Gestalt Barbarian + Warlock

[MishimaRyu]

Hello guys!
Hope you all are doing great.


If you allow me a little bit of despair: heeeeeeeeeeeeelp!!!!
Jokes aside (I'm not that desperate), I'm having trouble creating a barbarian-warlock gestalt. Aasimar race (preferably by game theme - no level adjustment) or human (as a second option). Point buy 32 points. Prestige classes are not available.


I imagine the best use of this combination is a melee character, so glaivelock or clawlock sounds the best options.
Since Barbarian has a good save of Fortitude and Warlock has a good save of Will, I thought of focusing the character on Dexterity to compensate for bad Reflexes and improve AC a little bit. But... some questions came up and went unanswered:
Do Weapon Finesse or Two-weapon Fighting apply to the concept of clawlock or glaivelock?
Which would be the best choice (claw or glaive)?
Can I create claw or glaive and then enter Rage?

I am not necessarily focused on creating a character with high damage ability; but the visual design is very interesting to me (a ****ing no-one that is hard to kill and just materializes his weapons and get his ****s done one way or another - the "hardo to kill" part would be for AC and high hit points).




Extra question: If I change the character's concept and choose to increase my damage, can Sneak Attack's damage be added to Eldritch Blast's damage?

[Venger]

warlock handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?252715-The-New-Warlock-Handbook-3-5-WIP)
barbarian handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?105525-3-5e-Being-Bane-Eldariel-s-Guide-to-Barbarians)

give 'em a look for the basics and they'll help you get an idea of what you might like to do.

what sources are allowed? eldritch claws are from dragon magazine. can you incorporate any dragon magazine content?

what's your op level?

what level is this character?

how much free LA do you get?

they would apply, but they don't synergize well.

it depends on what you're allowed as sources and what you're trying to do

yes

eldritch blast is weaponlike, so yes, precision damage applies normally.

[Ellyth]

Rage is going to interfere with invocations, unfortunately (they require concentration). That doesn’t have to stop you, but be aware of it up-front. That nixes eldritch glaive—though really, it wasn’t going to work very well anyway, as it doesn’t benefit from rage much at all (nor does it benefit much from various alternative rages—i.e. no bonus attack from whirling frenzy).

Eldritch Claws, on the other hand, are not technically an invocation. Awesome, that will work very well. I note that the city brawler variant class feature from Dragon #349 gives a barbarian the Improved Unarmed Strike feat nearly for free, and you will qualify for Beast Strike from Dragon #355, which is pretty great. Snap Kick from Tome of Battle starts looking very good at that point.

Weapon Finesse works with claws, and while Two-Weapon Fighting does not, it does work with unarmed strikes (... at least, with a reasonable DM), and with Beast Strike technically what you are making are unarmed strikes. Conveniently, city brawler also gives Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat (limited to unarmed strikes, but that’s just fine with us!). If you go with Weapon Finesse and Dexterity, you may want to use the ferocity variant rage from the Cityscape web enhancement, though whirling frenzy is probably still better. It might not be if you really push it though, since you could combine Weapon Finesse with Shadow Blade from Tome of Battle (unarmed strike is associated with Shadow Hand) for Dex being really strong for you. With even moderate Dex, Combat Reflexes looks really nice.

Of course, you should take the lion spiritual totem from Complete Champion. I probably would also take the wolf tribe totem from Unearthed Arcana, though uncanny dodge is pretty good and you won’t have reach so Improved Trip isn’t as good as it could be. Also, while you have Dragon #349 out, take a look at dashing step and devil’s luck: those are both great for you. Dashing step is pure win, since you’ll be charging and you won’t be sensing traps, and devil’s luck gives a scaling bonus to all saves instead of scaling DR—which is a win, because the DR is way too tiny to make much difference.

Eldritch Claws + Beast Strike scales hard with unarmed strike damage. You may want to seriously consider multiclassing the warlock side with unarmed swordsage (Tome of Battle), or monk (I guess), or possibly either side with battledancer (Dragon Compendium)—it’s not great, but it’s got full BAB, it uses Charisma, and it improves unarmed strike damage. The Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle again) and/or Improved Natural Attack feats might be good alternatives, or in combination. For that matter, Martial Study and Martial Stance are just good ideas in general (more Tome of Battle!). You probably want mountain hammer, for example, and either island of blades or thicket of blades would be amazing. Nothing comes to mind for accomplishing it, but if you come across any opportunities to increase your size, you should. (If you weren’t already settled on your race, I would strongly suggest goliath from Races of Stone here.)

