Army Building Competition?

[liquidformat]

Hi All,

I was wondering if there was any interest in a build competition focused around building armies? Unlike other competitions on this site the idea would be focused around low level characters rather than high level optimized builds.
500 level 1 soldiers with 50 level 2 corporals, 10 level 3 Sergeants, 2 level 4 Lieutenants, and 1 level 6 captain
1 main race, multiple subraces allowed

[StevenC21]

Okay.

I make a 22 point buy character with 10/10/10/10/10/18 and I take Leadership, Undead Leadership, Dragon Leadership...

[Vizzerdrix]

Mephling Gestalt warrior/arcane caster with all of the feats bent towards extra familiar and improved familiar. For mephits.

[liquidformat]

I meant building out an army of say 500 level 1 soldiers with 50 level 2 corporals, 10 level 3 Sergeants, 2 level 4 Lieutenants, and 1 level 6 captain and seeing what interesting builds could be made to make a cohesive army, than one character abusing some minion build...

[Particle_Man]

Make them all warlocks with eldritch spear. Long range touch attacks for the win!

Alternatively, make them all either crusaders or warblades with white raven maneuvers to all help each other out.

[liquidformat]

Make them all warlocks with eldritch spear. Long range touch attacks for the win!

Alternatively, make them all either crusaders or warblades with white dragon maneuvers to all help each other out.

So gold standard for ranged army would be human fighters with point blank shot, far shot and then one of the three following: composite longbow with weapon focus; composite great bow with weapon prof, or heavy crossbow with rapid shot. Add onto that make a mix of corporals being level 2 Marshals and bard 2 and you can cover all your archers with all auras and inspire courage. Making your Sergeants silverbrow humans bard 2/sorc1 with draconic heritage and dragonfire inspiration and you add 1d6 acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage to each attack. This groupd could kill your warlocks before they get lose enough to use eldritch spear...

Also what is white dragon maneuvers?

[RNightstalker]

So gold standard for ranged army would be human fighters with point blank shot, far shot and then one of the three following: composite longbow with weapon focus; composite great bow with weapon prof, or heavy crossbow with rapid shot. Add onto that make a mix of corporals being level 2 Marshals and bard 2 and you can cover all your archers with all auras and inspire courage. Making your Sergeants silverbrow humans bard 2/sorc1 with draconic heritage and dragonfire inspiration and you add 1d6 acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage to each attack. This groupd could kill your warlocks before they get lose enough to use eldritch spear...

Also what is white dragon maneuvers?

I imagine White Raven was intended.

[unseenmage]

Make an advanced Mirror Mephit with at will Simukacrum.

[liquidformat]

I imagine White Raven was intended.

so pf content?

[Venger]

so pf content?

tome of battle is 3.5.


you're welcome to start such a contest. step one is nailing down some rules. people who do iron chef, zinc saucier, junkyard, vc, appetizer, and the rest are always on the lookout for more contests so they can participate in one while the others are dormant.

[Particle_Man]

Yeah white raven. My phone preferred dragon for some reason. :smallconfused:

[Elricaltovilla]

I've talked in other threads about a somewhat niche (3rd party Pathfinder), but very cool army setup that could be used to turn the relatively low level squads into seriously powerful encounters. I might take the time to write out the setup this week if anyone is interested.

[RNightstalker]

I'll be spending most of the weekend with my gaming group so I'll have time to take a shot at it, already thinking of a few things. I'm interested. As far as building it, would we be looking to do something generic for lack of a better term that has all the bases covered, or do we know what we're up against, field of battle, etc.

[Kol Korran]

I have served in the Israeli army for 3 years od mandatory service+ 1 year due to becoming an officer, and have done some reserve service. (Many Israelis do). I've mostly served in combat units, either infantry or soecial forces, and some command posts.

I state the above, in order to give (some) weight to the following comments:
1. Any army is trained, structured and equpied for specific tasks, which must take into account the goals for which the army was created, the threats, and the constraints of battle. This means many factors, such as who is the enemyz what are the enemy goals, strategies and tactics, what is the terrain, the weather, the technology, moral, cohesion, and more...

So there is no "best army", unless you establish all of the above. An army of human archers would do poorly in underfround caves, or against an undead army of skeletons, or in a rainy/ bad weather, or if it's main goal is to capture a heavily fortified castle... and so on.

2. 500 people do not make an army. They may make a battalion. (At least by common european army structure). Learn army structure.

3. The distribution of rank has little to do with how tough (=level?) the soldiers is, but rather by other skills, mostly those of command and organization. A captain for example is rarely the best soldier. He has different skills and capabilites that he brings.

