A buff to all sorcerers. (spitballing)

[iTreeby]

I feel like sorcerers could use a buff. I've played a few sorcerers in 5th edition and I have a few perceptions about the class that I see echoed from time to time namely, it's spells known are too few, making it hard to play around with metamagic interactions.
I'd like to have some help brainstorming some new spells that would help sorcerers out.

The spells would be 1) sorcerer only (sorry bards, not trying to buff you) 2) able to scale well compared to current spells 3) have a draconic element and/or really cool metamagic interactions 4) be low level.


I'm having a hard time deciding on power level for these new spells but I think a good spell to base them off of is chromatic orb. Take away the ability to chose elements, add a rider, buff the scaling, but how much is too much, and what would be some good non damaging spells to emulate? Please comment if you think this is on the right track. Otherwise what principles should new sorcerer spells (or any spells) be created with?

[Dimers]

I'd suggest bonus-action self-buffing spells that have only modest direct effect but improve or cheapen metamagic on other spells. For example:

a version of mirror image that only gives you two doubles, but while you have at least one double, applying Twin metamagic costs half (rounded down)
something similar to scorching ray that's Empowered for free if you know that metamagic
a long-duration spell that improves your Charisma skills and reduces Heighten's cost to just one sorcpoint

[Nagog]

Before this thread absolutely explodes with people arguing whether or not the Sorcerer needs a buff, you should probably put in the title or original post that this is for personal use and for others who are interested in using it, not as a general update. :)

[loki_ragnarock]

I'd suggest bonus-action self-buffing spells that have only modest direct effect but improve or cheapen metamagic on other spells. For example:

a version of mirror image that only gives you two doubles, but while you have at least one double, applying Twin metamagic costs half (rounded down)
something similar to scorching ray that's Empowered for free if you know that metamagic
a long-duration spell that improves your Charisma skills and reduces Heighten's cost to just one sorcpoint


That's interesting idea. It gives the sorcerer a boost without also just letting bards ape it with magical secrets.

Alternatively, or perhaps additionally, why not have a spell that has a base effect that is enhanced or changed by spending sorcery points on the casting? That would similarly prevent bards from just stealing it for themselves.

So, say, I don't know, blue skying here:

Darkning Bolt:
As lightning bolt, but it's a 4th level spell. Scales the same for damage, change type to necrotic. Spending one sorcery point in addition to casting makes all targets make a con save or be blinded till the end of your next turn. Scale sorcery points to increase duration of blinding effect, say every two additional points extends the duration by a round.

Something like that?

[paladinn]

Give them eldritch blast with Cha-bonus. Boom.

[Stygofthedump]

100% agree
one or two Sorcerer only spells would be nice, even if they are average but different from other casters.
I like spells which target other spells like counterspell, absorb elements, and dispel magic.
So now a innate caster might learn how to use spells in a minor positive way -Spell reflection (might only reflect much lower slot spell), Spell absorption (lower save DC), Spell Hardening (Make existing spell harder to dispel).
+1 spell known at lv 3 maybe wouldn't break the bank either.

[stoutstien]

More spell know seems like the common request.
Could as simple as giving each subclass a lite version of domain spells. Maybe just one spell per tier so a total of 5 more spells.

[Kane0]

There are some from 3.5 you might be able to pinch like Wings of cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Fusion, Draconic Might, Dragon Breath, Dragonskin, Flight of the Dragon and Voice of the Dragon

[Snowbluff]

Sorcerers are already strictly the best at employing what spells they do have (with the ability to impose disadvantage on spell saves being practically nonexistent on other classes), outside from a few occasions. They don't need their own spells so much as they need a better spells known progression and maybe an expanded list (Celestial Sorcerer, for example).

However, the exceptions I mentioned are pretty big. I feel like some features one other classes do things that sorcerers would want are just better. For example, compare Careful Spell to Sculpt spells. While Sculpt spell only works on Evocations, it also removes the damage from the effect if they would have taken half, AND doesn't require you to expend resources.

I mean, I've made a save based Sorcerer (Shadow, using Heighten and the shadow puppy to nuke saves), but I've elected to take 2 levels of evoker because even though I can prevent my party from being exhausted by Sickening Radiance, I've literally spent a session doing more damage to my teammates than the enemies did to them when we tried fighting in it. Getting Find Familiar for a pet that can say, see any creature in 60 feet regardless of Invisibility, is also quite handy because (somehow) its normally outside the purview of the sorcerer.

On top of being expensive, the metamagic effects also butt in on the other important resource of the caster, being spell slots. Wizards and Warlocks both can recover slots on a Short Rest, but for a Sorcerer to extend their number of castings, they must expend their sorcery points, which they need to use their other features. It's quite like being a monk variant that requires the use of ki points to operate their archetypal abilities, while at the same time trying to fuel flurry of blows and stunning fist from the same pool of resources. Worse still is that Twin Spell and Heighten Spell emulate additional casting at what ends up being a much lower cost.

As such, my proposal is to alter the metamagic feature in order to improve it's efficiency and efficacy. Being the unique mechanic of the sorcerer, this is the natural point of change.

For example, off the top of my head, I would make the following changes:

Careful Spell: Allow it to deal no damage on a successful save, as Sculpt Spell. Furthermore, make it affect every save of that spell (some wiould argue it only affects the first one), and/or make it cost zero points as long as you have at least one Sorcery Point (as inspire some pathfinder abilities in gunslinger). Basically, it just costs a point at the start of the day.

Quicken Spell: Remove the stipulation that you can only cast a cantrip after a bonus action, leveled spell. Like, it's not at all impressive casting 2 leveled spells most of the time, given how concentration works, and the fact that anyone who has dipped in Fighter (for Action Surge) of all classes can do so, but a Sorcerer cannot innately.

Empowered Spell: Like with Careful Spell, maybe make it partially usable without points. Howe about a sorcerer can add their prof to sorcerer cantrip damage one per turn if they know this metamagic?

[loki_ragnarock]

I think the real problem is that the sorcerer requires too much system mastery to overcome the limitations of:
1) A constrained spell list
2) Precisely worded conditions and restrictions for Metamagic
3) Limited spells known
4) Limited Metamagic known
Any one of those wouldn't be too big of a deal, but all of them in conjunction means you have to have a pretty good idea of what you're doing. Building a powerful sorcerer isn't terribly hard (though not terribly easy, either) for those of us with a lot of experience, but building a bad sorcerer is extremely easy.


Say Brian wants to make a guy who points his finger at things and then *bam* those things die. Brian's a relatively inexperienced player, he look at Twin Spell, and he think to himself, "Awesome. That's gonna be my shtick. One spell, two targets. Gnarly." He looks at Quicken Spell, and he thinks to himself, "That's a third target right there, dying so fast it doesn't even see me point at it. Bitchin'."


"I'm going to cast so many Magic Missiles, dude."
No Brian, it doesn't work like that. You will be casting exactly zero twinned magic missiles. For the metamagic you selected, you've boned yourself. Maybe you can switch it out next level.
So Brian, being an enterprising fellow who doesn't want to get caught out like this again, looks into the entire sorcerer spell list to see what leveled spells will actually benefit from his "Twin Spell point at things and have them die" schtick that drew him to these choices to begin with. In the meantime, he entertains himself casting just a metric ton of cantrips.
It's a pretty short list:
Chromatic Orb
Chaos Bolt
Ice Knife
Mind Spike
Phantasmal Force
Blight
Enervation
Disintegrate
Mental Prison
Finger of Death

