[Build Guide] So You Want To Play A Succubus

[HorizonWalker]

So, you want to play a Succubus. I'm not judging, I swear- I'm writing this guide because I also wanted to play as one. And it's with this lack of judgement that I want you to understand this next question: "Why do you want to play a Succubus?" I'm not asking to try to discourage you, really. I'm asking because I want you to think about what parts of a Succubus you most want your character to emulate.


PART 1: What about the default Monster Manual Succubus?

The short version is, you don't want to play as that, trust me. The long version is, it has six Racial Hit Dice and a Level Adjustment of +6. That means your Succubus character will have 33 hit points at the same time your party is facing enemies with a Challenge Rating of 12 on a regular basis. As a randomly selected example, your Succubus is expected to participate in a fight against, say, a Cloud Giant(CR 11, 178 HP) and do fairly well, rather than, say... either win initiative and run away or die messily in the first round of combat.

And that is why you can't just play the Monster Manual Succubus and be done with it. If it was that easy, I wouldn't be writing this guide. So, now that we've established why the default isn't appealing, let's start exploring some alternatives.



PART 2: The Basic Bargain-Bin Build

Now, obviously what we're about to make in this section isn't technically a Succubus. However, it looks like a Succubus and does some of the things you'd expect from a Succubus, so if anyone gives you any lip for simply calling it a Succubus, they're the one who's wrong, here.

Step one, you're going to want to get your hands on the Eberron Campaign Setting sourcebook, and take a look at the Changeling race. For those unfamiliar, the Changeling is the result of interbreeding between Doppelgangers(psychic shapechangers) and Humans. Changelings retain the shapechanging ability of Doppelgangers, and a few other minor psychic-like perks, but are otherwise quite similar to Humans. The fluff/flavor text around Changelings talks about how they're often considered untrustworthy, and frequently adopt a trickster type role, and their abilities reflect this rather neatly.

Now, if you want, you can just stop here. You can say "yep, that's a Succubus alright," and just play as a default, vanilla Changeling that you call a Succubus instead. You don't have to deal with anything like Level Adjustments or Racial Hit Dice, and can just play D&D normally. But, if that's not enough for you, we can keep going. We can make your Succubus even more Succubus-like.

Step two. Lay hands upon a copy of Nymphology. Warning, this book is extremely Not Safe For Work. Gratuitous nudity and sexual content abounds. Google it at your own risk. Inside this book is a template called "Creature of Lust." In essence, just as the "Fiendish Creature" template turns a normal creature into one that was born in Hell, this template turns one into a creature born on the Plane of Lust.

How this template relates to creating a Succubus should be fairly obvious. The most relevant part of the template for our purposes is the Ability Modifiers; Creatures of Lust gain a +2 to Constitution and Dexterity, and a +4 to Charisma. They also gain the Outsider type, the Endurance feat, and a special attack that most DMs will probably nix due to a lack of mechanical effects, which I will discuss no further. And, this is key: the Creature of Lust template applies no Level Adjustment whatsoever.

And that brings us to the conclusion of this section. We currently have a trickster-like shapechanger from the Plane of Lust, with unnaturally high Charisma. If you only really wanted that part of the Succubus, and wanted to build other stuff on top of that, you can stop here. But if you want your Succubus to be even more Succubus-like... read onwards.



PART 3: A Classy Lady

The Succubus has a few important and iconic abilities beyond being a sexy shapeshifter. Let's explore those abilities, and see how we can replicate them.

FLIGHT: Succubi have wings, and while it could be considered secondary, there's also the fact that being able to fly is just a valuable ability, and is worth pursuing even without lore reasons. There's a few ways of getting your hands on the ability to fly.

Option 1: Be a 5th level Wizard or 6th level Sorcerer, and cast the spell Fly. It works and is incredibly straighforward, but it's also boring and limited; every 3rd level spell slot you spend on Fly is a spell slot you're not spending on something potentially more effective.

Option 2: Be a 6th level Warlock(found in the book Complete Arcane), and take Fell Flight as your first Lesser Invocation. This works fine, and is always-on, just like having wings. And, given that you want to play as a Succubus, it's a safe bet that you're playing as a Warlock already.

Option 3: Undergo the Dragonborn Rite of Rebirth(found in the book Races of the Dragon), and select the Wings aspect. Becoming a Dragonborn of Bahamut does not necessarily negate being a Changeling; it does make some significant changes to your character beyond giving you wings, most notably giving you a +2 CON, -2 DEX adjustment and taking away your Outsider status you gained from Creature of Lust and turning you back into a Humanoid, but if you apply the templates in a different order(which you should probably talk to your DM about, making it clear that you're not powergaming, you're trying to build a specific flavor into your character), then you can retain your Outsider type if you really want to.

Option 4: Buy a magic item that grants flight. Boring, but serviceable.

ENERGY DRAIN: It's a well known fact that a Succubus is capable of stealing your life force with a kiss, and it's also a well-known fact that inflicting Negative Levels is a perfectly viable tactic for ruining your enemy's day.

Option 1: Fell Drain, from Libris Mortis, is a metamagic feat that makes damaging spells inflict a Negative Level on top of whatever damage they caused. By default, Fell Drain increases the spell level of spells it's applied to by +2. Usually, this is fine; slap it on a few damaging Cantrips and now you've got 2nd level spells that inflict Negative Levels. If that isn't fine, take the Easy Metamagic feat, from Dragon Magazine #325, which will reduce the increase on Fell Drain to +1. (Important note: Easy Metamagic only does this to one specific feat, chosen when you take Easy Metamagic.) Just keep in mind, you only get one feat every three levels, and you might want to do something with them besides draining energy. Also keep in mind that this only works if you're playing an actual spellcaster, like Wizard, Sorcerer, or Beguiler(found in the Player's Handbook 2), and will do nothing for a Warlock.

Option 2: If you want to play a Warlock and you also want to inflict negative levels... that's trickier. Well, "tricky" is the wrong word. Warlocks get fairly straightforward and uncomplicated access to level drain effects in the same book that introduces them. The only problem is that Utterdark Blast, the only invocation that does this, is a Dark invocation. Meaning, you get access to it at Level 16 at the earliest. I don't expect anyone to take this option, but I'm including it anyways for the sake of completeness.

Option 3: In the book Libris Mortis, there's an option laid out for becoming a free-willed Vampire Spawn. It will take eight levels- and you have to take all eight of them- and generally be pretty expensive just for that one thing you want, but you do, in fact, get energy draining pretty much at will.

Option 4: Look into the Magic Item Creation rules, and try to sweet-talk your DM into letting you get your hands on a magic item that gives you a touch-attack energy drain. A Wizard making one such item with only the Fell Drain feat would produce it at a base price of 12,000 gold, but with the Easy Metamagic feat, they'd produce it at a base price of 2,000 gold. This is entirely dependent on DM approval, and you should be prepared for them saying no.

Option 5: Take one level in the Soul Eater prestige class, from the Book of Vile Darkness. This requires a Base Attack Bonus of +5(Warlocks and Bards qualify after 7th level. Wizards and Sorcerers qualify after 10th level), and two feats that won't really do much for you. However, it gives you an incredibly straightforward and faithful energy drain touch attack, just like a real Succubus. Thanks to Venger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24053508#post24053508) for pointing this one out!



CHARM: Sometimes a pretty face isn't enough, and a Succubus is never too proud to resort to magical assistance. This ability is quite useful, in addition to being core to being a Succubus.

Option 1: If you're playing a Warlock, you can take Beguiling Influence, a Least Invocation which gives you a flat +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. Later on, you can switch it out for Charm, a Lesser Invocation, which works nearly identically to the default Succubus' Charm Monster at-will ability. Simple and straightforward, although you don't get access to Suggestion.

Option 2: Play as a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Beguiler, and use the spells Charm Person, Suggestion, and Charm Monster. Passable, if a bit boring, and you don't get unlimited usage, either.

Option 3: Play as a Bard. Bards have a number of options for charming people; in addition to the obvious Charisma-based spellcasting that contains Charm Person, Suggestion, and Charm Monster, you can use Bardic Music to cast Suggestion for free on creatures that failed their Will save versus Fascination.

Option 4: Say it with me, kids: buy a magic item that does it. I'm only including these here as a reminder that you don't necessarily have to have all of the Succubus' features built-in. You can get them as part of your gear and then ignore the fact that it's your gear that lets you do that.

PART 4: Sample Builds
Talk is all well and good, but it'd be remiss of me to not show my work, so to speak. I'm not going to do a full 20-level progression for each build, because when's the last time anyone here played a game that got that far, anyhow? Instead, I'm going to drop my milestone at Level 6, which is, I think, a much more reasonable marker, and also enables you to use these in E6 campaigns. I'm also going to be using the Elite Array, which is always a reasonable baseline for player characters. For equipment, I'm going to be using a budget of 13,000 gold pieces, which is the DMG's Wealth-By-Level entry for Level 6.

