) while the mages mint the money, fight the wars, and enjoy great levels of wealth and some level of impunity from the law.


The Conclave
A mafia of powerful arcanists, the Arcane Conclave has its headquarters and its own grand domain on another planet in the solar system, as well as a vast network of private demiplanes. They forbid building teleportation circles to their planet: it’s only reachable with greater teleport, and access is restricted to mages of a certain stature. Most mages are individualistic and highly competitive; this is the largest organization of them that exists.


The Cult of M
[Mystra/Insert name] is the goddess of magic. There are two main branches of her cult: the Initiates and the Dweomerkeepers. The Initiates of M are spell-priests whose magic runs so strong that they can even defy antimagic fields. The Dweomerkeepers guard the integrity of the world's magic and repair any flaws in the arcanosphere.

But the cult of M----- hasn't maintained its influence by being toothless. On their private demiplane, the Initiates breed super-soldiers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499269-Planar-Soldiers-of-Mystra) who become resistant to almost all magic and most forms of attack. Meanwhile, the Dweomerkeepers are notorious for their liberal use of ice assassins. Normally rare and highly draining on a mage's power to create, the Keepers seem to have the secrets of creating such simulacra at no cost to themselves.


The Knights Vindicator
An order of fearsome, nightstick-burning priest-knights. They serve as sometime agents of the Celestial Courts but it's well known that they also serve the churches of gods who are more secretive and sinister. Two famous members are Ch'uck the Windicator and the mysterious Knight of Shadows (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=333.0).


The Maho-Tsukai
Also called blood mages or blood sorcerers, the Maho-Tsukai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553798-Maho-Tsukai-Madness) are a specialized form of shugenja who deal with blood magic instead of the classical elements. Sorcerers often dabble in this path.


The Planar Shepherds
The druidic equivalent of the high-level wizards who ascend into extraplanar cosmogods. They learn to warp and master extraplanar creatures and terrain.


The Rainbow Servants
Mortal civilization is powerful and magical, but is by no means the only power in the world. For example, there are the mystical couatls. Those who serve the couatls, called the Rainbow Servants, gain great strength in prismatic magic. Another route to power over prismatic magic is held by the Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil, among whose most famous members is the priestess Priya (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum).


The Shadesteel Corporation
The lynchpin of the military-industrial complex, its factories produce spell turrets and other engines of war. Most famous are its massive golemworks, which produce the trademark Shadesteel golems that serve as most of the world’s police force.


The Ur-Priests
An order of ultra-powerful priests who tap into divine power directly, worshipping no gods. Many of them are like Ayn Rand caricatures of Will to Power.


The Voidthrawn Army
Due to their preternatural resilience, magically augmented and crossbred trolls have long been a staple of warfare, known as “troll-zillas” or “budget tarrasques”.

Recently, a cabal of three mind flayers came together to conquer the world. One was a necromancer, one a psion, one an artificer. They decided to build an unbeatable army. They bred a stock of war trolls, who were put through several harsh modifications: undeath, lycanthropy, the replacement of their limbs with golem limbs, and at last the notorious Voidmind Ritual. The end result is a mercenary army of unkillable supersoldiers, the Voidthrawn Army.

Source: JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques)

Wizards and artificers are the central classes of the setting and are responsible for most of society’s current state. Druids are the one fearsome force fielded by people who live in the wilder areas outside the City, serving as key defenders of wild and rural communities against monsters and other threats.

The paths of the binder and warlock are two routes to power for those who don't have the intellect, proclivity or wealth to train as a wizard and weren't lucky enough to be born with the sorcerer's gift. Many of them therefore come from the lower echelons of society, and it's because of this and not just because of their unsavory patrons that warlocks are looked down on. In the City, they often congregate in gang-like covens.


Advancement

Wizards above 15th level find little more of interest in the mortal world and tend to leave it in order to wander the planes or create and populate demiplanes of their own. Some stay at home, either to help improve the world that birthed them or to indulge their pettier impulses of domination. For the most part, however, the highest level wizards you are likely to find in the mortal world are around 15th level.

Necromantic clerics can use consumptive fields to amass spellcasting power far beyond what they're normally capable of; left to rise in power unchecked they become capable of apocalyptic, nation-ending magics. (Source: Anthrowhale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527654-Death-Cults-a-BBEG-guide))

Fighters aren't necessarily useless, they just may not resemble the low-magic image of them. For example, a legendary fighter known as Ex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter) successfully mind switched with a hagunemnon protean -- albeit with the help of powerful spellcasters -- allowing him to assume the powers of any creature or monster. And many fighters have gone to immense and exotic lengths to become viable mage-killers. (Examples from Anthrowhale: 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?251901-AMF-Fighter), 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?254630-An-improved-mage-killer&p=13832819#post13832819)).

The beings who more closely resemble the conventional D&D gods are the Ascended -- mages who each discovered some form of ultimate power. The Ascended now dwell in the Outer Planes, sometimes on planes of their own creation, and are seldom heard from, rarely affecting the mortal world (due, some speculate, to a mutual non-intercession pact). But every so often one of the Ascended returns to the world and does something that usually leaves everyone scratching their heads.

It's disputed whether the Ascended welcome others who would join their ranks, or whether they use their omniscience and omnipotence to prevent new competitors from ever arising.

The pantheon of Ascended includes Pun-Pun (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Pun-Pun), god of kobolds, munchkinry and exploitation, and the Clockwork Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time), a robotic manipulator of time.

The "true gods" of the setting are obscure and alien, more like cosmic forces; they seldom take embodied form.


Automata
- helmed horror & battle horror
- shadesteel golem
Elemental Weird
- air, earth, fire and water weirds
Living Spell
Lumi (humanoid with floating, glowing head)
- lernean lumi (glowing humanoid with between 2 and 8 floating, glowing heads)
Simulacra
- simulacrum
- ice assassin
Transhumanoid
- empty vessel (incl. statblock for fully templated transhuman citizen)
- necropolitan
- blue goblin, stonefire dwarf
- halfling mageservant (shadow d'hin'ni halfling)
Ultra-Troll
- multiheaded troll
- Voidthrawn soldier


Helmed and battle horrors are vacant suits of armor and weaponry animated by magic. They’re standard infantry.

Shadesteel golems, produced by the Shadesteel Corporation, are commonly employed as police and peace forces, and also find their place on the battlefield. Though different models exist, the default Shadesteel golem model is creepy, alien and skeletal, made of smooth smoky silver material and capable of magically-powered flight. Other types of golems are also created, but they’re less high-tech.

