Mearls’s HFH - The Slayer (Fighter Archetype)

[jaappleton]

When Mearls did the Happy Fun Hour, at the time, it was fairly rough to critique the stuff because the text was literally just the text on his screen. Major props to ThinkDM for transcribing everything.

https://thinkdm.org/hfh/slayer-fighter/

I won’t lie, I like it. I’d like more Martial Exploits available so you aren’t limited to three forever, but it was rough playtest material.

It’s like a Battle Master, but more powerful, though you can use the abilities less often (as this is long rest based).

[Millstone85]

You made me think the series was back. :smallfrown:

[PeteNutButter]

Surprisingly not terrible, compared to the some of his homebrew. The THP are a bit high when compared to the samurai, but honestly the samurai's are too low to have much impact.

The high level abilities aren't good enough to be worth staying in fighter.

Bellringer is the whole class. It's a better stunning strike that scales off of your attack stat. Paralyze is auto-crits! Plus the advantage it gives completely makes masterful strike redundant except against the highest AC foes or foes that won't fail the save. 9 uses per long rest at level 11... whew that's rough.

[jaappleton]

Surprisingly not terrible, compared to the some of his homebrew. The THP are a bit high when compared to the samurai, but honestly the samurai's are too low to have much impact.

The high level abilities aren't good enough to be worth staying in fighter.

Bellringer is the whole class. It's a better stunning strike that scales off of your attack stat. Paralyze is auto-crits! Plus the advantage it gives completely makes masterful strike redundant except against the highest AC foes or foes that won't fail the save. 9 uses per long rest at level 11... whew that's rough.

I think its a solid base for an archetype.

The Bellringer ability is unique in that it doesn't specify Humanoids, like the spell Hold Person does. Though HP targets Wisdom. Stunning Strike, like Bellringer, does target Con.

The flavor text even states that its designed to basically blow its whole payload to take down something super quickly. It... certainly does that.

I don't like how the saves are relegated to Strength, I think it could work fine being based off Strength or Dex. Why should Finesse users and Archers be left out of the fun? But I suppose thats an easy house rule fix.

As it stands, my favorite race for it would be Half Orc. Bellringer and their extra dice on crits is a wonderful pairing.

EDIT: I also would not be surprised if these Martial Exploits made their way into some sort of revision for the Ranger. I've heard rumors, but admittedly, that was many months ago.

[Daghoulish]

I don't like how the saves are relegated to Strength, I think it could work fine being based off Strength or Dex. Why should Finesse users and Archers be left out of the fun? But I suppose thats an easy house rule fix.

I kinda disagree with this and kinda enjoy the focus on strength. The flavor text talks about how brutal this fighter is being in battle and it kind of feels like a barbarian, where you use raw strength to overwhelm the enemy. Using dexterity to make "a brutal attack that knocks the target senseless" doesn't sound right to me. I think it might be fun where the battlemaster was a dexterity based subclass and this was a strength based one. Giving you two sides of the coin, where dexterity has more maneuver and can get them back more often but the Slayer is more brutal and focuses on doing the most damage possible. Looking over it again, it's only bellringer that cares about strength, you could still use masterful strike with dexterity or even a bow, it just calls for a weapon attack.

[PeteNutButter]

I think its a solid base for an archetype.

The Bellringer ability is unique in that it doesn't specify Humanoids, like the spell Hold Person does. Though HP targets Wisdom. Stunning Strike, like Bellringer, does target Con.

The flavor text even states that its designed to basically blow its whole payload to take down something super quickly. It... certainly does that.

I don't like how the saves are relegated to Strength, I think it could work fine being based off Strength or Dex. Why should Finesse users and Archers be left out of the fun? But I suppose thats an easy house rule fix.

As it stands, my favorite race for it would be Half Orc. Bellringer and their extra dice on crits is a wonderful pairing.

EDIT: I also would not be surprised if these Martial Exploits made their way into some sort of revision for the Ranger. I've heard rumors, but admittedly, that was many months ago.

I also caught the str but not dex thing. Seems like an oversight or its a big departure from the design of the fighter class to date this edition.

The more I think about it, the more I'm pretty sure Bellringer is overpowered. Nine uses per long rest at 11? You can spam them? If 3 attacks hit, that means they've got to make 3 con saves. Even something with legendary saves is going down fast if you're willing to burn up your uses. Imagine if there were a monk in the party, all sad that their stuff is the same but worse.