BUILD #1: Original Flavor

Race: Changeling of Lust. Type: Outsider(Lust, Shapechanger)

Stats: STR 8, CON 12, DEX 16, CHA 22, WIS 12, INT 13. Unadjusted: STR 8, CON 10, DEX 14, CHA 15, WIS 12, INT 13. From Creature of Lust: +2 CON, +2 DEX, +4 CHA. From Cloak of Charisma: +2 CHA. From level-up: +1 CHA.

Class: Warlock 6

Invocations Known: Least: Beguiling Influence, Dark One's Own Luck, Earthen Grasp, Entropic Warding, See The Unseen. Lesser: Charm, Fell Flight.

Feats: Extra Invocation(Earthen Grasp), Extra Invocation(See The Unseen), Extra Invocation(Fell Flight)

Equipment: Chasuble of Fell Power(8,000 GP), Cloak of Charisma +2(4,000 GP), Chain Shirt(100 GP), 900 GP worth of whatever other miscellaneous gear you want.

This here is the bog-standard Succubus, able to do most of what one would want a Succubus to do, and only missing the energy drain. It's completely straightforward, and has some nice tricks up its sleeve that aren't necessarily Succubus-like, and can therefore be traded out for other things you want more without much worry.



BUILD #2: Stupid Sexy Succubus Sorcerer

Race: Changeling of Lust. Type: Outsider(Lust, Shapechanger).

Stats: STR 8, CON 12, DEX 16, CHA 22, WIS 12, INT 13. Unadjusted: STR 8, CON 10, DEX 14, CHA 15, WIS 12, INT 13. From Creature of Lust: +2 CON, +2 DEX, +4 CHA. From Cloak of Charisma: +2 CHA. From level-up: +1 CHA.

Class: Sorcerer 6.

Spells Known: 0th: Prestidigitation, Touch of Fatigue. Fill in the remaining four slots with whatever else you want in there, including replacing Touch of Fatigue with some other cantrip that does damage if your DM won't let you apply Fell Drain to it. 1st: Charm Person, Grease, Hypnotism, Summon Monster 1. 2nd: Alter Self, Invisibility. 3rd: Suggestion.

Feats: Fell Drain, Easy Metamagic(Fell Drain), Spell Focus: Enchantment.

Equipment: Cloak of Charisma +2(4,000 GP), whatever else you wanna buy with 9,000 GP; the Sorcerer isn't very dependent on magic items, so really you can do whatever. Maybe buy some Knowstones of spells you want but don't know. Like Fly, or Summon Monster 3, or Summon Undead 3.

This Sorcerer is capable of being a Succubus, as well as being other things for when being a Succubus isn't quite applicable, and you need a Sorcerer instead. However, it's up to you to get good at being a Sorcerer; this guide isn't about that.



BUILD #3: "Wait, I thought you were supposed to be a Succubus, what's this Dragonfire Inspiration stuff?"

Race: Dragonborn Changeling of Lust. Type can be either Outsider(Dragonblooded, Lust, Shapechanger) or
Humanoid(Dragonblooded, Lust, Shapechanger).

Stats: STR 8, CON 14, DEX 14, CHA 20, WIS 12, INT 15. Unadjusted: STR 8, CON 10, DEX 14, CHA 13, WIS 12, INT 15. From Creature of Lust: +2 CON, +2 DEX, +4 CHA. From Dragonborn of Bahamut: +2 CON, -2 DEX. From Cloak of Charisma: +2 CHA. From level-up: +1 CHA.

Class: Bard 6.

Spells Known: 0th: Detect Magic, Fine-Tuning, Fleeting Fame, Prestidigitation, Silvered Weapon, Summon Instrument. 1st: Charm Person, Grease, Inspirational Boost Spell. 2nd: Alter Self, Invisibility, Suggestion.

Feats: Words Of Creation(Book of Exalted Deeds), Song of the Heart(Eberron Campaign Setting), Dragonfire Inspiration(Dragon Magic).

Equipment: Cloak of Charisma +2(4,000 GP), Chain Shirt(100 GP), Masterwork Instrument(100 GP), and 8,800 GP of whatever else you want to buy.

Building a Bard that emulates a Succubus isn't particularly difficult. If you want to play it straight, just replace all the feats here with the feats in the Sorcerer build, and maybe cut out Dragonborn of Bahamut. This specific Bard, however, is a bit more... unique. First and foremost is the feat Words of Creation, which is an Exalted feat, and therefore requires your character be Good-aligned. That isn't a tall order for the typical Succubus player character; they're usually Good-aligned, even if only because the DM wouldn't let them play an Evil character. The next feat, Song of the Heart, increases your Inspire Courage bonus by 1. And Dragonfire Inspiration(which uses your Dragonblood subtype) replaces every +1 bonus Inspire Courage grants with 1d6 Fire damage. Alright, so, when Dragonfire Inspiration comes online, you're granting a 2d6 Fire damage to your allies' attacks. That's cool, but what else? Well, if you cast Inspirational Boost, it becomes 3d6 Fire damage. And finally, if you use Words of Creation, it explicitly doubles your Inspire Courage bonus, bringing you up to 6d6 Fire damage.

6d6 Fire damage is, incidentally, the same amount of damage the Wizard or Sorcerer can do with their Fireball at this level, which they only get two or three of per day at the most. You can do this all day long, and attach it to some other, already potent damage source- if you've got a stereotypical Two-Sworded Sneak-Attacking Rogue in the party, their potential damage output goes from 8d6 per round to 20d6 per round.

(This somewhat breaks my "No Powergaming" rule, but to be honest, I'm only really including this because it looks cool.)



PART 5: Where Do I Go From Here?

Well, obviously, play some D&D. Try not to be a creep about the fact you're playing as a Succubus, though. That's probably the first stumbling block that will make your DM say "no, I changed my mind, you cannot play as a Succubus."

As for how you level up your character past this point, you can just keep taking levels in whatever class you started with... or you could try doing some funky build shenanigans. One prestige class you should definitely check out is the Eldritch Theurge from Complete Mage, which advances your Warlock abilities and your Arcane Spellcaster abilities at the same time. If you want the always-on/at-will capabilities of the Warlock plus the powerful one-shot abilities of a spellcaster, it's not a bad way to go.

Another thing to look into is the feat Lost Tradition, from the book Bastards and Bloodlines. This allows you to replace the spellcasting stat of one particular class with any stat in particular; most often, for you, it'll be Charisma. You can use this for Wizard, which is a bit more versatile than Sorcerer, but I think a better use would be using it for Ur-Priest(Complete Divine), a prestige class that grants you Cleric spells at an accelerated rate. While it's not quite germane to the Succubus flavor, it does neatly mirror the progression of the Succubus into the Lilitu, a Demon found in the Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss, which is explicitly called out as an advanced Succubus. It's also generally a pretty powerful option; Cleric Spellcasting isn't quite as good as Sorcerer Spellcasting, but it is still pretty solid. And, if you get into it via Warlock, you can also take the Eldritch Disciple prestige class from Complete Mage, which advances Warlock and Divine Spellcasting.

Aside from that... It's up to you, really. Go out there, roll some dice, suck someone's soul out, and most importantly, have fun.


(If you have any ideas that you think should be included in this guide, post 'em down below and I'll include them here along with a link to your post.)

[HorizonWalker]

(Reserved post in case I ever outgrow the first one)

[Saintheart]

One suggestion, which admittedly is not terribly powerful and which might involve some reworking of stuff here but which might work as a progression on from a bard-entry "Succubus", particularly one who's good-aligned -- the Celebrant of Sharess PrC out of Forgotten Realms. Doesn't have a lot of spells, but the Fascinate, Suggestion, and Inspire Desire effects are very flavourful. I also like the Sanctuary (Sp) effect she has - basically, cast Sanctuary on all your allies using your Perform check as the Will DC for the opposition. Once you've got to 7 in the PrC (i.e. level 11), at the minimum entry level of Bard 4, assuming you're pumping Perform, it's a Perform check of at least 1d20+14 before you factor in CHA-raising devices, masterwork items and the like. Not a bad extra shield for the party caster I would have thought.

It's not ideal of course. Your spell list drops to a bard-ish selection, they slot in a Pounce, Haste, and a Rage which don't make a lot of sense for the bards who normally qualify for the class; there's no spellcasting qualifications, so I guess a Fighter type or some sort of Bardadin could qualify, but the suite of abilities is probably okay for a low-op game where the DM isn't throwing especially powerful monsters at you?