4. Also, nearly every "brick" of army composition has at least two type of command figures. For example, a platoon woulf often have both a lietenant and a sargent leading it, with different roles.

5. Another point- with 500 soldiers in a fighting force, there will allready be specializations- such as artillery, frontal combat, support, and more.

6. In RPGs, I suggest to look at Heroes of Battle (For 3.5) or PF strategy and army building rules. (I also homebrewed tactical rules for armies, though not without their problems... If you're interested, check under my long signature). Also, perhaps rules from actual war games (There are many) might help refine the challenge?)

Good luck with your endeavor!

[liquidformat]

I have served in the Israeli army for 3 years od mandatory service+ 1 year due to becoming an officer, and have done some reserve service. (Many Israelis do). I've mostly served in combat units, either infantry or soecial forces, and some command posts.

I state the above, in order to give (some) weight to the following comments:
1. Any army is trained, structured and equpied for specific tasks, which must take into account the goals for which the army was created, the threats, and the constraints of battle. This means many factors, such as who is the enemyz what are the enemy goals, strategies and tactics, what is the terrain, the weather, the technology, moral, cohesion, and more...

So there is no "best army", unless you establish all of the above. An army of human archers would do poorly in underfround caves, or against an undead army of skeletons, or in a rainy/ bad weather, or if it's main goal is to capture a heavily fortified castle... and so on.

2. 500 people do not make an army. They may make a battalion. (At least by common european army structure). Learn army structure.

3. The distribution of rank has little to do with how tough (=level?) the soldiers is, but rather by other skills, mostly those of command and organization. A captain for example is rarely the best soldier. He has different skills and capabilites that he brings.

4. Also, nearly every "brick" of army composition has at least two type of command figures. For example, a platoon woulf often have both a lietenant and a sargent leading it, with different roles.

5. Another point- with 500 soldiers in a fighting force, there will allready be specializations- such as artillery, frontal combat, support, and more.

6. In RPGs, I suggest to look at Heroes of Battle (For 3.5) or PF strategy and army building rules. (I also homebrewed tactical rules for armies, though not without their problems... If you're interested, check under my long signature). Also, perhaps rules from actual war games (There are many) might help refine the challenge?)

Good luck with your endeavor!

Yep I am aware that 500 people is something like a battalion, rather than the full army (though that also depends on civilization size we are talking about) This was more of a post to see if there was interest in a competition of this sort not to be said competition thread anyways. And I have been milling through ideas to figure out how to setup the competition and have been reading through HoB as well as other places for ideas( the break down I gave above is from the ranges provided in HoB).

[Malphegor]

Legion of Sentinels, a level 3 Beguiler/Sorcerer/Wizard spell gives you an additional 9 ghostly swordfighters in a 10ft spread around a point in space, if that helps adding to the numbers. (they can only do attacks of opportunity, BAB is your caster level).

But yeah leadership is how you do a normal army.
Or necromancy.

Actually, there's a thought. There's a couple of ways to get free animate dead a few times per day outside of your HD limit I believe. At a certain point it's just a matter of finding bodies and finding time to create an unstoppable wave of zombies and skeletons, with no tactics, only swarming enemies and abusing the action economy where possible.

[Blackhawk748]

2. 500 people do not make an army. They may make a battalion. (At least by common european army structure). Learn army structure.

That rather depends on the era we are talking about, as during various times 500 armed people could totally make an army.

In any event, I'm in, that sounds neat

[liquidformat]

That rather depends on the era we are talking about, as during various times 500 armed people could totally make an army.

In any event, I'm in, that sounds neat

Ya currently trying to write up some rules and whatnot will try to have a competition thread up this weekend and we can see how it goes.

[RNightstalker]

That rather depends on the era we are talking about, as during various times 500 armed people could totally make an army.

In any event, I'm in, that sounds neat

You're right, that reminds me of Rambo III and the Valley of Five Lions. I also hear some guys from Sparta did pretty good with 300 or so.

[HouseRules]

You're right, that reminds me of Rambo III and the Valley of Five Lions. I also hear some guys from Sparta did pretty good with 300 or so.

By ignoring their 1000's of allies, the 300 Spartans gained fame?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

By ignoring their 1000's of allies, the 300 Spartans gained fame?

In fairness, that's not quite how things went down. Their Spartans' Athenian allies were actively engaged in naval combat against the Persian fleet, and since the place the Spartans chose to fight was narrow enough for their (rightly regarded as) superior infantry to cover by themselves, their infantry allies were assigned to guard a theoretically secret mountain passage the Persians could use to flank the Spartans. However... the passage location was leaked, the infantry allies decided guarding it wasn't in their best interests, and the Persian army was able to successfully flank and destroy the Spartans, albeit as a very Pyrrhic victory.

