[3.5e] Do the economic items (trade goods) listed in the Core books work logically?

[IraWolf]

Sorry for the title being sort of confusing, but I couldn't think of a better way to phrase the question than that.

My basic question is whether or not the prices of various different trade good (a pound of wheat, a chicken, spices, etc.) actually really make sense in economic terms as given in the core rulebooks for 3.5e. For instance, a chicken (presumably a live one) is listed as only being worth 2cp. For comparison's sake, this is only as much as it costs to buy a pound of flour. Now, I'm not exactly up to date on my pricing for medieval times, but if we compare those prices today, a pound of flour would be around $3 or so, max, which DOES seem to fit the cost of a sexed chick (3-5 dollars). If it's a high-end pound of flour, and a low-end chicken, it seems to about fit. But I'm not sure if that would be any different in medieval times. Does anyone have any input on this? Thanks.

[Venger]

No, they don't, but tinkering with the exact price of how much lantern oil or fishhooks cost when they're all less than 1gp doesn't make the game more fun, so most people don't bother.

[Duke of Urrel]

Sorry for the title being sort of confusing, but I couldn't think of a better way to phrase the question than that.

My basic question is whether or not the prices of various different trade good (a pound of wheat, a chicken, spices, etc.) actually really make sense in economic terms as given in the core rulebooks for 3.5e. For instance, a chicken (presumably a live one) is listed as only being worth 2cp. For comparison's sake, this is only as much as it costs to buy a pound of flour. Now, I'm not exactly up to date on my pricing for medieval times, but if we compare those prices today, a pound of flour would be around $3 or so, max, which DOES seem to fit the cost of a sexed chick (3-5 dollars). If it's a high-end pound of flour, and a low-end chicken, it seems to about fit. But I'm not sure if that would be any different in medieval times. Does anyone have any input on this? Thanks.

I don't have any knowledge of medieval economics, but I think I know why the rulebook writers included this information about so-called trade goods. The writers wanted to offer players a glimpse of the non-adventuring world of non-player characters, most of whom are dirt poor and can only dream of the wealth that adventurers acquire. I think these prices reflect the problems of bartering as well as the amount of labor that goes into producing bartered goods. For example, a chicken surely is worth more than a pound of grain, because chickens eat grain, but a pound of flour is processed grain, so it represents more labor and costs more. On the other hand, a live chicken also requires some extra labor before it becomes meat that you can eat. So the low price of a chicken reflects the low cost of feeding a chicken and the inconvenience of taking one home, slaughtering it, plucking it, and rendering it into a meal or two. Alternatively, a chicken might be a hen that produces eggs, but in this case you have to feed the chicken, so this also reduces its value as something that you barter.

I have observed that the wages for hirelings given in the Player's Handbook are very low compared to the wages that players can earn with Craft or Profession skill. I think hirelings can manage to live on the wages given in the rulebooks only if they can get free room and board nearby, including lots of trade goods that they or their next of kin obtain regularly by some bartering arrangement with their neighbors. I think this is probably how most of the peasantry, that is, most people of the commoner class, manage to survive. Most of what they possess is a piece of land, a roof over their heads, the clothing that they wear, and some trade goods that they barter with. They have and use very few coins.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by IraWolf
But I'm not sure if that would be any different in medieval times.

The prices of basic goods would have varied tremendously between regions and between years, to say nothing of nations and centuries. “Medieval times” is so broad a notion, and the application so loose in the game rules, that it’s impossible to nail down “the” standard when climate, war, birthrate and countless other factors were in constant flux.

This is not to say that specific prices can’t be tracked in broad strokes; I’ll never forget how C. J. Cherryh kept track of the price of coffee when working out the history of her Alliance/Union novels. For a quasi-medieval setting, probably the best you can do is find a good source for a specific region and time, and then use that in your campaign for a parallel region.