Aside from your offense, you probably want to focus on long-lasting invocations that you can cast before raging—fell flight is a gimme, of course, but flee the scene isn’t as good as it might otherwise be. Dark One’s own luck pairs very neatly with the devil’s luck feature from barbarian. Also, keep in mind that Eldritch Claws are incompatible with eldritch essences or blast shapes, and you can’t cast eldritch blast while raging anyway, so don’t bother with those.

Rage can also provide utility. Blazing Berserker and Frozen Berserker from Sandstorm and Frostburn is very strong defensively when you have both. With ferocity, or with Instantaneous Rage from Complete Warrior, you can ensure you’re never without those benefits, too. Intimidating Rage (Complete Warrior) is great, too, particularly with Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark) and Never Outnumbered (Complete Scoundrel)—put that warlock Charisma to use!

Actually, while we’re on the subject of Charisma... have you considered a life as a paladin of freedom or slaughter? A couple levels gets you divine grace, which is... the best defensive ability in the game, I think? Second only to, ya know, spells. Nothing says terrifying monster like shrugging off everything people try to use to slow you down.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It won't really work with Eldritch Glaive, as it only lasts until the start of your next turn and you can't activate it while raging. However, Eldritch Claws are a free action, so even though they also only last a single round, they shouldn't require any sort of concentration so you should be able to use them while raging. However, you'll want to ask your DM to be sure.

Eldritch Claws are treated as natural weapons so you'll get two attacks, but no extra attacks for a high BAB. They benefit from anything that increases your unarmed strike damage, so a Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike are recommended. For a Dex-focused build you'll also want Shadow Blade, which requires a Shadow Hand stance, since it can be used to add your Dex bonus to your unarmed strike damage. Get Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) instead of the standard rage.

I'd probably go with a mix of Swordsage and (Wolf Totem) Barbarian on one side and all Warlock on the other. It's a shame you can't use prestige classes, as one of the best things to gestalt with Warlock is Enlightened Spirit in CM, since everything it grants stacks with what you'd get from Warlock levels. Something like Swordsage 1/ Barbarian 2/ Swordsage 2/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Swordsage 5// Warlock 20 would be perfect, spending a few feats on Extra Rage.


You can definitely use sneak attack with anything that requires an attack roll, provided you can meet the requirements for delivering a sneak attack for that type of attack (ranged or melee, that is). For gaining sneak attack damage on a gestalt Warlock build, it depends on what else you want to get out of it. A simple Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) + Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) gets full BAB and d10 HD, but not many skill points or class features. Rogue or preferably Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) with Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for flanking gets a lot more skills but less combat ability. Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) gets fewer sneak attack dice but some pretty good utility powers, plus the amazing mind cripple special ability at 11th level. I'd go with the Thug Fighter and include the Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels (reflavored if needed) for some fantastic intimidate tricks. Still get Wild Cohort for a war-trained riding dog as a reliable flanking partner.

[MishimaRyu]

warlock handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?252715-The-New-Warlock-Handbook-3-5-WIP)
barbarian handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?105525-3-5e-Being-Bane-Eldariel-s-Guide-to-Barbarians)

give 'em a look for the basics and they'll help you get an idea of what you might like to do. I had read these handbooks before (a long time ago; but I'll reread warlock to refresh memory, as most of my questions apply to EB)



what sources are allowed? eldritch claws are from dragon magazine. can you incorporate any dragon magazine content? This question is hard to answer, as my DM tends to leave things to decide based on what they present rather than where they were printed.



what's your op level?
what level is this character?I have no idea what op level is, I'm sorry. But the character level is 6.
By default I create all character progression from 1 to 20 (ignoring magic items); so I already know what it will look like in the end and what investments to make and when.



how much free LA do you get?Actually, none. DM simply put Aasimar as LA +0, due to some scenario stuff (which we'll only know when the game starts).




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Rage is going to interfere with invocations, unfortunately (they require concentration). That doesn’t have to stop you, but be aware of it up-front. That nixes eldritch glaive—though really, it wasn’t going to work very well anyway, as it doesn’t benefit from rage much at all (nor does it benefit much from various alternative rages—i.e. no bonus attack from whirling frenzy).Alternative class is on the table, only to non-gestalt characters (I know, weird mechanics). But since I rolled my options, I'm stuck with it (warlock and gestalt). In other words: default Barbarian.



Eldritch Claws, on the other hand, are not technically an invocation. Awesome, that will work very well. I note that the city brawler variant class feature from Dragon #349 gives a barbarian the Improved Unarmed Strike feat nearly for free, and you will qualify for Beast Strike from Dragon #355, which is pretty great. Snap Kick from Tome of Battle starts looking very good at that point.If this variant only gives Improved Unarmed Strike, maybe I can get DM's blessing to use it.



