Mechanic and moral question (hostage, 0 hp)

[Pinjata]

Hey guys,

we have a goblin, holding hostage a Commoner. Goblin is holding commoner by the throat and has a dagger pointed to commoner's neck. Goblin says he'll cut Commoner's throat, unless Party drop their weapons and move away. One of party memebers is a LG Paladin.

First question: Mechanically, Goblin has no chance of any credible threat. If he cuts Commoner's throat, Commoner drops to 0 hp and has at least three more turns to roll Death save rolls. Basically, party can rush in in one round and even heal in the same round. Hostage situation is a non-issue for those, who know 5e mechanic.

How would you make it an issue?

Second question is a moral one. Say, you have a Paladin and the rest of a party, challenged by this AND IT IS MECHANICALLY AN ISSUE. Goblin has set up Ready action and CAN insta-kill poor Commoner.

How should non-evil party, especially mr. Paladin act?

Let's also say, there is a time frame. Within 5 minutes, goblin's buddies are arriving and there is a lot of them. No time to wait for goblin to fall asleep/become thirsty, etc ...

thanks

[LordEntrails]

First, the game mechanics you site are for normal situations, not special situations like the one you describe. The slit the throat threat can work anyway you want, just make sure when the players use the tactic it works the same way. AND make sure the players know that normal combat mechanics do not apply.

How should they act? However their character feel. Such a situation, and most any response to it, it not inherently good or evil. Take your paladin as an example, perhaps they are honor bound to never bring harm to an innocent, then they would surrender. But, perhaps their code says they must never allow evil to triumph hence it grows stronger and brings more evil upon the world. Then they would be forced to try and kill the goblin, even if it means the hostage is killed in the process.

Morales and ethics are complicated, and subjective. The rules avoid trying to detail those and create rules for them. If they DM is going to impose such consequences in their world based upon some ethical/moral viewpoint, it needs to be made clear to the players. Otherwise, just let the players play the character as they see fit. If they stray way beyond what their character traits indicate, then have a conversation with the player.

[MeimuHakurei]

Commoners have 4 HP and that one in particular is probably restrained to a point where they can't reasonably avoid it, thus probably granting the Goblin a critical hit. Most of the time, that will be death of massive damage as long as the goblin can get at least 8 damage in (if he's a Rogue, that's particularly easy). There's a chance the commoner will endure the cut for just enough that the party can save them, but the odds are terrible.

As for the moral question (assuming an Oath of Devotion Paladin), as long as the Paladin is actively trying to save the goblin (either by trying to negotiate, swiftly taking out the goblin or whatever else needed) I'd not consider it a violation if the Commoner dies. Failing to save someone is not an evil act.

[MoiMagnus]

1) If you deal 4 damages (full HP) to a 0HP commoner, he instantly dies.

2) The basic rule for attacking someone defense less (like paralised, but I would also include hostages with a dagger under the throat) is "critical damages". Which for a goblin with a dagger would be 2d4+2.

So the goblin succeed at killing the hostage.

About the Paladin, it kind of depends on your universe. Lawful Good does not mean naive (it can, but that's up to the player choice).

If the Paladin know that the goblin will likely kill the hostage even if they cooperate (this is one behaviour a Chaotic Evil goblin could have), then he has no reasons to try to negotiate, and will not be punished for that.

However, if he has reasons to trust the goblin (if in your universe, that kind of negotiation is known to be respected by both parties, even humans vs goblins), then he has the moral obligation to try to negotiate for the hostage.

[Pinjata]

1) If you deal 4 damages (full HP) to a 0HP commoner, he instantly dies.

2) The basic rule for attacking someone defense less (like paralised, but I would also include hostages with a dagger under the throat) is "critical damages". Which for a goblin with a dagger would be 2d4+2.

Where did you pull this from? Paralysed states that attacker gets advantage and crit. Okay. Goblin may still roll poorly on to-hit, but let's say he hits and crits with dagger, which goes from 1d4+2 to 2d4+2. There is still good chance of rolling under 8 and not insta-killing character.



About the Paladin, it kind of depends on your universe. Lawful Good does not mean naive (it can, but that's up to the player choice).

If the Paladin know that the goblin will likely kill the hostage even if they cooperate (this is one behaviour a Chaotic Evil goblin could have), then he has no reasons to try to negotiate, and will not be punished for that.