Elemental weirds are elemental beings associated with prophecy who dwell in magic elemental pools on the Material Plane, like sacred lakes or never-drying mudpits. They can't leave their pool. Water weirds have healing powers that are invaluable to the process of augmentation; a water weird’s pool is present in most Transformation Facilities.

Transhumanoid: Empty Vessels (ECS p291) are the most common species for humans to be augmented into, basically “better humans” with a spark of psychic power. The name “Empty Vessel” is because they serve as an ideal substrate for further augmentation, often being the first step in the sequence performed. The equivalents for other races are the blue goblin and stonefire dwarf.

Elves are notorious for cynically trafficking with demons to increase their power. Most of them will use the Dark Chaos Shuffle to replace their four racial proficiency feats with feats of their choosing; this process leaves them with no ultimate bond to the Abyss but certainly leaves their souls tainted.

Halflings, meanwhile, tend to find their place as shadowy, unseen butlers and servants of the wealthy, inhabiting great houses and residences. Their favored forms of augmentation are the shadow and d'hin'ni templates, which make them fast, ultra-stealthy, invisible, and possessed of minor arcane powers -- like household spirits from folklore.

Necropolitans are a simple form of intelligent undead, leaving a creature much more mentally and physically intact than the so-called Degenerate Undead like zombies and ghouls. The downside is that the would-be necropolitan must first be killed in an excruciating ritual. This and other concerns make it unpopular with the rich, but the procedure's achievable price makes it appealing to plebs who would rather be an undead corpse on the Material Plane than alive in static silver Astral boredom.

Endarire
2019-07-24, 02:01 AM
One thing I didn't notice in my time reading the original thread was animate dead and unseen servants for cheap manual labor, especially using Spell Clocks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a) to cast plant growth for plants. These plants are used for food, fuel (burned, etc.), and craftsmanship.

Elves
2019-07-24, 02:42 AM
Added. As mentioned, I'm hesitant to include anything involving spell traps, spell clocks, etc, but that's a cooler use of them than just spamming create food.

Malroth
2019-07-24, 03:18 AM
I imagine some fell powers circulate secrets of becoming Warlocks and Binders among the magically disenfranchised, Which could lead to some unregulated magical production of goods especially if combined with scrolls of energy transformation field.

John05
2019-07-24, 04:43 AM
About wish abuse... Some elements of a 3.5/PF world could be afforded wish abuse, imo.

E.g. A solar with a wish a day. It's within his power level anyway, as I'd assume they'd rule their own planet/demiplane what with animate objects, permanency, and wish as SLAs, just to name a few. (Who needs dams/waterwheels/windmills and other power generators when you have legions of permanent animated objects built up over the years?)

Wish abuse mostly becomes ridiculous when people are RAW-abusing chained wishes through candles of invocation at lower levels.

Eberron has a lot of ideas that make sense if magic has become widespread/commonly used. E.g. Magewrights (or more frequent adept NPCs). But if you're already looking at artificers then you may have already looked into it.

As for one of my own ideas about high magic settings, I always thought that in a 3.5/PF world, it made more sense for wealthier individuals to own wands for self defense as opposed to swords, crossbows, etc. Their real world analogs would be upper-middle class Americans and especially more rural well-to-do farmers who own large stockpiles of expensive guns. They spend a lot of time/money on ammo and practice shooting. Wouldn't be a stretch to compare that to those who use wands for self defense. A wand of magic missiles doesn't miss unlike swords/bows, and a more expensive one is almost guaranteed to kill the average orc. It's far more dangerous to engage hostiles in melee or with some ranged weapon with sub 120' increment.

Wands are about as effective as real world shotguns. Comparing with shotguns and revolvers of d20 modern, a wand of magic missiles at 3rd or 5th level has slightly less damage than a shotgun but far more accuracy and lower variance. Meaning it's more likely to kill the average mook in one shot at a distance. Much lower risk.

Expanding upon this line of replacing real world tools/weapons with fantasy analogs, if we're dealing with militaries with something as advanced and expensive as "the cube"/"spelltank", then there's no reason they wouldn't explore cheaper "tanks" and artillery. E.g. something like a planar-binded or gated Paeliryon devil (Fiendish Codex II) has Meteor Swarm at will. That would easily, and eventually destroy any mundane wall from a long distance, over time. And it comes attached to a beefy, regenerating tank of a body. I find it questionable how useful classical artillery would be in a high fantasy setting in which a military force has at a few 15th level wizards (or higher) on call.

The main advantages of the spelltank in that it can be kept in store if the enchantments on it are permanent. So if magic is abundant but still "capped" (e.g. lots of lower to mid level magic but rarely any high level civilized/humanoid wizards, similar to Eberron), then I suppose they'd have good use.

John05
2019-07-24, 04:53 AM
As for battering rams (one of the uses of the spelltank), it got me thinking...

Is there anything in 3.5/PF rules that prohibit charging a door/wall? If not, then I'd be hardpressed to find any tool like a battering ram that can do more damage to a door/wall than even a casual uber-charge. Not even a fully optimized one.

Heck, take your typical centaur (Racial Feats: None, but centaurs can acquire the Spirited Charge and Trample feats (ignoring the prerequisites) and apply the benefits to their own melee attacks. Precedence: Page 132 of Races of Faerun), give him a couple fighter levels and power attack. Give him an adamantine lance and cast some temporary protections on him. Let him go deal a hundred damage or so against the door/wall. Reasonably low, but it doesn't seem to take much to destroy most doors/walls that aren't force-enforced.

But if there's a wall of force, I doubt most battering rams would help anyway. You'd need disintegration or other means.

Not as safe or tanky as a spelltank, but it's definitely a more cost-efficient option for a poorer country. (And even an option for a wealthier countries when it comes to tactical, quick strikes.)

Anthrowhale
2019-07-24, 06:55 AM
What about Archivists? They are the other Tier 1 class. A well-organized cabal could potentially be more powerful than wizards, since the cabal would have access to nearly every spell.

What about Dweomerkeepers? A Dweomerkeeper makes undispellable Supernatural permanent spell effects from any permanent spell they can cast. They are also presumably at the heart of Ice Assassin construction since with Uncanny Forethought they can produce them without any XP cost.