"Hey, guys," says Brian, "I think I figured it out."
Eh, actually, that list is wrong, Brian. Chaos bolt can potentially target more than one creature, so it's out. Yeah, it's a tiny chance, but it's a chance that invalidates twin spell. Same with Ice Knife, but that's more explicitly effecting the things around it. I know you target one thing, but it effects a bunch of others. It just isn't going to work.
"Thanks for the tip, fella. Okay, I'm trading out magic missile for chromatic orb. And I cast it!"
Do you have your 50gp diamond?
"What? Oh. I guess I didn't look at that when I was paging through every sorcerer spell available to see if it was compatible with Twin Spell. I need a diamond?"
Yeah, Brian. And you can't cast it till then.
"Okay. Thankfully we're leveling up real fast because by the end of this sentence I get to choose one of the other spells on the list! I choose phantasmal force and cast it as a 3rd level spell!"
Yeah, phantasmal force doesn't scale, Brian. It's another trap option for your concept, taking up a valuable spells known slot but only being valuable for second level spell slots. Sorry, bud.
"I feel like you're drip feeding me this as a way to make a point, which isn't very nice because I had to go through a bunch of encounters to level up by the end of this sentence. At least I've been getting some mileage out of that 50 gp diamond by now. I take Blight!"
Brian, you realize you could just cast fireball or lightning bolt and catch two creatures in the area of effect, right?
"I do, but I'm locked in now bubba, and also I cast Blight a bunch of times, enough to level up some. Now for the good stuff! Enervation Jutsu!"
So, Brian, I hate to tell you this, but that's either a great A+ idea or a terrible F- idea, depending on if your DM says the action you spend to activate it on later turns effects both targets or one target. So have fun with it or stew in your resentment, I guess.
"Jeeze. This is such a pain in the ass. I'm going to just play a ranger."
Now Brian, don't be like that, it's almost coming together for you.
"Naw, man. As a person who exists only as an example to demonstrate of the many pitfalls of the sorcerer, I think it's time to bail. See, I could take disintegrate next, but I'd probably take Mental Prison instead because that's the bad choice because the spell doesn't scale right?"
Yeah, that's what I was going to have you do. Although, why would you? Disintegrate is a bitchin, heavy metal spell name that clearly dusts people. It would have been a stretch to have you pick anything else, but one could make the argument that really hitting your base concept at level 11 seems like an achingly long time to get there.
"Yeah, that's why I'm playing a ranger. Probably a Beastmaster. It's simpler."


Of course, at some point Jeremy, who is a mincing ass, would bray, "Silly Brian, didn't you know that Twin spell was only for applying buffs and debuffs rather than direct damage? What a hopeless maroon."
To which Brian reply's, "I didn't know that when I started. It's pretty obvious now. It's also pretty obvious that there's a serious design problem when selecting one of your two metamagics results in pigeonholing you so thoroughly while being utterly oblique about it. That's why I'm playing a Beastmaster ranger, Jeremy. Sorcerer is too damn finicky, and my experience with it has turned me off of the class. Hopefully this change will keep me from being turned off the whole hobby."
And Brian was never seen again.

TL;DR
Because of the limited spells known, Sorcerer's have to pick spells that scale at least a little because every spell has to be relevant at every level. It's even more important for them than for Warlocks.
Because of the way metamagic interacts with spells on their spell list, the choice of metamagic can pigeonhole a player into a style they weren't actually interested in playing.
Because of the limited choices for metamagic coupled with the inability to switch them out, they can be trapped into that pigeonhole without any RAW recourse.
Making a sorcerer you don't actually want to play is startlingly easy.


If you wanted to lean into the sorcerer being the system mastery class, you could just eliminate their spell list entirely and let them learn whatever spells they want from whichever list. Effectively 12 instances of magical secrets. That'd eliminate a constraint while rewarding system mastery, for sure.

But as I think the problem is actually the extensive limitations of the sorcerer, it'd be easier just do *one* of the following:
1 Let them know all the metamagic options immediately and let players pick the ones they think are most fun in any given instance. Players will naturally gravitate to the ones that work for them, they all are fueled by a limited daily resource, and the built in limitations will still prevent them from dropping three fireballs a round.
2 Get rid of the finnicky language and half measures inherent to metamagic. Let them drop multiple fireballs a round without hurting their allies. Eliminate the obliqueness that inhibits them with all this exacting nuance.
3 Double their spells known. This takes the pressure off of having the exact spells that interact with their metamagics in an exact way. Now it's less likely that choosing a spell that doesn't synergize precisely will trap you into not being able to use your metamagic for an entire level of spell slots. It also makes selecting scaling spells less of a basic requirement. The pressure is off.


My hot take.

[paladinn]

I think the real problem is that the sorcerer requires too much system mastery to overcome the limitations of:
1) A constrained spell list
2) Precisely worded conditions and restrictions for Metamagic
3) Limited spells known
4) Limited Metamagic known
Any one of those wouldn't be too big of a deal, but all of them in conjunction means you have to have a pretty good idea of what you're doing. Building a powerful sorcerer isn't terribly hard (though not terribly easy, either) for those of us with a lot of experience, but building a bad sorcerer is extremely easy.

TL;DR
Because of the limited spells known, Sorcerer's have to pick spells that scale at least a little because every spell has to be relevant at every level. It's even more important for them than for Warlocks.
Because of the way metamagic interacts with spells on their spell list, the choice of metamagic can pigeonhole a player into a style they weren't actually interested in playing.
Because of the limited choices for metamagic coupled with the inability to switch them out, they can be trapped into that pigeonhole without any RAW recourse.
Making a sorcerer you don't actually want to play is startlingly easy.

If you wanted to lean into the sorcerer being the system mastery class, you could just eliminate their spell list entirely and let them learn whatever spells they want from whichever list. Effectively 12 instances of magical secrets. That'd eliminate a constraint while rewarding system mastery, for sure.

But as I think the problem is actually the extensive limitations of the sorcerer, it'd be easier just do *one* of the following:
1 Let them know all the metamagic options immediately and let players pick the ones they think are most fun in any given instance. Players will naturally gravitate to the ones that work for them, they all are fueled by a limited daily resource, and the built in limitations will still prevent them from dropping three fireballs a round.
2 Get rid of the finnicky language and half measures inherent to metamagic. Let them drop multiple fireballs a round without hurting their allies. Eliminate the obliqueness that inhibits them with all this exacting nuance.
3 Double their spells known. This takes the pressure off of having the exact spells that interact with their metamagics in an exact way. Now it's less likely that choosing a spell that doesn't synergize precisely will trap you into not being able to use your metamagic for an entire level of spell slots. It also makes selecting scaling spells less of a basic requirement. The pressure is off.

My hot take.

I actually like the idea of letting a sorc take whatever spells s/he wants; but then what is the point of a divine soul?

I don't have a problem with limiting the spells known; that's how it was in 3x. But 3x made up for it by giving more spells/day. In 5e, that could translate into sorcery points. Give them more a few more spell slots/day, and add their Cha bonus to their sorcery points. And give them eldritch blast.. lol

Hey, most players take sorc as a blaster class, so let em blast!

[Dork_Forge]

Other than maybe one more known spell to help with choices (and I'd like to see flame shield on their list...) the buff I've been toying around with is:
Sorcerous Recovery: Once per day after a short rest you recover a number of sorcery points equal to half your Sorcerer level rounded up.

Let's them go a bit further with metamagic or even let's the only naturally inclined magic user regain magical energy by physically resting.

[GorogIrongut]

There are two camps on this subject... and I tend to fall in between the two. Metamagic can make crazy things happen and if you choose your spells wisely, you can be ridiculously overpowered. That said, I also don't think it has the 'feel' people were expecting. Of a charismatic, off the cuff, at one with all thing magical kind of caster. If anything... it feels like an overly analytical and hyper specialized variant of a wizard (the kind who tries to delve in between the barriers of the world and understand the very building blocks of magic...). Which is also a cool idea for a character subclass... but not quite what most expect a sorceror to be.

As such, if sorcerors need tweaking, I think they need a tweak from the top down to give them the right feel.

If it were me, I'd do it as follows:

Class Features
As a sorcerer, you gain the following class features.

Hit Dice: 1d6 (6 at 1st level)
Proficiencies
Armor: None
Weapons: Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Charisma and Special
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion, and Religion

Jack of All Trades: Interacting with the world comes easy to the Sorceror. As with all things that come easy, unless pushed, the Sorceror rarely digs in deep and learns anything profoundly. As a result of this, the Sorceror is only able to learn 4 skills at creation. At levels 7, 14 and 20 the Sorceror's skill cap increases by one. This means that through feats and any other means they have the potential to learn another skill. In exchange for this, they get half their Charisma modifer (rounded down) added to any skill check. The Sorceror is only able to ever have one skill he has Expertise in. If used in MC'ing, the player has to choose whether or not to use Jack of All Trades (and thus limiting all skills and saves) or to completely disregard it and all of its effects.