However, if he has reasons to trust the goblin (if in your universe, that kind of negotiation is known to be respected by both parties, even humans vs goblins), then he has the moral obligation to try to negotiate for the hostage.

It is Faerun setting and, in order to not make things too complicated - I'll say it s a Generic Paladin. Sorry, I did not explain that before, I forgot. :/

[hymer]

Where did you pull this from?
The death saves are for PCs. NPCs get them if the DM wants them to. I'll look up the quote, I think it's in the MM under hit points.

Edit: It's noted both in the hit point section in the PHB and the MM that monsters usually die/are destroyed at 0 hp.
2nd edit: And in case the word 'monster' is a stumbling bock for someone, the term is defined in the MM under 'What is a Monster?': It is any creature that can be interacted with and potentially fought and killed.

[Xeko]

Well, first, NPCs don't get death saves unless the DM specifically allows for that in their game. And second, a creature that is in death saves could be instant killed by an enemy. I believe in previous editions it was referred to as a coup de grace attack. Basically, if you attack someone in death saves, it's an instant kill. It is the reason why if your whole party is wiped, your character is still considered dead, even if you passed your death saves and would otherwise be fine in a few hours. It is just assumed that the enemies, after the immediate threat of combat had passed, went around finishing off all the unconscious PCs. This is something that you don't normally see in combat though, because a) the unconscious PC is not a threat, while the still standing ones clearly are, so pretty much all enemies, even the wild animal ones, would prioritize the still standing PCs. And b) it's just a cruel thing for a DM to do to a PC.

In this situation, I would assume the commoner is restrained and very likely injured already. I would probably treat it, personally, as though they were already at 0 HP, but were stable. Like a PC that is downed, but then passes their death saves. In that situation, any attack on them could be considered an auto-kill, by virtue of the coup de grace rules of prior editions. But, even if they were at FULL HP, there's about a pretty decent shot that the goblin's attack would be an instant kill anyway (8 damage would do it), and it would almost certainly bring the commoner to 0... which could be considered instant death for an NPC, or could be death saves, depending on the DM. But in either case, it's not a good look for the commoner. Basically, I would absolutely rule it that, if the DM says the goblin can kill the commoner, then the goblin can kill the commoner. The mechanics DO allow for it, and even if they didn't, it's not like the mechanics necessarily apply evenly to all non-combat situations anyway.

As for how the party should approach it... well, let the players do whatever they want, really.
I mean, the whole point of the game is for the players to get into their characters and develop stories with them. Unless the paladin is doing something that is BLATANTLY opposed to their tenants, I wouldn't worry about it. Most morality systems are flexible and situational anyway. Though, I would suggest that, if they do try to rush the goblin, to beware of metagaming. The players know about death saves and game mechanics, but do the characters? That's not to say they couldn't just rush in anyway, but if I were the player in that situation, I would definitely make it a point to emphasize my own arrogance there. My character is doing it because he is super cocky, confident in his healing abilities. But, that also kind of depends on the experience of the players, and whether or not that's even a concern at your table.

[Pinjata]

The death saves are for PCs. NPCs get them if the DM wants them to. I'll look up the quote, I think it's in the MM under hit points.

Edit: It's noted both in the hit point section in the PHB and the MM that monsters usually die/are destroyed at 0 hp.
2nd edit: And in case the word 'monster' is a stumbling bock for someone, the term is defined in the MM under 'What is a Monster?': It is any creature that can be interacted with and potentially fought and killed.

Huh. Thanks. I don't think, I can afford this with my players. They'd get a hissy fit, if I did. But thanks - appreciated.

[MoiMagnus]

Where did you pull this from? Paralysed states that attacker gets advantage and crit. Okay. Goblin may still roll poorly on to-hit, but let's say he hits and crits with dagger, which goes from 1d4+2 to 2d4+2. There is still good chance of rolling under 8 and not insta-killing character.

I've just checked the rules:

Assuming the hostage is unconscious (0HP, unconscious condition), attack rolls have advantage, and automatically crits since they are within 5 feets. If the target is still conscious, you could argue against the crit. I still would apply it since conscious hostage are more practical narrative-wise and I don't want to systematically put my hostages unconscious.