What about Maho-Tsukai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553798-Maho-Tsukai-Madness)? Super-sorcerers probably don't threaten the overall order but the temptations of power might make good plot points.

The widespread use of Psychic Reformation to rebuild characters on the fly might be interesting.

Some of the other TO things I've played with should probably be avoided, but it might be good to have a reason why.

Death Cults (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527654-Death-Cults-a-BBEG-guide)?
Clockwork Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time)?
Protean soldiers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter)?
Planar Soldiers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499269-Planar-Soldiers-of-Mystra) from a static timeless[magic] plane layering many spell effects on top of each other with a planar bubble? This one might be ok.

Elves
2019-07-24, 12:25 PM
Added your guys' suggestions.

Re the Cube, "ram" was a bad name for it since it was designed by Sofawall mainly to be an impenetrable sanctum...IIRC that TOS ended in a draw?

The Dream of Metal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?121334-The-Dream-of-Metal) is the sort of campaign you would run in this setting.


Clockwork Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time)

Do you have any story/context ideas for this character?

liquidformat
2019-07-24, 01:30 PM
I noticed you haven't mentioned anything about transportation beyond teleportation circles. Do you foresee them being setup every block so people primarily use them or do you foresee other mods like effigy and undead?


Also your setting reminds me a lot of a magic based Altered Carbon setting. I don't think everyone would go full into the Augmented human thing. I would imagine you would have cults and religions based around being 'pure' heck even wars...

Elves
2019-07-24, 02:08 PM
I noticed you haven't mentioned anything about transportation beyond teleportation circles. Do you foresee them being setup every block so people primarily use them or do you foresee other mods like effigy and undead?

Teleportation circles are expensive to set up so I'd imagine they're only set up where they justify the cost, possibly in large stations. Internal teleportation circles between parts of the same geographically continuous city would be rare. So while the Infinite City is treated as a megalopolis, in practice there are very limited chokepoints between its different far-flung sectors.

So yeah, that does leave the question of transportation. Effigies seem cool. I definitely DON'T like the Eberron magic trains, that just reskins the real world whereas the cool thing is how magical solutions would be slightly different. Magic as technology, not magitech.

(On that note, forgot to add thermodynamic exploits to the list of stuff excluded - like magic traps, it's too easy and not interesting.)


Also your setting reminds me a lot of a magic based Altered Carbon setting. I don't think everyone would go full into the Augmented human thing. I would imagine you would have cults and religions based around being 'pure' heck even wars...

I haven't seen that show but the cyberpunk comparison is probably inevitable.

thethird
2019-07-24, 02:17 PM
That's really interesting I'll shoot some ways to get cheap wands (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497918-Wandman-All-the-partially-charged-wands).

I hope this societies threatens each other with resetting the timeline on each other awakening some constructs from a forced dream that have been dunked in quintessence for who knows how long.

Also have you heard of the city built around the tarasque? (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/d-dish-the-city-built-around-the-tarrasque.261519/)

MisterKaws
2019-07-24, 02:38 PM
Most mid-low physically capable people would probably be employed in constant coitus, to make Distilled Joy, under Energy Transformation Fields powered by Binders. Supernatural Abilities that don't imitate spells give energy equal to the creature's HD, so any level 3 Binder can power it once every 30 seconds, which is good for one person, but you could probably get level 6 Binders to get two flasks from every intercourse. The ones who cast the Energy Transformation Fields would have the right to a tithe or something of the sort, for each participant involved.

Ambrosia can substitute for XP in item crafting, so it would likely rapidly substitute other forms of currency. Living beings immune to fatigue while still being able to engage in sexual relationships would rapidly rise to prominence in society by being able to quickly amass this new currency. Likewise, Exemplars, Bards, Jesters, and Wizard-artists who could provide other forms of pleasure for multiple people at once could massively profit from it as well.

Most of all, the strongest casters, the ones casting said Energy Transformation Fields to fuel the entire thing, would become infinitely rich, quickly amassing money without doing nothing at all. They could then use said money(again, Ambrosia) to create as many magic items as needed, and use them to increase their power. This points to a very strong economic and military presence of casters, especially the long-lived ones, like Elves, Necropolitans, Elans(no one says they can't be wizards) and others, who have more than enough time to craft all they need.

This focus in coitus as a form of mining money would obviously quickly lead to a spike in birth rates, which would mean a constant increase in the workforce, which would, in turn, hold the economy in place, due to the constant rise in demand. On the other hand, it would also provide a reason for the constant colonization of new planets.

Of course, this all depends on whether you allow Energy Transformation Fields+Binders, but that might be a bit too cheesy, so I'll give you a secondary method as well: Using Arcane Manipulation, a Wizard can split their slots into huge numbers of level 3 slots. Focused Transmuters could get arbitrarily large numbers of level 2 slots relatively easily, and thus man quite a few "sessions". Wizards focused in Twinning such spells via metamagic reduction would also become commonplace, as would be Wizards focused in Reach-Chaining Distilled Joy to grab large amounts of targets at once.



Now, on the crafting and augmentation: It should all be done through Dedicated Wrights. All augmentation houses could be comfortably ran by a few Artificers, each controlling twenty or so Wrights. Any more would probably lead to lack of attention or complaints of workforce abuse.

Anthrowhale
2019-07-24, 03:14 PM
Do you have any story/context ideas for this character?

Nothing other than 'wizard effectively ascends'. Barring dead magic zones, the clockwork wizard is effectively a deity in the sense of omniscience (i.e. ability to know anything) and much closer to omnipotence (i.e. ability to change things as you desire) than most d&d deities.

Storywise, that could be expressed as:
"Yeah, Atropus came to our planet, but it wasn't a big deal since the entire moon disintegrated once it became to close."
"This planet developed an atmosphere and started supporting life last year. We aren't sure why."
"There used to be black dragons, but one day they all disappeared."

Elves
2019-07-24, 04:22 PM
That's really interesting I'll shoot some ways to get cheap wands (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497918-Wandman-All-the-partially-charged-wands).

Also have you heard of [url=https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/d-dish-the-city-built-around-the-tarrasque.261519/] the city built around the tarasque?

Cool and cool.


I hope this societies threatens each other with resetting the timeline on each other awakening some constructs from a forced dream that have been dunked in quintessence for who knows how long.

It's weird stuff. If there were to be a sample adventure or whatever I think it would be centered on the Dream of Metal reality reset exploits.


snip

Having the poor slave away in sex magic factories is pretty weird, that's great.