The Sorceror is surrounded by a halo of charismatic luck. The Sorceror has expertise in all Charisma saves. Any other save the player is forced to take benefits from half their Charisma modifier (rounded up) being added to any saving throw.

Spellcasting:
An event in your past, or in the life of a parent or ancestor, left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with arcane magic. This font of magic, whatever its origin, fuels your spells.
Cantrips and Spell Slots as per the original Sorceror

Spells Known: Magic can come to you as easy as breathing if you allow it to. Sorcerors know all spells on their list of appropriate level and have no need to prepare spells.

Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a sorcerer spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

YOU are your own Spellcasting Focus. No other foci, chemicals or objects are required in your casting, unless you cast a spell that has components that are expended while casting. In this case, you are able to use a money equivalent in exchange for the required components on any spell up to level 7.

Magic Unfettered: Sorcerors aren't bound by many of the laws of magic. They use the Spell Point magic system from the DMG. They are also able to cast multiple level 1+ spells in the same turn as long as they have the means to do so. This cannot be done in tandem while casting a level 8+ spell.

Sorcerous Origins (are too much for me to get into in this rough example I'm providing you. I like many of the already existing ones, they would just have to be tweaked to fit in with base class changes to be balanced. That and the Stone Sorceror would have to become official, the Wild Mage would have to be rescued from it's patheticness and the subclasses would have to be more closely linked with a given Metamagic). This continues to occur at level 1.


Metamagic
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs. You gain two of the following Metamagic options of your choice. You gain another one at 10th and 17th level.

You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted.

All Metamagics as listed in the original Sorceror listing remain as they are. The Sorceror loses Font of Magic, Sorcery Points and Flexible Casting. Instead of using Sorcery Points to fuel their Metamagic they instead use their Spell Points to do the same thing.

Sorcerorous Master (in place of Sorcerous Restoration): At level 20, the Sorceror embodies the powers he has been blessed/cursed with. They gets a +1 to all skill checks and saving throws. They are also able to use the first point of Metamagic usage for free and are no longer bound by limitations on mixing multiple metamagics.



Now, I know that's all kinds of rough, but it my head it feels much more like a Sorceror. The kind of caster that can blow all of it's resources in a majestic explosion of magic or carefully tote each Spell Point to get maximum benefit over the long run. The kind of caster that has no limits and can operate however it chooses... as long as they recognize that they get no extra Sorcery or Spell Points to fuel their magic. Spell Points free them to cast how they want while simultaneously restricting their overall casting.

[Nagog]

Give them eldritch blast with Cha-bonus. Boom.

Warlocks need to get an Invocation to get that bonus, and invocations are few and powerful. Perhaps tweak this to Fire Bolt and using a Sorc Point allows you to add you Cha to it for a period of time?



Jack of All Trades: Interacting with the world comes easy to the Sorceror. As with all things that come easy, unless pushed, the Sorceror rarely digs in deep and learns anything profoundly. As a result of this, the Sorceror is only able to learn 4 skills at creation. At levels 7, 14 and 20 the Sorceror's skill cap increases by one. This means that through feats and any other means they have the potential to learn another skill. In exchange for this, they get half their Charisma modifer (rounded down) added to any skill check. The Sorceror is only able to ever have one skill he has Expertise in. If used in MC'ing, the player has to choose whether or not to use Jack of All Trades (and thus limiting all skills and saves) or to completely disregard it and all of its effects.

The Sorceror is surrounded by a halo of charismatic luck. The Sorceror has expertise in all Charisma saves. Any other save the player is forced to take benefits from half their Charisma modifier (rounded up) being added to any saving throw.



This part right here /needs/ to be nerfed. you essentially combining a Paladin's Aura (one of it's most powerful abilities, gained at level 6) and a buffed Bard's ability of the same name (gained at level 2) to a sorcerer at (presumably, as it's not stated) 1st level. Also, expertise in saving throws is insanely broken, particularly when it's in a spellcasting ability and it's one that a ton of spells target. If you combine that bonus with a paladin in the party, you are for all intents and purposes immune to anything that requires a saving throw.



Spellcasting:
An event in your past, or in the life of a parent or ancestor, left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with arcane magic. This font of magic, whatever its origin, fuels your spells.
Cantrips and Spell Slots as per the original Sorceror

Spells Known: Magic can come to you as easy as breathing if you allow it to. Sorcerors know all spells on their list of appropriate level and have no need to prepare spells.


This is as broken as it gets. You aren't limited to any spell preparation and you have access to the entire sorcerer spell list any any given point in time? No class has that extreme level of power. Even limiting the sorcerer to only casting one spell per level per day wouldn't balance this out.



YOU are your own Spellcasting Focus. No other foci, chemicals or objects are required in your casting, unless you cast a spell that has components that are expended while casting. In this case, you are able to use a money equivalent in exchange for the required components on any spell up to level 7.


Considering most Dms don't care either way and/or assume you have the materials, this wouldn't make much a difference anyway.



Magic Unfettered: Sorcerors aren't bound by many of the laws of magic. They use the Spell Point magic system from the DMG. They are also able to cast multiple level 1+ spells in the same turn as long as they have the means to do so. This cannot be done in tandem while casting a level 8+ spell.

Sorcerous Origins (are too much for me to get into in this rough example I'm providing you. I like many of the already existing ones, they would just have to be tweaked to fit in with base class changes to be balanced. That and the Stone Sorceror would have to become official, the Wild Mage would have to be rescued from it's patheticness and the subclasses would have to be more closely linked with a given Metamagic). This continues to occur at level 1.


Metamagic
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs. You gain two of the following Metamagic options of your choice. You gain another one at 10th and 17th level.

You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted.

All Metamagics as listed in the original Sorceror listing remain as they are. The Sorceror loses Font of Magic, Sorcery Points and Flexible Casting. Instead of using Sorcery Points to fuel their Metamagic they instead use their Spell Points to do the same thing.


How do you calculate Spell Points? Is this the variant rules Spell Points? Are these re branded Sorcery Points?



Sorcerorous Master (in place of Sorcerous Restoration): At level 20, the Sorceror embodies the powers he has been blessed/cursed with. They gets a +1 to all skill checks and saving throws. They are also able to use the first point of Metamagic usage for free and are no longer bound by limitations on mixing multiple metamagics.


So a further buff to the Jack of All Trades from above to continue making playing a Bard or Paladin more and more lackluster.


All in all, this "tweak" is pretty much an entirely new class that completely unbalances the game. As much as I think Sorcerers need a buff, this is heavily overdoing it.

[loki_ragnarock]

I actually like the idea of letting a sorc take whatever spells s/he wants; but then what is the point of a divine soul?
Well, I don't have a great answer. But what is arguably the best origin because it expands the spell list would lose a little value because all sorcerers get it too? Something something, bringing the rest up to par, something something.


I don't have a problem with limiting the spells known; that's how it was in 3x. But 3x made up for it by giving more spells/day. In 5e, that could translate into sorcery points. Give them more a few more spell slots/day, and add their Cha bonus to their sorcery points. And give them eldritch blast.. lol
Yeah, I used to think that, too. But after a bunch of thought about it, my opinion changed a bit. How many spell points they get a day helps a sorcerer deal with a tactical problem. But honestly, once they get out of the lower level sad space, sorcerers do pretty great on a tactical level.
It's the strategic level that really hurts the class, and I think that's where it needs the most help; the strategic layer sets up all tactical considerations, and the strategic layer is where it's very easy to accidently nerf your sorcerer.


