Question about PAM

[mistermysterio]

Tried to find the answer but didn't have any luck.

When do you need to declare the second attack with PAM? Before you begin the initial attack? After the first attack hits?

Reason I ask is, combined with GWM, obviously it would be better to use the bonus action attack on the GWM crit if you crit... but if you already used it on the second attack from PAM then you can't use it for the GWM crit bonus attack. So, do you decide whether to use your polearm bonus action attack before or after the result of the initial attack?

Thanks

[kyaldo]

im of the understanding that u complete your action (in this case attack) and then declare your option of using your bonus action (in this case attack with the butt-end of the pole-arm).

[Jerrykhor]

It sounds like the Shield Master debate again. It depends how strictly you define the difference between 'when' and 'if', and what constitutes as 'taking the Attack action' (whether its one attack, all attacks or just declaring).

Personally, I dont give a toss about that, if i am DM i'd allow you to use the bonus action attack whenever you want.

So the answer is, ask your DM.

[Zhorn]

Jerrykhor is right in that it's pretty much another shield master debate.

Whoever is DM at your table will be the one to declare how they believe it works, and that'll be how it works at your table.


"...When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon..."

I'd say the bonus action attack can be made after you make at least one attack with the Attack action, and I wouldn't rule it ends your Attack action from utilising any remaining Extra Attacks.

Others may rule that:
You make at least one attack with the Attack action, and it ends your Attack action from utilising any remaining Extra Attacks once you take the bonus attack action.
You make all your attacks with the Attack action, including Extra Attacks, before you can use the bonus action attack.
You can make the bonus action attack first if you pwomise weally weally hard to only use your action to make an Attack action.


As for declaring when you intend to use the bonus action attack, it would be once you qualify to be able to use it you just say you are using it.

[Segev]

I can only speak to how I'd rule it. In general, I will not assume a character has spent an action before he actually takes it, unless he tries to take it and something interrupts/prevents it. PAM and GWM specify conditions which enable you to take bonus actions to make attacks of particular sorts. If you fulfil those conditions, you still don't decide to spend the bonus action on the attacks they grant until you actually (attempt to) make the attack.

[NaughtyTiger]

pleasantly surprised at the restraint and rationale answers...

let me screw that up. whichever timing is best for you at that moment, unless/until the DM disagrees. I haven't had a DM yet (including me) that would begrudge you the opportunity to choose when to declare it.

[Keravath]

Basically, you take the Attack action by making one or more attacks. This activates the option of the PAM bonus action attack using the butt end. If any of the attacks during the Attack action happen to kill a target or are a critical AND the character also has GWM then the GWM option of a bonus action attack using the weapon itself also becomes available.

Characters have one bonus action and it can be taken at any point in the turn once the conditions for having the bonus action have been met.

I'm in the camp that you can take bonus actions at any time in the turn including between making an Attack and any Extra Attacks provided by the Extra Attack feature. Other opinions vary.

As a result, if a character makes an attack with the correct type of weapon for PAM, and happens to kill or crit (with GWM), then they can choose to either make a bonus action attack with the butt end of the polearm or a regular attack with it as a bonus action and as long as that attack comes after the first Attack of the turn, timing isn't relevant.

[Tanarii]

When do you need to declare the second attack with PAM? Before you begin the initial attack? After the first attack hits?
It doesn't specify during or immediately after, so IMO if you want to, any time you've taken the Attack Action you can wait to take the PAM bonus action at any point before your turn ends. Provided you don't become incapable of using it for some reason. So yeah, you can totally wait and see if the GWM bonus action attack becomes available instead.

I'm assuming here you're not doing something weird like declaring all actions first, then executing them in order.

[Xeko]

I take the word "can" in the feat description to mean that taking the attack action merely unlocks the option to use your bonus action in that way. You need not declare that you are doing so, however, until you actually take the bonus action. It is merely an option, not a requirement. If you have both PAM and GWM, you can choose, after your attack action, which you wish to use your bonus action for.

You can use a bonus action before or after your standard action, but if you do it before, you won't have had attacked yet on that turn, and thus the PAM and GWM bonus action options couldn't be used. A Hexblade Warlock using a glaive might benefit from PAM or GWM after they attack on their turn, but they also might still choose to use their bonus action before attacking, to cast Hex or use some other bonus action option.

As for using a bonus action in between the multiple attacks granted by the Extra Attack feature (or the Thirsting Blade eldritch invocation, if we're sticking with our Warlock example), I'm on the fence on that one. Both Extra Attack and Thirsting Blade make it clear that all of the attacks are treated as being a part of the same single attack action, and I don't know if it makes a lot of sense to separate the same action into two parts, by putting a separate action in the middle of it. That said, we do know, definitively, that you CAN move between the first and second attacks. Now, movement isn't quite the same as an action (some people use the term "movement action", but such phrasing doesn't appear anywhere in official rules), but even so, if you can break up the attacks by running 30 feet, why couldn't you break up the attacks by whacking someone with the butt end of the weapon? So, like I said, I'm on the fence on that particular issue. Just glad it's never come up in my games yet. But as for declaring when you're using PAM and GWM, I say declare it whenever it is convenient to do so. You can absolutely choose whether to use PAM or GWM after the attacks resolve and you see the rolls.

[Chronos]

It's not the Shield Master debate again. There, the question is whether you can take your bonus action before making some or all of the attacks allowed by the attack action. Opinions differ on that, and we've been over that enough times already.

But the OP here doesn't want to take his bonus action before he's finished attacking. He wants to take it after. Everyone agrees that you can do that, and in fact some argue that you must do that.