Stacking the same Metamagic?

[StevenC21]

Can I, for example, cast an 'Empowered Empowered Enervation'? (In an 8th level slot of course)

[Rebel7284]

Nope. As I recall there is explicit text forbidding it, but even if there wasn't, same effect wouldn't stack.

[Venger]

You used to be able to in 3.0, but you cannot in 3.5

[MisterKaws]

Bonuses from the same source do not stack otherwise explicitly stated otherwise. It's a rule somewhere in the PHB, don't remember where.

[Venger]

here you go (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking)

[Darrin]

PHB p. 88:

"You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats)

Note that the same restriction does not apply to Metapsionic feats.

[pabelfly]

Note that the same restriction does not apply to Metapsionic feats.

That's broken and beautiful.

[MisterKaws]

That's broken and beautiful.

You can only have around 3 focuses at once, though. Maybe 4 with items.

[pabelfly]

You can only have around 3 focuses at once, though. Maybe 4 with items.

Level 10 Ardent comes with an ACF called "Dominant Ideal" where you don't need to expend focus to add metapsionic feats to powers of one of your mantles. Also reduces their cost for that one mantle by 2.

[MisterKaws]

Level 10 Ardent comes with an ACF called "Dominant Ideal" where you don't need to expend focus to add metapsionic feats to powers of one of your mantles. Also reduces their cost for that one mantle by 2.

Well, there's that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Bonuses from the same source do not stack otherwise explicitly stated otherwise. It's a rule somewhere in the PHB, don't remember where.Metamagic does not apply bonuses unless explicitly stated to be so. Maximizing or Empowering a spell does not apply bonuses, so that rule on stacking bonuses (or penalties) doesn't apply.

Metamagic is explicitly noted to not allow applying a single feat more than once, so this is a moot point anyway.

Metapsionics, however, does not have this limitation, and the same metapsionic feat can be successfully applied multiple times. The limitations here are psionic focus and the manifester level cap, the first of which requires a feat, levels in a psionic PrC (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) [with tons of useless prereq feats that have nothing to do with the PrC or any of its abilities] to get a second one. Or take 10 levels of ardent to completely break the paradigm (and possibly the game). (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)

[edit] Gah! I've been ninja'd!

...several hours ago.

I should probably have read the whole thread before posting.

[HouseRules]

Intensify Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm) is Empowered (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/feats.htm) x2 follow by Maximize (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/feats.htm)

Under normal circumstances, Maximize does not affect the empowered portion, but then the meta-magic is pre-combined, then it is possible. Also, self stack has to be pre-combined because meta-magic reducers are just overpowered otherwise.

You could follow 3.5's Intensify Spell, not Pathfinder's Intensified Spell (which is half an enhanced spell with 1/4 the price), and create pre-combined meta-magic. These are balanced with meta-magic reducers.

Intensify Spell is in the SRD: Epic Level Handbook Dummy.

[Venger]

Intensify Spell (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Intensify_Spell) is Empowered (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Empower_Spell) x2 follow by Maximize (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Maximize_Spell)

Under normal circumstances, Maximize does not affect the empowered portion, but then the meta-magic is pre-combined, then it is possible. Also, self stack has to be pre-combined because meta-magic reducers are just overpowered otherwise.

You are mistaken. Maybe that's what it says on dandwiki, but that site is all homebrew garbage. If you do an empowered, maximized spell, it does 150% of max damage. A maximized, empowered fireball at cl 10 for example, deals 90 damage.

[HouseRules]

Use Intensify Spell from the Epic Level Handbook.

[JNAProductions]

You are mistaken. Maybe that's what it says on dandwiki, but that site is all homebrew garbage. If you do an empowered, maximized spell, it does 150% of max damage. A maximized, empowered fireball at cl 10 for example, deals 90 damage.

Pretty sure that Maximized Empowered does max damage plus an extra 50% dice.

So a 10d6 Fireball does 60+5d6 damage.

[HouseRules]

Pretty sure that Maximized Empowered does max damage plus an extra 50% dice.

So a 10d6 Fireball does 60+5d6 damage.

Pretty sure the Intensify Spell from Epic Level Handbook does +100% and maximized both the bonus and the original.

[JNAProductions]

Pretty sure the Intensify Spell from Epic Level Handbook does +100% and maximized both the bonus and the original.

I don't know the ELH, but I'm talking about using Empower Spell and Maximize Spell, NOT Intensify Spell.

[HouseRules]

I don't know the ELH, but I'm talking about using Empower Spell and Maximize Spell, NOT Intensify Spell.

You are absolutely correct that Maximize Spell does not Maximized the Empower Spell.

[Venger]

Pretty sure that Maximized Empowered does max damage plus an extra 50% dice.

So a 10d6 Fireball does 60+5d6 damage.

I double checked. It actually works a third way: a maximized, empowered spell, deals max damage plus [the normally rolled amount of damage/2] so with fireball, it's 60 + (10d6/2) the average is the same, but the minimum is guaranteed to be higher, so you're going to deal slightly more damage.

[JNAProductions]

I double checked. It actually works a third way: a maximized, empowered spell, deals max damage plus [the normally rolled amount of damage/2] so with fireball, it's 60 + (10d6/2) the average is the same, but the minimum is guaranteed to be higher, so you're going to deal slightly more damage.

Um... 10d6/2's minimum is 5.
5d6's minimum is 5.

You're more likely to get at or closer to average with 10d6/2 than you are 5d6, but the minimum is the same.

[Venger]

Um... 10d6/2's minimum is 5.
5d6's minimum is 5.

You're more likely to get at or closer to average with 10d6/2 than you are 5d6, but the minimum is the same.

durr. Yeah, you'll get slightly different numbers and truer average, plus that's what it says in the raw.

[HouseRules]

I double checked. It actually works a third way: a maximized, empowered spell, deals max damage plus [the normally rolled amount of damage/2] so with fireball, it's 60 + (10d6/2) the average is the same, but the minimum is guaranteed to be higher, so you're going to deal slightly more damage.

10d6/2 vs 5d6
Minimum of 10d6/2 = 10/2 = 5 = Minimum of 5d6
Average of 10d6/2 = 17.5 = 17.5 = Average of 5d6
Maximum of 10d6/2 = 60/2 = 30 = Maximum of 5d6

It only has a smaller standard deviation, but the min, mean, and max are the same.

[HouseRules]

Can I, for example, cast an 'Empowered Empowered Enervation'? (In an 8th level slot of course)

Great Cheese by the way.

Level 4 Spell: Enervation 1d4 negative level
Level 9 Spell: Energy Drain: 2d4 negative level, the equivalent to "empowered empowered enervation".

Level 4 Spell: Restoration was the opposite spell of Enervation.
Level 7 Spell: Greater Restoration was the opposite spell of Energy Drain.

Actually, because of how powerful negative levels are, the spell itself gets nerfed by two spell level.

[lord_khaine]

Would it not bring a tiny, tiny increase in damage because you round it up?