Weapon Finesse works with claws, and while Two-Weapon Fighting does not, it does work with unarmed strikes (... at least, with a reasonable DM), and with Beast Strike technically what you are making are unarmed strikes. Conveniently, city brawler also gives Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat (limited to unarmed strikes, but that’s just fine with us!). If you go with Weapon Finesse and Dexterity, you may want to use the ferocity variant rage from the Cityscape web enhancement, though whirling frenzy is probably still better. It might not be if you really push it though, since you could combine Weapon Finesse with Shadow Blade from Tome of Battle (unarmed strike is associated with Shadow Hand) for Dex being really strong for you. With even moderate Dex, Combat Reflexes looks really nice.Sorry, I didn't understand what you said about Two-weapon Fight.
First you said it doesn't work with Claw, but then you say it works with Unarmed.
But isn't clawlock basically unarmed + ED?



Of course, you should take the lion spiritual totem from Complete Champion. I probably would also take the wolf tribe totem from Unearthed Arcana, though uncanny dodge is pretty good and you won’t have reach so Improved Trip isn’t as good as it could be. Also, while you have Dragon #349 out, take a look at dashing step and devil’s luck: those are both great for you. Dashing step is pure win, since you’ll be charging and you won’t be sensing traps, and devil’s luck gives a scaling bonus to all saves instead of scaling DR—which is a win, because the DR is way too tiny to make much difference.To put it short: I'm in love with City Brawler. :biggrin:



Eldritch Claws + Beast Strike scales hard with unarmed strike damage. You may want to seriously consider multiclassing the warlock side with unarmed swordsage (Tome of Battle), or monk (I guess), or possibly either side with battledancer (Dragon Compendium)—it’s not great, but it’s got full BAB, it uses Charisma, and it improves unarmed strike damage. The Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle again) and/or Improved Natural Attack feats might be good alternatives, or in combination. For that matter, Martial Study and Martial Stance are just good ideas in general (more Tome of Battle!). You probably want mountain hammer, for example, and either island of blades or thicket of blades would be amazing. Nothing comes to mind for accomplishing it, but if you come across any opportunities to increase your size, you should. (If you weren’t already settled on your race, I would strongly suggest goliath from Races of Stone here.)Sorry, my bad, but multiclass isn't allowed (nor prestige class). That makes gestalt so...... interesting. Although it did not gain the improvements that the other classes had.



Aside from your offense, you probably want to focus on long-lasting invocations that you can cast before raging—fell flight is a gimme, of course, but flee the scene isn’t as good as it might otherwise be. Dark One’s own luck pairs very neatly with the devil’s luck feature from barbarian. Also, keep in mind that Eldritch Claws are incompatible with eldritch essences or blast shapes, and you can’t cast eldritch blast while raging anyway, so don’t bother with those.If necessary, I can simply end Rage. Fatigued does not prevent concentration after all.



Rage can also provide utility. Blazing Berserker and Frozen Berserker from Sandstorm and Frostburn is very strong defensively when you have both. With ferocity, or with Instantaneous Rage from Complete Warrior, you can ensure you’re never without those benefits, too. Intimidating Rage (Complete Warrior) is great, too, particularly with Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark) and Never Outnumbered (Complete Scoundrel)—put that warlock Charisma to use!

Actually, while we’re on the subject of Charisma... have you considered a life as a paladin of freedom or slaughter? A couple levels gets you divine grace, which is... the best defensive ability in the game, I think? Second only to, ya know, spells. Nothing says terrifying monster like shrugging off everything people try to use to slow you downI also thought of focusing on the charisma as the damage would be with the Eldritch. But that would already require three staatus (DEX, CON and CHA). As I am still trying to consolidate the character, distributing the attributes will be for later.
City Brawler's suggestion fit the idea of the character PERFECTLY. Thank you so much for introducing her! I will try to work on her (which already saves me two feats).




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It won't really work with Eldritch Glaive, as it only lasts until the start of your next turn and you can't activate it while raging. However, Eldritch Claws are a free action, so even though they also only last a single round, they shouldn't require any sort of concentration so you should be able to use them while raging. However, you'll want to ask your DM to be sure.With two people saying, I no longer have doubts. Glaive is out!



Eldritch Claws are treated as natural weapons so you'll get two attacks, but no extra attacks for a high BAB. They benefit from anything that increases your unarmed strike damage, so a Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike are recommended. For a Dex-focused build you'll also want Shadow Blade, which requires a Shadow Hand stance, since it can be used to add your Dex bonus to your unarmed strike damage. Get Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) instead of the standard rage.It's a shame not to have extra attacks (with high BAB), but... style speaks louder than combo!