[Venger]

Soul eater is a relatively straightforward way to get energy drain

[HorizonWalker]

One suggestion, which admittedly is not terribly powerful and which might involve some reworking of stuff here but which might work as a progression on from a bard-entry "Succubus", particularly one who's good-aligned -- the Celebrant of Sharess PrC out of Forgotten Realms. Doesn't have a lot of spells, but the Fascinate, Suggestion, and Inspire Desire effects are very flavourful. I also like the Sanctuary (Sp) effect she has - basically, cast Sanctuary on all your allies using your Perform check as the Will DC for the opposition. Once you've got to 7 in the PrC (i.e. level 11), at the minimum entry level of Bard 4, assuming you're pumping Perform, it's a Perform check of at least 1d20+14 before you factor in CHA-raising devices, masterwork items and the like. Not a bad extra shield for the party caster I would have thought.

It's not ideal of course. Your spell list drops to a bard-ish selection, they slot in a Pounce, Haste, and a Rage which don't make a lot of sense for the bards who normally qualify for the class; there's no spellcasting qualifications, so I guess a Fighter type or some sort of Bardadin could qualify, but the suite of abilities is probably okay for a low-op game where the DM isn't throwing especially powerful monsters at you?

It's very fitting for a particular flavor of Succubus character, specifically the sort where the core idea is "I'm not just a Succubus, I'm also a deadly warrior." The ability to use dirty talk to initiate bardic music is also fitting for just about any Succubard.

However, the mechanics themselves, like you've mentioned, don't really fit the Succubard all that well. This PrC, mechanically, doesn't give you anything a Succubus needs that a Bard doesn't already do just as well, if not better, and the things it does give you(Rage, Pounce, Haste) aren't things that really fit a Succubus.

I think probably the most important thing to keep in mind here is that for the most part, the fluff isn't all that important. This build already starts off as a templated Changeling that I explicitly say you can just call a Succubus instead, we're no strangers to reskinning stuff here. What we're really on the lookout for, here, is abilities that mechanically do the sort of thing we'd want a Succubus to be able to do- things like Shapeshifting, Charm magic, flying, stealth stuff, and stealing people's life force.

I will say, though: thanks for bringing the deity Sharess to my attention. That's some pretty decent fluff right there: maybe your Good-aligned Succubus is Good-aligned because she decided that the Good-aligned goddess of sex was a better patron than the Demon Prince Killmonger or whoever, or alternatively, the Good-aligned goddess of sex decided to be a copycat and just make her own Succubi who were exactly the same, except for being evil. (That could also explain the lack of an Energy Drain, if you don't have one. Sharess didn't give you one, because she disapproves of it.)

EDIT:

Soul eater is a relatively straightforward way to get energy drain

Thanks, I'll add that to the post.

[ekarney]

While I doubt I'll ever use this guide (Other people in my group prefer to be face much more than I do), I genuinely do love that you've made this, it's an interesting niche concept, and I do honestly think it's really cool that this is like an actual available resource now.

[StevenC21]

Uuhh... So.. your guide to play a Succubus... Is "use Homebrew"?

[Crake]

Now, obviously what we're about to make in this section isn't technically a Succubus. However, it looks like a Succubus and does some of the things you'd expect from a Succubus, so if anyone gives you any lip for simply calling it a Succubus, they're the one who's wrong, here.

This is where you lost me. Paint a horse with black and white stripes and call it a zebra all you like, it's still not a zebra, and I'll call you out on it if I see you trying to pass it off as one all I like. There's a limit to what I as a DM and player can accept for "refluffing", and this is way beyond it. The character you describe is, at best, someone inspired by a succubus, but ultimately a cheap imitation.

The level drain for example, has no way to emulate the suggestion portion of a succubus' energy drain, one that can apparently bypass the normal "reasonable suggestion" part of allowing the victim to automatically pass, a normal suggestion spell definitely wouldn't allow someone to keep letting themselves be level drained.

As for how to play a true succubus? Yeah, that cloud giant? You'd be stupid to go at him head on. Why not.... I dunno, charm him? As a PC you'd have PC ability score generation, so you'd likely have at least a 32 in charisma, hit them with a DC25 charm monster vs their +10 will save, bam, you've got a new ally. Or, if you don't want to play cards with chance, with your 3 feats, pick up a couple of binder feats to allow you to bind naberious and get silver tongue. With max ranks in diplomacy, +6 synergy from nobility, bluff and sense motive, and +11 charisma, you can hit +26, silver tongue allows you to make a rushed diplomacy with take 10 as a standard action with no penalty, that's an automatic 36 on your diplomacy check, which lets you turn hostile enemies friendly with what amounts to a wink and a smile.

Basically, if you're trying to play a succubus as a head on combat character, it's not the character that's got the problem, its your method of playing the character that's the problem.

[StevenC21]

Or just use Inevitability's LA's, so the Succubus isn't a flaming pile of trash.

[Crake]

Or just use Inevitability's LA's, so the Succubus isn't a flaming pile of trash.

Not everyone can pawn off what essentially boils down to "some random's opinion on the internet" as acceptable to their DM, especially so if their DM doesn't even read these forums. The irony of this statement is that you previously stated "So.. your guide to play a Succubus... Is "use Homebrew"? " when this is practically the exact same advice.

[StevenC21]

Asking to use the Community consensus on what a creatures LA should be is a far better idea then "hey can I use some random NSFW third party sourcebook that nobody on Oerth has heard of before?"

[HorizonWalker]

Uuhh... So.. your guide to play a Succubus... Is "use Homebrew"?
No, there is no homebrew here. Everything in this guide is in published sourcebooks. Yes, I encourage you to refluff a few things, but that's not really homebrew.


This is where you lost me. Paint a horse with black and white stripes and call it a zebra all you like, it's still not a zebra, and I'll call you out on it if I see you trying to pass it off as one all I like. There's a limit to what I as a DM and player can accept for "refluffing", and this is way beyond it. The character you describe is, at best, someone inspired by a succubus, but ultimately a cheap imitation.
It's not identical to the Monster Manual's Succubus, but I'd like to remind you that Gary Gygax didn't invent the Succubus, and the Monster Manual's version is simply one of many valid interpretations of the concept. The interpretations I presented here are different, sure, but they're also, I think, quite reasonable.

As for the horse/zebra thing, using the statblock for a light horse to represent a zebra is a completely reasonable thing to do in D&D 3.5. I don't know why you think that isn't.

The level drain for example, has no way to emulate the suggestion portion of a succubus' energy drain, one that can apparently bypass the normal "reasonable suggestion" part of allowing the victim to automatically pass, a normal suggestion spell definitely wouldn't allow someone to keep letting themselves be level drained.
Yeah, sure, I can't get that one specific detail of the Monster Manual's Succubus in a normal build, but... so what? Is it really that important to you?

As for how to play a true succubus? Yeah, that cloud giant? You'd be stupid to go at him head on. Why not.... I dunno, charm him? As a PC you'd have PC ability score generation, so you'd likely have at least a 32 in charisma, hit them with a DC25 charm monster vs their +10 will save, bam, you've got a new ally. Or, if you don't want to play cards with chance, with your 3 feats, pick up a couple of binder feats to allow you to bind naberious and get silver tongue. With max ranks in diplomacy, +6 synergy from nobility, bluff and sense motive, and +11 charisma, you can hit +26, silver tongue allows you to make a rushed diplomacy with take 10 as a standard action with no penalty, that's an automatic 36 on your diplomacy check, which lets you turn hostile enemies friendly with what amounts to a wink and a smile.

You and the Cloud Giant have equal Initiative bonuses. If he goes first, he wins. If he has friends, then those friends kill you in the first round because you can only charm one monster at a time. High level combat is dangerous if you're not properly equipped to survive it.

There's also, of course, the fact that you're playing D&D, and you're playing it with other people, too. Either you have something in your toolbox to deal with combat, which is kinda at the core of the game, or you spend a lot of the playtime just sitting there, waiting for everyone else to be done with the combat.

EDIT:

Asking to use the Community consensus on what a creatures LA should be is a far better idea then "hey can I use some random NSFW third party sourcebook that nobody on Oerth has heard of before?"
I did say at least once that you could just play a Changeling and call it a Succubus. I never said you had to include Nymphology material. I just brought it up because it's not unreasonable that you might want to, and also not unreasonable to assume someone might not have thought of it themselves.

As for playing as a Monster Manual Succubus with a reduced Level Adjustment or even no Level Adjustment, that's way more workable, but still presents a few problems. Problem 1: Only playable from Level 6 and up. A lot of games start at Level 1, and any character concept that can't start there is automatically going to see a lot less play than one that can. Problem 2: How do you advance the Succubus from there? Do you use it as the basis for a mediocre to ineffectual Bard, Warlock, or Sorcerer? Do you take levels of Paladin? No matter what you take, it's not going to properly advance and build on the MM Succubus chassis. It's going to be bolting new stuff onto the side of that chassis, and rather importantly, most of that new stuff isn't going to be level-appropriate. Color Spray is a great spell at 1st level, but it's not going to see much use at 7th.

[Crake]

Asking to use the Community consensus on what a creatures LA should be is a far better idea then "hey can I use some random NSFW third party sourcebook that nobody on Oerth has heard of before?"

