Polymorph Any Object and HD limit

[ayvango]

Polymorph Any Object discharges HD limit from the polymorph family. It could transform human to pebble and pebble to human as well as pebble to troll, manticore to shrew and shrew to manticore, kitten to tiger and tiger to kitten. The spell could even transform tooth pick to massive door and vice versa.

It is all cool but I'm at loss. How should I calculate actual HP of transformed creature? Normal polymoph adjust ability scores and reapplying Con to HP bonus is all that needed. But PAO works differently. It could transform kitten to tiger and tiger to kitten. How should I calculated resulted HP for that cases. What about objects? They have no HD, jus size and HP. So if I transform tooth pick to door should the door have the old minuscule HP value or full door HP? What about transformations between objects and creatures. Creatures have HD, object have no HD, how should I calculate new HP values?

[Venger]

Polymorph Any Object discharges HD limit from the polymorph family. It could transform human to pebble and pebble to human as well as pebble to troll, manticore to shrew and shrew to manticore, kitten to tiger and tiger to kitten. The spell could even transform tooth pick to massive door and vice versa.

It is all cool but I'm at loss. How should I calculate actual HP of transformed creature? Normal polymoph adjust ability scores and reapplying Con to HP bonus is all that needed. But PAO works differently. It could transform kitten to tiger and tiger to kitten. How should I calculated resulted HP for that cases. What about objects? They have no HD, jus size and HP. So if I transform tooth pick to door should the door have the old minuscule HP value or full door HP? What about transformations between objects and creatures. Creatures have HD, object have no HD, how should I calculate new HP values?

Use the normal stats for that monster as listed in its entry in the monster manual (or wherever it's from) since pao turns you into an average member of whatever species.

Objects use their hardness and thickness in inches to determine their hp. Most common substances are listed on the srd, and if there's no exact analogue, use whatever's closest.

[Crake]

Polymorph Any Object discharges HD limit from the polymorph family. It could transform human to pebble and pebble to human as well as pebble to troll, manticore to shrew and shrew to manticore, kitten to tiger and tiger to kitten. The spell could even transform tooth pick to massive door and vice versa.

It is all cool but I'm at loss. How should I calculate actual HP of transformed creature? Normal polymoph adjust ability scores and reapplying Con to HP bonus is all that needed. But PAO works differently. It could transform kitten to tiger and tiger to kitten. How should I calculated resulted HP for that cases. What about objects? They have no HD, jus size and HP. So if I transform tooth pick to door should the door have the old minuscule HP value or full door HP? What about transformations between objects and creatures. Creatures have HD, object have no HD, how should I calculate new HP values?

Alter self says the target retains it's original hit points, and polymorph has no wording to override that, so polymorph does not actually adjust hit points from your con change as far as I'm aware.

[Venger]

Alter self says the target retains it's original hit points, and polymorph has no wording to override that, so polymorph does not actually adjust hit points from your con change as far as I'm aware.
You're right. That's crazy! if you want someone as a +1 to your cousin's wedding, make sure it's a boulder and not a pebble in case they get a paper cut or something. Not dysfunctional, but definitely weird. So the pebble human would have ~15hp. Still more than a commoner, depending on the exact dimensions of the pebble.
Yeah, they changed it in the 3.5 update. It used to give you extra hp in 3.0

[ayvango]

Alter self says the target retains it's original hit points
Of course alter self keeps original hit points since it doesn't change ability statistics. But polymorph does and generic rules applies.

WOTC archive contains 4 articles about polymorphing that provides useful examples.

[Anthrowhale]

Of course alter self keeps original hit points since it doesn't change ability statistics. But polymorph does and generic rules applies.

WOTC archive contains 4 articles about polymorphing that provides useful examples.

There is conflicting information here.

Rules of the Game: Polymorphing (part 3) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) says:
Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score.

On the other hand, the reference to Alter Self takes precedence over general rules, and Alter self says:
Your ... hit points ... all remain the same.

[Jack_Simth]

Polymorph Any Object discharges HD limit from the polymorph family. It could transform human to pebble and pebble to human as well as pebble to troll, manticore to shrew and shrew to manticore, kitten to tiger and tiger to kitten. The spell could even transform tooth pick to massive door and vice versa.

It is all cool but I'm at loss. How should I calculate actual HP of transformed creature? Normal polymoph adjust ability scores and reapplying Con to HP bonus is all that needed. But PAO works differently. It could transform kitten to tiger and tiger to kitten. How should I calculated resulted HP for that cases. What about objects? They have no HD, jus size and HP. So if I transform tooth pick to door should the door have the old minuscule HP value or full door HP? What about transformations between objects and creatures. Creatures have HD, object have no HD, how should I calculate new HP values?

Not defined in RAW, ask your DM.