Most players and DMs won’t want that much detail, although if you enjoy looking through historical sources it can be its own kind of fun. For instance, Six Galleons for the King of Spain, a book I just pulled off my shelf, has an appendix tracking the prices of ships’ provisions, which gives an idea of how much prices could vary between years. But this is far finer historical detail than most people will want to get involved with.

One thing I wouldn’t do is make too much of comparisons with modern food prices, which are the product of industrial agriculture and rapid long-distance transportation, further complicated by corporate competition, advertising and promotions, etc. etc. Those parallels won’t hold up in a medieval setting, so it’s best to work with period sources if you really want that level of detail.

[Venger]

The prices of basic goods would have varied tremendously between regions and between years, to say nothing of nations and centuries. “Medieval times” is so broad a notion, and the application so loose in the game rules, that it’s impossible to nail down “the” standard when climate, war, birthrate and countless other factors were in constant flux.

This is not to say that specific prices can’t be tracked in broad strokes; I’ll never forget how C. J. Cherryh kept track of the price of coffee when working out the history of her Alliance/Union novels. For a quasi-medieval setting, probably the best you can do is find a good source for a specific region and time, and then use that in your campaign for a parallel region.

Most players and DMs won’t want that much detail, although if you enjoy looking through historical sources it can be its own kind of fun. For instance, Six Galleons for the King of Spain, a book I just pulled off my shelf, has an appendix tracking the prices of ships’ provisions, which gives an idea of how much prices could vary between years. But this is far finer historical detail than most people will want to get involved with.

One thing I wouldn’t do is make too much of comparisons with modern food prices, which are the product of industrial agriculture and rapid long-distance transportation, further complicated by corporate competition, advertising and promotions, etc. etc. Those parallels won’t hold up in a medieval setting, so it’s best to work with period sources if you really want that level of detail.
Blessedly, supply and demand doesn't exist in dnd. a live chicken costs 2cp from acheron to zhentarim, and that's the end of it. money is just points in this game you use to buy equipment, it doesn't function as a simulation of economic theory because that's what not what it's for.

[Inchhighguy]

Historically, Chickens were common: They wandered around a medieval farmyard, eating spilled grain and gobbling up insects. One of the reasons they were kept was for their role in helping control insects. Since chickens found their own food, very little effort was required, other than to provide a henhouse where the chickens would be safe at night from marauding foxes and other predators.

Also edicts that enforced fasting and prohibited eating four-legged animals pushed chickens onto Medieval dinner plates.

So this is why chickens are only 2CP.

[White Blade]

I THINK market penetration was still underway in medieval times, so most peasants probably didn’t use money much at all. To the extent that they do use coinage, it is used to pay taxes. If something has a price in the Player’s Handbook, you can articulate it as two, four, or eight times the going tax rate for the goods with the local tax-collector/money changer depending on how malicious you expect such a fellow to be. So sales to adventurers are usually fixed by the taxable value of chickens or flour. Peasants will sell at profit for such deals, but most of their net worth is caught up in an intangible free floating favor system which the players cannot access without settling down themselves.

[IraWolf]

The prices of basic goods would have varied tremendously between regions and between years, to say nothing of nations and centuries. “Medieval times” is so broad a notion, and the application so loose in the game rules, that it’s impossible to nail down “the” standard when climate, war, birthrate and countless other factors were in constant flux.

This is not to say that specific prices can’t be tracked in broad strokes; I’ll never forget how C. J. Cherryh kept track of the price of coffee when working out the history of her Alliance/Union novels. For a quasi-medieval setting, probably the best you can do is find a good source for a specific region and time, and then use that in your campaign for a parallel region.

Most players and DMs won’t want that much detail, although if you enjoy looking through historical sources it can be its own kind of fun. For instance, Six Galleons for the King of Spain, a book I just pulled off my shelf, has an appendix tracking the prices of ships’ provisions, which gives an idea of how much prices could vary between years. But this is far finer historical detail than most people will want to get involved with.