[TheUser]

Uhm...definitely not the intent but Bellringer has infinite uses after 10th level so long as you don't kill anything you've paralyzed.

Once the target saves against the paralysis you get refunded the use.

[MrStabby]

This seems much more of a ranger feel than a fighter feel, although it does look quite fun.

I don't think I have ever seen a class that claims to be able to be a better diplomat due to pole vaulting ability though. Seems a little odd, but nice to have some more out of combat tools. That said,either you are stepping on the toes of classes that chose to be diplomats or you are not getting much mileage out of it.

Adamantine bones? Action? Bonus action? nothing? Seems a pretty big distinction there.

All in all I think it actually has some good ideas. Each of the exploits seems really useful, you get few enough to not be overpowering, enough to get multiple uses perday. My only gripe is that the fighter class has too much good stuff (especially the early levels) which has limited the uses per day of these abilities. I also suppose that after level 13 it feels like the class really slows down. An initiative bonus isn't new or unique

[jaappleton]

I also caught the str but not dex thing. Seems like an oversight or its a big departure from the design of the fighter class to date this edition.

The more I think about it, the more I'm pretty sure Bellringer is overpowered. Nine uses per long rest at 11? You can spam them? If 3 attacks hit, that means they've got to make 3 con saves. Even something with legendary saves is going down fast if you're willing to burn up your uses. Imagine if there were a monk in the party, all sad that their stuff is the same but worse.

I definitely think the usage scaling after level 10 needs adjustment.

Maybe switch it to regenerating on a short rest? Not sure how to handle it but yeah, the scaling starting there needs adjustment, absolutely.

[Amechra]

Because people are rightfully commenting on the (much more broken) Bellringer...

Unless I'm missing something, it looks like Masterful Strike makes you want to miss the attack, since (by my reading) you don't get the bonus damage unless you turn the miss into a hit (that might not be intended, but that's what it looks like). Which is weird.

In any case, Masterful Strike looks pretty strong if you combo it with Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter (or spellcasting - notice how it just says "attack").

[jaappleton]

Because people are rightfully commenting on the (much more broken) Bellringer...

Unless I'm missing something, it looks like Masterful Strike makes you want to miss the attack, since (by my reading) you don't get the bonus damage unless you turn the miss into a hit (that might not be intended, but that's what it looks like). Which is weird.

In any case, Masterful Strike looks pretty strong if you combo it with Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter (or spellcasting - notice how it just says "attack").

I think Masterful Strike is obviously something to use when you NEED to hit.

If I’m going to go GWM and I really need to hit this mage for some solid damage to break their Concentration, it’s worth it to use Masterful Strike because either A) I hit, or B) I turn the miss into a hit. Either way, I accomplish my goal: Smacking the hell out of that mage.

Since the HFH stuff is essentially the Alpha to UA’s Beta material, I think it’s safe to say some wording needs to be cleaned up.

Intent is a HUGE keyword when dealing with HFH stuff, even much more so than UA.

[Rukelnikov]

Masterful strike is absurdly OP.

Yeah Bellringer is OP, but Masterful Strike allows you to pretty much burst any creature in 1 round.

Blowing all in 1 round, you could action surge for 8 attacks with, lets say a greatsword, doing 2d6+6d8+15(*), for a total of 16d6+48d8+120, this averages to 56+216+120 = 392

And this is before taking Flaming Weapon or crits into consideration...

Of course the obvious combo is to do Bellringer until target is paralyzed and then Masterful Strikes.

[Amechra]

I get that intent is important for this kind of thing, I'm just confused as to whether or not it is the intent.

Masterful Strike might be intended to only work on a miss, for the exact reason of Greatsword Spam pointed out by Rukelnikov. That being said, that just means you combine it with GWM first...

[MrStabby]

Masterful strike is absurdly OP.

Yeah Bellringer is OP, but Masterful Strike allows you to pretty much burst any creature in 1 round.

Blowing all in 1 round, you could action surge for 8 attacks with, lets say a greatsword, doing 2d6+6d8+15(*), for a total of 16d6+48d8+120, this averages to 56+216+120 = 392

And this is before taking Flaming Weapon or crits into consideration...