[RNightstalker]

By ignoring their 1000's of allies, the 300 Spartans gained fame?

Their allies weren't outnumbered by more than 3000:1 who decided to stand their ground anyways.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Their allies weren't outnumbered by more than 3000:1 who decided to stand their ground anyways.
There were around 7000 in the Greek force at Thermopylae. The “300” rearguard action had 300 Spartans, 700 Thespians, 900 helots and 400 Thebans. But “300” is a better story than “2,300” I suppose.

[HouseRules]

They were in a religious ceremony that lasted 3 days.
Under their laws, while worshiping the gods during these ceremonies, the Army cannot defend the city, but must defend only their religious important places.
They cannot deploy their entire Army to defend for 3 days.

A retreat is called on the third day, but they were to blood-thirsty for revenge for their fallen comrades that non of that force decide to retreat.

[RNightstalker]

They were in a religious ceremony that lasted 3 days.
Under their laws, while worshiping the gods during these ceremonies, the Army cannot defend the city, but must defend only their religious important places.
They cannot deploy their entire Army to defend for 3 days.

A retreat is called on the third day, but they were to blood-thirsty for revenge for their fallen comrades that non of that force decide to retreat.

We know the story of the 300 Spartans because the 300 Spartans didn't retreat. Spartans were the best fighting unit in the world for over 100 years because they didn't retreat, didn't surrender.

[Particle_Man]

So does this talk of Spartans mean that people are leaning towards a “defend or attack through a narrow aperture both before and after a pincer maneuver” kind of battlefield? Be a nice change from the “endless plain with no cover or concealment except what you create” scenario. How close are the armies in the scenario? And how much money do the troops get? Pc wealth? Npc wealth? Other? Can the troops share their money or must each soldier only use their own money individually? Are magic items allowed? And how are the “battles” to be resolved? Do we eyeball it or is someone going to crunch a lot of numbers, likely with a computer program? Do we each fight against the same (presumably known?) opponent or each other’s armies?

[Lord of Shadows]

500 level 1 Soldiers
50 level 2 Corporals
10 level 3 Sergeants
2 level 4 Lieutenants
1 level 6 captain
1 main race, multiple subraces allowed

Might be interesting to try to create a strike force of some kind, able to adapt and respond to different kinds of threats or missions. This would likely mean casters of some sort to help with the "adapt" part.

Also consider how such a force moves, are they riding (not necessarily on horses), or in battle wagons (armored and armed transports), or what. Such a force would also need supplies and logistical support (food, water, intel on the enemy) but that needn't be part of the core force of 500.

[HouseRules]

Are we talking about mid 17th century and earlier, where a regiment is a battalion?
Colonel = Triarius/Pilanus Centurio Prior
Lieutenant Colonel = Princeps Centurio Centurio Prior
Major = Hastatus Centurio Prior
1st Captain = Triarius/Pilanus Centurio Posterior
2nd Captain = Princeps Centurio Posterior
3rd Captain = Hastatus Centurio Posterior

Are we talking about late 17th century and later, where a regiment is multiple battalions?

French Style: Left to Right
Major = Battalion Commander
Major's 1st Lieutenant = 1st Half Battalion
Major's 2nd Lieutenant = 2nd Half Battalion
1st Captain = 1st Company for French
2nd Captain = 2nd Company for French
3rd Captain = 3rd Company fro French
4th Captain = 4th Company for French
5th Captain = 5th Company for French
6th Captain = 6th Company for French

British Style: Alternate Right and Left from "Outside" to "Inside"
Lieutenant Colonel = Battalion Commander
1st Major = 2nd Half Battalion (Right)
2nd Major = 1st Half Battalion (Left)
1st Captain = 8th Division (company) (right most), 4th Grand Division (double company)
2nd Captain = 1st Company (left most), 1st Grand Division (double company)
3rd Captain = 6th Company, 3rd Grand Division (double company)
4th Captain = 3rd Company, 2nd Grand Division (double company)
5th Captain = 7th Company
6th Captain = 2nd Company
7th Captain = 5th Company
8th Captain = 4th Company

At such times, they are called Administrative Company, Marching Division, Firing Platoon.
Company = Division = Platoon, but the distinction came, and Division is later used for a larger unit size
--the Division of the Corps, instead of the Division of the Battalion.