But as I think the problem is actually the extensive limitations of the sorcerer, it'd be easier just do *one* of the following:
1 Let them know all the metamagic options immediately and let players pick the ones they think are most fun in any given instance. Players will naturally gravitate to the ones that work for them, they all are fueled by a limited daily resource, and the built in limitations will still prevent them from dropping three fireballs a round.
2 Get rid of the finnicky language and half measures inherent to metamagic. Let them drop multiple fireballs a round without hurting their allies. Eliminate the obliqueness that inhibits them with all this exacting nuance.
3 Double their spells known. This takes the pressure off of having the exact spells that interact with their metamagics in an exact way. Now it's less likely that choosing a spell that doesn't synergize precisely will trap you into not being able to use your metamagic for an entire level of spell slots. It also makes selecting scaling spells less of a basic requirement. The pressure is off.


My hot take.

This guy wasn't thinking it through; a rough and tumble change to the base chassis isn't required when you could make any of those weakening constraints into the defining features of an origin; if the celestial origin already does a little bit of giving them every spell list, then other origins can (and probably should!) help mitigate the others.


As a quick spit, something like this to deal with item 3:
Origin: Savant
Where a wizard studies, you just do. You always have, breathing life into spells with an inborn, inexplicable talent that is unique to you. Perhaps your soul was touched by Boccob or graced by Mystra or Shar. Perhaps you were exposed to a pool of radioactive spell components. Perhaps it all just comes to you in dreams, like text from a book that doesn't exist. Who knows? Who cares?
Whatever the source, you can pull the wonderous from nowhere. Less of a skill, more of an art.
Quick to Master - Level 1, whenever you would gain a new spell known, you instead gain two. Whenever you can trade out an old spell for a new one, you can instead trade two.

Something like that.

[paladinn]

Warlocks need to get an Invocation to get that bonus, and invocations are few and powerful. Perhaps tweak this to Fire Bolt and using a Sorc Point allows you to add you Cha to it for a period of time?


Sorcs can get firebolt anyway. I think letting them have EB would be good. Maybe using SP to power it up is an option.

[Nagog]

Well, I don't have a great answer. But what is arguably the best origin because it expands the spell list would lose a little value because all sorcerers get it too? Something something, bringing the rest up to par, something something.

This guy wasn't thinking it through; a rough and tumble change to the base chassis isn't required when you could make any of those weakening constraints into the defining features of an origin; if the celestial origin already does a little bit of giving them every spell list, then other origins can (and probably should!) help mitigate the others.


As a quick spit, something like this to deal with item 3:
Origin: Savant
Where a wizard studies, you just do. You always have, breathing life into spells with an inborn, inexplicable talent that is unique to you. Perhaps your soul was touched by Baccob or graced by Mystra or Shar. Perhaps you were exposed to a pool of radioactive spell components. Perhaps it all just comes to you in dreams, like text from a book that doesn't exist. Who knows? Who cares?
Whatever the source, you can pull the wonderous from nowhere. Less of a skill, more of an art.
Quick to Master - Level 1, whenever you would gain a new spell known, you instead gain two. Whenever you can trade out an old spell for a new one, you can instead trade two.

Something like that.

I agree that having different Sorcerous Origins should emulate the Celestial Soul for granting access to other spell lists, as even just having access to a huge variety of spells could grant the Sorcerer the identity it needs to stand out from other casters. Make it less of a Multi-Classing dip for Metamagic and make it a class all it's own. Imagine a Sorcerer that can cast Armor of Agathys as a 7th level spell, wading into melee combat with their daggers, or a Druidic Sorcerer casting a Heightened Faerie Fire to give the Rogue sneak attack every round on all enemies, or even a Sorcerer using a Twinned Find Greater Steed to grant 2 party members flying mounts.


Sorcs can get firebolt anyway. I think letting them have EB would be good. Maybe using SP to power it up is an option.

Considering EB is a trademark of Warlocks, I think it'd be fine just having Sorcerers use Firebolt as their version of it. Also fits with the Sorcerers generally elemental feel.

[Mjolnirbear]

A minor buff I've incorporated, and will be playtesting soon, is to have the sorcerer count as an arcane focus for spells on his class list.

Subtle Spell will thus make most spells impossible to detect and counter, and it's incredibly thematic. It feels more like sorcerers *are* the magic if they don't need bat guano or a tea leaf every time they cast a spell.

[Bobthewizard]

If you have a wizard in the party, they will feel overshadowed if you give the sorcerer more prepared spells or an expanded spell list.

I think sorcerers are fine pretty much as is. But if I were to give them a buff I’d lean into sorcerer instead of making them more like wizards. Maybe a few more sorcery points (or a SR recovery) and an extra meta magic at level 3. I like the idea above of removing material components for sorcerers too, although be careful with this for sorcadins.

With new players, I’m also very forgiving of spell and meta magic choices and let them change out any that aren’t fun for them.

Finally, I let dragon sorcerers change any one or two damage spells to their damage type and I let wild magic sorcerers change any damage spell to Chaos with a random damage type. They can make this choice when they prepare the spell, not at the time of casting.

[iTreeby]

I really appreciate all of the time that you all have put into these answers however, I am trying to avoid rewriting the sorcerer class(or subclasses). Special thanks to loki_ragnarock for actually taking a crack at making a spell.


That's interesting idea. It gives the sorcerer a boost without also just letting bards ape it with magical secrets.

Darkning Bolt:
As lightning bolt, but it's a 4th level spell. Scales the same for damage, change type to necrotic. Spending one sorcery point in addition to casting makes all targets make a con save or be blinded till the end of your next turn. Scale sorcery points to increase duration of blinding effect, say every two additional points extends the duration by a round.

Something like that?
I definitely like the idea of the spell being improvable with sorcery points but that is unexplored design space that could be hard to balance.

I feel like I've done a bad job of explaining my reasoning for trying to give the sorcerer more spells known.


If you have a wizard in the party, they will feel overshadowed if you give the sorcerer more prepared spells or an expanded spell list.

...

Finally, I let dragon sorcerers change any one or two damage spells to their damage type and I let wild magic sorcerers change any damage spell to Chaos with a random damage type. They can make this choice when they prepare the spell, not at the time of casting.

Essentially what I am trying to avoid if giving sorcerers more spells known. I don't think it's a problem to give sorcerers a few unique spells because currently there is not a single spell that a sorcerer can cast that a wizard cannot cast (aside from the limited lists of divine soul sorcerers) whereas wizards get rituals and several spells that would be great for sorcerers (magic jar, Melf's acid arrow, Bigsby's hand).

Certain draconic heritages aren't actually supported by the spells they can actually use, basically any choice beside fire is not going to have many good options. So let's make some spells that remedy that deficiency by making a few spells in the other damage types that scale well or actually synergize with metamagic.

Here is an example spell

Acid Flux
Casting time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: VSM (a small amount of stomach acid in a vial)

A small splash of acid materializes somewhere within range and flies toward a target. Make a ranged spell attack against the target on a hit they take 2d4 acid damage and are blinded until the end of their next turn. On a miss the target takes half as much damage and is not blinded.

At higher levels: when you cast this spell with a slot of second level or higher increase the damage by 2d4 for each slot level above 1st.


Is this spell too powerful? Probably, blind is a really good effect but if this spell did exist, every draconic origin (copper) would spend a valuable spell known on it. The spell also works better with the subtle metamagic because it isn't obvious where the splash comes from when the components are not used (compared to Melf's acid arrow which does more damage but cannot be selected by sorcerers anyway).

[InspectorG]

IMO, a small homebrew buff for Sorcerers:

Dragon and Wild each need 3-5 more spells known.
Dragon should have Control/Domination themed spells because Dragons via Dominance imply Law(Command, Cause Fear, etc.). Dragon Elemental damage for the Dragon Ancestory, IMO, should bypass Resistance/Invulnerability. Because Fire.
Wild should get 3-5 from ANY list, because Wild implies Chaos which can be unpredictable. I dont care if the Bard feels bad about his Secrets, go whistle some Dixie.


All Sorcerers should get All Metas at lvl 3. Extend needs a buff, it really only helps gish builds. Distant, IMO, should expand AoE effects somehow, like expanding range of an AoE's geometric shape, or allowing a Self range to be projected out 30ft so that point could be the origin for a Cone or Cube.