Of course the obvious combo is to do Bellringer until target is paralyzed and then Masterful Strikes.

Yeah, I have to say this is a bit of a worry.

Sure, this isn't the only class that can turn a dramatic boss-fight into an anticlimax, but I don't think the game really benefits from too many more of them.

[jaappleton]

Yeah, I have to say this is a bit of a worry.

Sure, this isn't the only class that can turn a dramatic boss-fight into an anticlimax, but I don't think the game really benefits from too many more of them.

It is, though?

I mean, there’s tons of ways to generate massive damage in a single round.

Spellcasters can do totally crazy stuff.

Paladins can blow a ton of smites in a single round.

Fighters are typically about pushing out consistent, round to round damage. The Slayer can... Don’t get me wrong. It’s a BIG Nova. But they also become totally depleted for the day by doing it.

Any class can put up absurd numbers by blowing their payload.

Also, you're talking epic tier play here. If you don't drop 200 points of damage when you fart, you're doing something wrong. And you need to incorporate Legendary Resistance an all sorts of other stuff the nasties have at such high levels.

[MrStabby]

It is, though?

I mean, there’s tons of ways to generate massive damage in a single round.

Spellcasters can do totally crazy stuff.

Paladins can blow a ton of smites in a single round.

Fighters are typically about pushing out consistent, round to round damage. The Slayer can... Don’t get me wrong. It’s a BIG Nova. But they also become totally depleted for the day by doing it.

Any class can put up absurd numbers by blowing their payload.

Also, you're talking epic tier play here. If you don't drop 200 points of damage when you fart, you're doing something wrong. And you need to incorporate Legendary Resistance an all sorts of other stuff the nasties have at such high levels.

You have listed a number of things that are wrong with the game. I was simply commenting that I don't want to add to them.

I think that any PC that prevents another PC from doing the cool thing that their PC is set up to do is a bad PC. If you get a character set up to kill an enemy, or at least decide a fight in a single round then there is a good chance that sometimes they will do it before their team mates get to do their cool thing. This is not cool. This is bad enough in a normal fight but if it is some kind of climactic boss-fight you want the result to be an open question until every player has at least had one turn and a chance to meaningfully contribute to the outcome.

Big nova classes make this harder.

[Dork_Forge]

Surprisingly not terrible, compared to the some of his homebrew. The THP are a bit high when compared to the samurai, but honestly the samurai's are too low to have much impact.

The high level abilities aren't good enough to be worth staying in fighter.

Bellringer is the whole class. It's a better stunning strike that scales off of your attack stat. Paralyze is auto-crits! Plus the advantage it gives completely makes masterful strike redundant except against the highest AC foes or foes that won't fail the save. 9 uses per long rest at level 11... whew that's rough.

You have to keep in mind though that the Samurai's thp aren't the main point of Fighting Spirit, it's just a bonus to getting advantage on all your attacks, whereas the expoits are just thp so it's more in line with something like False Life.

[PeteNutButter]

You have to keep in mind though that the Samurai's thp aren't the main point of Fighting Spirit, it's just a bonus to getting advantage on all your attacks, whereas the expoits are just thp so it's more in line with something like False Life.

True, it's not a straight comparison. But as written the exploits are free action economy and end up with a lot more uses. The temporary hp one is the weakest of the options and is still creeping onto the toes of several other subclasses that give THP, and usually in lesser amounts. IMO THP on long rest should be in this sort of range. That's roughly enough to absorb one to one and a half good hits all the way through the game.

[Dork_Forge]

True, it's not a straight comparison. But as written the exploits are free action economy and end up with a lot more uses. The temporary hp one is the weakest of the options and is still creeping onto the toes of several other subclasses that give THP, and usually in lesser amounts. IMO THP on long rest should be in this sort of range. That's roughly enough to absorb one to one and a half good hits all the way through the game.

My issue with the subclass (besides the power of the exploits being questionable) is that the uses scale up higher than anything else I can think off. Fighting Spirit is only 3 times per day (and later once per fight if you run out before then), other abilities are tied to a modifier (so max 5 unless you have an item to break the barrier) but by level 7 you can use exploits 7 time per day. Though looking over some other HFH subclasses tehy seem to just be erring on the side of too much to be later reigned in, I really hope they don't do what he suggested for the Mystic though (some minor tweaks to the previous UA and multiclassing clarifications would finish it nicely imo, not turning it into a different kind of spellcasting class or dividing it's abilities amongst subclasses for the main classes).