Nothing other than 'wizard effectively ascends'. Barring dead magic zones, the clockwork wizard is effectively a deity in the sense of omniscience (i.e. ability to know anything) and much closer to omnipotence (i.e. ability to change things as you desire) than most d&d deities.

There are probably a number of Ascended like this. I haven't really thought of how to incorporate them other than sending them to the Outer Planes, ie, The Farm. I'm assuming these ascended mages are the de facto gods of the setting.

White Blade
2019-07-24, 04:29 PM
Although such an object would be, in theory, ludicrously expensive, an infinite use-activated Altar of True Resurrection is actually a mere 16,120,000 GP in price without restrictions and if (as seems likely) there were a requirement for Cleric (Whoever) it would be a mere 11,284,000. For the multiplanar city, this would be invaluable - And in a world with Distilled Joy, producible. You've moved into a world beyond death.

Healing Stones would be much cheaper, of course, Command Word Heal being a measly 118,800 - These will keep citizens up 24/7, infinitely fast, scurrying from point to point in different interests - Immune to fatigue, disease, and similar.

Public Tablets of Knowledge (+30 to a knowledge check) 90k would be available to all citizens, many of whom will have Jack of All Trades so that they can gain the full benefit of the tablets. They would simply pick up the appropriate tablet, note down what they had wanted to know, and then move on, leaving it for the next person. More enterprising civilizations might have Public Tablets of All Knowledge for 990k, but that's a matter of your personal spending choices.

Faucets of Prestidigitation to flavor the Create Food gruel in the Create Food cafeterias for the Poors.

That's the Magipunk setting in a nutshell - A death proof, hunger-proof, high information society ruled by a narrow cabal of malefic magic users.

Elite in this society most likely don't personally travel - They hitch a ride at Nightmare Coach, where a Dominated Nightmare casts Astral Projection on them and they step out at their target location.

Generally Things People Will Want:

Control Weather Towers to control the weather, obviously.

Sanctify the Wicked Prisons, which compel moral translation, or simply some number of Emissaries of Barachial who can comfortably spam Conversion. Planetar/Emissary of Barachiel 3 who has focused on the work will essentially rehabilitate the most hardened criminals in two weeks. An Adult Steel Dragon/Emissary of Barachiel will be somehow even more so. In universe, all these actions are Exalted Good and above all reproach - Out of universe check with your conscience before choosing this. Edit: Or just Lesser Aasimar Marshal 5/Emissary of Barachiel 5 with a flaw.

Heliomance
2019-07-24, 04:45 PM
I think you're overselling how popular becoming a Necropolitan would be. The Rite of Crucimigration requires literally being crucified, dying in excruciating agony over the course of a full 24 hours. And if you're not strong enough (read: not high enough level), you not only die but your soul is effectively destroyed - your body crumbles into dust and no effect can ever resurrect you, not even Wish.

I really don't see that being a popular retirement plan.

Anthrowhale
2019-07-24, 04:54 PM
There are probably a number of Ascended like this. I haven't really thought of how to incorporate them other than sending them to the Outer Planes, ie, The Farm. I'm assuming these ascended mages are the de facto gods of the setting.
That makes sense. Every now and then one might return and do something which leaves everyone else scratching their head. Or, maybe there is some form of compact which prevents this.

One question though: if there are a few nigh-omniscient spellcasters, would they welcome new ones? And if not, what would they do about threats? That could really change the flavor of the setting.

(Minor detail, your link to Ex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter) is going to the wrong place.)

MisterKaws
2019-07-24, 04:55 PM
I think you're overselling how popular becoming a Necropolitan would be. The Rite of Crucimigration requires literally being crucified, dying in excruciating agony over the course of a full 24 hours. And if you're not strong enough (read: not high enough level), you not only die but your soul is effectively destroyed - your body crumbles into dust and no effect can ever resurrect you, not even Wish.

I really don't see that being a popular retirement plan.

With enough Ambrosia you could likely ignore the pain.

Also Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain.

Anthrowhale
2019-07-24, 04:58 PM
I think you're overselling how popular becoming a Necropolitan would be. The Rite of Crucimigration requires literally being crucified, dying in excruciating agony over the course of a full 24 hours. And if you're not strong enough (read: not high enough level), you not only die but your soul is effectively destroyed - your body crumbles into dust and no effect can ever resurrect you, not even Wish.

I really don't see that being a popular retirement plan.

Also, character-makers seem to neglect the "please enslave me" aspect of being an undead for various reasons, but I'd expect it to matter in this sort of discussion.

Elves
2019-07-24, 05:33 PM
I think you're overselling how popular becoming a Necropolitan would be. The Rite of Crucimigration requires literally being crucified, dying in excruciating agony over the course of a full 24 hours. And if you're not strong enough (read: not high enough level), you not only die but your soul is effectively destroyed - your body crumbles into dust and no effect can ever resurrect you, not even Wish.

I really don't see that being a popular retirement plan.

What do you suggest instead? The no resurrection part isn't necessarily a big downside since most ordinary people will undergo the ritual to prevent death from old age, and you can't be brought back from that anyway. And I'm sure you can have yourself mindcontrolled to enjoy the pain.


That makes sense. Every now and then one might return and do something which leaves everyone else scratching their head. Or, maybe there is some form of compact which prevents this.

One question though: if there are a few nigh-omniscient spellcasters, would they welcome new ones? And if not, what would they do about threats? That could really change the flavor of the setting.

Great stuff, added.

MisterKaws
2019-07-24, 05:33 PM
Also, character-makers seem to neglect the "please enslave me" aspect of being an undead for various reasons, but I'd expect it to matter in this sort of discussion.

There is the Good Lich variant template in Libris Mortis that gives Turn Immunity, but Necropolitan is indeed kind of screwed in that aspect. Basically only broke people who can't pay for the premium undead ascension course get shanked. Just like real life.

Palanan
2019-07-24, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Heliomance
I think you're overselling how popular becoming a Necropolitan would be....

I really don't see that being a popular retirement plan.

This. What looks good on paper isn't always so popular with the people actually living it.

Or, in this case, not living it. I think only the most obsessed and deranged would actually follow through with this.

John05
2019-07-24, 07:30 PM
This. What looks good on paper isn't always so popular with the people actually living it.

Or, in this case, not living it. I think only the most obsessed and deranged would actually follow through with this.

Something to keep in mind is that the kind of society being described strikes me as being close to Lawful Evil.