While some may agree, it still ultimately boils down to "Use homebrew", and a lot of DMs aren't interested in using homebrew no matter who came up with it.

[StevenC21]

No, there is no homebrew here. Everything in this guide is in published sourcebooks. Yes, I encourage you to refluff a few things, but that's not really homebrew.


I was referring to the "Nymphology" book. Third party is no better than Homebrew.

[Crake]

It's not identical to the Monster Manual's Succubus, but I'd like to remind you that Gary Gygax didn't invent the Succubus, and the Monster Manual's version is simply one of many valid interpretations of the concept. The interpretations I presented here are different, sure, but they're also, I think, quite reasonable.

If you're using this as a DM, then you'll need to manage your players' expectations, however, and this is far more likely since this guide seems aimed at players, if you are a player, then you don't get to make the decision on what is and is not a succubus.


As for the horse/zebra thing, using the statblock for a light horse to represent a zebra is a completely reasonable thing to do in D&D 3.5. I don't know why you think that isn't.

That was a metaphor that goes beyond dnd. Note I mentioned the use of paint, and not refluffing?


Yeah, sure, I can't get that one specific detail of the Monster Manual's Succubus in a normal build, but... so what? Is it really that important to you?

When I play and run succubi... Uhh, yeah, it actually is. It's their most iconic ability, and that part of it is pretty much entirely what lets them get away with it, because their victims don't realise it's happening until it's far too late.


You and the Cloud Giant have equal Initiative bonuses. If he goes first, he wins. If he has friends, then those friends kill you in the first round because you can only charm one monster at a time. High level combat is dangerous if you're not properly equipped to survive it.

Succubi can be practically permanently ethereal and can greater teleport at will, there's pretty much no excuse for being ambushed, and barring an enemy spellcaster, you should pretty much always get a surprise round.


There's also, of course, the fact that you're playing D&D, and you're playing it with other people, too. Either you have something in your toolbox to deal with combat, which is kinda at the core of the game, or you spend a lot of the playtime just sitting there, waiting for everyone else to be done with the combat.

Correct, and for the same reason that a paladin doesn't work in every single game, neither does a succubus. If the other players want to play a combat-heavy game, then succubus just isn't the right pick, the same way that if the other players want to play a band of morally grey anti-heros, paladin just isn't the right pick.

And, yes, inevitably combat will arise, but as I already demonstrated, succubi have plenty of options to deal with combat, and the majority of them involve making every party involved their friend. If that's not the "cave their heads in" solution you wanted, then again, maybe it's not the succubus that has the issue, but rather the way you want to play it.

[HorizonWalker]

I was referring to the "Nymphology" book. Third party is no better than Homebrew.

That's an... interesting stance to take.

However, I do believe that this third-party sourcebook is more trustworthy than what typically qualifies as homebrew(stuff you'd find on dandwiki or the Homebrew section of this very forum) by virtue of having crossed the somewhat higher barrier to entry that is being published in an actual book rather than on a forum. At the very least, the DM knows with more certainty that you probably didn't write it under a sockpuppet, and thus it isn't a blatant attempt to backdoor in some broken shenanigans. All you're getting from Nymphology is a decent bonus to some stats and changing your type to Outsider, making your character more mechanically like a Succubus. If I was running a game and someone asked to use that template for the purposes of a Charisma-based Wizard with Alter Self shenanigans, I'd tell them no because they're obviously trying to cheese the game and I'd rather they find some more clever ways to do that. But, if they asked because they wanted to build a Succubus character, I'd allow it because that's the concept they want to play, and I want to facilitate the players having a good time.
If you're using this as a DM, then you'll need to manage your players' expectations, however, and this is far more likely since this guide seems aimed at players, if you are a player, then you don't get to make the decision on what is and is not a succubus.
If you're starting a new game, and someone says they want to play a Succubus character, and you say no specifically because their character is not mechanically identical to what's in the Monster Manual, that's unreasonably pedantic. Why won't you let the player say "This is my character who looks and acts like the traditional idea of a Succubus. I've built her out of game-mechanical pieces that aren't specifically labeled Succubus, but she looks and acts like a Succubus, so I would like for all of us to call her a Succubus"? Is it really that important to you that everything be exactly as the rulebook says it is?


When I play and run succubi... Uhh, yeah, it actually is. It's their most iconic ability, and that part of it is pretty much entirely what lets them get away with it, because their victims don't realise it's happening until it's far too late.
I'm not convinced it's as "iconic" as you think it is. It's attached to 3.5's Monster Manual Succubus, sure, but the ability to mind control people specifically while in the act of passion with them isn't really that iconic. Mind-controlling people and draining their lives through passion, yes, those are properly iconic, but the very specific performance of one through the medium of the other, not quite so much. Supposing I was creating a Succubus monster statblock for one of those countless "Like D&D but" games, and I didn't include the part where a Succubus can mind control people as a free action while draining their health, I doubt anyone would cry foul. I think you're just being pedantic.

[Saintheart]

Well, as long as we're talking third party sources as being in the mix, there's always the Book of Erotic Fantasy to consider as well. The Fey Enticer class looks like a good base to build on, or at least a decent PrC. And then there's the Greater Succubus that the book gives us, 12 RHD, but no level adjustment...


...more generally, good grief, how come people don't pull out Metaphysical Spellshaper PrC (page 81-82) more often? 3 level PrC, first level lets you trade off ability damage - to the stat of your choice - for metamagic costs, second level gives you a free metamagic feat, third level reduces all metamagic costs by 1. And it's a full casting PrC! And allows you to ignore having higher level spell slots so long as your primary casting stat is high enough! No erotic activities required, this sucker operates freely without any of BoEF's subsystems by the look of it.

[HorizonWalker]

Well, as long as we're talking third party sources as being in the mix, there's always the Book of Erotic Fantasy to consider as well. The Fey Enticer class looks like a good base to build on, or at least a decent PrC. And then there's the Greater Succubus that the book gives us, 12 RHD, but no level adjustment...
Seeing as this guide is more about executing a specific concept, rather than optimization, I think it's best to include as many options from as many sources as possible. I'm drawing a line at homebrew(unless it's exceptionally well-produced-and-polished homebrew) because if the DM is allowing that, then you can probably just make it yourself and not have to bother looking it up.

As for the Greater Succubus, it's fun and all, but suffers the same issues as the MM Succubus: it's not playable until mid-high levels, and it doesn't have any clear and good options for advancement.

...also, it introduces the problem of forcing your DM to read the Book of Erotic Fantasy, and while that was probably going to happen anyways, what with you playing as a sex demon, it's still a mean thing to do to someone.

...more generally, good grief, how come people don't pull out Metaphysical Spellshaper PrC (page 81-82) more often? 3 level PrC, first level lets you trade off ability damage - to the stat of your choice - for metamagic costs, second level gives you a free metamagic feat, third level reduces all metamagic costs by 1. And it's a full casting PrC! And allows you to ignore having higher level spell slots so long as your primary casting stat is high enough! No erotic activities required, this sucker operates freely without any of BoEF's subsystems by the look of it.
As I mentioned above, the Book of Erotic Fantasy isn't something most people want to think too much about. Or read too closely. But hey, if you want, you can throw up a guide for building a Wizard that out-Incantatrixes the Incantatrix with this PrC and a wand of Restoration or whatever.

[pabelfly]

...more generally, good grief, how come people don't pull out Metaphysical Spellshaper PrC (page 81-82) more often? 3 level PrC, first level lets you trade off ability damage - to the stat of your choice - for metamagic costs, second level gives you a free metamagic feat, third level reduces all metamagic costs by 1. And it's a full casting PrC! And allows you to ignore having higher level spell slots so long as your primary casting stat is high enough! No erotic activities required, this sucker operates freely without any of BoEF's subsystems by the look of it.

1) People generally aren't too keen on third-party materials on these forums. Heck, Dragon Magazine is fairly contentious material and that's material passed through WOTC themselves.
2) From my experience reading third-party materials, they're either weak and thus not worth using, or OP. Looks like you've found an example of the latter.

[Segev]

Honestly, guys? The Creature of Lust template seems like the easiest thing to drop from this build. It would impact it very little in terms of "being a succubus," and without it, there's no third-party material at all.

But still, "Your advice is 'use homebrew?'" as a dismissive sneer is not just unnecessarily nasty, but also disingenuously misleading, because while you might consider third party no better than homebrew, it's still not homebrew. "Use homebrew" carries an implication or connotation that the person making the suggestion is saying you should build it, yourself.

[Telonius]

Here's a build I used in a Villainous Competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19121436&postcount=65) awhile back:

Half-Fiend Changeling Beguiler14/Mindbender1/Fiend of Corruption2

It does require use of the Ritual of Alignment (from Savage Species), which is generally going to be way out of WBL range at the time I had her take it; but as long as you take it before you get the Fiend of Corruption levels, it's fine. It ends up with 7th-level Beguiler spells.