Note that those rules are for when the target is unconscious on the ground, and you are in hurry with the fighting around, and you might by mistake strike on the armours. Here, we're talking about the dagger on the throat. There is no missing possible. Hence, there is not need to roll any dice, this is an automatic hit.

[That's an extension of the DMG p237 reminder: "At any time, you can decide that a player's action is automatically successful." As long as it is reasonably used, there is no reason not to extend this to NPCs]

Since the hostage is already at 0HP, if he suffer damages equal to its maximal hit points (4), then he instandly dies (PHB p197 "you die if the remaining damages equal or exceeds your hit point maximum").

You probably want the hostage to be either unconscious at 0HP (from a non-lethal attack), or barely conscious at 1HP.

[Andy 7t1]

What do you want as an outcome?

Are we playing a game of "stiff the paladin"?

Do you want them to use persuasion/intimidate/deceive to talk the goblin down?

Do you want the high initiative ranged specialist to demonstrate "action beats reaction" and take the goblin down?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

That sounds like the best situation to cast sleep.

My paladins are usually vengeance, my paladins will rush to attack the Goblin, after the Goblin is dead they will try to save the commoner(first destroy evil, then everything else).

Ask all the players what they plan to do and why.
A talk OOC on what happening can help everyone.

[Sigreid]

Mechanically has been covered. Morally, the LG paladin should try to save the hostage, if possible. That doesn't mean he and the party have to drop their weapons. It could just as easily mean he tries to hold the goblin's attention long enough for another party member to disable the goblin in one clear strike or just continue the standoff until the goblin gives up. Maybe even pointing out that harming the hostage will immediately result in him meeting his god.

Morally wrong options available to the paladin and group right now would pretty much be just walking away, having a flashback to the movie Speed and shooting the hostage, or goading the goblin into doing it so the party has a clear shot. That doesn't mean the paladin won't feel bad if they try to rescue the hostage and fail.

[Ninja_Prawn]

If you think about how people behave in real life, and in fiction that's set in the real world, the hero doesn't endanger the hostage. That's how you know they're the hero! Provoking the goblin into murder - or making an attack yourself that could hit the hostage on a miss - are not things that good or lawful people do and, when a character is portrayed doing those things, it's almost always a 'kick the dog' moment that's meant to establish them as an edgy, 'morally grey' (which is usually a euphemism for evil) anti-hero.

And thinking about it from the other side, what's the point of kidnapping hostages in the first place, if you can't reasonably expect most people to play 'by the rules'? The goblin obviously expects that any good person (and most neutral people) will give them what they want in exchange for the hostage's life.

Clearly, this is a great opportunity for a clever hero to come up with a 'third way'. The sleep spell, as mentioned, is a perfect solution.

[darknite]

Just don't get into 'how should the players act' as a DM, in a heavy-handed way. Let them do what they want and then assess consequences situationally later on.

[Darc_Vader]

Well, first, NPCs don't get death saves unless the DM specifically allows for that in their game. And second, a creature that is in death saves could be instant killed by an enemy. I believe in previous editions it was referred to as a coup de grace attack. Basically, if you attack someone in death saves, it's an instant kill.

This isn’t exactly how it works in 5e. Any attacks against an unconscious creature are made with advantage (unless cancelled by another source of disadvantage), and a hit (at least on someone that isn’t stable) is a failed death save, and if it is from within 5 feet it is an automatic crit and thus 2 failed death saves. It’s very likely to kill, but there’s still a chance to get three successes before three fails (unless they are attacked again of course). I’m afb so I’m not sure what the rule is for unconscious but stable characters, but at best it still puts you back into a ‘dying’ state.

Of course, in a non-combat situation it could be ruled that they’re helpless, therefore they’re dead.

[JackPhoenix]

In that situation, any attack on them could be considered an auto-kill, by virtue of the coup de grace rules of prior editions.

Rules from different editions don't mean anything. By virtue of prior edition rules, Pun Pun should be a thing.

[tieren]

Also on the mechanical side, there is no such thing as the Ready Action outside of combat. Unless you are already in initiative the goblin can not take the ready action and therefore would need to win initiative to be able to kill the hostage before the PC's.

[KorvinStarmast]

1) If you deal 4 damages (full HP) to a 0HP commoner, he instantly dies. Not strictly true by the rules as written. The rules do not make the absolute statement that you assert. This is the rules text in question.
Dropping to 0 Hit Points

When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.
Monsters and Death

Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws. Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the DM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.