They're using undead labour, enforcing laws with golems made of negative energy, and invest so much into military technology (the spelltank idea is absurdly expensive).

We're treading on shaky grounds in terms of religion, philosophy, ethics, politics, etc.

One question I'd have: Are there no concerns about saturating the world with too much negative energy? In some settings, the more undead are around, the more likely more undead will spawn. I heard of such a mechanic in the Overlord series, and I vaguely remember such a mechanic in an old D&D setting. If such a thing is the case, then I'd imagine there has to be valid political opposition to the usage of undead labour. If there isn't, then maybe such opposition is oppressed/silenced.

These kinds of assumptions are also why i didn't shy away from suggesting things like paeliryon artillery, retriever enforcers, etc. It just doesn't seem like a gov't/society that shies away from using morally questionable agents for the sake of expediency.

Also, I'd assume the people, over time, would adjust to what we irl consider "deranged".

Consider something mundane irl: plastic surgery. In a different world, if I described the procedure, people might call me and my society "deranged" for coming up with such a painful-sounding and expensive procedure just to slightly improve my looks. But to me, it's relatively common for where I'm living. People have gotten used to it and understand mitigating factors (e.g. it's more widespread now, tech has improved to the point where it's safe and painless and easy to recover from).

Elves
2019-07-24, 08:21 PM
I haven't been considering alignment. It's always been my least favorite part of the default D&D world. Negative energy pollution could be good if it doesn't seem allegorical.

As far as the pain/torture involved in the Crucimigration Rite, look at it this way. A lot of end of life treatments and surgeries that go on in hospitals today are long and genuinely agonizing, and people are willing to go through them or put their relatives through them for the sake of buying a little more time. What if we could do that and instead of just buying a little time it made them deathless and immortal? People would go through much worse than crucifixion.

Palanan
2019-07-24, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Heliomance
And if you're not strong enough (read: not high enough level), you not only die but your soul is effectively destroyed - your body crumbles into dust and no effect can ever resurrect you, not even Wish.

So this would be the fate of the vast majority of people who attempt it, since they won't be high-level adventurers and won't survive the process. I'm with Heliomance; I'm not seeing how this would be too popular.

Elves
2019-07-24, 10:07 PM
It's one level. So yes, that may filter out some applicants, but I think most people have reached 2nd level by the time they're old.

The main thing is if there's a cost-comparable way to avoid death by old age.

Recherché
2019-07-24, 11:07 PM
Reusable item of Reincarnation? You'd only need one or two in the entire city. If you're first level, your Con goes down but you still come back. Unlike necropolitan it's not a permanent solution to mortality but there's less issues with being undead or destroying your soul.

Crake
2019-07-24, 11:18 PM
With magic that high level, mundane technology becomes insanely easy to advance, but remains just a fun pastime and hobby for tinkerers and inventors.... until some of the more dangerous aspects of technology are discovered.

When technology can outperform all but the most epic magic in sheer destructive power, you'd need to consider the impact it would have. Lead-lined suitcases become illegal, as they can house nuclear devices, not just hiding the weapons from divnations, but also creating radiation shields, and it would be impossible to distinguish between someone desiring privacy and someone housing a potentially deadly weapon, but now that lead lining is outlawed, people become concerned for their low-cost privacy, etc etc.

John05
2019-07-24, 11:46 PM
A couple of issues with reincarnation that I can see:

1. You get a new body. Some people would prefer that to having an undead version of their existing body, but some wouldn't.
2. A line in the d20 srd is cause for concern: "A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form." I'm not sure how much is a "majority", but if it isn't 100% then there's a chance some people worry about becoming different people with new personalities. The same concern could come with becoming undead, though I'm sure different people will worry about one metamorphosis more than the other for personal reasons.

John05
2019-07-24, 11:49 PM
Speaking of lead lining, if privacy is a concern, then I imagine this would be one of the most popular spells: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm

I imagine that laws would be on the books wrt Dispel Magic. It's essentially vandalism to use AoE dispel that has a chance of dispelling permanent magical effects that are costly to replace.

Heliomance
2019-07-25, 02:12 AM
It's one level. So yes, that may filter out some applicants, but I think most people have reached 2nd level by the time they're old.

The main thing is if there's a cost-comparable way to avoid death by old age.

One level plus an extra 1000XP, so you need to be level 3 to survive it.


Something to keep in mind is that the kind of society being described strikes me as being close to Lawful Evil.

They're using undead labour, enforcing laws with golems made of negative energy, and invest so much into military technology (the spelltank idea is absurdly expensive).

We're treading on shaky grounds in terms of religion, philosophy, ethics, politics, etc.

One question I'd have: Are there no concerns about saturating the world with too much negative energy? In some settings, the more undead are around, the more likely more undead will spawn. I heard of such a mechanic in the Overlord series, and I vaguely remember such a mechanic in an old D&D setting. If such a thing is the case, then I'd imagine there has to be valid political opposition to the usage of undead labour. If there isn't, then maybe such opposition is oppressed/silenced.



... Holy crap this post is allegorical to the point where commenting on it is almost inherently skirting around the "no politics" rule

John05
2019-07-25, 02:33 AM
My bad if there's a rule against ideas that seem too allegorical. A lot of my ideas are just based on what I personally find would be realistic. My fantasy worlds still take economics and politics into consideration. I.e. I'd consider what I'd be concerned about as a resident of this fantasy world, esp widespread use/misuse of magic and technology.

Crake
2019-07-25, 04:27 AM
One question I'd have: Are there no concerns about saturating the world with too much negative energy? In some settings, the more undead are around, the more likely more undead will spawn. I heard of such a mechanic in the Overlord series, and I vaguely remember such a mechanic in an old D&D setting. If such a thing is the case, then I'd imagine there has to be valid political opposition to the usage of undead labour.

There is actually a rule for undead density (albeit a variant rule, in libris mortis), but it doesn't create more undead, it simply provides the undead in the area with turn resistance. Also, the number is quite high, 1000HD worth of undead within a 100ft radius sphere. If you're using 2HD zombie workers, or 1HD skeleton workers, then it's not really an issue.

The question of negative energy saturation is one to be answered by your DM, as such things are, rightfully, left to the DM to determine their effects at any given time.

As a side note, I would say that using undead labour is LESS evil than using dominated labour, but as a penal system, neither are particularly evil in and of themselves, and only really become evil when they are inflicted upon the populus maliciously with tyrranical laws ("Oh you stole an apple? 10 years of mindslave labour!" sort of thing).