[Grey Guard]

I know Homebrew is a contentious subject at the best of times, but I did like the monster classes project that was done here for a bit. It continued elsewhere. YMMV on their levels of power, but they fit nicely enough for my games.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1104.0

I like what the OP is trying to do, I can appreciate the work that goes into trying to play something iconic like an evil incarnation of illicit sex, but all the hoops required don't make it feel like a succubus. It still can't replicate everything they do perfectly, though, not to say it's not a bad attempt.

[Malphegor]

You could probably go far with a tiefling beguiler with a dip in mindbender, imo for the 'charming spellcasting infernal' character.

For a drain, I dunno, stick a wand of Shivering Touch to your tail I guess.

[Bphill561]

On my cell, so I will try to keep it short.

Savage progressions web enhancements has a level break down for the half fiend template. Not only can you take one level at a time, but you can leave the class without finishing it. There is also a web enhancement on specific half-fiends with different stat layouts. If i remember correctly, they use the succubus as an example with fairly high Cha bonuses (+8) and charm SLA.

Next to avoid some of the level adjustment you can advance the class with uncanny trickster from complete adventurer or the more advance Legacy Champion if you want to go down that road. I often use the uncanny trickster to advance the last two levels of the savage progressions half-dragon template so you only end up with +1 LA.

Feel free to add more templates, but a half-succubus costs you +2 LA with three uncanny trickster levels. It still leaves you 15 levels to go with something like an Bard 1/ fighter 1/ duskblade 2/ Bard 1/ Ur-Prest 10. Regardless of your remaining build, you can make this with the core monster manual web enhancements and complete adventurer (or legacy weapons) which requires no third party.

If playing an actual succubus at higher levels , go into fiend of possession from the fiend folio to never be seen but still continue to corrupt.

[Crake]

If you're starting a new game, and someone says they want to play a Succubus character, and you say no specifically because their character is not mechanically identical to what's in the Monster Manual, that's unreasonably pedantic. Why won't you let the player say "This is my character who looks and acts like the traditional idea of a Succubus. I've built her out of game-mechanical pieces that aren't specifically labeled Succubus, but she looks and acts like a Succubus, so I would like for all of us to call her a Succubus"? Is it really that important to you that everything be exactly as the rulebook says it is?

I suppose it depends on where you're coming from. If you're playing dnd as a board game, then sure, but if you're playing dnd as a simulation, then letting something that isn't a succubus be "a succubus" breaks consistency. A succubus, by definition is a demon, something which your "succubus" is not, thus things that SHOULD affect a succubus, would affect your "succubus", succubi are also literal embodiments of evil and chaos, being Outsiders [Evil, Chaos], which again, your "succubus" is not. The issue arises when an ACTUAL succubus comes into play, and suddenly adheres to different rules to your "succubus". At this point, it becomes apparent that the two are distinctly different things, and thus are not both the same, even if you call them the same, so the question becomes which one is a "real" succubus? Because one is a real succubus, and the other is not.

But, if you're just playing it as a boardgame, with little-to-no care about the inconsistencies introduced by doing things like this, then obviously it doesn't matter, but doing things this way WILL make your games much harder to become simulationist at a later date, should you want to make it so.

So really the question is "Do you care about the inconsistencies this causes?". Clearly you do not, but your claim that "if anyone gives you any lip for simply calling it a Succubus, they're the one who's wrong, here." implies that you believe anyone who cares about inconsistencies in their game is objectively wrong to feel that way.


I'm not convinced it's as "iconic" as you think it is. It's attached to 3.5's Monster Manual Succubus, sure, but the ability to mind control people specifically while in the act of passion with them isn't really that iconic. Mind-controlling people and draining their lives through passion, yes, those are properly iconic, but the very specific performance of one through the medium of the other, not quite so much. Supposing I was creating a Succubus monster statblock for one of those countless "Like D&D but" games, and I didn't include the part where a Succubus can mind control people as a free action while draining their health, I doubt anyone would cry foul. I think you're just being pedantic.

You just said yourself, draining their lives through passion. Soul eaters don't do it through passion, they do it through touch, and yes, you can personally limit it to passion only, but it can still be done through touch should you change your mind at any point. Secondly, the notion of being lost in the passion to the point where you cannot stop yourself is certainly iconic, and the succubus' energy drain is the only thing that I'm aware of that can properly represent this, as a soul eater's ability would instantly incur resistance, wheras a succubus' energy drain would result in, should they fail their save, quite the opposite, instead having a more willing victim.

So if you want to drain your opponent with your "succubus", you need to strong arm them, wheras a traditional succubus would instead seduce their victims. A strongarming succubus certainly isn't very iconic.

[HorizonWalker]

Here's a build I used in a Villainous Competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19121436&postcount=65) awhile back:

Half-Fiend Changeling Beguiler14/Mindbender1/Fiend of Corruption2

It does require use of the Ritual of Alignment (from Savage Species), which is generally going to be way out of WBL range at the time I had her take it; but as long as you take it before you get the Fiend of Corruption levels, it's fine. It ends up with 7th-level Beguiler spells.
While this is perfectly valid, I've made the executive decision to avoid including anything with Level Adjustment in the guide on the grounds that most games start at Level 1, and characters with Level Adjustment simply can't be played at that level.

(I'm also making the potentially unjustified assumption that the reader already knows that "Half-Fiend" is an option.)

I know Homebrew is a contentious subject at the best of times, but I did like the monster classes project that was done here for a bit. It continued elsewhere. YMMV on their levels of power, but they fit nicely enough for my games.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1104.0

I like what the OP is trying to do, I can appreciate the work that goes into trying to play something iconic like an evil incarnation of illicit sex, but all the hoops required don't make it feel like a succubus. It still can't replicate everything they do perfectly, though, not to say it's not a bad attempt.
While I did try to replicate everything the Monster Manual's Succubus did, ultimately that's not entirely the point. The point is to build a character that fits the classic idea of a Succubus, through the lens of D&D. Turning Ethereal, Teleporting, and summoning a Vrock are all nice things to have, sure, but they're not actually staples of the Succubus the way a silver weakness is to Werewolves.

As for the monster class, there was something similar in Savage Species. Both the one you've linked me to and the one in Savage Species has left me unsatisfied, for much the same reason: how do you advance that? What do you do, once the levels run out?

On my cell, so I will try to keep it short.

Savage progressions web enhancements has a level break down for the half fiend template. Not only can you take one level at a time, but you can leave the class without finishing it. There is also a web enhancement on specific half-fiends with different stat layouts. If i remember correctly, they use the succubus as an example with fairly high Cha bonuses (+8) and charm SLA.

Next to avoid some of the level adjustment you can advance the class with uncanny trickster from complete adventurer or the more advance Legacy Champion if you want to go down that road. I often use the uncanny trickster to advance the last two levels of the savage progressions half-dragon template so you only end up with +1 LA.

Feel free to add more templates, but a half-succubus costs you +2 LA with three uncanny trickster levels. It still leaves you 15 levels to go with something like an Bard 1/ fighter 1/ duskblade 2/ Bard 1/ Ur-Prest 10. Regardless of your remaining build, you can make this with the core monster manual web enhancements and complete adventurer (or legacy weapons) which requires no third party.

If playing an actual succubus at higher levels , go into fiend of possession from the fiend folio to never be seen but still continue to corrupt.

The main problem I have with this is that it has any LA at all, meaning you can't play this character at first level.



I suppose it depends on where you're coming from. If you're playing dnd as a board game, then sure, but if you're playing dnd as a simulation, then letting something that isn't a succubus be "a succubus" breaks consistency. A succubus, by definition is a demon, something which your "succubus" is not, thus things that SHOULD affect a succubus, would affect your "succubus", succubi are also literal embodiments of evil and chaos, being Outsiders [Evil, Chaos], which again, your "succubus" is not. The issue arises when an ACTUAL succubus comes into play, and suddenly adheres to different rules to your "succubus". At this point, it becomes apparent that the two are distinctly different things, and thus are not both the same, even if you call them the same, so the question becomes which one is a "real" succubus? Because one is a real succubus, and the other is not.

But, if you're just playing it as a boardgame, with little-to-no care about the inconsistencies introduced by doing things like this, then obviously it doesn't matter, but doing things this way WILL make your games much harder to become simulationist at a later date, should you want to make it so.

So really the question is "Do you care about the inconsistencies this causes?". Clearly you do not, but your claim that "if anyone gives you any lip for simply calling it a Succubus, they're the one who's wrong, here." implies that you believe anyone who cares about inconsistencies in their game is objectively wrong to feel that way.
Okay, this is a minor nitpick, but when someone talks about "D&D as a board game," they usually mean playing it in such a way that only cares about the combat and the crunch surrounding it. This is usually presented in opposition to playing it as a role-playing game, where you pretend to be an elf. Most people who draw a distinction between the two, and profess a love of roleplaying, will be more than happy to let you reskin a Changeling as a Succubus, if that's what you want to do. And most people who play D&D as a tabletop miniatures wargame aren't going to care one way or another, as long as your concept has good stats tied to it and can meaningfully contribute to the fight in some way.