You should not tell this DM asking the question that they should not use the rules as written. Granted, when you are the DM I will completely support your take on the rules. A lot of DM's I've played with do exactly as you say since it makes the bookkeeping simpler.

I, on the other hand, frequently take the option to do the death saves thing. This DM has already established in the OP that approach to this scenario.

and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions

I would ask folks not to hand out opinion as fact.


The death saves are for PCs. NPCs get them if the DM wants them to. I'll look up the quote I provided the PHB quote. It is in the basic rules and the PHB. I don't have the MM to hand, it may also have a quote on that ... if you find it that would be neat.

Edit: It's noted both in the hit point section in the PHB and the MM that monsters usually die/are destroyed at 0 hp. 2nd edit: And in case the word 'monster' is a stumbling bock for someone, the term is defined in the MM under 'What is a Monster?': It is any creature that can be interacted with and potentially fought and killed. I'll get the exact MM quote later, thanks!

[Conradine]

The solution is simple: shoot the hostage. Kneecap him with two well placed arrows, so he'll go nowhere and the goblin will have no hostage.

[KorvinStarmast]

{a few bits edited out for brevity} Assuming the hostage is unconscious (0HP, unconscious condition), attack rolls have advantage, and automatically crits since they are within 5 feets. If the target is still conscious, you could argue against the crit.
[That's an extension of the DMG p237 reminder: "At any time, you can decide that a player's action is automatically successful." As long as it is reasonably used, there is no reason not to extend this to NPCs]

Since the hostage is already at 0 HP, if he suffer damages equal to its maximal hit points (4), then he instandly dies (PHB p197 "you die if the remaining damages equal or exceeds your hit point maximum").

You probably want the hostage to be either unconscious at 0HP (from a non-lethal attack), or barely conscious at 1HP. Much nicer response, and some great options for the DM to use in this situation. *golf clap*

[JackPhoenix]

The solution is simple: shoot the hostage. Kneecap him with two well placed arrows, so he'll go nowhere and the goblin will have no hostage.

That's a lot of arrows for one commoner. But, eh, if you want to be absolutely sure he's dead....

[Hail Tempus]

Second question is a moral one. Say, you have a Paladin and the rest of a party, challenged by this AND IT IS MECHANICALLY AN ISSUE. Goblin has set up Ready action and CAN insta-kill poor Commoner.

How should non-evil party, especially mr. Paladin act?

Let's also say, there is a time frame. Within 5 minutes, goblin's buddies are arriving and there is a lot of them. No time to wait for goblin to fall asleep/become thirsty, etc ... It wasn't clear from your post, were the party and the goblin already in combat, with initiative determined? If not, the goblin can't ready an action to attack the commoner. Ready actions only exist in combat.

The correct way, mechanically, to run this encounter is to let everyone roll initiative and let the chips fall where they may. If one or more of the PCs roll higher than the goblin, they're likely to kill him before he can attack the hostage. If he wins initiative, the hostage is likely dead. In either event, there should be no negative consequences to the paladin's status as a paladin. Trying and failing to stop an evil act is not a violation of any of the tenets of the various paladin oaths.

[LordEntrails]

It is Faerun setting and, in order to not make things too complicated - I'll say it s a Generic Paladin. Sorry, I did not explain that before, I forgot. :/
Doesn't matter. Why do you want to dictate was the character does or is willing to do? Only the player should have that ability.


Huh. Thanks. I don't think, I can afford this with my players. They'd get a hissy fit, if I did. But thanks - appreciated.
Are you saying you make death saving throws for every NPC your players encounter?


If you think about how people behave in real life, and in fiction that's set in the real world, the hero doesn't endanger the hostage. That's how you know they're the hero! Provoking the goblin into murder - or making an attack yourself that could hit the hostage on a miss - are not things that good or lawful people do and, when a character is portrayed doing those things, it's almost always a 'kick the dog' moment that's meant to establish them as an edgy, 'morally grey' (which is usually a euphemism for evil) anti-hero.

Uh, you have a pretty limited exposure to heroic fiction. I can think of two examples; 1) Batman, 2) Spies (as it's called in the UK or MI-5 as it is called in the US/Netflix).