[Particle_Man]

We are talking about this:



500 level 1 soldiers with 50 level 2 corporals, 10 level 3 Sergeants, 2 level 4 Lieutenants, and 1 level 6 captain
1 main race, multiple subraces allowed

I think arguing about nomenclature is beside the point. Since the OP called this an army then for the purpose of this thread it is an army. We can assume that in the setting of the OP everyone in that setting that has an opinion on the matter would call this an army.

[HouseRules]

Isn't OP trying to refine the rules of the competition as post #15 says?

Anyways, if we were to assume this:
Captain General
Lieutenant General
Sergeant General also known as Major General
Corporal General also known as Brigadier General
Soldiers represents Companies, not individual soldiers
then, there is no problem saying that 500 soldiers really means 500 companies or to the extent around 50,000 in actual number.

The other common ratio is the Squad.
Captain Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Sergeant Colonel also known as Major
Corporal Colonel also known as Senior Captain, not always a separate rank, but distinct by seniority
Solders represent Squads, not individual soldiers.
then, there is no problem saying that 500 soldiers really means 500 squads or to the extent around 5,000 in actual number.

[XionUnborn01]

I don't get the pedantic arguing over the size and distinction of the army. I don't care what your background is or what real world military structure. The OP posted a scenario so it's just stupid to argue with his wording.

[HouseRules]

I'm being pedantic about are Errata RAW or NOT and you guys say Errata are not RAW.
Thank You. My Analogy is exact and perfect.

[RNightstalker]

I'm being pedantic about are Errata RAW or NOT and you guys say Errata are not RAW.
Thank You. My Analogy is exact and perfect.

You're welcome?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

So does this talk of Spartans mean that people are leaning towards a “defend or attack through a narrow aperture both before and after a pincer maneuver” kind of battlefield? Be a nice change from the “endless plain with no cover or concealment except what you create” scenario. How close are the armies in the scenario? And how much money do the troops get? Pc wealth? Npc wealth? Other? Can the troops share their money or must each soldier only use their own money individually? Are magic items allowed? And how are the “battles” to be resolved? Do we eyeball it or is someone going to crunch a lot of numbers, likely with a computer program? Do we each fight against the same (presumably known?) opponent or each other’s armies?

I do like the idea of having each competition be the best army for a certain scenario (probably a necessary thing anyways, but that doesn't mean I can't like it). I'd be cool with having the first challenge be "Last Stand: Best 300 troops for Thermopylae" or similar.

[JustIgnoreMe]

We know the story of the 300 Spartans because the 300 Spartans didn't retreat. Spartans were the best fighting unit in the world for over 100 years because they didn't retreat, didn't surrender.
The Sacred Band of Thebes says hi, and wonders if the Spartans want to try again.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I would go strongheart halflings with wild cohort (for war trained riding dogs). Mounted hit and run tactics. Mortal bane eldritch blasts maybe. Get a soulspark familiar via feats to get more combatants on the field.

Or just mounted fighters with slings and feats geared towards grabbing mark of xoriat.

[Particle_Man]

Are cohorts and combat familiars allowed? Would Druid animal companions be allowed?

[The Glyphstone]

I feel like force-multiplier feats and abilities are outside the spirit of the OP's idea. The idea isn't to see how big an army you can make (I think) - that's just every Leadership/Cohort feat you can squeeze in, but what you can make out of the listed number of low-level troops and how many force multipliers you can stack on them.

[liquidformat]

For the first competition I think 500 soldiers plus the above mentioned command units should be fine, we can expand from there in future competitions if there is support. I am working on rules and want to open a competition thread today.

Besides describing the battlefield I am debating how much and what kind of detail we want to go into for the force we are squaring off against. Should it be fully fleshed out or left ambiguous, or something in between?

[Blackhawk748]

For the first competition I think 500 soldiers plus the above mentioned command units should be fine, we can expand from there in future competitions if there is support. I am working on rules and want to open a competition thread today.

Besides describing the battlefield I am debating how much and what kind of detail we want to go into for the force we are squaring off against. Should it be fully fleshed out or left ambiguous, or something in between?

Give us a general idea but we shouldn't have perfect numbers, simply because thats how war often works

[HouseRules]

Company Sizes are also variable.
Some as small as 25 and some ten times larger.

War is never about equal.
Look at the New Model Army (1645) of 22,000 soldiers, before counting the General and General Staff.
It is not fully spec out because the musket vs pike vs artillery is not defined at all, but changed throughout the war.

[liquidformat]

Military Games, Act 1 the Stand of 300! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593925-Military-Games-Act-1-the-Stand-of-300!&p=24057400#post24057400)

Ok competition thread is up, begin posting comments and questions as you have them