MisterKaws
2019-07-25, 05:22 AM
You know, if you're going for altars of Resurrection, there's no reason to not use Altars of Reincarnation. Maybe they're free, but only for people above a certain age, so you have to pay up for more chances to win on the racial gacha.

Blackhawk748
2019-07-25, 04:26 PM
Couldn't you just use Death to Undeath instead? It kills them an they come back as a generic undead which is basically a Necropolitan

Caelestion
2019-07-25, 06:36 PM
Where is Death to Undeath from?

Blackhawk748
2019-07-25, 06:38 PM
Where is Death to Undeath from?

Dragon Compendium I believe?

Elves
2019-07-25, 07:37 PM
One level plus an extra 1000XP, so you need to be level 3 to survive it.

Okay so that is a bit more restrictive. Taking into account that the magical healthcare and civic resurrection altars give people long lifespans and a lot of leeway to take risks and adventures, I'd expect people to end up higher level than in a Dark Ages peasant world, but literalizing the xp gain mechanics as a feature of gameworld physics leads to madness or parody (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html) so I agree with you. Maybe 30% of mid/lower class people would be eligible, which still gives it room to be fairly common.


Speaking of cyberpunk, there's a funny analogy to the whole cryonics thing in that in this world it would be semi-reasonable to kill yourself so that you could be resurrected in the future. Protest suicides would also be semi-common, sometimes with stipulations that they will only agree to be resurrected if certain conditions are met.

Endarire
2019-07-25, 09:59 PM
Undeath to death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undeathToDeath.htm).

White Blade
2019-07-26, 02:50 PM
On the lower end of things, it's easy to imagine (say) Crowns of Mutual Trust that allow you to use Detect Thoughts on paired crowns, where people insist on being able to read minds before major contracts are signed. I had bells that made it impossible to do violence in one of my High Magic elven cities once, it's easy to imagine such Bells of Calm Emotion, either handheld as anti-riot gear or in bell towers to effect a whole sections of the city. The whole city is probably carpeted with Comprehend Languages just to smooth over all the many languages. Instead of rats, the city might cultivate Living Spells of

To replace elevators and stairs, Floating Disks is the obvious choice but if you want more flavorful images, Walls of Spider-Climb would allow substantially more people at a time, clambering up and down the wall either in a dignified way or "like rats" depending on what tone you're looking to give. For a different look, Fires of Smoke Stairs (Complete Scoundrel) would make interesting ignitable staircases. Floating locations or extra-dimensional spaces would be the provenance of the rich in such a world.

Speakeasies, revolutionary sites, criminal ventures, various secure locations - These might have Ornaments of Dimension Hop which are command word activated and take you into secured basements or rooms without doors. More elite structures will have Ornament of Dimension Doors that take you much further. Truly dangerous organizations, both legitimate and non, will have Evacuation Runes for their leadership. Con Artists, of course, would prefer to ply their trade with Glibness and Magic Aura - But no thief would be caught dead without a Mask of Lies (Complete Adventurer). Thresholds of Character that ping alignment when you walk through them will be popular because the rich, who might prevent such things, instead wear things that make their alignment undetectable. More elite places would have Thresholds of Revelation that function like Metal detectors through True Seeing/Arcane Sight, but the elite will push down on these because it inconveniences them more readily. Waterfalls of Dispelling will continuously cast Dispel Magic (Greater Dispel Magic, depending on the property) over those who walk under them (Drying Sponges available on request). But ultimately, if you truly want to be safe from magical trickery, you'll meet in Antimagic Cells. Accept no substitutes.

Programmed Image Shows will bring world-class entertainment to the masses! They might be put out as limited edition Scrolls or they might be actively directed by illusionists. If that's too close to ordinary movie theaters for you, Keith Baker suggests instead massive Crystal Balls of Scrying that let you watch a live performance by legendary performers in Crystal Theaters throughout the multiverse. Animating Instruments (Complete Scoundrel) could allow whole orchestras to be played by one Bards with Versatile Performer (Complete Adventurer, feat, gives you effective perform in INT Modifier skills)

Hygiene: Unseen Servants can clean the streets, perhaps aided by Broom Wands that perform the effectives of Prestidigitation's cleaning effects. Expensive buildings might have Repel Vermin on them, but it's really too expensive to dispose of so easily. It's probably cheaper to keep around Shadow Cats or werecats or bats with appropriate levels or, you know, regular cats. D'hi'ni have at will prestidigitation (Dragon 350 pg. 54) and are small sized, gaining the benefits of most the original halflings, and make excellent butlers by being neither Seen nor Heard, but they can be improved upon by being given the Shadow template becoming nearly perfect servants - Never seen, never heard - In such a transhuman setting, many halflings will elect for such a template stack to become favored servants of the elite.

Elves
2019-07-26, 05:08 PM
Quality post.


D'hi'ni have at will prestidigitation (Dragon 350 pg. 54) and are small sized, gaining the benefits of most the original halflings, and make excellent butlers by being neither Seen nor Heard, but they can be improved upon by being given the Shadow template becoming nearly perfect servants - Never seen, never heard - In such a transhuman setting, many halflings will elect for such a template stack to become favored servants of the elite.

This is nice and it actually brings them back to their roots as household spirits, in kobold/brownie/domovoi/etc lore.

It's also fun that it plays on the "English and proper" element of hobbits, whereas the usual thing nowadays is to try and make them cooler by making them gypsies or savages.

Empyreal Dragon
2019-08-02, 07:53 AM
One fun thing, since psionics is so prevalent, my own setting has an order of psi-mages. I could drop the details here if you're interested.

White Blade
2019-08-03, 11:34 AM
Wouldn't most people who wanted to live forever just emmigrate to the Astral Plane over choosing to transition to Necropolitan? A single free-standing Gate would get you to a timeless plane. You couldn't raise children on such planes, of course, but as a retirement plan for the poor folk, seems like a good idea.