Sorcs are already pretty powerful(...maybe not Storm) but you HAVE to know how to get the most out of your spell list and Action Economy.
They tend to get labeled as Blasters, but tons of Control is to be had. Twin as optimized Action Economy, you can double buffs(less risk than debuffs) which doubles the value of a Concentration cost. Quicken can provide one-turn lockdown(low to mid levels at least) as well as defense/mobility while maintaining some DPR/Control.

Sorcerers do kinda scream that they want a multiclass dip, and the dip have to be considered because a small buff to a Sorc can blow-up a dip into being OP. Sorlocks and Sorcadins are about the threshold.

Wild Sorc with a dip in Lore Master Wizard can do some crazy control.
Dragon Sorc with dip in Lore Master Wiz can boost the Dragon Ancestor damage buff by typing other spells to its ancestral element. Disintegrate retyped to fire vs a fire-vulnerable opponent + Empowered casting = HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Sunbeam? Finger of Death? Squeeze out that extra damage! You dont need to know 85 different damage spells, honest!

Dip in Storm Cleric allows 80 damage Chain Lightning...

2 level dip in Fighter allows an Action Surge, which allows Sorcerers to abuse the Action Economy.

You have to factor these in with a Buff to a class that plays with the Action Economy.

[Sindal]

Some unique spells would be pretty neat. Though the problem is that it they have such smaller known spells, it they get really good exclusive spells, those are gonna be what most sorcerers take.

My personal homebrew changes that I'm comfortable with:

1)ruling in favour of the player regarding metamagic spells if it makes sense to the rules of magic casting and the 'intention' remains thr same. Not outright breaking the limitars but being more open allowing more spells to work with them so less are traps.

(E.g. twinspell needs you to target one creature and no others.

I would allow you to, say, twincast magic missile if you shot all of the darts at one target like most people do. The twinned spell would be the same onto another target. The second you try and mix and match it doesn't work. If you ovedamage one, that's just the price of twinspelling. Twinning chromatic orb is a superior option from a damage and elemental.exploit reason so I see no reason a spell that 'can' only target one person for less damage and more accuracy shouldn't be allowed.

Or

Allow distant spell to interact with spells like counterspell. By rules this won't work because a reaction is a specifc interaction. If it doesn't trigger, you cant choose to cqst it. however , I would rule that because you as a sorcerer know you can make your spells reach further, you are able to mentally adjust the range of the reaction requirement because that makes sense.

Still can't double fireball tho heh)

Doesn't add more power, just more flexibility to the spells sorcerors already have.

2) at level 8, give them the 'dont need material component if it has no cost' perk. Its mostly a ribbon in most games and won't matter but getting it later gives me the impression that a sorcerors ability to control their innate magic has reached a point where they don't require a focus anymore. It also makes one metamagic option (subtle) more appealing to tie into the whole 'this is what sorcerors do ' kinda image.

Effectively doesn't add much unless the sorcerer gets his wand taken away. It Alzo makes it look they like actually get something new instead of just 'more spells slots, more sp, more metamagic'

3) "Engraved spells"

At levels 1 3 5 7 and 9 you learn one extra spell. This spell must follow the current criteria.

>this spell must be from your available spell list
>this spell must be of the highest level you can learn at the time (1 2 3 4 and 5)
>once you select this engraved spell, it cannot be switched out on level up.
>if you would learn a spell as part of your
Sorcerors bloodline, that spell takes the space of your engraved spell at that level. Anything unique about that spell remains.

(This effectively let's sorcerors be the only class that is able to manually choose its own 'domain spell' list and gives newer sorcerors some breathing room at earlier levels.

Dragon, wild storm would have the most freedom.

Shadow soul gets darkness, which they can cast in a unique empowerd way.

Divine soul gets a choice of 5 at the start, however the note also state that it can be replaced with any other cleric spell. Which would make them the only sorcerors able to edit their engraved spell list slightly)

Just my takes.

[bendking]

IMO, a small homebrew buff for Sorcerers:

Dragon and Wild each need 3-5 more spells known.
Dragon should have Control/Domination themed spells because Dragons via Dominance imply Law(Command, Cause Fear, etc.). Dragon Elemental damage for the Dragon Ancestory, IMO, should bypass Resistance/Invulnerability. Because Fire.
Wild should get 3-5 from ANY list, because Wild implies Chaos which can be unpredictable. I dont care if the Bard feels bad about his Secrets, go whistle some Dixie.


All Sorcerers should get All Metas at lvl 3. Extend needs a buff, it really only helps gish builds. Distant, IMO, should expand AoE effects somehow, like expanding range of an AoE's geometric shape, or allowing a Self range to be projected out 30ft so that point could be the origin for a Cone or Cube.

Sorcs are already pretty powerful(...maybe not Storm) but you HAVE to know how to get the most out of your spell list and Action Economy.
They tend to get labeled as Blasters, but tons of Control is to be had. Twin as optimized Action Economy, you can double buffs(less risk than debuffs) which doubles the value of a Concentration cost. Quicken can provide one-turn lockdown(low to mid levels at least) as well as defense/mobility while maintaining some DPR/Control.

Sorcerers do kinda scream that they want a multiclass dip, and the dip have to be considered because a small buff to a Sorc can blow-up a dip into being OP. Sorlocks and Sorcadins are about the threshold.

Wild Sorc with a dip in Lore Master Wizard can do some crazy control.
Dragon Sorc with dip in Lore Master Wiz can boost the Dragon Ancestor damage buff by typing other spells to its ancestral element. Disintegrate retyped to fire vs a fire-vulnerable opponent + Empowered casting = HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Sunbeam? Finger of Death? Squeeze out that extra damage! You dont need to know 85 different damage spells, honest!

Dip in Storm Cleric allows 80 damage Chain Lightning...

2 level dip in Fighter allows an Action Surge, which allows Sorcerers to abuse the Action Economy.

You have to factor these in with a Buff to a class that plays with the Action Economy.

I think you might like Tweaked Sorcerer by SwordMeow :)
It adds domain spells, a few more metamagics sprinkled throughout and Self Focus.

[Kane0]

Some other ideas:


Repulsion
Transmutation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take in response to being damaged by a creature within 5 feet of you that you can see
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

You jump up to five feet away from the attacker. This movement does not provoke an opportunity attack.
The distance you can jump increases by five feet when you reach 5th level (10 feet), 11th level (15 feet) and 17th level (20 feet).


Irradiate
1st-Level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 60 feet
Components: None
Duration: Instantaneous

Select a point you can see within range. A 5 foot radius around this point is bathed in green light which kills off all nonmagical plant life. Creatures caught within the area take 1d4 Radiant and 1d4 Necrotic damage, or half if they succeed on a Constitution Saving Throw against your Spell DC. The area this spell effects is effectively salted and remains barren for up to one year.
At higher levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the radius increases by 5 feet for every slot level above 1st.


Putrid Haze
1st-Level Transmutation
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 120 feet
Components: None
Duration: Concentration, up to one minute

You target one corpse you can see within range. The target corpse decomposes, spilling forth a toxic vapor in a 10 foot radius. Any creature that starts its turn within this area takes 1d10 poison damage, or half if they succeed on a Constitution saving throw against your spell DC. Creatures that fail their saving throw are also poisoned until the end of their next turn.
If the spell affects the target corpse for the full duration the corpse is fully decomposed when the spell ends. A moderate or stronger wind disperses the vapor and ends the spell.
At higher levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d10 for every slot level above 1st.



Discern Weakness
2nd-Level Divination
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
For the duration, you sense the weaknesses of creatures within 30 feet of you. You can use your action to determine one damage vulnerability, source of disadvantage or the lowest saving throw of one creature you can see within 30 feet.



Summon Monster
2nd-level Conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to one minute

You call forth a single Monstrosity type creature of CR 1/2 or lower, appearing in a space you can see within range. Roll initiative for the creature, which has its own turns. When you summon it and on each of your turns you can issue a verbal command to it (requiring no action on your part), telling it what to do on its next turn. If you issue no command it spends its turn attacking any creature that has attacked it.
If you stop concentrating on this spell before it reaches its full duration the summoned creature disappears immediately.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the CR of the creature you can summon increases by 1 for each slot level above 2nd.