Just don't get into 'how should the players act' as a DM, in a heavy-handed way. Let them do what they want and then assess consequences situationally later on.
Exactly!

[NecessaryWeevil]

Given the situation as presented by the OP - that we assume that there is no way the party can kill the goblin before it kills the hostage - my recent Oath of the Crown paladin would say the following:

"Yes, I'm putting down my weapon now and stepping back. If you release the hostage and run, I give you my word as a paladin that I will not try to stop you or harm you and I will ask my comrades to do likewise. Please don't try to take the hostage with you, as I won't let you enslave them or kill them later. You won't get very far trying to drag a human with you."

Of course, other perspectives are also possible, as some have touched on already. Do I trust the goblin to release the hostage? Does the damage the goblin will do in the future outweigh the life of one commoner? Do I want to encourage hostage-taking as a tactic? Do my superiors have policies around this sort of situation?

[Xeko]

Well, I think the OP is hung up on the term Lawful Good. I view the good and evil spectrum as less about what a character will do, and more about how they would feel about doing it. A "Good" character is absolutely capable of doing bad things, if they have no other options, or can be convinced by a less "good" party member that it is the best option. They just don't particularly enjoy it, is all. Superman (a Neutral Good character) has killed before. And he will kill again.

The Law and Chaos spectrum, meanwhile, sort of does dictate actions, to a certain degree.
"Lawful" just means that the character has a set of self-imposed rules that they will never ever break, even if it means going against their morals. And an important thing to note, the personal code in question doesn't have to be the actual law of the land. Batman, for example, is a Lawful Good character. He will never, ever, kill. Even when he KNOWS that by not killing someone like The Joker, he is allowing hundreds, or thousands even, of innocents to die. He has the power to prevent it, but doesn't, because doing so would break his own rule. The "Lawful" part is much more important than the "Good" part for Lawful Good characters. But, Batman still hacks computers, breaks into private property, tortures, and otherwise breaks the law left right and center. His personal code of conduct, his own rule to never kill, is completely separate from what the laws set down by the government say. In the case of Paladins, the code they follow should be really really easy. Its the Tenets of their Paladin Oath. That's it. Those vague rules are the only things you as a DM should be concerned about, when it comes to a Paladin's actions. As long as whatever they do falls into those rules, then the Paladin can take any action they see fit. You use the term "hero" before, but who says Paladins are automatically heroes? Being Lawful Good doesn't make you a boy scout. Especially not when the "Law" you follow is something like The Oath of Conquest, for example. Or Vengeance, or The Crown, or really any number of Paladin Oaths, really.

[Lunali]

Characters (PC or otherwise) that don't have their alignment as an innate part of their being, (celestials, fiends, etc) do not have their behavior determined in any way by their alignment. Alignment is the result of behavior, not the other way around, changing your alignment has almost no mechanical effect.

[Sigreid]

Also on the mechanical side, there is no such thing as the Ready Action outside of combat. Unless you are already in initiative the goblin can not take the ready action and therefore would need to win initiative to be able to kill the hostage before the PC's.

I would consider an active hostage situation like this to be combat and initiative would already have been rolled.

[Glorthindel]

Also, its worth pointing out that even if the party know they can easily heal the commoner before they bleed out (though as others have pointed out, this is not guaranteed, or even likely), said commoner is likely to be pretty pissed off that their life was treated in such a cavalier attitude by the party. That knife to the throat would have hurt, and it is unlikely the commoner has ever experienced the unpleasant experience of death and being brought back, so there is likely going to be some mental trauma for them to overcome.

[DevilMcam]

By RAW the goblin can not have de readied action unless initiative has been rolled (Let's say he is over confident in his smart hostage plan). Besides readied action occure AFTER the trigger so at least one of the party member should have a chance at doing something even if the6goblin wins initiative and ready his action.
A wizard could magic missile his face, à rogue could throw de dagger (and sneak attack Because of the commoner) someone could cast sanctuary on the hostage, etc

[Sigreid]

I think it's worth noting that it's only in the movies that a hostage situation is anything other than a waiting game. I cant remember the last time I heard of a hostage taker getting what they want.

[KorvinStarmast]

someone could cast sanctuary on the hostage, etcWe have a winner. :smallbiggrin: