Handling lycanthropy for characters (potential SKT spoilers)

[BarneyBent]

Hey all. So perhaps against my better judgement, I’m thinking of giving my players an opportunity to contract werebear lycanthropy.

For those unaware, werebears are typically NG and retain control over their faculties while transformed (specifically, “temper their monstrous natures and reject their violent impulses”), and basically never spread their curse unless the target consents.

I am planning on proceeding from Lost Mine of Phandelver to Storm King’s Thunder, and had the idea of previously highly independent werebears from the Westwood, Kryptgarden and Ardeep forests coming together to form a small community, against their highly independent nature, in the face of increased threats from Hill Giants nearby, as well as increased werewolf and wereboar activity in the area.

I haven’t figured out the finer details, but basically, the players would encounter a Hill Giant lycanthrope, would investigate, leading them to this village of unusually strong and hairy people, figure out what’s up, figure out that a member of this community has betrayed the others by infecting an outsider, which has ultimately led to Hill Giant werebears who are using the curse to become bigger and stronger and improve their place in the ordning (somewhat more interesting than the base plot IMO).

The problem is this - Hill Giants, being chaotic evil, will have no reason not to bite my players. There is therefore a fairly substantial chance that one or more will get infected that way. There is also a fairly good chance that one or more will WANT to get infected, because let’s face it, while the others you’d probably lose control of your character, werebears are actually a pretty damn good deal. Plus from a role play perspective there’s an opportunity to strike up an alliance with this town, and through building relationships it would potentially make good narrative sense.

So - if I was to allow my players to get infected and retain control of their characters, how would you manage this to a) not make those players OP relative to the rest of the party, and b) not make those players OP just in general?

Ideas so far my general approach is to allow curse to develop over time and adjust it with level. At first no strength boost or damage immunities, and can’t adopt full bear form, but can adopt hybrid form. Lose control at the full moon, so they’ll need to be careful. With each level up, STR goes up by 2 to a maximum of 19 (so if you’re already high STR you’ll max out pretty quick, but a Kobold Rogue will probably take 7 levels to fully benefit, which makes sense). For the first few levels, they’ll start getting resistance to damage from non-magical/silvered weapons, eventually (maybe Tier 3 minimum) they’ll get full immunity and the full bear form.

Any thoughts? Has anyone tried to allow lycanthropy without it becoming OP? What did you do?

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Story wise you have a good concept here so I would go with it. The alignment issue I would say just ignore. Your game, you do as you see fit.

On the mechanics side I have found the following guidelines when using lycanthropy to be helpful:

- Treat their shapeshifting as if it was a Druid's Wildshape regarding restrictions. That means magic casting and class abilities are a no go. Reason is combining both class abilities, magic and whatnot with what a lycantrhop has would be very game breaking. Imagine your werebear casting level 4+ spells.
- For stats, provide flat bonuses in two stats that are appropriate for the creature in question at +2 when only in animal or hybrid forms. This takes into account leveling up stats and provides enough of a bonus to make the going into animal or hybrid form worth while without becoming overpowered.
- Weapons and armor can only be worn when in hybrid form. Going full animal negates this.
- For language, hybrid form allows the use of standard languages but nothing other than "animal" speak is allowed for full animal form
- Any lycanthrope player counts as a monstrosity category for purposes of spells or effects.
- Spells or effects that would impact animals also impact the players in the same capacity.

[BarneyBent]

Story wise you have a good concept here so I would go with it. The alignment issue I would say just ignore. Your game, you do as you see fit.

On the mechanics side I have found the following guidelines when using lycanthropy to be helpful:

- Treat their shapeshifting as if it was a Druid's Wildshape regarding restrictions. That means magic casting and class abilities are a no go. Reason is combining both class abilities, magic and whatnot with what a lycantrhop has would be very game breaking. Imagine your werebear casting level 4+ spells.
- For stats, provide flat bonuses in two stats that are appropriate for the creature in question at +2 when only in animal or hybrid forms. This takes into account leveling up stats and provides enough of a bonus to make the going into animal or hybrid form worth while without becoming overpowered.
- Weapons and armor can only be worn when in hybrid form. Going full animal negates this.
- For language, hybrid form allows the use of standard languages but nothing other than "animal" speak is allowed for full animal form
- Any lycanthrope player counts as a monstrosity category for purposes of spells or effects.
- Spells or effects that would impact animals also impact the players in the same capacity.

Is there a benefit to casting spells as a hybrid that you don’t get from just staying in humanoid form though? The main benefits are Large size and multiattack with powerful unarmed strikes - everything else is either a pretty strong no-no (using the bite) or is available while in humanoid form. If you’re spellcasting, you’re probably not using multiattack, although I guess a Cleric with Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians would do pretty well.

Probably the biggest concern to me, balance wise, is immunity to non-magical or non-silvered weapons. 19 STR is hardly OP, that’s the equivalent of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength (which given Lost Mines, somebody is going to get anyway). But a lycanthrope can pretty much take down a giant without a sweat without even transforming, unless that giant happens to have magical or silvered weapon - and giants lugging around magical or silvered weapons as a matter of course is going to a) **** with the local magical item economy and b) make no narrative sense.

I guess I could rule you only get the immunity while transformed, which means they’d have to decide to reveal themselves if they wanted to benefit...

[GentlemanVoodoo]

The issue is not so much magic in general but specific spells and class abilities your players may try to combine with the werebear's abilities that can be devastating.

For instance, a player who is a paladin trying to use smite with their claws. The werebear's claws are considered melee weapons per the MM and you do have several arguments in favor of non-weapon attacks working with this ability and others like it as seen with the monk's unarmed strike. So with just one hit that is 2d8 + Str and smite damage. At low levels it may not be that big of a deal but you also have to consider the long term if your doing Stormking's Thunder.

Other examples can include a warlock using hex and likewise a ranger using hunter's query. Consider also a player trying to use a barbarian's rage while in either form. Or a player who is a sorcerer attempting to twin spell green flame blade with the werebear's bite.

Now granted these are specific cases but it does prove the point that you, as the DM, will have to take into consideration every specific instances of such combination in making your ruling. That is why is easier to say while in animal or hybrid you just get nothing you would have as in humanoid form from spells or class abilities.

Though if your style of game is more over the then this wouldn't be such an issue. But if your trying for some form of balance, then it does become a headache.

But again your game, so go what you think is right.

[BarneyBent]

The issue is not so much magic in general but specific spells and class abilities your players may try to combine with the werebear's abilities that can be devastating.

For instance, a player who is a paladin trying to use smite with their claws. The werebear's claws are considered melee weapons per the MM and you do have several arguments in favor of non-weapon attacks working with this ability and others like it as seen with the monk's unarmed strike. So with just one hit that is 2d8 + Str and smite damage. At low levels it may not be that big of a deal but you also have to consider the long term if your doing Stormking's Thunder.

Other examples can include a warlock using hex and likewise a ranger using hunter's query. Consider also a player trying to use a barbarian's rage while in either form. Or a player who is a sorcerer attempting to twin spell green flame blade with the werebear's bite.

Now granted these are specific cases but it does prove the point that you, as the DM, will have to take into consideration every specific instances of such combination in making your ruling. That is why is easier to say while in animal or hybrid you just get nothing you would have as in humanoid form from spells or class abilities.

Though if your style of game is more over the then this wouldn't be such an issue. But if your trying for some form of balance, then it does become a headache.

But again your game, so go what you think is right.

Eh, I mean in the Paladin’s case, you probably trade 1d8 for Dueling fighting style bonus if playing S&B. If you’re comparing to a Greatsword, you compare 2d8 against 2d6 + approximately 1 from GWF. That’s 2.5 damage difference per attack with S&B or 1 damage per attack with heavy weapons, and you lose use of abilities like GWM or PAM. So it’s really not that different from base attacks, with or without smites.

I would rule that the characters don’t get multiattack, but they can use bite or claws as natural weapons with the stated weapon die as attack options. Just so you don’t get to be a Cleric with multiattack and Spiritual Weapon, or Sorcadin with just 2 levels of Paladin still getting extra attack.

Neither does Hex or Hunter’s Mark worry me - they both benefit from the number of attacks you make, both classes have relatively easy access to extra attacks, and there’s actually diminishing returns the more powerful the base attack is, so if anything they’re a worse use of a spell on a werebear.

Again, spellcasting in hybrid form really doesn’t worry me nearly as much as the damage immunities. I could have the giants grapple and bag the characters and try to drown them/freeze them/burn them to death, I guess...

[Lunali]

You say that the giants have no reason not to bite the characters, but the fact that their bite can inflict lycanthropy is a very good reason not to bite people. While a DM can change this, by default there is no delay between the failed save and the effects of the curse. This means that someone that fails their save is immediately immune to all the normal attacks of lycanthropes.

Since you are changing the general requirement for alignment shifts from lycanthropy, (since the giants are not NG) there's no reason to think the giants would see the characters as future allies if bitten, giving them no reason to make their enemies stronger by using their bite instead of other attacks.

[BarneyBent]

You say that the giants have no reason not to bite the characters, but the fact that their bite can inflict lycanthropy is a very good reason not to bite people. While a DM can change this, by default there is no delay between the failed save and the effects of the curse. This means that someone that fails their save is immediately immune to all the normal attacks of lycanthropes.

Since you are changing the general requirement for alignment shifts from lycanthropy, (since the giants are not NG) there's no reason to think the giants would see the characters as future allies if bitten, giving them no reason to make their enemies stronger by using their bite instead of other attacks.

Although I see your logic, I’d argue Hill Giants are far too stupid to think in those terms. In the Monster Manual, they are described as so stupid, they’ll try to imitate elves by living in trees, only to crush the branches and fall because of their immense size. The average Hill Giant probably only barely grasps the concept that lycanthropy is infectious and the bite is what spreads it.

I’m also not really changing the alignment requirement - the MM specifies that the werebears are typically good but can be just as evil as other lycanthropes. To me that reads that the alignment shift is not as hard and fast as the other lycanthropes, so werebears are more likely to retain their original alignment, or perhaps only slightly shift towards the good. But, that’s really a case of semantics, the logic regarding whether it’s strategic for a Hill Giant to turn others is the same either way.

[DarkKnightJin]

Story wise you have a good concept here so I would go with it. The alignment issue I would say just ignore. Your game, you do as you see fit.

On the mechanics side I have found the following guidelines when using lycanthropy to be helpful:

- Treat their shapeshifting as if it was a Druid's Wildshape regarding restrictions. That means magic casting and class abilities are a no go. Reason is combining both class abilities, magic and whatnot with what a lycantrhop has would be very game breaking. Imagine your werebear casting level 4+ spells.
- For stats, provide flat bonuses in two stats that are appropriate for the creature in question at +2 when only in animal or hybrid forms. This takes into account leveling up stats and provides enough of a bonus to make the going into animal or hybrid form worth while without becoming overpowered.
- Weapons and armor can only be worn when in hybrid form. Going full animal negates this.
- For language, hybrid form allows the use of standard languages but nothing other than "animal" speak is allowed for full animal form
- Any lycanthrope player counts as a monstrosity category for purposes of spells or effects.
- Spells or effects that would impact animals also impact the players in the same capacity.

I plan on treating the it as a combo of Wildshape and Rage.
Limited shifts per day, Resistance to non-magical, non-silvered weapon damage (only in Hybrid form), and no control over it during the 3 days around the full moon.
And there will be Hunters that want to take them out for the simple reason that they're monsters now.
Doesn't matter if the party is the paragon of selflessness and pretty much the anti-murderhobo.
They're abominations and must therefore die.
And these people will have Silvered and/or magical weapons, of course.

I feel this would still let the players be excited about being a Lycanthrope, without having it break the game. And there's also a decent incentive for them to not want to have it, depending on the character's personality.

[Lunali]

Although I see your logic, I’d argue Hill Giants are far too stupid to think in those terms. In the Monster Manual, they are described as so stupid, they’ll try to imitate elves by living in trees, only to crush the branches and fall because of their immense size. The average Hill Giant probably only barely grasps the concept that lycanthropy is infectious and the bite is what spreads it.

While it might also be argued that the giants are too stupid to realize this, using their bite will result in significantly less damage than two attacks with their club.

[Glorthindel]

I am firmly of the viewpoint that Lycanthropy is absolutely always and completely a curse, and not some cool buff for characters to seek out.

That being the case, I would play with the particular strain. Since in your story the curse has been transferred over into the Giant species (and by a Werebear who knowingly and deliberately did not uphold the usual strictures of its kind), I would rule that this particular strain of Werebear Lycanthropy has mutated, and no longer acts like the traditional version of the disease, and if it is contracted from one of the Giants, it is this mutated strain that the PC is infected with.

At this point, you could do anything with it to make it more of a Curse - on the simple side, you could make infected characters suffer the psychological effects of one of the evil werebeast versions of the disease (but with a Bear form when they transform), or if you want to be more convoluted, you could have the mutation manifest itself on their non-were form (so their personality remains when in 'good' bear form, but they lose control in their human form which now exhibits giant-like traits and behavoir). You could really have fun with this.