Dimensional Anchor
3rd-level Abjuration
Casting Time: 1 Bonus Action
Range: 120 feet
Components: S, M (a small lead weight)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You attempt to lock one creature you can see to the plane they are currently on. The target must make a Charisma saving throw or be anchored until the spell ends.
An anchored creature cannot teleport or be transported to another plane, such as by using the Blink or Plane Shift spells.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 3rd.



Glacial Grasp
3rd Level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 90 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a ranged spell attack against one creature you can see within range. On a hit, the target takes 8d8 cold damage and has their speed reduced to 0 until the end of their next turn.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the damage increases by 2d8 for each slot above 4th.



Ray of Exhaustion
3rd Level Necromancy
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 120 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a ranged spell attack against one creature you can see within range. On a hit, the target takes 6d6 necrotic damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or gain one level of exhaustion.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot above 3rd.



Timelapse
5th level Transmutation
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

You regain the use of your action, bonus action and up to half of your expended movement from your current turn. You do not gain or regain any extra actions, bonus actions or movement.



Storm Shroud
5th Level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: 1 minute

A field of lightning encases you. You gain resistance to lightning damage, and whenever a creature within 5 feet of you hits you with a melee Attack, the attacker takes 2d6 lightning damage and must succeed on a constitution saving throw or be stunned until the start of their next turn.



Avasculate
7th Level Evocation

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a ranged spell attack against one creature you can see within range. On a hit, the target's current HP is halved and they must succeed on a constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of their next turn. This spell has no effect on undead and constructs.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 8th level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 7th.

[paladinn]

I was a Huge fan of sorcerers when they came out in 3e. I was soo tired of Vancian "fire-and-forget" casting. Now that everyone is a spontaneous caster (a good thing), there doesn't seem to be much rationale for having a separate sorcerer class. Kinda like, why have a ranger when just about anyone can do the things a ranger can do (maybe not the the same extent, but..)

I just think there needs to be more to differentiate the qualities of a wizard and a sorc, as there was in 3x.

1. Let the wizard have their more-spells-prepared based on INT; give the sorc more spell slots or sorc points or something based on CHA.

2. Add "upcast spell" as metamagic. 1 SP gets you an upcast of one spell level.

3. Let the sorc be proficient with light armor and simple weapons.

4. Expand the Divine Soul concept to include other spell lists: a "Primal Soul" for druid spells

5. Definitely add some SP recovery feature.

The wizard "learns magic"; the sorc "is magic".

[Spiritchaser]

My biggest issue with the sorcerer is that to be functional at a decent level, it needs to be built with a synergy between its metamagic and its spells, and to complicate things, these choices don’t flex well.

The party changes and other spells are needed? Even if you can slowly trade those out, you can’t change your metamagic to synegize with them.

I’ve houseruled that a sorcerer can change out spells far more often, and switch up metamagic too.

As a lesser concern, I think sorcerers need a few more spells known (though really not many more... 2-5 more only) and they need access to a few spells that are, for inexplicable reasons, not on their list.

I’ve tried to address this by letting sorcerers pick two spells of their choice from the wizard list, and i’d Consider a few druid spells to if anyone ever asked... but I probably need to think harder about the levels these spells occur at.

As a distant third place? I’d like to see a few unique spells on the sorcerer list that are well suited to be used with metamagic. Yes a bard could grab them, but without quicken, heightening or whatever, these just wouldn’t work as well. Sometimes it feels like some of the better potential meta magic synergies were deliberately excluded from the sorcerer list, and I think that, maybe a few monsters notwithstanding, exactly the opposite philosophy should have been applied.

[Vogie]

The only thing I'd do for giving more early spells, is by doing it based on Sorcerous Origin.

Draconic Bloodline - gain Chromatic Orb for free
Divine Soul - One Cleric spell for free based on alignment (RAW)
Giant Soul (UA) - Already included
Phoenix Sorcery - gain Aganazzar's Scorcher for free and cast with -1 sorc points
Pyromancy (Kaladesh) - Gain Control Flames and Flaming Sphere (at level 3) for free
Sea Sorcery (UA) - gain Shape Water cantrip and Witch Bolt free
Shadow Magic - gain Darkness for free and cast with -1 sorc points (RAW)
Stone Sorcery (UA) - In addition to the Expanded spell list, choose one to learn immediately.
Storm Sorcery - gain Lightning Lure and Create/Destroy Water free
Wild Magic - gain Chaos Bolt for free

[Yakk]

You regain all spent sorcery points when you finish a long rest short or long rest.


Creating Spell Slots. When you cast a spell you can cast it via sorcery points. The spell slot you are considered casting it from is determined by how many sorcery points you spend. It requires 3 times the slot level, minus one, in sorcery points to cast a spell this way. You can never cast a spell with a slot greater than level 5 in this way.

When you do this, you can also apply all metamagic effects you know that are valid for free to the spell.


Sorcerous RestorationAt 20th level, you can spend a bonus action to regain 4 expended sorcery points. You can do this again whenever you finish a long or short rest.

That fun enough?

[InspectorG]

I think you might like Tweaked Sorcerer by SwordMeow :)
It adds domain spells, a few more metamagics sprinkled throughout and Self Focus.

I checked that out, its pretty good, but not my cup of tea. Definitely A for effort.

IMO, in my gaming-age, i prefer slight/minimal changes to overhauls. I guess i got burned out searching through 948769476 splat books for tidbits of info between D&D, Battletech, Vampire: the Masquerade, and Warhammer Fantasy.

The Draconic bloodline in that homebrew had a nice tweak. The rest were a bit too much for me.

And please no more Psionics. I barely survived that pit of despair in 2E. :smalltongue:

[bendking]

I checked that out, its pretty good, but not my cup of tea. Definitely A for effort.

IMO, in my gaming-age, i prefer slight/minimal changes to overhauls. I guess i got burned out searching through 948769476 splat books for tidbits of info between D&D, Battletech, Vampire: the Masquerade, and Warhammer Fantasy.

The Draconic bloodline in that homebrew had a nice tweak. The rest were a bit too much for me.

And please no more Psionics. I barely survived that pit of despair in 2E. :smalltongue:

You could always ignore the new sub-classes and just use the altered changes to the base of the class (that's what I would do).
Namely, Origin Bonus Spells, more Metamagics, Self Focus.

In fact, I made a tweak to this tweak myself In which I added back Wild Magic & Shadow Magic, if you'd like to peruse (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LkhWf9e5_gTKmUyF3EN) it.
I'll probably make a version without all the additional sub-classes and revert Godtouched to Divine Soul, just to make it an even cleaner departure.
Also you'll notice in my tweak I reduced the number of metamagics earned in the respective levels to 1 instead of 2.

EDIT: I did decide to make a version with the additional sub-classes removed (though I'm a huge fan of Imperial & Wintry) here (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-Ll0XRA_GkXeV31HG-6B).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The only buff a sorcerer needs to based around metamagic

They need more and they need to have an at-will version of themselves.

Subtle Spell
0 SP: When you cast a spell that has both verbal and somatic components, you may ignore one or the other.

1 SP: As normal

This way you focus on what the Sorcerer is all about.

Empower Meta Magic would be adding Cha mod to the damage that a cant rip does, for 0 SP. Instant awesome.

[Raxxius]

I let sorcs rebuild their spell list at set points in the game.

This allows people to not regret spell choices, but still limits their versatility on a session to session basis.

My players aren't mega power gamers however.

I also think it's fitting for the class to change and grow.

[Bjarkmundur]

I thought we solved this already? Didn't we merge spell points and sorcery points. remove the spell slots, recalculated the sorcerer's points per level, and change font of magic into "You regain a portion of your maximum sorcery points at the end of a short rest"?

[bendking]

I thought we solved this already? Didn't we merge spell points and sorcery points. remove the spell slots, recalculated the sorcerer's points per level, and change font of magic into "You regain a portion of your maximum sorcery points at the end of a short rest"?