As for introducing inconsistencies, while it's true that the Succubus concepts laid out here in this guide aren't exactly, entirely identical to the Succubus in the Monster Manual, I don't consider that to be "introducing inconsistencies." If you, as the DM, REALLY want to avoid whatever minor inconsistencies there'd be by, y'know, having two different individuals being represented with different stat blocks, then you can just not use the Monster Manual Succubus, and build your own Succubus with this guide when you're introducing a Succubus NPC.

Anyhow. What I ultimately meant by "[...]if anyone gives you any lip for simply calling it a Succubus, they're the one who's wrong, here" is that the person giving the reader any lip is wrong on the grounds that they're an obnoxious pedant. D&D isn't real. It's make-believe. I don't feel like arguing this specific finer point of pretending to be an elf, I just want to get to the pretending part because that's actually fun.

[daremetoidareyo]

Brother, have I got a succubus for you!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23126112&postcount=61

swashbuckler's level 4 dead level seduce to learn secret paired with temple of the twinkling eye for move action bluff checks to learn secrets.

[Crake]

If you, as the DM, REALLY want to avoid whatever minor inconsistencies there'd be by, y'know, having two different individuals being represented with different stat blocks, then you can just not use the Monster Manual Succubus, and build your own Succubus with this guide when you're introducing a Succubus NPC.

Except as an NPC, the DM doesn't have to care about ECL, just CR, and succubi come in at a neglidgible CR 7, so the DM can just use the standard creature. This guide was clearly aimed at players, not DMs, who don't have the power to alter the game world in such a way as to redefine what is what.

[Grey Guard]

While I did try to replicate everything the Monster Manual's Succubus did, ultimately that's not entirely the point. The point is to build a character that fits the classic idea of a Succubus, through the lens of D&D. Turning Ethereal, Teleporting, and summoning a Vrock are all nice things to have, sure, but they're not actually staples of the Succubus the way a silver weakness is to Werewolves.

So, 'classic idea of a Succubus'? So then are you pulling strictly from folklore, and dismissing D&D lore? Because turning Ethereal, Teleporting, summoning a big bad demon as back-up are all part of the classic kit that makes a Succubus in D&D, even in older editions. If we're talking specifically what we can dredge up in folklore, then there's a whole lot of sleep paralysis and later inexplicable pregnancies. Or are we going off of the Zohar and Alphabet of Ben Sira for inspiration? Veering a little close to religious stuff, so probably not.

Looks like we're focusing on the energy drain, though. Fey'ri with the Enervation SLA? :smalltongue:


As for the monster class, there was something similar in Savage Species. Both the one you've linked me to and the one in Savage Species has left me unsatisfied, for much the same reason: how do you advance that? What do you do, once the levels run out?

Yeah, that's the trouble with most monsters, honestly. Sometimes they don't really have a method by which they can advance. The monster class I linked DOES allow its levels to stack with a casting class like Sorcerer or Cleric; though it does it in kind of a funky way that makes most people double-take at the wording. There's also the Lilitu Prestige class for it right underneath it in the next post. So the best way to advance would likely be a spellcaster and/or Lilitu.

The one in the Savage Species doesn't have an easy thing to follow-up on. Probably Rogue for the skills, since you're likely a party face with that crazy Charisma. Maybe 2 levels of Paladin for the saves. Probably not a smart idea to eat +6 LA, though. It's just not worth it.

But yeah, I didn't think I'd get much traction linking homebrew here. Figured I'd at least put it out there.

[Crake]

The one in the Savage Species doesn't have an easy thing to follow-up on. Probably Rogue for the skills, since you're likely a party face with that crazy Charisma. Maybe 2 levels of Paladin for the saves. Probably not a smart idea to eat +6 LA, though. It's just not worth it.

Binder is actually quite a good follow on for succubi. Cha based DCs on abilities, so your DCs will be within acceptable levels due to your insane cha, a wide variety of useful options, and a semi catch-up mechanic with improved binding. Ur-priest, with it's fast spellcasting progression is likewise not a bad option, and with your +4 racial bonus to wisdom, you should be fairly well off there, though if we're allowing for 3rd party splats, I'm almost entirely sure there's a feat out there that lets you change what your casting ability is to charisma instead.

[DdarkED]

The main problem I have with this is that it has any LA at all, meaning you can't play this character at first level.



since when? i thought you could start play with LA as high as you wanted as long as A) the DM approves, B) you and your party are ok with the downsides

[Venger]

since when? i thought you could start play with LA as high as you wanted as long as A) the DM approves, B) your and your party are ok with the downsides

That's not how la works. your ecl is your rhd + your la + your class levels. If your gm says "let's start at level 2" and your friends build level 2 characters with no rhd or la, you cannot take la of 2 or more, because you won't have any room for class levels or rhd. it's impossible.

[pabelfly]

While this is perfectly valid, I've made the executive decision to avoid including anything with Level Adjustment in the guide on the grounds that most games start at Level 1, and characters with Level Adjustment simply can't be played at that level.

(I'm also making the potentially unjustified assumption that the reader already knows that "Half-Fiend" is an option.)

I think a handbook should cover options that aren't as good as top-tier options, or options that are really obvious to discuss their drawbacks.

Interesting to see the various ideas on this thread for such a niche idea. Thanks for the thread, TC

[DdarkED]

That's not how la works. your ecl is your rhd + your la + your class levels. If your gm says "let's start at level 2" and your friends build level 2 characters with no rhd or la, you cannot take la of 2 or more, because you won't have any room for class levels or rhd. it's impossible.

so i cant , lets say, start as a level 1 Tiefling, if everyone else is LA 0 race and also lv 1? i think this is untrue but i am not sure. can you cite me this rule?

[Venger]

so i cant , lets say, start as a level 1 Tiefling, if everyone else is LA 0 race and also lv 1? i think this is untrue but i am not sure. can you cite me this rule?

No. a level 1 tiefling is 1 level + 1 la = 2. your ecl is 2. if your friends are la0 and lvl 1, and the game starts at level 1, you can't play something that would make you higher than that.

[StevenC21]

That's literally what LA is...

[DdarkED]

No. a level 1 tiefling is 1 level + 1 la = 2. your ecl is 2. if your friends are la0 and lvl 1, and the game starts at level 1, you can't play something that would make you higher than that.

i am not higher LV then the party though, ECL is not the same as LV hence why it has its own term. ECL is a derived number that uses LV as part of its equation. as far as i can tell a lv 1 tiefling is BOTH a LV 1 character and a character of ECL 2. both of these things are true.

so again, do you have a citation? or is this opinion? for reference this is my opinion and open to change it if offered a rules quote.

[StevenC21]

Games don't start at "level X". They start at ECL X.

[Crake]

That's not how la works. your ecl is your rhd + your la + your class levels. If your gm says "let's start at level 2" and your friends build level 2 characters with no rhd or la, you cannot take la of 2 or more, because you won't have any room for class levels or rhd. it's impossible.

PGtF (I think) has an optional "negative levels" system, where you essentially can start with "virtual" negative levels that effectively counteract your LA, allowing you to play an LA race at level 1, buying off the virtual negative levels as you reach the appropriate xp milestones. They arent exactly the same as negative levels, only reducing certain rolls, and not covering things like CL or hp reduction iirc, mostly just giving a blanket -1 to practically every D20 roll you make.

But that said, there's nothing stopping a DM from allowing an LA race to start with a group of other level 1 characters, and they all start at 0xp. They will start off at a higher ECL, but it'd be no different really than gaining a template midway through the game and having to trudge through a few levels without actually gaining anything. I believe neverwinter nights 2 actually did this, allowing players to start play as a drow, but not gaining anything until they hit "level" 4, at which point they would get to level 2.

[HorizonWalker]

i am not higher LV then the party though, ECL is not the same as LV hence why it has its own term. ECL is a derived number that uses LV as part of its equation. as far as i can tell a lv 1 tiefling is BOTH a LV 1 character and a character of ECL 2. both of these things are true.

so again, do you have a citation? or is this opinion? for reference this is my opinion and open to change it if offered a rules quote.

Your level adjustment counts as part of your overall "level." A Tiefling with a single level in Rogue is a Level 2 character: one level for being a Tiefling, and one level for being a Rogue.

(Of course, you're free to ignore this at your table. You always are. But I can't really write advice for that, so I mostly ignore it.)

[DdarkED]

Games don't start at "level X". They start at ECL X.

its great that your making an assertion, i am sure you believe it to be true, i however need a citation otherwise i believe my own assertion to be true. otherwise LA races are even MORE restrictive then i originally believed:

[DdarkED]

Your level adjustment counts as part of your overall "level." A Tiefling with a single level in Rogue is a Level 2 character: one level for being a Tiefling, and one level for being a Rogue.