You can definitely use sneak attack with anything that requires an attack roll, provided you can meet the requirements for delivering a sneak attack for that type of attack (ranged or melee, that is). For gaining sneak attack damage on a gestalt Warlock build, it depends on what else you want to get out of it. A simple Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) + Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) gets full BAB and d10 HD, but not many skill points or class features. Rogue or preferably Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) with Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for flanking gets a lot more skills but less combat ability. Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) gets fewer sneak attack dice but some pretty good utility powers, plus the amazing mind cripple special ability at 11th level. I'd go with the Thug Fighter and include the Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels (reflavored if needed) for some fantastic intimidate tricks. Still get Wild Cohort for a war-trained riding dog as a reliable flanking partner.Damn!!! SA + EB really looks tempting... hahaha

[MishimaRyu]

Eldritch Claws, on the other hand, are not technically an invocation. Awesome, that will work very well. I note that the city brawler variant class feature from Dragon #349 gives a barbarian the Improved Unarmed Strike feat nearly for free, and you will qualify for Beast Strike from Dragon #355, which is pretty great. Snap Kick from Tome of Battle starts looking very good at that point.If this variant only gives Improved Unarmed Strike, maybe I can get DM's blessing to use it.Well... I just talked to my DM.
CITY BRAWLER IS ON THE TABLE!!!!!! :biggrin:

[Venger]

This question is hard to answer, as my DM tends to leave things to decide based on what they present rather than where they were printed.
well, that's certainly the correct way to decide on banned material. it's unfortunately common when people post stat me threads to neglect to mention that their gm has banned everything. dragon magazine is usually not allowed because of the content being unbalanced and the difficulty of accessing back issues, but if you only need one or two things, it shouldn't matter. ask specifically about what you want so we know whether you're doing clawlock or what


I have no idea what op level is, I'm sorry. But the character level is 6.
By default I create all character progression from 1 to 20 (ignoring magic items); so I already know what it will look like in the end and what investments to make and when.
how optimized is your table? is the game easy or hard? does your gm throw really powerful monsters at you, or weak ones? are the other members of your party playing good classes or bad classes?


Actually, none. DM simply put Aasimar as LA +0, due to some scenario stuff (which we'll only know when the game starts).
Ok, so that race specifically is la0? why i'm asking is if you just generally have a free +1, you can probably find something that synergizes better than aasimar, but if it's just aasimar, that certainly won't hurt you. you might actually be better off going with lesser aasimar so you can enlarge yourselves with enlarge person if you want to be a brute.

[MishimaRyu]

well, that's certainly the correct way to decide on banned material. it's unfortunately common when people post stat me threads to neglect to mention that their gm has banned everything. dragon magazine is usually not allowed because of the content being unbalanced and the difficulty of accessing back issues, but if you only need one or two things, it shouldn't matter. ask specifically about what you want so we know whether you're doing clawlock or whatI'll try to make a clawlock. I'm doing it rigth now. I'll share my sheet soon.



how optimized is your table? is the game easy or hard? does your gm throw really powerful monsters at you, or weak ones? are the other members of your party playing good classes or bad classes?For a change, I decided to make a character that is not focused on doing brutal damage and deleting the enemy right away. My warmage already does something like this (incantatrix, arcane thesis, blablabla, fireball that does almost 1k damage in large area). After a while it gets boring. =/
For this game we have the idea of each player creating their character in secret, preventing a player from simply assuming a role that no one wanted (like being forced to play cleric when no one wanted to do one).
That said ... I'm sure certain individual choices will be more obvious (for example, I rolled the dice and got gestalt and warlock, but I decided the barbaric part of the character - and I usually play a lot as barbarian, monk or rogue, then the group would expect my character being one of that class).



Ok, so that race specifically is la0? why i'm asking is if you just generally have a free +1, you can probably find something that synergizes better than aasimar, but if it's just aasimar, that certainly won't hurt you. you might actually be better off going with lesser aasimar so you can enlarge yourselves with enlarge person if you want to be a brute.For now the idea is to be a DEX-based character. So enlarge is visually opposite to that.

[Troacctid]

warlock handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?252715-The-New-Warlock-Handbook-3-5-WIP)
barbarian handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?105525-3-5e-Being-Bane-Eldariel-s-Guide-to-Barbarians)

give 'em a look for the basics and they'll help you get an idea of what you might like to do.
Okay, I'm actually a little offended that you quoted that out-of-date handbook instead of my Warlockopedia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?577317-The-Warlockopedia-A-Comprehensive-Warlock-Handbook). MishimaRyu, check out my novel handbook, it's extremely comprehensive and should have more information than you will ever need.