It would seem quite a lot people here think that would be OP.

[paladinn]

I thought we solved this already? Didn't we merge spell points and sorcery points. remove the spell slots, recalculated the sorcerer's points per level, and change font of magic into "You regain a portion of your maximum sorcery points at the end of a short rest"?

We did indeed.. but let's face it, it's a not-minor rewrite of the class. I guess we're somewhere between, "This is how things should be", and "How can we tweak what we have with minimal effort and maximum benefit?"

Personally I feel like the sorcerer is in a similar place as the ranger: "Why do we need this? What is the class's 'main thing'?" Originally the point was to have a non-Vancian, spontaneous arcane caster. That point no longer exists.

I could see folding sorcerers And warlocks into the wizard class, creating a few subclasses and tweaking for flavor. The divine soul is a theurge subclass; storm and stone and maybe dragon are elementalist subclass.

Just thinking in text..lol

[bendking]

We did indeed.. but let's face it, it's a not-minor rewrite of the class. I guess we're somewhere between, "This is how things should be", and "How can we tweak what we have with minimal effort and maximum benefit?"

Personally I feel like the sorcerer is in a similar place as the ranger: "Why do we need this? What is the class's 'main thing'?" Originally the point was to have a non-Vancian, spontaneous arcane caster. That point no longer exists.

I could see folding sorcerers And warlocks into the wizard class, creating a few subclasses and tweaking for flavor. The divine soul is a theurge subclass; storm and stone and maybe dragon are elementalist subclass.

Just thinking in text..lol

My latest preference for a tweak is Sword Meow's.
I took his Sorcerer Tweaked and tweaked it a bit more, removing the extra sub-classes and returning the old ones to their form, this is the result (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-Ll0XRA_GkXeV31HG-6B).
I'm curious as to what others here might think, to be honest.

TL;DR: Added Origin Bonus Spells, added a new metamagic at levels 6, 14, 17, and added Self Focus (Eschew Materials).

[Vogie]

I thought we solved this already? Didn't we merge spell points and sorcery points. remove the spell slots, recalculated the sorcerer's points per level, and change font of magic into "You regain a portion of your maximum sorcery points at the end of a short rest"?

I mean, that's what my Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?592791-Sorcerer-Revisited-PEACH)is, up until that last part.

Sorcerers should be Long Rest casters. I added the ability to gain minor amount of mana (sorc/spell points) back on crits & kills, but I think the only way you should get resources back on short rest is by hitting the capstone (or dipping into warlock and using flexible casting to crack them). RAW sorcerers would need 3 levels of 'lock to get the same amount of mana from the pact magic slots in comparison to Capstone (2 2nd-level spells for 4 points / rest), and my sorcerer increases that to 5 levels (2 3rd-level spells for 6 points / rest)

[Kane0]

I thought this thread was about coming up with some sorcerer specific spells.

[Bjarkmundur]

Sorcerers should be Long Rest casters.

Well, compare that with Paladinn's response.


Personally I feel like the sorcerer is in a similar place as the ranger: "Why do we need this? What is the class's 'main thing'?" Originally the point was to have a non-Vancian, spontaneous arcane caster. That point no longer exists.

That's the thing. We kinda need a new niche. A half-short-half-long caster is a way to do that. Many seemt to see the sorcerer as some kind of magical powerhouses. That dream is hard to realize, since a long-rest caster with high power level is going to take the 5-minute adventuring day problem to a whole new level. But by granting a medium sized resource and allowing to trickle back is a good way to moderate a high-power low-versatility class. It also walks a fine line between the Warlock's "my boss gave me this grenade. If I use it I'm going to have to ask for another one" and the wizard's "I KNOW ALL THE SPELLS, but when I'm done casting I get tired and need to rest". It's a "I don't know many spells, but my BLOOD IS RADIOACTIVE WITH MAGICAL POWERS".


I thought this thread was about coming up with some sorcerer specific spells.

I actually think that's a much more interesting thread topic. Let's go with that one! So, just create a spell that has a "if you spend x sorcery points this spell also does y"? Isn't that what the sorcerer does already, but instead uses wizard spells and metamagic? Or are we thinking spells with sorcerer-specific flavor?

How about a Nitro-from-X-men style nuke? Can we do that? Like, you explode, but your hit point maximum is reduced until you succeed on a DC 12 Constitution check made at the end of a long rest? You know how in video games you often get a very strong attack way before you should get it, but it deals self-damage as a trade-off.

[Kane0]

Taking a queue from pokemon and the like, what about a bunch of short duration, bonus action self buffs?
Allure: advantage on cha checks/saves
Payday: create GP that lasts one minute
Toxic: creatures attacking you take poison damage
Agility: raise Dex
Mimic: use reaction to copy attack that hits you
Light screen: resistance to force/radiant/necrotic damage
Focus energy: raise spell DC

So on and so forth. Upcast using SP instead of higher spell shots.

Could be plenty of blasty spells in there too but thats easy to pick out.

[loki_ragnarock]

So I have slept since my last reply, and that really helps the thoughts congeal a little better.


Bouncing off from where I'd previously been, my main problem with the Sorcerer is on the strategic level. 12 spells known. OP wants specific spells for the sorcerer spell list. Limited choices for metamagic. OP wants specific spells for the sorcerer spell list. Sorcerers have a constricted spell list. OP wants specific spells for the sorcerer spell list.

Easy Peasy, Lemon Squeezy. Or complex spell hex, concept is wrecked.

We’ll see.

1. 12 Spells Known.
So in 5th edition there's really only one spell that emulates other spells: Wish. But in 3rd edition there was a plethora of them. Shadow Evocation. Shadow Conjuration. Limited Wish. Okay, maybe not a plethora, but greater shadow evocation and conjuration also existed, which does beggar 5th edition for spells that pull double or triple duty.

So why not reintroduce that concept, but exclusive to the Sorcerer Spell List? They don't get a lot of versatility in spells, so why not spells with a lot of versatility?

The same reason you can't do anything nice for anyone's spell list. The Bard. Those thieving magpies put rogues to shame. We can't have them benefitting from spells of startling versatility, because that's already their schtick. So gating it somehow seems appropriate to actually keep it exclusive. And what do Sorcerers have that Bards don't have?
Sorcery points. Not only does it discourage bards, but it serves as a potential balance to the newfound versatility the sorcerer has found. Complex formatting would surely follow.

An example of the concept? Don't mind if I do.

Spell Name: Subjugate
1st level Enchantment
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 60ft
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 Round
With a word and gesture the sorcerer imposes their will on a person. When you cast this spell with a first level spell slot, one target that can see, hear, and understand you will spend their next round performing a one word action you utter. If the target succeeds at a wisdom saving throw, the spell has no effect.
When you cast it with a second level spell slot and spend two sorcery points, you can command a course of action of one or two sentences and the duration becomes concentration.
When you cast it with a third level spell slot and spend three sorcery points, you can paralyze a humanoid creature and the duration increases to concentration 1 minute. The target may make a new save against the effect at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on a success.
When you cast it with a fourth level slot and spend four sorcery points, the duration increases to concentration 1 minute and you charm a humanoid creature. While the creature is charmed you may issue an order to it every round, which it follows to the best of its abilities. It may attempt a new wisdom save every time it takes damage.
When you cast it with a fifth level spell slot and spend five sorcery points, you can paralyze a creature of any type, the duration increases to concentration 1 minute, and the target no longer needs to understand you. The target may make a new save against the effect at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on a success.
When you cast with a sixth level spell slot and spend six sorcery points, the duration increases to concentration 1 minute and you can charm any creature. While the creature is charmed you may issue an order to it every round, which it follows to the best of its abilities. The creature need not understand your orders, it simply follows them. It may make a new saving throw every time it takes damage, ending the effect on a success.


Okay. A spell that nets you a greatest hits of enchantment, gated behind a resource that denies it to non sorcerers, at the cost of not being able benefit of from the additional effects of upcasting.
Also, I just realized that I made the mystic class. Ha.
Worth it.