One thing I wouldn’t do is make too much of comparisons with modern food prices, which are the product of industrial agriculture and rapid long-distance transportation, further complicated by corporate competition, advertising and promotions, etc. etc. Those parallels won’t hold up in a medieval setting, so it’s best to work with period sources if you really want that level of detail.

I don't keep track of the specific details, but stronghold building is a BIG part of progressing as an adventurer and being closely involved in the world. If the players go "hey to support our low-level guildhouse, can we have some hirelings raise goats or something" then it's nice to have an idea of how close to breaking even that would get them on hireling and upkeep costs.

also, what I sometimes do for low-level adventures is provide loot in trade goods. if they raid a goblin hideout, why wouldn't the treasure be boxes of tobacco, or salt, or bronze ingots, if that's what the goblins looted from trade caravans?

[Mr Adventurer]

No, they don't, but tinkering with the exact price of how much lantern oil or fishhooks cost when they're all less than 1gp doesn't make the game more fun, so most people don't bother.

Best answer.

[MisterKaws]

Looks at title

Looks at Wall of Salt

Yes, definitely.

[Gallowglass]

it really depends on what game you want to play.

I had a campaign once where I started the game as "you are caravan guards..."

Little did I know how the players would choose to latch onto that. The abandoned the expected plot of the game and started their own caravan company. That meant buying large amounts of goods wholesale, moving them from place to place and selling them at a profit or loss.

I used the trade goods as a guide, (Pathfinder) but for this campaign to work I had to develop a more robust economic model. So I applied a % +/- cost for regions based on environment and politics for different trade goods. So now they could purchase, say, 1 ton of fishhooks at a -10% markup from a coastal city and sell them to an inland lake region at a +30% markup.

This started out very simple and generic but grew as the game went on and more detail was necessary. But for the most part it was "This Barony needs metal goods and dry goods but has a surplus of textiles. This dutchy needs paper products and scholarly products, and has surpluses of fine art and musical instruments." I'm pretty sure I ripped that off from some video game.

I kept it at a price/weight with a set markup that they could improve or worsen through diplomancy, skill use and role-playing decisions.

Some of the players enjoyed the economic modelling. Some of them latched onto crafting and selling goods which, the new model allowed for a better than 2/1 ratio if they worked for it. Then I threw in the adventuring aspect of protecting the caravan, dealing with warehouse thieves, dealing with rival trade cartels, and a few adventures at the bequest of trade partners.

It was... fun... I think the players enjoyed it more than I did. But it was worthwhile at the least.

I will say though, in order for this to work, they ended up far below WBL in pure money. Now they collected magic items and used them as gear, but rarely sold them. But if they had full PC WBL in money, they would quickly render any economic model moot by 6th or 7th level when they could officially buy small kingdoms. Granted, this was made easier by them not actively seeking out monsters with treasure hordes to murderhobo. And it didn't detract from their enjoyment. Rather it made the random magic items they found more dear than they would otherwise have been.

[RNightstalker]

Sorry for the title being sort of confusing, but I couldn't think of a better way to phrase the question than that.

My basic question is whether or not the prices of various different trade good (a pound of wheat, a chicken, spices, etc.) actually really make sense in economic terms as given in the core rulebooks for 3.5e. For instance, a chicken (presumably a live one) is listed as only being worth 2cp. For comparison's sake, this is only as much as it costs to buy a pound of flour. Now, I'm not exactly up to date on my pricing for medieval times, but if we compare those prices today, a pound of flour would be around $3 or so, max, which DOES seem to fit the cost of a sexed chick (3-5 dollars). If it's a high-end pound of flour, and a low-end chicken, it seems to about fit. But I'm not sure if that would be any different in medieval times. Does anyone have any input on this? Thanks.

I think they're like the pirate code; they're more guidelines than rules. Of course a DM can modify prices-"a famine in the land has caused prices of x to skyrocket" and "yes, the weaponsmith will buy another ten daggers from you because there's a Ren-faire coming to town and they'll actually need them to supply the dagger throwing game...and then we'll smelt them down because you've already sold us a thousand daggers."