I imagine the best use of this combination is a melee character, so glaivelock or clawlock sounds the best options.
Since Barbarian has a good save of Fortitude and Warlock has a good save of Will, I thought of focusing the character on Dexterity to compensate for bad Reflexes and improve AC a little bit. But...
If you want to focus on Dexterity, you should definitely not use barbarian as your other class. The primary class feature of the barbarian boosts your Strength. It would be quite a waste. Even moreso considering that rage turns off your invocations. You could make it work with Eldritch Claws or with Supernatural Transformation (eldritch blast) if your DM allows it (invocations are noted in several places as being innate spell-like abilities, so they should be eligible). However, barbarian is a frontloaded class that falls off in power quickly, so being stuck taking 20 levels of it is extremely undesirable. Especially if you can't use alternative class features. (City brawler is of course excellent, but you would also badly want spirit lion totem and streetfighter (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).)

Paladin, ranger, rogue, psychic rogue, marshal, incarnate, totemist, or any Tome of Battle class would be a more synergistic choice. The multiclassing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CQ7sA64GiD_Ja5bXO3RpmTJoTCyJ2sIATCyIRwx7AN8/edit#heading=h.gm82l76836xj) section of my warlock handbook might be useful.


Extra question: If I change the character's concept and choose to increase my damage, can Sneak Attack's damage be added to Eldritch Blast's damage?
Yes. It's a great combo. One of the better ways to boost damage on a warlock. Plus, half the extra damage will carry over to the secondary targets of an eldritch chain, even if you only qualified for a sneak attack against the primary target.

[MishimaRyu]

Okay, I'm actually a little offended that you quoted that out-of-date handbook instead of my Warlockopedia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?577317-The-Warlockopedia-A-Comprehensive-Warlock-Handbook). MishimaRyu, check out my novel handbook, it's extremely comprehensive and should have more information than you will ever need.Thanks! I really enjoyed the feat-section. ^^



If you want to focus on Dexterity, you should definitely not use barbarian as your other class. The primary class feature of the barbarian boosts your Strength. It would be quite a waste. Even moreso considering that rage turns off your invocations. You could make it work with Eldritch Claws or with Supernatural Transformation (eldritch blast) if your DM allows it (invocations are noted in several places as being innate spell-like abilities, so they should be eligible). However, barbarian is a frontloaded class that falls off in power quickly, so being stuck taking 20 levels of it is extremely undesirable. Especially if you can't use alternative class features. (City brawler is of course excellent, but you would also badly want spirit lion totem and streetfighter (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).)

Paladin, ranger, rogue, psychic rogue, marshal, incarnate, totemist, or any Tome of Battle class would be a more synergistic choice. The multiclassing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CQ7sA64GiD_Ja5bXO3RpmTJoTCyJ2sIATCyIRwx7AN8/edit#heading=h.gm82l76836xj) section of my warlock handbook might be useful.Yeah, I know that this is not the most (nor the least) optimized build. But I'm following an weird idea about style. haha



Yes. It's a great combo. One of the better ways to boost damage on a warlock. Plus, half the extra damage will carry over to the secondary targets of an eldritch chain, even if you only qualified for a sneak attack against the primary target.The character is not ready yet, in fact is far from ready.
A standard rage dexbarbarian is already limiting enough, and adding warlock doesn't make it easy, since most skills are not DEX based.
If the end result doesn't please me, Sneak Attack will be!

[Ellyth]

You seemed to misunderstand what I was saying with Eldritch Claws and Beast Strike.

Eldritch Claws gives you a pair of claws, natural weapons, and so are not unarmed strikes, don’t benefit from things like extra attacks from high BAB or two-weapon fighting, and so on. You just get two attacks and that’s it, maybe three with whirling frenzy.

However, Beast Strike allows you to make an unarmed strike attack, and add your claw damage to the hit. Now the attacks you are making are actually unarmed strikes, and not claw attacks—so you get to use iteratives from BAB, two-weapon fighting, and so on. Also, since your claw damage with Eldritch Claws is equal to unarmed strike damage plus eldritch blast damage, and your unarmed strikes now add your claw damage to them, your unarmed strikes now do 2×(unarmed strike damage) + eldritch blast damage. So that makes bonuses to unarmed strike damage twice as valuable for you. (Which is good, because usually they’re overpriced; doubling their value makes them much more reasonable.)

So definitely you want to combine city brawler with Beast Strike; otherwise, city brawler does nothing for your Eldritch Claws.