AlexanderRM
2019-08-03, 07:11 PM
On a side note: Pathfinder has a 9th level spell Interplanetary Teleport that allows teleportation between planets and restricts Greater Teleport and Teleportation Circles' "Unlimited" range to be merely large enough to cover the same planet and maybe some planet-moon systems. If you're going to consider other planets in a fantasy setting at all this seems like a nice compromise to me- it means the "infinite city" will be restricted to a single planet rather than crisscrossing the galaxy, although in Pathfinder natural portals to other planets in the same solar system (easily located using a Wayfinder of the Stars (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/wayfinder-standard/wayfinder-of-the-stars/) with enough scrying and teleportation magic). I'd imagine cities or at least trading outposts would grow up around stable portals to other planets or planes, since they provide the only valuable trade routes which can't be simply built in any location.




Wouldn't most people who wanted to live forever just emmigrate to the Astral Plane over choosing to transition to Necropolitan? A single free-standing Gate would get you to a timeless plane. You couldn't raise children on such planes, of course, but as a retirement plan for the poor folk, seems like a good idea.

Just wanted to +1 because this seems incredibly good (apart from never being able to leave the astral plane) and I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned in a discussion of D&D immortality before.

White Blade
2019-08-03, 11:39 PM
Just wanted to +1 because this seems incredibly good (apart from never being able to leave the astral plane) and I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned in a discussion of D&D immortality before.

Plane shift is 450 GP (CL 9 x 50) which is actually very affordable. Even a commoner with just 4 ranks and no attribute bonus in their professional skill averages 377 GP per year. 5% of that for 25 years (23.5, technically) will get you retirement with most of your physical abilities in tact. If you hire a Travel Cleric 9 to teleport you to a specific astral location, you’ll be paying 1350 but can split the fee with the other two passengers, ending up back where you started. The Travel Cleric can even make healthy profit as a postman between the people who have not yet retired and those who have. A Travel cleric 9/Wayfarer Guide X is cheaper because you can divide it up further. Needless to say, almost all other races require even lower investment rates. Even if there is the occasional risk a Phane or Astral Dreadnought appears and rips you to shreds, better than the odds of beating the sands of time. The Dreadnoughts are just fancy beatsticks with anti-magic rays, so of course Tippyverse humanity will shred them with raw psionic power or tons of ToB warriors and Shadesteel golems. I don’t know if standard Tippyverse defenses will be great against Phane’s attacks. Also the possibility of war with the Githyanki and their Red Dragons (lol, the Lich Queen gets rolled by the Magocrats of Tippyverse)

The Ritual of Vitality will let you be a Warforged for 1000 XP and 7k GP if you prefer to stick it out on the material plane. If you have money and experience, of course, Ritual of Unlearning can turn you into a Steel Dragon Wyrmling for a mere six levels investment. That should buy you another millennia of life.

Of course, Elves might prefer simply to leave the Necropolitans as a flavor thing - Nothing wrong with that.

Elves
2019-08-04, 12:26 PM
Astral retirement resorts are a great idea. The fact that you can't have kids there only makes it more flavorful as a place of eternal silvery retirement and as you say, there's good adventure fuel in the idea of these communities being threatened by astral monsters. Not to mention the angst or ennui fuel of being separated from the world.

Which could still be a reason why some people would opt for undeath -- they want to remain in the world for whatever reason, as opposed to static silver paradise. That could include family obligation among other things.


One fun thing, since psionics is so prevalent, my own setting has an order of psi-mages. I could drop the details here if you're interested.

Yeah, go on.

------

The main thing I can't tell is what kind of government a world like this would have. The way magical power is concentrated in specific people seems like it would inevitably lead to a more oligarchic less democratic arrangement, but I don't know.

MisterKaws
2019-08-04, 12:58 PM
The main thing I can't tell is what kind of government a world like this would have. The way magical power is concentrated in specific people seems like it would inevitably lead to a more oligarchic less democratic arrangement, but I don't know.

There can be no democracy when everyone weaker than the strongest by just a bit is constantly vulnerable to absolute mind control. Really, it would just become a council of the strongest beings at the district, which would likely make them very territorialistic towards newcomer powerhouses. Would be closer to what you see in the animal world, since numbers can nearly never make up for power in D&D.

Recherché
2019-08-04, 03:04 PM
I feel like Wizard academies and temples with lots of clerics would also be local governments. Quite possibly the closest thing to democracies around as well. I kinda like the idea or a wizard academy with 1 vote per spell slot.

If you're including pathfinder, this spell (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/tears-to-wine/) needs to be everywhere

White Blade
2019-08-04, 03:21 PM
I know standing doctrine on the forum is magocratic oligarchy but allow me to push back: The city NEEDS education and recruitment pipelines for wizards and artificers, it benefits highly from such things. But the magocratic oligarchs are mostly disincentivized from actually promoting such knowledge. Sharing the pie is bad for them individually, especially if they’re mainly in it for power over others. So I don’t think the city benefits from the magocratic oligarchy much and so if there were non-oligarchy cities they would eventually outcompete them. What alternative could occur, though, in a world of conquest?

Historically, powerful empires like Rome were hollowed out by alternative power structures growing inside them. What I think would happen (realistically very early in a D&D setting’s history) is that charismatic (small-c) religious organizations would become the de facto courts to which all people preferred to defer. Cloistered Clerics (Celestia) are always Lawful Good, they have Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Local and Religion) and, if they take Ecclesiarch, Gather Information. If they take enough levels in Church Inquisitor, they’re even immune to Charms and Compulsions. Enforcement gaps could be filled by Paladins or Sacred Vow of Obedience investigators. Overthrowing these Celestial Courts would be somewhere between insanely unpopular and impossible. Moreover, few would - Rather a dual power structure would occur, much as it did in medieval monotheistic societies. On the one hand, the Celestial Courts would provide the public services (education, Endless Larders) and legal footwork that mages have no interest or skill at and the Mages would mint the money, fight the wars, and enjoy great levels of wealth and some level of impunity from the law. Inevitably, however, the mages would step over the line. They would either grow ever more chastened and constrained by the Courts, ala Great Britain’s transition to democracy, or torn to shreds by them and their loyalists, ala the French Revolution.

Then the Courts would reign until they accrued enough (false) bad press to be safely overthrown by the mages and the cycle would start over again.

Elves
2019-08-04, 04:11 PM
A dual arcane-divine power structure does sound realistic. Like MisterKaws said, "numbers can nearly never make up for power in D&D" -- you can't have a popular revolution unless it's backed by the divines. This arcane-divine rivalry even extends to the gods with the thing discussed higher up where the more human gods are actually ascended wizards who gained infinite power through TO, and then the "true" divine gods are more mysterious cosmic powers.

Have you used the Celestial Court etc concept in a setting before?