(Of course, you're free to ignore this at your table. You always are. But I can't really write advice for that, so I mostly ignore it.)

ECL is NOT the same as LV. how can ECL = LV, when ECL = LV + LA + HD? those both cant be true logically speaking

[Crake]

its great that your making an assertion, i am sure you believe it to be true, i however need a citation otherwise i believe my own assertion to be true. otherwise LA races are even MORE restrictive then i originally believed:

Well, the DMG says the following:


As you can see, many monster characters are inappropriate for parties of 1st-level adventurers. You may choose to allow them anyway, assuming that the party’s encounters grant fewer experience points to higher-level characters, allowing the rest of the party to catch up in level. Alternatively, you may ask players to wait until the rest of the party reaches the monster character’s ECL before the monster character enters play.

[DdarkED]

Well, the DMG says the following:

that quote is indeed insightful, however monsters and playable races are not exactly the same thing.

i am not sure how applicable that is.

i do understand there is some crossover between monsters as PC's and LA adjusted PC races however, and thus this rule seems reasonable.

[Venger]

i am not higher LV then the party though, ECL is not the same as LV hence why it has its own term. ECL is a derived number that uses LV as part of its equation. as far as i can tell a lv 1 tiefling is BOTH a LV 1 character and a character of ECL 2. both of these things are true.

so again, do you have a citation? or is this opinion? for reference this is my opinion and open to change it if offered a rules quote.

It's not opinion, it's basic counting.

ECL, or the level of the party is equal to RHD + LA + levels.

a level 1 fighter of an la0 race with no hd = ecl 1
a level 1 tiefling = ecl 2.

they can't, by raw, play in the same party. parties are all supposed to start at the same ecl.


its great that your making an assertion, i am sure you believe it to be true, i however need a citation otherwise i believe my own assertion to be true. otherwise LA races are even MORE restrictive then i originally believed:
la races are restrictive. they give you extra powers, and in exchange, many of them penalize you by raising your ECL with la. what exactly did you think la did? just gave you free powers?

[Crake]

that quote is indeed insightful, however monsters and playable races are not exactly the same thing.

i am not sure how applicable that is.

i do understand there is some crossover between monsters as PC's and LA adjusted PC races however, and thus this rule seems reasonable.

In the section being referred to, anything with LA is considered a "playable race".

[DdarkED]

In the section being referred to, anything with LA is considered a "playable race".


i see.

so the only rule is DM's discretion on how they treat it? would you conclude that starting as a LA x race in a LA 1 game is legal if the DM does not object?

[DdarkED]

la races are restrictive. they give you extra powers, and in exchange, many of them penalize you by raising your ECL with la. what exactly did you think la did? just gave you free powers?



i thought they changed how much experiance it cost you to gain levels.

example is a LA 1 races needs 3000 XP instead of 1000 XP to attain LV 2. so no not powers for FREE but for the HIGH initial cost of slowed progression (and yes i know xp is a river hence the word initial)

[DdarkED]

It's not opinion, it's basic counting.



so no rules quote? so just your opinion then? :)

[Segev]

so no rules quote? so just your opinion then? :)

I'm honestly not sure what point you think you're making, here. Do you think that arguing that an ECL 15 character is "only level 1" will somehow allow that character into level 1 D&D games?

[DdarkED]

I'm honestly not sure what point you think you're making, here. Do you think that arguing that an ECL 15 character is "only level 1" will somehow allow that character into level 1 D&D games?

no, im arguing that in every game i have ever played with multiple dm's and well as PC titles like NWN 2 , you can start the game as a LA X race and adventure with LA 0 races by paying for it through slowed LV advancement? and all i have asked for is one rules citation to prove i am mistaken, which instead people just assert i am mistaken. if i am mistaken it should be ezpz to cite the the rule imho and i would happily change my stance.

to clarify i mean things like Drow, tiefling other normal LA 1+ playable races without any RHD

[Segev]

no, im arguing that in every game i have ever played with multiple dm's and well as PC titles like NWN 2 , you can start the game as a LA X race and adventure with LA 0 races by paying for it through slowed LV advancement? and all i have asked for is one rules citation to prove i am mistaken, which instead people just assert i am mistaken. if i am mistaken it should be ezpz to cite the the rule imho and i would happily change my stance.

to clarify i mean things like Drow, tiefling other normal LA 1+ playable races without any RHD

There's no rule against what you're saying, just as you'll find no rules saying you can't play a level 15 character in a party with level 1 characters.

[DdarkED]

There's no rule against what you're saying, just as you'll find no rules saying you can't play a level 15 character in a party with level 1 characters.


i am not sure how this is the same thing.

i also cant seem to understand the constant conflation of ECL LA and LV. to be clear none of these words can be used interchangeably. they mean different things even if they intrinsically are linked.

i would never try to play a LV 15 char with LV 1's, that is in no way the same as play a LA 1+ race with LA 0 races. is it similar in some ways? yes. is it different? yes

starting with Levels OR RHD inflates Saves/HP/BaB, LA does None of that.

the only similar thing between RHD LA and Levels is they all increase your ECL which is a determining factor in other areas, like xp gain/encounter difficulty.

i Posit that Mixed LA Parties(not other forms of ECL like LV or RHD) are intended though not the default

[Crichton]

i am not sure how this is the same thing.

i also cant seem to understand the constant conflation of ECL LA and LV. to be clear none of these words can be used interchangeably. they mean different things even if they intrinsically linked.

i would never try to play a LV 15 char with LV 1's, that is in no way the same as play a LA 1 race with LA 0 races. is it similar in some ways? yes. is it different? yes

starting with Levels OR RHD inflates Saves/HP/BaB, LA does None of that.

the only similar thing between RHD LA and Levels is they all increase your ECL which is a determining factor in other areas, like xp gain/encounter difficulty.

i Posit that Mixed LA (not other forms of ECL like LV or RHD) is intended

No one is conflating ECL, LA, and class level.

In order to help this discussion be more productive, let's get our terminology synchronized with the terms they actually use in the rulebooks:


LA = Level Adjustment
RHD = Racial Hit Die
ECL = Effective Character Level

And you apparently are using the abbreviation 'LV' to refer to Class Level, which is a term used in the rules entry on Level Adjustment, but not given an official acronym.


A characters Effective Character Level is calculated by adding their Class Levels, their Racial Hit Die, and their Level Adjustment.


More information on this can be found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm or on page 172 of your Dungeon Master's Guide, but here's a relevant quote:


Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass characters when they take class levels


Thus a Tiefling Level 1 Fighter is considered to be a Level 2 character(1 level of Fighter, and 1 level of 'Tiefling'), and so they aren't supposed to be allowed as a starting character in a party of Level 1 characters.

[DdarkED]

No one is conflating ECL, LA, and class level.

In order to help this discussion be more productive, let's get our terminology synchronized with the terms they actually use in the rulebooks:


LA = Level Adjustment
RHD = Racial Hit Die
ECL = Effective Character Level

And you apparently are using the abbreviation 'LV' to refer to Class Level, which is a term used in the rules entry on Level Adjustment, but not given an official acronym.


A characters Effective Character Level is calculated by adding their Class Levels, their Racial Hit Die, and their Level Adjustment.


More information on this can be found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm or on page 172 of your Dungeon Master's Guide, but here's a relevant quote:




Thus a Tiefling Level 1 Fighter is considered to be a Level 2 character(1 level of Fighter, and 1 level of 'Tiefling'), and so they aren't supposed to be allowed as a starting character in a party of Level 1 characters.

since this mostly talks about monsters as PC's and not PC races created AS PC races again i am not sure how applicable this is.

"While every monster has the statistics that a player would need to play the creature as a character, most monsters are not suitable as PCs. Creatures who have an Intelligence score of 2 or lower, who have no way to communicate, or who are so different from other PCs that they disrupt the campaign should not be used. Some creatures have strange innate abilities or great physical power, and thus are questionable at best as characters (except in high-level campaigns).
as an example"

PC races who are created to be PC's are balanced with this in mind while monster's as they point out, are not.

[Segev]

since this mostly talks about monsters as PC's and not PC races created AS PC races again i am not sure how applicable this is.

"We're all in the monster manual somewhere." -Varsuvius, Elf wizard.

ECL was introduced to help balance monsters who have powers that make them far stronger than classless versions of PCable races. Later, LA and RHD were used to explain how to calculate ECL, because LA was a useful concept for certain templates.

Creatures with an ECL of X are considered (often erroneously) to be equal in power to characters of level X. This is why they need enough XP to get to level X+1 in order to level up.

I genuinely don't understand what you think ECL is supposed to represent, given your arguments.

There ARE races that were, later on, created with "being PCable" in mind and given (small) level adjustments. Half-Giants, Drow, etc. have them. This makes them have an ECL equal to their LA plus their class level. A Drow with 5 levels of Fighter is an ECL 7 character. A half-dragon elf with 3 levels of wizard is an ECL 7 character. A human with 7 levels of sorcerer is an ECL 7 character.

A party of those three characters is, in theory, all "the same level," because they have the same Effective Character Level. They level up when they hit the same next threshold of XP.

Nothing prevents your DM from allowing you to bring in a half dragon drow with 14 levels of cleric in that same party. But it would be grossly overpowered. Nothing prevents your DM from allowing you to bring in a drow with 1 level of wizard into a party of LA 0 races all with 1 level. Nothing prevents your DM from allowing you to bring in an LA 0 race with 3 levels of wizard into a party of LA 0 races all with 1 level.

But the whole point of ECL is to determine, in theory, the effective character level of your unusually-powerfully-raced PC. So DMs generally don't allow you to bring in an ECL 12 character to a level 1 party. Even if that's 6 RHD and 6 LA.

[Crichton]

since this mostly talks about monsters as PC's and not PC races created AS PC races again i am not sure how applicable this is.

"While every monster has the statistics that a player would need to play the creature as a character, most monsters are not suitable as PCs. Creatures who have an Intelligence score of 2 or lower, who have no way to communicate, or who are so different from other PCs that they disrupt the campaign should not be used. Some creatures have strange innate abilities or great physical power, and thus are questionable at best as characters (except in high-level campaigns).
as an example"

PC races who are created to be PC's are balanced with this in mind while monster's as they point out, are not.

What I'm hearing when you write that is that you don't really understand what Level Adjustment is, or how it's applied. The section I linked and quoted is the rules text where Level Adjustment is defined, and has its rules outlined, in the DMG. It's called "Monsters as Races" because in the core setting(before they published any supplements), there are no 'player races' that have any LA at all. The fact that they later expanded the available 'playable races' through dozens of supplement books does not in any way make this less binding or authoritative as the rules text for how Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level operate.

The same general information about how LA and ECL work is also provided in the "Powerful Races" sidebar in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, which is one of 2 sources for our example race, the Tiefling. In fact, in that very sidebar, they detail how it's not possible to play a character with an ECL higher than 1 in a game that starts at level 1, because in order to play a level 1 character with +1 LA, that character has to start with at least 1000XP (the threshold for becoming a level 2 character, and the minimum XP necessary to play a level 1 Tiefling character)

[DdarkED]

"We're all in the monster manual somewhere." -Varsuvius, Elf wizard.

ECL was introduced to help balance monsters who have powers that make them far stronger than classless versions of PCable races. Later, LA and RHD were used to explain how to calculate ECL, because LA was a useful concept for certain templates.

Creatures with an ECL of X are considered (often erroneously) to be equal in power to characters of level X. This is why they need enough XP to get to level X+1 in order to level up.

I genuinely don't understand what you think ECL is supposed to represent, given your arguments.

There ARE races that were, later on, created with "being PCable" in mind and given (small) level adjustments. Half-Giants, Drow, etc. have them. This makes them have an ECL equal to their LA plus their class level. A Drow with 5 levels of Fighter is an ECL 7 character. A half-dragon elf with 3 levels of wizard is an ECL 7 character. A human with 7 levels of sorcerer is an ECL 7 character.

A party of those three characters is, in theory, all "the same level," because they have the same Effective Character Level. They level up when they hit the same next threshold of XP.

i guess it just bothers me that Timmy the Tiefling lv 1 rogue, and Harry the Human, Lv 1 Wizard. cant team up w/o breaking the rules


What I'm hearing when you write that is that you don't really understand what Level Adjustment is, or how it's applied. The section I linked and quoted is the rules text where Level Adjustment is defined, and has its rules outlined, in the DMG. It's called "Monsters as Races" because in the core setting(before they published any supplements), there are no 'player races' that have any LA at all. The fact that they later expanded the available 'playable races' through dozens of supplement books does not in any way make this less binding or authoritative as the rules text for how Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level operate.

The same general information about how LA and ECL work is also provided in the "Powerful Races" sidebar in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, which is one of 2 sources for our example race, the Tiefling. In fact, in that very sidebar, they detail how it's not possible to play a character with an ECL higher than 1 in a game that starts at level 1, because in order to play a level 1 character with +1 LA, that character has to start with at least 1000XP (the threshold for becoming a level 2 character, and the minimum XP necessary to play a level 1 Tiefling character)


that is super helpful! ty! i will look at the source. that will most likely change my mind!

[Bphill561]

The main problem I have with this is that it has any LA at all, meaning you can't play this character at first level.


Not on my cell phone now.

Ah...Completely incorrect. The template is acquired and you gain levels in it just like a class. So start out as a level 1 bard, get to level 2 and take a level in the half-fiend template class. There is no need to start out at a level higher than one. This is only a half-succubus, but that half is far more than any of the above human builds you are donning with a succubus title.

Now if you are trying to avoid LA, then you should not play a succubus. That is pretty straight forward.


Variant Half-fiends (Including an official succubus)
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a

Savage Progression Rules
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

Half-fiend Savage Progressions
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a

[HorizonWalker]

Not on my cell phone now.

Ah...Completely incorrect. The template is acquired and you gain levels in it just like a class. So start out as a level 1 bard, get to level 2 and take a level in the half-fiend template class. There is no need to start out at a level higher than one. This is only a half-succubus, but that half is far more than any of the above human builds you are donning with a succubus title.

Now if you are trying to avoid LA, then you should not play a succubus. That is pretty straight forward.

A minor nitpick, but none of the sample builds I provided were humans. They were changelings, with the explicit understanding that you'd talk to the DM about reskinning them as Succubi.

More importantly, I firmly believe that the concept of the Succubus should be more-or-less playable at any level, especially low ones, because for the most part, that's the part of the game people actually play.

But, you appear to be correct about the lack of level adjustment for the half-fiend template class. I can't find it at the moment though; would you mind posting a link, so I can edit it into the OP?

[Venger]

savage half-fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a)

[Crichton]

i guess it just bothers me that Timmy the Tiefling lv 1 rogue, and Harry the Human, Lv 1 Wizard. cant team up w/o breaking the rules


That's fine that it bothers you, but you asked (repeatedly) what the rules say, and that's what they say. They even say why, and it makes total sense. A level 1 Tiefling Rogue is objectively significantly stronger than a Level 1 Rogue who's a Human, Halfling, Elf, etc.

[DdarkED]

A minor nitpick, but none of the sample builds I provided were humans. They were changelings, with the explicit understanding that you'd talk to the DM about reskinning them as Succubi.

More importantly, I firmly believe that the concept of the Succubus should be more-or-less playable at any level, especially low ones, because for the most part, that's the part of the game people actually play.

But, you appear to be correct about the lack of level adjustment for the half-fiend template class. I can't find it at the moment though; would you mind posting a link, so I can edit it into the OP?

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

has half fey template class which could work well for a succubus themed char

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a

has half fiend

another article talks about changing half fiend based on its type


That's fine that it bothers you, but you asked (repeatedly) what the rules say, and that's what they say. They even say why, and it makes total sense. A level 1 Tiefling Rogue is objectively significantly stronger than a Level 1 Rogue who's a Human, Halfling, Elf, etc.


that is why in the same post i thanked the 2 people for the rules citation and admitted i would most likely change my mind

[Bphill561]

A minor nitpick, but none of the sample builds I provided were humans. They were changelings, with the explicit understanding that you'd talk to the DM about reskinning them as Succubi.

More importantly, I firmly believe that the concept of the Succubus should be more-or-less playable at any level, especially low ones, because for the most part, that's the part of the game people actually play.

But, you appear to be correct about the lack of level adjustment for the half-fiend template class. I can't find it at the moment though; would you mind posting a link, so I can edit it into the OP?

The links were in the post you quoted, although not in the post before that because I did not want to juggle pasting links from my cell phone. I just clicked on them, they worked.

Sorry about the human, but I just meant a +0 LA race that was wholly not a succubus. There was a 5 hour car drive between the first and second post, i did not refresh my reading.

The fiend savage progression class still is LA, but it is acquired and can be taken one level at a time. This is why I suggest advancing it with uncanny trickster. 2 LA and 3 class levels is better than 4 LA in my opinion. Of course Legacy Champion is better if you can use that source and you pick a weapon you cannot meet the requirements on for continuing it's advancement. Unless you get clearance on a custom item, the penalties for the item are not worth it.

Luckily I got to play in a game where we could drop out of monster progressions early (house rule), allowing for advancement of a succubus with these tactics. Even replacing the last 2 levels of the standard succubus class, which is all LA, with 3 uncanny trickster levels was worth it. Just taking the first 2 levels of succubus would have been better, but DM influence always taints my builds.

What about Unearthed Arcana Bloodlines? I am sure you could whip up a Hellfire (I know, hellfire on a fiend, what can I say) with a level 3 Fiendish Bloodline that is from a succubus heritage. Pick up fiendish grafts later of succubus parts for good measure.