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View Full Version : Pathfinder Is it weird that sorcerers feel less customizable than other classes?



Segev
2019-07-25, 02:56 PM
In Pathfinder, they gave Sorcerers a new mechanic: bloodlines. They did similarly for wizards with their arcane traditions. And some of what I'm going to say here applies to wizards, as well, but for some reason it stands out more to me on sorcerers.

Other classes in Pathfinder, like the Rogue, Investigator, Witch, Soulknife, Magus, even the Fighter have talents or hexes or other slottable class features that you pick and choose to build a unique structure and type into your class. You can buid towards a singular synergy, towards a theme, or just pick and choose all over.

Bloodlines are...fixed. You pick one, and get those particular powers. Every Infernal-blooded sorcerer has the same bloodline arcana and bonus spells, etc.

Now, objectively, sorcerers have tremendous flexibility to customize their spell selection. But for some reason, that doesn't feel quite the same. Maybe it's that it's just 20ish years old as a concept and PF is only 13ish, and so the slottable class features are newer? But I doubt that. I think part of it is that, for the most part, the class features are at-will abilities, or otherwise interesting unique powers. Spells consume slots, have to be cast, have durations, and are available to wizards and a number of other various classes.

The idea of building to a theme can also apply to a sorcerer's spell selection, but is almost warred against by their narrow number of spells known: lock yourself too into a theme, and you create deep vulnerabilities. Somehow, this feeling isn't transmitted by Blade Skills or Weapon Mastery or Hexes.

Am I just thinking about it wrong? Am I missing something? Or is there something to this? IF so, what is it? I'm not really sure I'm putting my finger on why I get this feeling about Sorcerers.

Even Psions, which have a similar fixed progression for their Disciplines, feel more interestingly unique; the powers they get feel like something special to that Discipline, rather than somewhat generic ribbons the way most Sorcerer Bloodline Arcana do. (Admittedly, the Shapechanger getting really long-duration self-transmutations is nice, but the 3.5 Changeling race has a more interesting feeling unique power. And the Infernal bloodline is great for a charm-focused sorcerer, but still is just bigger numbers for DCs.) So maybe that's it? Sorcerer Bloodlines don't actually give unique powers, as a general rule? Could they, and nto be overpowered? One of my favorites out of Psion is Nomad's Step, for instance, which nothing else quite matches, especially at 2nd level.

exelsisxax
2019-07-25, 03:13 PM
I don't know how to say if it's weird or not, but is definitely true. Bloodlines are really neat customization options, comparable to a wizard school. But wizards don't just have schools. Arcane bonds and discoveries are their own bit of in-class customization, and wizards have a TON of archetypes, while sorcerers have just 10(lower than any core class, and one of the lowest period). Wildblood bloodlines are nice, but really don't compare. Oracle mysteries are FAR more varied than bloodlines are due to the way revelations work, and curses are separate, so even they have a leg up in the customization area.

Leagues better than 3.5, but sorcerers just didn't catch up to clerics and wizards.

Eldonauran
2019-07-25, 05:09 PM
I happen to like that Sorcerers have a more limited set of choices to pull from, merely because they make a very easy transition for a player into the more magical classes. There are options to customize the sorcerer through archetypes (limited as they are), Bloodline mutations (like blood havoc, blood intensity, etc), and swapping out for a bloodline familiar. Even switching to the Words of Power spellcasting can make an interesting Sorcerer.

As a personal opinion, I enjoy them far greater than I do with Clerics. I'd sooner play an Inquisitor, Warpriest, or Oracle before a Cleric.

Psyren
2019-07-26, 12:52 PM
*snip*
Am I just thinking about it wrong? Am I missing something? Or is there something to this? IF so, what is it? I'm not really sure I'm putting my finger on why I get this feeling about Sorcerers.

I don't think it's weird at all; Sorcerous power comes from your blood, and blood isn't something you can really "customize" from character to character the way you can with training.

With that said, yes, I'd say there's a few options you're missing. The general/thematic customization of bloodlines like subschools and subdomains are really found in the Wildblooded archetype - this lets you have two Fey sorcerers (for example) who differ from each other in terms of abilities. More important however are items that let you shake up your bloodline powers a bit, such as Ampoule of False Blood (swap out your powers for a different bloodline) and Amulet of the Blooded (gain limited powers from another bloodline in addition to your own), both of which let you try different bloodline power/arcana combinations. Then you've also got Robe of Arcane Heritage (access higher powers in your bloodline sooner), and Sorcerer's Robe (enhance your spells with the effects of a 1st-level bloodline power.) Finally, there are Bloodline Mutations which let you swap out select bloodline powers for universal ones from a smaller list. So I'd say there's room to customize your sorcerer beyond just picking different spells.

Segev
2019-07-26, 02:19 PM
Thanks for the discussion, guys. I think a big part of my gripe may be "early mechanics" woes; a lot of later stuff seems better designed to work together with itself, while the Bloodlines are just the worst of several core-class "flavor, but no synergy" tweaks.

Psyren's right about it being tricky to justify "modifying" your bloodline, though I think having different options as you level up to customize what aspects of your heritage you'll embrace wouldn't be out of place.

I was trying to think how I'd go about this without just flat adding more level-based bonuses through a second subclass set, and I recalled something from the 3.0 Sorcerer book by Mongoose. (Ultimate Sorcerer, or something like that.) They had a concept that never got expanded beyond that 3rd-party book that I thought was interesting: give up spells known for feat-like perks that aren't spellcasting.

I've not thought of specifics, yet, but it strikes me as something interesting you could do. They cost a spell known slot of a particular level, and can even have prerequisites of other perks, or particular bloodlines, or even spells known.

Off the top of my head, "Dragon Breath" (for the dragon bloodline). It matches your heritage energy type, does a cone or line (as appropriate) out to 5 feet per spell level of the known slot sacrificed for a cone, or 10 feet per level for a line. Does spell level plus 1 die of damage (d6s for rarer to resist elements; d8s for more common). 1d4+1 recharge, just like a dragon. Can use again by expending a spell slot for the day of a level equal to the number of rounds you're circumventing.

StSword
2019-07-26, 05:57 PM
Actually, this discussion reminded me of a book someone published to make sorcerers more choice driven by adding "arcane endowments (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/rogue-genius-games-sorcerer-archetypes/arcane-endowments/)-" Sorcerer's Options: Beyond Bloodlines by Rogue Genius Games.

It also provides some archetypes for further customization- the spell point using Bedreven (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/rogue-genius-games-sorcerer-archetypes/bedreven/), the gishy Scourge (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/rogue-genius-games-sorcerer-archetypes/scourge/), and the witchy Strega (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/rogue-genius-games-sorcerer-archetypes/strega/).

So no Segev, you definitely aren't the only one who found sorcerer options limited.