White Blade
2019-08-04, 04:43 PM
A dual arcane-divine power structure does sound realistic. Like MisterKaws said, "numbers can nearly never make up for power in D&D" -- you can't have a popular revolution unless it's backed by the divines. This arcane-divine rivalry even extends to the gods with the thing discussed higher up where the more human gods are actually ascended wizards who gained infinite power through TO, and then the "true" divine gods are more mysterious cosmic powers.

Have you used the Celestial Court etc concept in a setting before?

I haven’t used that particular form - The Zediqahites in my most recent setting are serve the revolutionary goddess of justice, but the natural cycles that occur here are meddled with too much by divine intervention in setting. Also the setting is quite young history wise.

The problem is really that Wizards and Artificers aren’t a faction - They don’t benefit from other wizards and artificers, so they won’t invest broadly in making that possible. Clerics of this deity or that philosophy ARE a faction. I picked Celestia because a) Sense Motive, B) mandatory Lawful Good, C) low activity deities means more philosophical priests. The Courts as a faction would contain Wizards and even Clerics of other factions but the Magocratic faction would only contain self-interested high ECL characters.

Recherché
2019-08-04, 11:39 PM
How much pathfinder if any do you want to throw in? Because I'd pathfinder witches are on the table they're arcane fullcasters with some very strong incentives to work together and form covens.

Elves
2019-08-05, 12:52 AM
Fluffwise PF witches are the same as D&D warlocks (pact with a patron) while PF warlocks are equivalent to D&D sorcerers. Societally the people with the most incentive to make such pacts are the ones lower down who don't have access to or can't pay for wizard training or are otherwise disadvantaged (though if you're well off you can just have your int boosted through templates etc so that's less of a concern) so the prevalent view of them would be tainted by lower-class association, though they might see themselves as scrappy opportunists or as forced into a corner -- if you're going hard with the dystopian/Dickensian tropes it might be, better to sell yourself to the devils than to the sweatshops because at least the devils give you something valuable. Covens might be sort of gang-like or whatever.

(I'm not trying to hammer this poor vs rich angle as some kind of real-world social message, it's just inevitable that GP matter in a society where so much can be bought in terms of augmentation and spell services. With infinite loop tricks, trap exploitation and the other stuff that would move us to post-scarcity a lot of that disappears [except insofar as those in power will still want to suppress competition] but as said in OP I think those things feel trivializing, like magic is just a win switch instead of an interesting system.)

thethird
2019-08-05, 09:59 AM
Personally at this level... Archivists and Erudites have a very big list of spells to cast, and have good reasons to band together.

Mysteries are considered arcane spells at low level.
Specific arcane spells are considered divine by the hexer, specific divine spells are considered arcane by the wyrm wizard or recaster.
Effectively a warlock (12th level) can craft divine (or arcane) scrolls of all the spells and mysteries. Similarly a psionic artificer can craft power stones for all spells (spell to power erudites exist, and it is possible to get all spells as arcane spells).
Archivist and Erudites are not limited to their list to learn powers (erudites can also use psychic chirurgery).
Unfortunately monastic servant of auppenser (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/leof_msoa.htm) is not from a valid source (as far as I can tell) if it were... you would put those erudites together with monastic servants and make the archivist play on a more even field, by knowing all psionic powers too. I would consider adding it though ;)

Assuming Auppenser is game, I would expect some of the followers to eventually take levels into geometer and make real pretty boccob auppenser's blessed books.

Elves
2019-08-05, 11:33 AM
Personally at this level... Archivists and Erudites have a very big list of spells to cast, and have good reasons to band together.

It would make sense as a foundation for some kind of Societas Eruditorum. Will add.

Recherché
2019-08-05, 01:23 PM
Covens might be lower class but the easy means to boost caster level extremely high is going to be valuable.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/hexes/common-hexes/hex-coven-ex/

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/iron-collar-of-the-unbound-coven/

Effective caster level is mostly limited by how many witches you can fit in a 30ft sphere. Interestingly the ability does not specify that it applies on the witch spells which leads to an argument for large numbers of casters with only one level in witch being enhanced by the coven. Due to the time it takes to assemble everyone it's not the most useful trick in combat but when it comes to less combat centered applications, legions of witches are highly effective.

Witches have another reason to be highly cooperative. They are each other's backup spellbooks. There is not an easy way for a solitary witch to back up her spellbook/familiar. Unlike wizards you can't just make copies. However sharing spells with another witch is free. If you and your coven member share the all the spells you've learned then if/when your familiar dies you can recover all your spells from your coven members.

Empyreal Dragon
2019-08-07, 02:17 AM
So while I'm sourcing up a thread for the psionic-mage order.

I noticed it says elves get fat enhancements. Could somebody tell me what goes into that or link me to a thread? I'm curious about it.

Elves
2019-08-07, 09:54 AM
That was a baseless fluff comment. What elves certainly WOULD all do, that separates them from other races, is chaos shuffle their 4 proficiency feats, so that might lean toward the trope of tainted, demon-dealing elves rather than fey elves.

Empyreal Dragon
2019-08-14, 05:10 AM
One thing a lawful evil society could do.

Innately evil onboard AI. A swarm counts as a single creature for most purposes. A hivenest monster is a good way to do this, preferably with a large undead.

A verminlord can create a hivemind. Control it. Make himself part of it, etc. A hivenest monster can make the undead and a swarm of vermin be one creature.

With a single large undead this gives you a whopping 10,000 vermin, and a hivemind of 207 intelligence and charisma minimum.

Large scale uses of kiss of the vampire if necessary to make the hivemind treated as undead by themselves.

But from there, you can hauntshift the hivenest undead and swarm into a haunting presence bound to an object. A helmet, an earring, a ring if you want the reference. And sever the verminlord from it.

Using true mind switch, astral seed, or polymorph any object would allow constructing the hivemind out of other individuals, who can be placed under mindrape, hypnosis, suggestion, and charm beforehand, modeling their memory, personality, and loyalties custom built, with a fanatic attitude rating towards input commands.

An evil society can generate these MI(malevolent intelligence) by the systematic conditioning and murder of many thousands of sentient beings. For cost effeciency purposes, awakened constructs and other artificial beings are likely the best for this.

So the upper class of evil societies, (notably the drow since spider focused verminlord aren't too uncommon) can give their upper class a hyper intelligent, extremely powerful magical intelligence to act as an onboard assistant.