There's some Rules (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a) of (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a) the (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a) articles, a design article on it (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a), and a (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a) set (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060509a) of (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060516a) revisits (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060523a). But that doesn't necessarily help - lots of folks view Rules of The Game as Skip or Andy's house rules.

That said, there's basically two routes folks will take with it:
1) Such things as "Hit dice" "Base Attack Bonus", "Base Fort", "skill ranks" and so on are nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities) for an object, and "The modifier for a nonability is +0." - thus, that boulder you turn into a Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#stoneGolem) with Polymorph Any Object (-http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) has a +8 attack bonus (+9 Strength, -1 size) and saves of +0/-1/+0 (0/0/0 before ability modifiers; Dex is just 9, so that gets a -1).
2) The object doesn't have it, so it gets whatever the real creature would have in that regard unless the spell used explicitly wouldn't give the thing. So that boulder you turn into a Stone Golem via Polymorph Any Object is missing the Slow (no Su abilities), the DR (no Ex special qualities) and the Immunity to Magic (likewise), but otherwise uses the normal statistics of a Stone Golem (so it attacks at +18, and has saves of +4/+3/+4).

... but the only person that matters for this discussion is the DM in question.

[ayvango]

There is conflicting information here.

Rules of the Game: Polymorphing (part 3) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) says:

On the other hand, the reference to Alter Self takes precedence over general rules, and Alter self says:
I believe that FAQ has precedence over rules like Rules Compendium has precedence over PHB. Why would be they printed otherwise. Well, it is my private opinion I have no intention on insisting the most ruleful way of playing D&D.

Let just suppose that in that case FAQ has precedence and normal polymorph actually changes target's HP. Let's believe that assuming physical stats override "No HP change" by immediate contradiction. How should PaO work in that case?

[Segev]

The easiest thing to do is have PAO act like a similar polymorphing spell if it's having a similar effect, save where PAO explicitly alters things. But, where it's doing something rather new, just have the target become as much the new creature as possible.

So object to creature, you get an average creature. Likely without (Su) and (Sp) abilities. But creature to creature, use the other polymorph spells as a guideline for what translates, keeping in mind the removal of HD limitations.


Alternatively, you could treat any object as an animated object of its type for the "base creature" and use that to determine if you can PAO it into a desired creature or vice-versa.

[Venger]

I believe that FAQ has precedence over rules like Rules Compendium has precedence over PHB. Why would be they printed otherwise. Well, it is my private opinion I have no intention on insisting the most ruleful way of playing D&D.

Let just suppose that in that case FAQ has precedence and normal polymorph actually changes target's HP. Let's believe that assuming physical stats override "No HP change" by immediate contradiction. How should PaO work in that case?

For future reference, rules of the game are FAQ and FAQ are not RAW. When there is a conflict, you go with RAW. They were printed because the designers enjoyed showing off how they didn't understand basic rules like grappling. If you want to houserule here to obviate this weirdness, that's probably a good idea.

[False God]

Just grab the average from the book, since PAO makes something into an average example of something else. I mean roll 'em if you wanna roll 'em, but average is always easy.

[ayvango]

Just grab the average from the book, since PAO makes something into an average example of something else. I mean roll 'em if you wanna roll 'em, but average is always easy.
So transforming kitty to tiger give the creature HD boost?

[Venger]

So transforming kitty to tiger give the creature HD boost?

No. Polymorph doesn't affect your HD. The HD is just there so you know what the limit is for what you can transform into.

[ayvango]

So you retain old HD, but get average tiger HP that based on tiger's HD instead of yours? So instead of recalculating hit points just take average and care not about details. Well, pretty simple way to go. And avoiding possible collisions.

[Venger]

So you retain old HD, but get average tiger HP that based on tiger's HD instead of yours? So instead of recalculating hit points just take average and care not about details. Well, pretty simple way to go. And avoiding possible collisions.

Just to be clear, that's not how the RAW apparently works, but as a houserule/fix, that sounds reasonable.

[Crake]

Considering that you can turn a shrew into a manticore, the HD cap seems to be only be in effect for the target form, and not the original's form. Personally, the way I houserule it is if the HD of the target form is greater than the HD of the creature to be transformed, then the resulting form has the mind of a new creature, rather than the original's, and uses the base stats for it, thus turning a pebble OR a commoner into a t-rex would result in a (mostly) standard-statted t-rex, including the standard t-rex's intelligence and mannerisms, with no memories of it's life as a commoner. On the other hand though, if you were to transform a level 18 fighter into a t-rex, it would function for the most part as polymorph, only the fighter would be reduced to 2 int. He would however have his memories and mannerisms, as well as his normal bab and saves etc.

Basically: HD lower than target creature = new creature with standard base stats, HD equal to or greater than target creature = polymorphed creature.

Again, my personal houserule.