[PeteNutButter]

My issue with the subclass (besides the power of the exploits being questionable) is that the uses scale up higher than anything else I can think off. Fighting Spirit is only 3 times per day (and later once per fight if you run out before then), other abilities are tied to a modifier (so max 5 unless you have an item to break the barrier) but by level 7 you can use exploits 7 time per day. Though looking over some other HFH subclasses tehy seem to just be erring on the side of too much to be later reigned in, I really hope they don't do what he suggested for the Mystic though (some minor tweaks to the previous UA and multiclassing clarifications would finish it nicely imo, not turning it into a different kind of spellcasting class or dividing it's abilities amongst subclasses for the main classes).

As a general rule for playtesting, it makes sense to make things a little overpowered at first. If its too weak, no one playtests it, and you get no data. If it's too strong, you can tone it down a little, but then at least people can point other things out as well, such as if they enjoyed the class or felt like it was missing something, etc. Designing my own system, I can say several times I've thought, "I'll just leave this here until someone comes around and confirms that it is broken like I think it is." I rag on UA content for being OP, but I'm starting to see why.

Sometimes though, they go way too far with that nerf bat.

[jaappleton]

You have listed a number of things that are wrong with the game. I was simply commenting that I don't want to add to them.

I think that any PC that prevents another PC from doing the cool thing that their PC is set up to do is a bad PC. If you get a character set up to kill an enemy, or at least decide a fight in a single round then there is a good chance that sometimes they will do it before their team mates get to do their cool thing. This is not cool. This is bad enough in a normal fight but if it is some kind of climactic boss-fight you want the result to be an open question until every player has at least had one turn and a chance to meaningfully contribute to the outcome.

Big nova classes make this harder.

This is very fair.

I've stepped on toes, and had my toes stepped on.

So I totally get what you're saying.

[MrStabby]

This is very fair.

I've stepped on toes, and had my toes stepped on.

So I totally get what you're saying.

I usually have it from the other side. I try and DM so everyone gets to do their thing, it can get really tough when one persons "thing" removes the need for another's.

I do wonder how I would feel about it in a game if I were playing a PC...

[jaappleton]

I usually have it from the other side. I try and DM so everyone gets to do their thing, it can get really tough when one persons "thing" removes the need for another's.

I do wonder how I would feel about it in a game if I were playing a PC...

On one hand, it really saves everyone else's resources because the fight is over quicker.

On the other hand, if the BBEG is dead before you get an action, you never got to contribute.

Think it depends a lot on the table.

[Trickery]

I'm not too concerned about balance. What bothers me is that this archetype seems like a battlemaster. Its primary mechanic is limited-use maneuvers.

It's bad enough when the BM is reskinned for other classes. We don't need more BM fighters, especially ones that might be better than the current BM.

There are other directions to take fighters. Tribal warriors are just one example of an archetype that hasn't been fully explored.

[MrStabby]

On one hand, it really saves everyone else's resources because the fight is over quicker.



Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing probably depends on if you like to have resources or to use resources.

I would be fine with it, as long as those resources were able to be used in as dramatic and as narratively significant a fight.

[Lille]

EDIT: I also would not be surprised if these Martial Exploits made their way into some sort of revision for the Ranger. I've heard rumors, but admittedly, that was many months ago.

I mean, both Adamantine Bones and Masterful Strike show up in this (https://thinkdm.org/hfh/revised-ranger-2018/) one, so...

[MeeposFire]

I also caught the str but not dex thing. Seems like an oversight or its a big departure from the design of the fighter class to date this edition.

The more I think about it, the more I'm pretty sure Bellringer is overpowered. Nine uses per long rest at 11? You can spam them? If 3 attacks hit, that means they've got to make 3 con saves. Even something with legendary saves is going down fast if you're willing to burn up your uses. Imagine if there were a monk in the party, all sad that their stuff is the same but worse.

It is not really the first time. The cavalier for instance gets bonuses from str and con and also uses saves based around str and nothing uses dex. So there is precedent.