2. Metamagic Access
Since my problem with Sorcerer is the strategic layer, the prospect of using their tactical resources to enhance it seems like a good idea. So a spell that temporarily grants access to more metamagic options seems like a fair exchange. Bards can’t steal it, because having access to metamagic without sorcery points is a smidge pointless.

Spell Name: Hocus Pocus Trance
2nd level Transmutation
Casting Time: 1 Bonus Action
Range: Personal
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 minute
When you cast this spell, choose two metamagic options that you don’t already have. For the duration of this spell, you may use them as if you had them. Further, while under the effects of this spell, casting spells as a bonus action does not preclude you from casting spells as an action.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell as a 4th level spell, you may apply the effects of two metamagics to a given spell, even if you normally couldn’t, for the duration of the spell. For every two levels beyond 4th, you may apply an additional extra metamagic to a spell.

This spell lets someone pull a few extra metamagics as needed at the cost of a valuable spells known (A strategic resource) and a spell slot (a tactical resource.) Honestly, it’s maybe too good, in that it would become an automatic pick for most sorcerers. But that’s okay, I think; a class exclusive spell should probably be one of the ones you want. Regardless, it makes me happy by solving what I think is a problem.


Imma take a break and re-examine the idea again.

[loki_ragnarock]

1. 12 Spells Known.
But maybe, just maybe, a greatest hits of a specific school isn't the only way to go about it.

What does a person want out of a spell? They don't want hold person, they just want the target paralyzed. They don't want dominate person; they just want an enemy to be forced onto their side.

So an alternative spell of many types maybe looks something more like this:

Spell Name: Excoriate
1st level Enchantment
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30ft
Components: V
Duration: 1 minute, concentration.
With a word, the sorcerer can cut to the very core of a person's psyche. Target one creature within 30ft. That creature must make a Wisdom Saving throw. On a success, nothing happens. If they fail, they take 3d4 psychic damage and gains Effect: (Suffers disadvantage on attack rolls) for the duration. A target that fails it's save gets a new save at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on a success.
You may spend sorcery points (SP) when you cast this spell to change the effect portion of the spell.
1 SP: Apply the Charmed, Frightened, Blinded, or Deafened conditions
2 SP: Apply Incapacitated Condition
3 SP: Apply the Stunned Condition
4 SP: Apply the Paralyzed Condition
5 SP: Target spends it's action attacking a creature of your choice.
You may also spend 1 SP to change the save from Wisdom to Intelligence or Charisma.
You may also spend 2 SP to deal the initial damage to the target again on your turn as a bonus action until the effect ends.
At Higher Levels: Each level above 1st, increase the damage dealt by the spell by 2d4 and increase the range by 10ft.

Bards probably wouldn't want Excoriate: a little bit of damage without even the consolation of a save for half and a base condition that's just a slightly upgraded vicious mockery seems like a poor use of magical secrets.
But for a sorcerer? Having a spell that allows you to slap on the condition of choice adds a lot of flexibility for their actions and their choices for the other 11 spell slots.

But sometimes you just want to damage a bunch of things in an area of effect. Yet with only twelve spells known, even if it's your thing, needing a bunch of different spells for various damage types and area types will eat into your extremely limited spells known resources. So why not something that can scratch that itch without taking more than half of your total spells known to do it?

This might do it.

Spell Name: Obliterate
1st level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Special
Components: V, S
Duration: Instant
With a word and a gesture, the sorcerer causes all hell to break loose. When casting this spell, choose a damage type: Acid, Lightning, Fire, or Cold. Choose an area: 15ft cone; 30ft long, 5ft wide line; or a 5ft radius sphere within 30ft. All creatures in the area must make a Constitution saving throw. Those that fail take 3d6 damage of the chosen type, and those that succeed take half damage.
By spending Sorcery Points (SP), some of the features of this spell can be changed.
1 SP: Change the type of saving throw from Constitution to Strength or Dexterity.
1-3 SP: Raise the damage die to the next higher type per point spent, to a maximum of 3 SP and a d12.
5 SP: The duration changes from "Instant" to "1 minute: concentration." The first time on a turn a creature enters the are or starts its turn in the area, it makes a new save or is dealt damage by this spell again.
At Higher Levels: For each level higher than the 1st, add one extra die of damage and increase the area as follows: +10ft per level for cones, +15ft per level for lines, +5ft per level radius and extra 10 range for spheres.

So this would still add a lot of versatility for a bard that wanted to steal it, but without sorcery points it doesn't scale very well and targets a typically strong save. With Sorcery Points, it can target a variety of saves, scales significantly better, and can even emulate punishing wall type spells at a cost. As a balance, dedicated spells still hit larger areas; cone of cold, fireball, lightning bolt all hit a larger area and do more damage at an equivalent spell level, but the sorcerer gets the benefit of flexibility.


EDIT
I might have some other ideas, but I really need to make tacos or my girlfriend will break up with me or die of starvation. As the end result is about the same, tacos it is!

[loki_ragnarock]

Tacos Delivered.

Okay, these last few sets of spells have been radical departures from regular spell design. Which I'm okay with; the argument that people give when discussing sorcerers vs wizards is usually something along the lines of "you can't expect a sorcerer to play like a wizard." Working in a design space that would be unique to sorcerers is just leaning in to that idea; sorcerers are different from wizards, and their unique spells should reflect that mechanically.

Chaos Bolt is the only Sorcerer exclusive spell that I know of, and it is fairly hot garbage; there's nothing about it that makes you think "This is definitely a sorcerer thing." It scales poorly, it's extremely finicky to use in play, and it doesn't even play well with all metamagic. Insult to injury; Chromatic Orb is just better, simpler, and oddly plays better with metamagic. Not even sorcerers have a reason to pick up their one unique spell. Lame.

I think the OP is fundamentally right; sorcerers need better spells. Spells that take advantage of their being sorcerers, that differentiate them from other casters. Spells that take into account the unique limitations of being a sorcerer. Spells that don't create ambiguity in their compatibility with their unique strengths. Spells that may actually provide them with unique strengths.
Which is probably beyond me, honestly. It's a tall order. But that's why playing a weirdish design space seems okay to me right now.

My only regret is that it should have been called Hocus Pocus Focus. Missed opportunity there.

Moving along:

Spell Name: Discorporate
1st level Conjuration
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30ft
Components: S
Duration: Instant
Passing through the folds of reality with a gesture, the sorcerer appears where once he wasn't. When you cast this spell, you may teleport to a square that you can see.
Sorcery Points may be spent to change characteristics of the spell.
1 SP: Range in feet is multiplied by 10.
3 SP: Range is measured in miles instead of feet.
5 SP: Range is unlimited, but must remain on the same plane of existence.
1 SP: Destination does not need to be one that you can see, but must be one you've seen before.
3 SP: Destination square may be any square, regardless of whether you've seen it, so long as you've some knowledge of it.
X SP: For every creature you take with you, pay 1 SP. They appear in a space adjacent to you.
3 SP: Target one unwilling creature. If they fail a Charisma save, they discorporate and reincorporate in any square that fits the parameters of the spell.
At Higher Levels: Every spell level above first adds 30 ft to the range of the spell.

[Sindal]

Only thing is that if they get unique spells they need a couple extra known spells. Just so it doesn't become a situation that sorcerors more or less only pick the unique sorcerer spells and come out rather samey.

[Bobthewizard]

These are all neat ideas. I think it would be easier to make adjustments to metamagic than to the spells. No need to worry about other classes stealing it. The changes I would make would be to make careful act as the wizard's sculpt spells and to allow a second spell if you use quicken, but increase them both by 1 SP. I'd also change elemental affinity for draconic sorcerers. I'd love to hear other ideas too.

Careful - When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell's full force. To do so, you spend 2 sorcery points and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeed on its saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save.

Quickened - When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 3 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting. When you cast this spell with a bonus action, you can still cast another spell with an action on that turn.

Elemental Affinity - Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, add your Charisma modifier to that damage once for each target. At the same time, you can spend 1 sorcery point to gain resistance to that damage type for 1 hour.