I think I've uncovered an insanely broken trick involving LA

[MatrixStone93]

First, your character is a human. He gets a bonus feat and 0LA. But he hates his family and his life's goal is to find some way to permanently transform himself into some specific powerful race with a very high LA and stats/bonuses to make this worth it. So a level 4 wizard eventually gets to become a level 4 +6LA race or something without it affecting his level because he became this race artificially.

[Ashtagon]

First, your character is a human. He gets a bonus feat and 0LA. But he hates his family and his life's goal is to find some way to permanently transform himself into some specific powerful race with a very high LA and stats/bonuses to make this worth it. So a level 4 wizard eventually gets to become a level 4 +6LA race or something without it affecting his level because he became this race artificially.

And once he achieves this new race, he is effectively a L10 character for XP earning purposes. Meaning anything he is able to earn XP from defeating will likely one-shot him.

Your racial LA changes when you change your race or acquire new templates.

Next?

[heavyfuel]

That is... not new in the slightest.

It's pretty well known you can do that, it's just almost never worth it.

Your level 4 wizard now has an effective character level (ECL) of 10, because ECL is calculated as "Racial HD + Class Levels + LA". That means he gains XP as a 10th level character, but he only has maybe 30 hit points, crappy saving throws, and can only cast 2nd level spells. Those are terrible stats for a 10th level character.

If he fights monsters with CR close to 10 that will actually give him XP, he's gonna have a really hard time, because these monsters will have abilities a lv 4 wizard likely can't deal with. And if he fights weak monsters, he'll get no XP, because his ECL is so high.

Basically, he's stuck at level 4, and it's gonna be really difficult for him to ever level up. It's still a neat trick if you're nearing the campaign's end, and sacrificing a single level for a bunch of racial abilities could be worth it (especially for martial characters)

[False God]

First, your character is a human. He gets a bonus feat and 0LA. But he hates his family and his life's goal is to find some way to permanently transform himself into some specific powerful race with a very high LA and stats/bonuses to make this worth it. So a level 4 wizard eventually gets to become a level 4 +6LA race or something without it affecting his level because he became this race artificially.

Nah, still affects the level. Just doesn't affect you at character creation. As soon as he picks up the new HD and LA from the new race, it gets taken into account for their XP required to level.

Now, that doesn't mean there aren't some neat things to get turned into but depending on the game you're in there's a high chance you'll never see XP ever again.

That's also to say: I've done this in a number of games as my DMs are fairly lenient on polymorph abuse, and my advice would be to go big or go home. Pick the biggest most OP least squishy thing you can without your DM literally beating you to death with his books and turn into that.

Who needs XP when you're a Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon?

[Elkad]

He just stays in the L4 dungeon for a long time. CR3 encounters are still worth XP, just not very much. 40 Ogres later, he's L11

[lord_khaine]

But that requires there is 40 ogres in the L4 dungeon.
For that matter, even if there were. So what? Its not like his problems goes away at level 11 :smalltongue:

[Willie the Duck]

He just stays in the L4 dungeon for a long time. CR3 encounters are still worth XP, just not very much. 40 Ogres later, he's L11

So this character is stuck grinding on low-level monsters, and gaining nothing from this 'insanely broken trick' other than suffering a little less risk per encounter in exchange for significantly less xp granted per encounter. Exactly what, positively, has been accomplished? Certainly the initial claim that it has been done "without it affecting his level because he became this race artificially" has been shown not to be the case.

So I guess we're back to reassessing what one's goals are:
For the player- they seem to have locked themselves into the most boring playstyle ever (grinding low-level monsters in a low-risk, low-reward situation). We can accomplish the same by popping in an old 1980's Dragon Quest/Dragon Warrior game and never leaving the initial area where you fight nothing but slimes.
For the character- this is a little more promising. Obviously most characters, in their universe, would love a risk/cost-free* way of making themselves more powerful/durable. Why wouldn't they? They aren't worried that they've made it harder for themselves to level up because what are these levels you speak of? They might realize that they've just drawn a big ol' target upon themselves that they might not have the competence to manage (just like a 1st level rogue finding a 50k gp magic item might be more curse than blessing), but that's going to be story-specific. I know that, were I a character in a D&D world who just went from 4th level wizard to 10 ECL awesomeness, I'd be like, "cool! Goal achieved! I will retire from this adventuring lifestyle and live in whatever luxury these newfound abilities can garner me."
*although here we should probably figure out the "how" of 'some way to permanently transform himself' and see if there would be any cost or risk.

[Quertus]

Ogres were exactly the example I was going to use.

So, are there any good LA +6 templates? That you can add? Hmmm… Vampire is, what, +8?

So, can a party of 4 4th level Wizard Vampires (who are well under WBL for 12th, btw) handle some CR 5 encounters to earn XP? More importantly, is there a level where they cannot earn XP? And, even if they technically could, how likely are they to be able to find acceptable foes?

Edit: also, my babies have 10k XP. And need 78k to level.

[Gallowglass]

First, your character is a human. He gets a bonus feat and 0LA. But he hates his family and his life's goal is to find some way to permanently transform himself into some specific powerful race with a very high LA and stats/bonuses to make this worth it. So a level 4 wizard eventually gets to become a level 4 +6LA race or something without it affecting his level because he became this race artificially.

I'm sorry that most of the answers to you so far have been needlessly rude and condescending.

As was stated, around the vitriol, the LA still effects your experience gain formula even though you gained it at a later point rather than at character creation. So its of limited practical use. But it could make for a very interesting story

[MisterKaws]

But that requires there is 40 ogres in the L4 dungeon.
For that matter, even if there were. So what? Its not like his problems goes away at level 11 :smalltongue:

40? You guys missed something: when you get a forced template, you don't get extra XP. You have to pay seven levels in xp before you can level up once. At reduced xp, too.

[heavyfuel]

Edit: also, my babies have 10k XP. And need 78k to level.


40? You guys missed something: when you get a forced template, you don't get extra XP. You have to pay seven levels in xp before you can level up once.

So, it's actually 272 ogres. *Ahem*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN8puAGksfo

[Crake]

40? You guys missed something: when you get a forced template, you don't get extra XP. You have to pay seven levels in xp before you can level up once. At reduced xp, too.

That's when you level drain yourself and then cast restoration to bring your xp total to the base of "4" (10), so you can skip those 6 previous levels of grinding and only need to pay the last 10k.

[MisterKaws]

That's when you level drain yourself and then cast restoration to bring your xp total to the base of "4" (10), so you can skip those 6 previous levels of grinding and only need to pay the last 10k.

If the DM lets that pass, though, you might as well level drain the RHD and continue as a lower-level creature with a bunch of templates.

[Crake]

If the DM lets that pass, though, you might as well level drain the RHD and continue as a lower-level creature with a bunch of templates.

this whole thing seems to be assuming pure LA, no rhd, but savage progressions from savage species seem to imply that racial HD are always considered your "first" levels, and thus are lost last, and gained first, so there's no avoiding them

[Crichton]

this whole thing seems to be assuming pure LA, no rhd, but savage progressions from savage species seem to imply that racial HD are always considered your "first" levels, and thus are lost last, and gained first, so there's no avoiding them

I'm not sure I follow. Just a quick glance at the Rakshasa progression from SS, it seems the RHD are gained every other level, in that progresson...?

[MisterKaws]

You could do it with a cursed Lycanthrope, though. It's explicitly not the first levels.


I'm not sure I follow. Just a quick glance at the Rakshasa progression from SS, it seems the RHD are gained every other level, in that progresson...?

they're still before the class.

[Crake]

I'm not sure I follow. Just a quick glance at the Rakshasa progression from SS, it seems the RHD are gained every other level, in that progresson...?

I meant before class levels, not before LA levels.


You could do it with a cursed Lycanthrope, though. It's explicitly not the first levels.

Yes, though omitting the savage progression lycanthrope RHD comes with drawbacks, unlike what most people try to achieve by draining racial HD typically, which is just getting free levels at no cost

[MisterKaws]

I meant before class levels, not before LA levels.



Yes, though omitting the savage progression lycanthrope RHD comes with drawbacks, unlike what most people try to achieve by draining racial HD typically, which is just getting free levels at no cost

Cursed Lycanthropes through the Curse of Lycanthropy spell get the full pack, not the Savage Progression, so by RAW they don't lose anything other than HD with level drain.

And that ability is really free-form, too. If you can find a Legendary Animal, you can just slash it once then turn yourself into it. Then level drain and get Legendary Animal abilities for just 2 LA. That's why DMs don't like that spell, I guess.

[Crake]

Cursed Lycanthropes through the Curse of Lycanthropy spell get the full pack, not the Savage Progression, so by RAW they don't lose anything other than HD with level drain.

And that ability is really free-form, too. If you can find a Legendary Animal, you can just slash it once then turn yourself into it. Then level drain and get Legendary Animal abilities for just 2 LA. That's why DMs don't like that spell, I guess.

The savage progression for lycanthropy covers both cursed and natural

[Elkad]

272 Ogres. Hey, sounds like a 1e game, where you needed 250,000-500,000 xp per level once you got to mid levels.

Except it goes away after one little catchup session.


For +4 LA I hope you got something useful. Flight so you can drop rocks on Ogres or Dire Tyrannosaurs or something.

[Quertus]

Cursed Lycanthropes through the Curse of Lycanthropy spell get the full pack, not the Savage Progression, so by RAW they don't lose anything other than HD with level drain.

And that ability is really free-form, too. If you can find a Legendary Animal, you can just slash it once then turn yourself into it. Then level drain and get Legendary Animal abilities for just 2 LA. That's why DMs don't like that spell, I guess.

Have we finally found an acceptable, balanced template, or will Tier 1 casters still complain that it's not worth the loss of a spell level?

[MisterKaws]

The savage progression for lycanthropy covers both cursed and natural

Yes, but the spell gives the full template. At once. No progression.

Plus there's no Savage Progression for lycanthropes other than the base 5 or 6.

[Willie the Duck]

For +4 LA I hope you got something useful. Flight so you can drop rocks on Ogres or Dire Tyrannosaurs or something.

Are we dropping rocks on either ogres or dire tyrannosaurs, or are we dropping either rocks or dire tyrannosaurs on ogres? I ask because the latter seems like a perfect use of a hulking hurler build. :smalltongue:

[Crake]

Yes, but the spell gives the full template. At once. No progression.

Plus there's no Savage Progression for lycanthropes other than the base 5 or 6.

oh, you're talking about the spell. You mean the one that was updated in spell compendium? The one where now instead you just explode into 1d6 wererats? Yeah, don't think that works anymore.

[MisterKaws]

oh, you're talking about the spell. You mean the one that was updated in spell compendium? The one where now instead you just explode into 1d6 wererats? Yeah, don't think that works anymore.

Damn, didn't know that. Too bad.

[MatrixStone93]

But guys...

How much it sucks is part of its beauty.

If you pull this in a game, your DM has three choices: Invalidate everyone else by sending monsters strong enough to instakill you and only you (and you will die since you have no party to protect you), kill you and make you create a new character, or houserule away the insane bullet wound in your foot so you and the rest of your low level party can keep on climbing levels and having fun as a group.

You force the DM to either allow you to ruin the game for yourself and everyone else, kill you for trying this, or fix the unfair disadvantages this stupid trick gives you. Only getting half the stats and size a ****huge Celestrian Prismatic Dragon should have is still a huge buff for your low level warrior or cleric or wizard or whatever.

Or a third option: make finally becoming your chosen race part of your post-game final session Happy Ending and the culmination of a long-ass scavenger hunt that motivates your character through epic roleplaying. So then it doesn't matter since you'll never play these characters again.

EXP for roleplaying might also help you offset those exp penalties too. And nothing is easier for a player to roleplay than someone obsessed with doing a thing and getting a reward.

[Crake]

But guys...

How much it sucks is part of its beauty.

If you pull this in a game, your DM has three choices: Invalidate everyone else by sending monsters strong enough to instakill you and only you (and you will die since you have no party to protect you), kill you and make you create a new character, or houserule away the insane bullet wound in your foot so you and the rest of your low level party can keep on climbing levels and having fun as a group.

You force the DM to either allow you to ruin the game for yourself and everyone else, kill you for trying this, or fix the unfair disadvantages this stupid trick gives you. Only getting half the stats and size a ****huge Celestrian Prismatic Dragon should have is still a huge buff for your low level warrior or cleric or wizard or whatever.

Or a third option: make finally becoming your chosen race part of your post-game final session Happy Ending and the culmination of a long-ass scavenger hunt that motivates your character through epic roleplaying. So then it doesn't matter since you'll never play these characters again.

EXP for roleplaying might also help you offset those exp penalties too. And nothing is easier for a player to roleplay than someone obsessed with doing a thing and getting a reward.

I'm not sure why you think "making the DM pick from three bad options" is a good thing? But, ultimately, it was the DM that allowed you to end up in that position in the first place by allowing you acquire a +6 LA template at level 4. He was well within his rights to simply just say no at that point, or make it into a gradual thing ala savage progressions (which is the method I generally use for such circumstances) letting you gain the power slowly, rather than frontloading it all at once.

[heavyfuel]

I'm not sure why you think "making the DM pick from three bad options" is a good thing?

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm. There's no blue text, but I'm still like 99% sure it was.

[Sheogoroth]

I don't know that we should jump down the guy's throat because he discovered one of the many cracks in the armor of the system we all love.I remember thinking up the reincarnate thing and getting really excited.

If one of my player's pulled this and I was the DM, I'd make them play their LA +6 race. Most of the LA6 races are pretty horrifying, so eventually the mask will slip and the ruse will fall apart and that player will be exterminated by the local paranoid wizard with true sight.

[MisterKaws]

But guys...

How much it sucks is part of its beauty.

If you pull this in a game, your DM has three choices: Invalidate everyone else by sending monsters strong enough to instakill you and only you (and you will die since you have no party to protect you), kill you and make you create a new character, or houserule away the insane bullet wound in your foot so you and the rest of your low level party can keep on climbing levels and having fun as a group.

You force the DM to either allow you to ruin the game for yourself and everyone else, kill you for trying this, or fix the unfair disadvantages this stupid trick gives you. Only getting half the stats and size a ****huge Celestrian Prismatic Dragon should have is still a huge buff for your low level warrior or cleric or wizard or whatever.

Or a third option: make finally becoming your chosen race part of your post-game final session Happy Ending and the culmination of a long-ass scavenger hunt that motivates your character through epic roleplaying. So then it doesn't matter since you'll never play these characters again.

EXP for roleplaying might also help you offset those exp penalties too. And nothing is easier for a player to roleplay than someone obsessed with doing a thing and getting a reward.

No. The DM just says: "No, you're not getting that template. Case over." and the game proceeds normally. Or he houserules the LA to a more reasonable value and you still have to pay it.


I'm not sure why you think "making the DM pick from three bad options" is a good thing? But, ultimately, it was the DM that allowed you to end up in that position in the first place by allowing you acquire a +6 LA template at level 4. He was well within his rights to simply just say no at that point, or make it into a gradual thing ala savage progressions (which is the method I generally use for such circumstances) letting you gain the power slowly, rather than frontloading it all at once.


I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm. There's no blue text, but I'm still like 99% sure it was.

Considering the amount of DM rants we see, I'm inclined to say that this is another new player who "found" a "new game-breaking trick" (which is dubious: that trick is neither new nor game-breaking), but still doesn't realize that TO should be left out of real play. It's okay to theorycraft and all, but it should be left far away from a table. Don't try to corner your DM. At best you'll get a "no" and the game continues. At worst you get kicked out of the table or it is disbanded completely.


I don't know that we should jump down the guy's throat because he discovered one of the many cracks in the armor of the system we all love.I remember thinking up the reincarnate thing and getting really excited.

Because that's what the playgrounders do. Anything brought here will simply be shredded apart by hungry rule-lawyers and rebuilt into something slightly more functional.


If one of my player's pulled this and I was the DM, I'd make them play their LA +6 race. Most of the LA6 races are pretty horrifying, so eventually the mask will slip and the ruse will fall apart and that player will be exterminated by the local paranoid wizard with true sight.

See, that isn't very nice either. If you see a new player doing a choice you know is bad or will become a headache, you shouldn't just let them go on. Instead, houserule something that works for them, and go on playing. One of the worst things for a player is having a DM who doesn't like what you do and instead of talking you out of doing it, attacks you in-game for it.

Relevant link. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVfGZPVqCNk)

[Quertus]

See, that isn't very nice either. If you see a new player doing a choice you know is bad or will become a headache, you shouldn't just let them go on. Instead, houserule something that works for them, and go on playing. One of the worst things for a player is having a DM who doesn't like what you do and instead of talking you out of doing it, attacks you in-game for it.

Relevant link. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVfGZPVqCNk)

IMO, the nicest thing you can do is teach the player. Rip them a new one explaining just how stupid the (mechanical implementation of the) idea is, make sure that they understand & agree.

Then you can talk to them about maybe explicitly house ruling some playable version of their ideas.

[MatrixStone93]

Okay, so what would a houseruled workable version of this be?

What LA race gives stats and other good things good enough for this to be worth it?

Somebody once told me LA races are never worth it because a class level is better 99 times out of 100. Would this be true for a plus 6 LA race if it was reduced in price to 2LA?

[Buufreak]

Somebody once told me LA races are never worth it because a class level is better 99 times out of 100. Would this be true for a plus 6 LA race if it was reduced in price to 2LA?

No, because you are playing a wizard in this scenario you concocted, and 6 levels in front-loaded-stat-basket-race is 6 levels in not wizard. Yea, you will get to walk around like big **** McGee for exactly 20 seconds, but let's pretend that this little charade gets to carry on. What is the end game? I assume you have party members here, so let's go with some staples. Cleric 20, barbarian 20, rogue 20. Each are getting their full list of class abilities, and more importantly, the full load of level up perks. HP, bab, saves, ability points, feats, the whole shebang.

You? You get only 14 levels of that. Why? Because LA counts towards ECL, but doesn't count towards hit dice, which are what grant all of those things. So you are stunting a vast majority of what levels grant, but that isn't even mentioning the whole reason to be a wizard in the first place: spells. Spells are what truly shatter the fabric of reality that the game tries to establish. And with only 14 levels of wizard, you are getting at best 7th level spells. They are good, sure, but they completely pale in comparison to higher magic.

So there it is. The options are take this cheap out, get some early stats and tricks, swing a big stick around for a short while, and by the end game miss out on 6 levels of everything good about a wizard, 2 entire spell levels, 2 ability points, 2 feats, and a handful of other things... or don't. Level the wizard, don't piss off your DM and the rest of the party, and eventually reap the rewards.