[jaappleton]

It is not really the first time. The cavalier for instance gets bonuses from str and con and also uses saves based around str and nothing uses dex. So there is precedent.

Very, very true. I hadn't realized that.

And there's also the Arcane Archer, whose features are fairly reliant on the Longbow or Shortbow (Lv7 feature springs to mind).

So it does happen. I just hadn't realized how often it happens.

[MeeposFire]

Very, very true. I hadn't realized that.

And there's also the Arcane Archer, whose features are fairly reliant on the Longbow or Shortbow (Lv7 feature springs to mind).

So it does happen. I just hadn't realized how often it happens.

Like many other times in this edition I think they look at an idea and see if it thematically really pushes it towards one particular thing or not. The cavalier is thematically often seen in shiny heavy armor and using heavier weapons like larger swords or lances and so going strength based makes sense. Then look at battlemaster which is designed to be more general and is not seen as being drawn to a very specific set of equipment or archetypes so it gets abilities that are based on either.

[RulesJD]

Why is this thing increasing in power based on proficiency bonus? This instantly makes it the best level-dip for pretty much every martial class, as it will keep getting better without any more investment. This seems like a pretty huge oversight unless this signals a major shift in 5e character design. Outside of cantrips I can't think of anything else that levels based on character level rather than class level. I suppose spell slots kinda do but that's multiple class applicable.

[jaappleton]

Why is this thing increasing in power based on proficiency bonus? This instantly makes it the best level-dip for pretty much every martial class, as it will keep getting better without any more investment. This seems like a pretty huge oversight unless this signals a major shift in 5e character design. Outside of cantrips I can't think of anything else that levels based on character level rather than class level. I suppose spell slots kinda do but that's multiple class applicable.

Are you referring to Adamantine Bones's scaling?

That's an easy fix.

Instead change the algorithm. Scaling off proficiency is incredibly easy, that's the reason for it. Swapping it to Fighter Level -2 (minimum of 1) or however the math works out is absolutely possible.

[Rukelnikov]

Are you referring to Adamantine Bones's scaling?

That's an easy fix.

Instead change the algorithm. Scaling off proficiency is incredibly easy, that's the reason for it. Swapping it to Fighter Level -2 (minimum of 1) or however the math works out is absolutely possible.

math.Ceil(classLevel/4) + 1

[jaappleton]

math.Ceil(classLevel/4) + 1

....I've never been more confused in my life.

But I failed math multiple times, so...

[RulesJD]

Are you referring to Adamantine Bones's scaling?

That's an easy fix.

Instead change the algorithm. Scaling off proficiency is incredibly easy, that's the reason for it. Swapping it to Fighter Level -2 (minimum of 1) or however the math works out is absolutely possible.

Masterful Strike also scales with Proficiency Bonus as well. Sure it's easy, but nothing else in the game does that. Not Rages, not Bardic Inspiration, not Channel Divinities, etc.

[Daghoulish]

Masterful Strike also scales with Proficiency Bonus as well. Sure it's easy, but nothing else in the game does that. Not Rages, not Bardic Inspiration, not Channel Divinities, etc.

The damage from Hexblades curse increases with proficiency bonus. Warforged AC as well but that's not official content.

[Trickery]

....I've never been more confused in my life.

But I failed math multiple times, so...

It just means divide level by 4, round up, and add one. So level 5/4+1 becomes 3 (5/4 = 1.25, rounded up to 2, + 1 = 3). That's the proficiency bonus formula. Or you could just say it starts off at 2 and goes up every four levels starting at 5.

[RulesJD]

The damage from Hexblades curse increases with proficiency bonus. Warforged AC as well but that's not official content.

Fair point about Hexblade, I hate that subclass for what it encourages so I kinda forced it from my mind. I suppose it's the exception that proves the rule, don't level stuff based on character level.

[Rukelnikov]

....I've never been more confused in my life.

But I failed math multiple times, so...

lol sry jaapple, wasn't my intention :smalltongue:


It just means divide level by 4, round up, and add one. So level 5/4+1 becomes 3 (5/4 = 1.25, rounded up to 2, + 1 = 3). That's the proficiency bonus formula.

This is what it means

[jaappleton]

lol sry jaapple, wasn't my intention :smalltongue:



This is what it means

No harm done :smallbiggrin: