Choosing Between Sorcmonk and Druidmonk

[Maelynn]

I've been working on an optimised backup character (for the reasoning behind this, see my previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?592864-Help-with-Monk-Ranger)), and after some good advice from here and an idea given by a friend, I'm now down to 2 possible options. I just can't seem to choose between them, because they both seem to have more or less equal pros and cons. I'd love to hear your opinions!

Race: Wood Elf
Class: Druid 1 / Monk 5
Background: Outlander
Feat: Elven Accuracy

Attributes:

STR 8
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 8

AC: 17
Initiative: +4
Speed: 45

Skills: Perception (Elf), Athletics (Outlander), Survival (Outlander), Medicine (Druid), Nature (Druid)
Tools: herbalism kit

Druid:

- (Ritual) Casting

cantrips: Primal Savagery, Shillelagh (mostly to have a magic weapon, although Thorn Whip is attractive as a ranged option)
1st level Spells: Absorb Elements, Cure Wounds, Earth Tremor, Faerie Fire (I know they can freely be switched, but these would be my go-to set)

Monk:

- Way of the Open Hand

Pros:

- great ability synergy, not MAD
- spellcasting ability is 16, so good spell attack modifier and DC
- always access to magic weapon
- very nice set of spells without being dependent on them
- ability to heal self if need be (especially once we hit level 7 and I get Wholeness of Body)
- don't need full ASI, so I could pick Elven Accuracy as a feat (only decent one with a +1 DEX, not ideal but still an added bonus)
- Open Hand gives many opportunities to create advantage

Race: VHuman
Class: Sorc 1 / Monk 5
Background: Urchin
Feats: all ASI

Attributes:

STR 8
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 14

AC: 17
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40

Skills: Sleight of Hand (Urchin), Stealth (Urchin), Arcana (Sorcerer), Insight (Sorcerer)
Tools: thieves' tools, disguise kit

Sorcerer (Shadow Magic):

- Darkvision
- Strength of the Grave

cantrips: Minor Illusion, Acid Splash, Chill Touch, Firebolt, Shocking Grasp
1st level Spells: Absorb Elements, Chaos Bolt

Monk:

- Way of Shadow
- sneakiness through spells like Pass Without Trace and, once we hit 7, Shadow Step ability

Pros:

- Strength of the Grave adds survivability
- good base stats because of ASI's
- quite a lot of cantrips in arsenal

[tieren]

I don't see what you are getting from the druid dip to be worth slowing your monk progression and reducing your ki. You'll get unarmed strikes as magic weapons about the time you need them (if you don't delay progression). If you really want rituals or a cantrip pick up magic initiate or ritual caster as a feat and not slow your progression.

There is some neat synergy with a Way of the Shadow Monk and a shadow sorcerer (see in your own darkness so you can teleport into it), that if I wanted to make a shadow themed character I might try, maybe incorporating Shadow Blade as a primary strategy.

[Trickery]

Neither one, honestly. One level of Druid doesn't add much to a Monk, and one level of Sorcerer adds even less. There is a Moon Druid 2 / Monk build that uses wildshape forms for some Kung Fu Panda shenanigans, but it's not ideal either. The problem is that you sacrifice your Monk progression - the progression you want - to diversify your build. Nine times out of ten in a team-based game, you're better of specializing in your role and letting other party members fulfill their own than you are trying to do everything yourself.

Don't think of yourself as an island. Focus on what your character can do best. Work with your party and see what effects they can provide to you.

If you need some spells for your build, you're probably better off getting them from the feats Magic Initiate or Wood Elf Magic.

[hymer]

Between the two, I'd definitely go with the druidmonk. As has been said, one level of druid isn't giving you much, but if you intend to take another level of druid, it starts to make sense. If you have no intention of putting more levels in druid, I'd strongly consider going with cleric instead. That's a much more front-loaded class.

The sorcerermonk is too MAD for me, and would only get worse from here on.

[Maelynn]

worth slowing your monk progression

I've never multiclassed before. I realise single class is almost always better, but I just want to give multiclass a try. To me, that makes it worth it.

Initially, I was thinking of doing it the other way around - 1 level Monk for Unarmoured Defence, and then Moon Druid for some kick-assery. Eventually I decided against this because I fear it will paint an even larger bullseye on my back, so I switched it and want to see if I can make this happen.


You'll get unarmed strikes as magic weapons about the time you need them (if you don't delay progression).

Unarmed only, though. Shillelagh gives me the chance to turn my quarterstaff into a magic weapon, which is why it interested me. And if I were to go further into Monk, then next time we level I'll get the magic unarmed anyway.


If you need some spells for your build, you're probably better off getting them from the feats Magic Initiate or Wood Elf Magic.

I can't pick those feats. I need a feat that gives at least +1 DEX, so that I can reach 18 (we use point buy).

So it's either Elven Accuracy or up Charisma to 10 so that an ASI (DEX/WIS) can be used fully. And out of those options, I prefer Elven Accuracy.


if you intend to take another level of druid, it starts to make sense. If you have no intention of putting more levels in druid, I'd strongly consider going with cleric instead. That's a much more front-loaded class.

Hm, I don't really plan on going for more Druid levels, because Wildshape is pretty powerful. I don't want to give the DM yet another reason to try and screw over my PC.

Didn't really like the Cleric cantrips the first time I looked into it, only Word of Radiance seems worth it. Although, now I look at Nature and see they get a free Druid cantrip, that does make it more interesting. But even then, I don't feel they can match Primal Savagery, Absorb Elements, and Earth Tremor.

[paladinn]

Themeatically/ lituraturally/ cinematically, there is more basis for sorcerer/monk. The martial arts flicks are full of sorcerers who are also skilled martial artists (and vice-versa)

[PeteNutButter]

Druid is a fine dip for monk's but it is also the worst level 1 for a spellcaster. As mentioned above, if you just want 1 level take cleric.

Sorcerer on the other hand is MAD so I'd usually avoid it, but you seem to have better than normal stats, so you might be able to pull it off, as long as you keep your focus. (As an aside, if you can alter your stats ala point buy, dump int to 8 and cha to 13 so you can still get a 14 con.)

Anyways there are really only 2 spells you want: Shield, and Alter Self. Shield is amazing on monks who really can't get their AC into unhittable range easily and generally don't have good reaction usage. Alter self requires a 3 level dip, so it's a little steep, but if you use your 2nd level slots for it, you can usually get +1 to hit and damage for most of the day [and be wolverine]. At that point you might be tempted to take sorcerer all the way to 5 for haste, which wouldn't be terrible, especially if you can spam short rests for your ki fairly often.

...seems like fun. Keep your ASIs in monk stats, and don't bother casting any spells that ever use cha.

[stoutstien]

Both will work but neither is optimized which isn't that big of a deal.
I second looking at cleric but I just think they have better 1st lv spells. Bless being the stand out but shield of Faith is tempting on a monk.

[Trickery]

I can't pick those feats. I need a feat that gives at least +1 DEX, so that I can reach 18 (we use point buy).

What if you go Variant Human and take Magic Initiate at level 1 as your extra feat? Then you can have 16/16 DEX/WIS at level one and take +2 to DEX to get 18 at level 4 instead of level 5.

[Maelynn]

Druid is a fine dip for monk's but it is also the worst level 1 for a spellcaster. As mentioned above, if you just want 1 level take cleric.

It's highly dependent on the situation/campaign a PC is in, so I might've thought differently if we had a different setup. Given my current predicament I can't see Cleric spells being better than Primal Savagery, Absorb Elements, and Earth Tremor. Except Shield, but that still doesn't make it worth the trade-off in my case.


don't bother casting any spells that ever use cha.

Yeah, that's what bugged me a bit about the sorcmonk as well. The most interesting Sorc spells require a spell attack roll or a saving throw. A +1 difference can make a difference between a successful spell and a wasted slot, true enough, but I'm not a full caster anyway. It shouldn't gimp me the way it would if I were a single class Sorcerer.


What if you go Variant Human and take Magic Initiate at level 1 as your extra feat? Then you can have 16/16 DEX/WIS at level one and take +2 to DEX to get 18 at level 4 instead of level 5.

I'm afraid Darkvision is a must-have. The only reason why I could use VHuman for the sorcmonk is because Shadow Origin grants Darkvision at lvl 1. And out of the races that have Darkvision, the Wood Elf is the only one that could give me the stats I need.

[Trickery]

I'm afraid Darkvision is a must-have. The only reason why I could use VHuman for the sorcmonk is because Shadow Origin grants Darkvision at lvl 1. And out of the races that have Darkvision, the Wood Elf is the only one that could give me the stats I need.

Then why not just go VHuman shadow monk without sorcerer levels?

[Maelynn]

Then why not just go VHuman shadow monk without sorcerer levels?

Like I said, Darkvision is granted by Shadow Origin. A Way of the Shadow Monk doesn't get Darkvision unless they waste 2 ki points on it.

[Trickery]

Like I said, Darkvision is granted by Shadow Origin. A Way of the Shadow Monk doesn't get Darkvision unless they waste 2 ki points on it.

Which is unfortunate, but you may be able to work around that. At the 7th hour of a long rest, put the spell on yourself and finish the long rest. You should be able to fit a short rest in there and keep Darkvision as long as your DM is permissive. It lasts for 8 hours which should last you until the next opportunity to reapply it before a short rest. Learned this tactic from another playgrounder.

[tieren]

I've never multiclassed before. I realise single class is almost always better, but I just want to give multiclass a try. To me, that makes it worth it.


Thats cool, I prefer good character concept to the optimized character any day of the week.

So then the question is which concept appeals to you more? I could see the druid level perhaps as being a sort of elemental tie in and then maybe going 4E monk for elemental monk effects. You'll be hurting for ki, but a couple of actual slots will take some of that hurt away.

The sorcerer level seems more open ended to me but you seem to be leaning shadow, in which case the way of shadow/shadow sorcerer seems like a fun theme to build to.

[Trickery]

If you're set on multiclassing and are considering an odd combination, may I suggest two levels of Warlock? This will get you two cantrips, three spells known (there are some useful ones like Hex and Protection from Evil and Good), two short-rest spell slots to cast your spells, and two invocations. The invocations could be Devil's Sight and Eldritch Sight, allowing you to see pretty much everything. Combine this with the Shadow Monk schtick and this character becomes one of the most effective scouts in the game. Do note that you can't concentrate on both Detect Magic and Pass Without Trace at the same time, though.

[Keravath]

A couple of comments.

Assuming you are using point buy for stats there is an issue with the sorcmonk. A VHuman can't increase stats with their bonus feat unless your DM has house ruled it. So the starting stats are

8
16 +2 = 18 (ASI)
14
8
16
13

An ASI at level 4 monk could boost dex but you have an int of 8 and cha of 13.

Mechanically, one reason monks multiclass is to increase the damage from their many attacks. This can mean obtaining hunters mark, hex, or divine favor. Divine favor is a d4 extra damage on every attack compared to the d6 for the other spells but it doesn't require a bonus action to move to a new target so it is probably more efficient.

You can obtain divine favor by taking a single level of war cleric as a multiclass which also gets some healing spells/cantrips/bless and other useful spells for a one level dip that can increase the monk's damage output with either melee or ranged attacks. This has the added advantage of not being MAD.

Another option that works pretty well would be 2 to 4 levels of ranger (as opposed to druid) for hunter's mark, a couple of other spells and abilities which may increase damage and a fighting style (likely dueling).

Finally, warlock might be an alternative to sorcerer since for a two level dip you pick up some cantrips, 2 short rest spell slots, possibly the darkness+devils sight combination (though better with a shadow monk) and hex. The short rest resources synergize pretty well with monk.

[tieren]

Assuming you are using point buy for stats there is an issue with the sorcmonk. A VHuman can't increase stats with their bonus feat unless your DM has house ruled it.

Where are you getting that from?

In my opinion that sounds like the house rule, there is nothing in the book limiting which feats they can pick, it is ok to pick a half feat that includes a stat bump..

[Maelynn]

Which is unfortunate, but you may be able to work around that. At the 7th hour of a long rest, put the spell on yourself and finish the long rest. You should be able to fit a short rest in there and keep Darkvision as long as your DM is permissive. It lasts for 8 hours which should last you until the next opportunity to reapply it before a short rest. Learned this tactic from another playgrounder.

Oh, that's a neat trick indeed. Only caveat is the bolded part. If my suspicions are true that the DM has it in for me, then I can't rely on these things. If he rules against it, then I'm still screwed out of my ki points.


then the question is which concept appeals to you more?

Hrm. Good question. I think it's the nature aspect that appeals to me, getting some of the ties without going too far in to get too much of what makes a Druid OP. I've always enjoyed playing characters with some nature attachment, like wood elves or Druids or Rangers, not just in D&D but all sorts of RPGs/MMOs. I'm curious about a Monk, and adding a sprinkle of nature is just a cherry on top.

The idea of a shadowy sorcmonk is also interesting (mostly because it seems there's a decent amount of synergy between the abilities), though I wonder if the character doesn't end up being too angsty/edgelord, or downright evil. If I were to go with this option, then I'd have to put some extra effort in personality/background to get a believable PC who doesn't feel like they're yanked out of a cheap Stephenie Meyer novel.


The sorcerer level seems more open ended to me but you seem to be leaning shadow, in which case the way of shadow/shadow sorcerer seems like a fun theme to build to.

Yes, it's indeed a Shadow Sorcerer/Way of Shadow Monk. I thought I had both written down in my first post, sorry if I wasn't clear.


If you're set on multiclassing and are considering an odd combination, may I suggest two levels of Warlock?

Warlock is a no-go. If you have some time to waste on a bit of reading, I gave the explanation in the earlier thread that I linked to. Well, the sparknotes version is that I need a backup character just in case my DM finally succeeds in his attempt to break my PC - and as a replacement I want one that has a high AC without armour, can hold their own well enough, and does not depend on DM intervention to make it work. The Darkvision is because the rest of the party all have it and I strongly suspect the DM will come up with a way to penalise me if I'm the only one who lacks it.

I do agree that the pairing with Devil's Sight would be amazing. It's an incredibly useful power if you can see through magical darkness you created.


A VHuman can't increase stats with their bonus feat unless your DM has house ruled it.

Euh... I... well, fork me, you're right. Even the friend who suggested it to me (who is a bit of an optimiser) always took it for granted that you can freely interchange ASI and feats... now that I look closely, I see that the VHuman description says you get a feat. Not an ASI. Damn.

Okay, the sorcmonk has lost a lot of its appeal - it could've worked without the extra ASI if it weren't so MAD.

[Maelynn]

Sorry, I was so taken aback by the revelation regarding VHuman feats that I forgot the rest of your post.


Divine favor is a d4 extra damage on every attack compared to the d6 for the other spells but it doesn't require a bonus action to move to a new target so it is probably more efficient.

Except the spell says 'weapon attack'. And while a Monk's unarmed strikes are powerful, they still aren't considered a weapon. This means that only my quarterstaff attacks benefit from it.


Another option that works pretty well would be 2 to 4 levels of ranger (as opposed to druid) for hunter's mark, a couple of other spells and abilities which may increase damage and a fighting style (likely dueling).

I had initially looked into a Monk 1 / Ranger 5 build (see the thread I linked to in my first post), but I feel it won't have the same potential as one that leans more towards Monk.

[tieren]

I think you will like the druid/monk given what you have posted. You may want to consider going wood elf and picking up fey teleportation if you want a pseudo shadow monk hop.

And I can't imagine anyone considering wild shape OP at the level you would be playing with only a 2 level dip, particularly if you don't choose moon druid and are limited to smaller CR beasts. The forms can have a lot of out of combat utility though which can be real handy.

[Mitsu]

I'm afraid Darkvision is a must-have. The only reason why I could use VHuman for the sorcmonk is because Shadow Origin grants Darkvision at lvl 1. And out of the races that have Darkvision, the Wood Elf is the only one that could give me the stats I need.

Just so you know- Darkvision is overrated and totally can be skipped. All what you need is ONE character in your party who can cast Light cantrip (casted on your amulet under your shirt or on your weapon etc.), which lasts 1 hour, when you know you will fight in darkness or carry a lamp/magic torch with you.

Since object interaction is free-action, you can easy drop light source at your feet when you attack enemy in melee and after you need to move or you finished your current combat - pick it up and move with it and drop it again as both actions are free actions and don't consume Bonus, Reaction or Action. Especially if you will always have free hand because as Monk you won't dual wield or use shields.

Darkvision is little bit more important for range character, though it can still be easy avoided with bullseye lamp or Light spell or any Light source around your melee teammates.

There are also Night Goggles, uncommon magic item.

Generally if you play being melee character- there are many ways to offset darkvision in close combat.

So you can easy go Variant Human if darkvision is your main concern- it's nor worth to pick race for it.

[Waazraath]

I'm not sure what to advise... you want an optimized back up, but also want to give multiclass a try, and are down to these 2 options... which, as others have mentioned, aren't very optimized.

In this case, I'd look at 1) which is more fun to me, since optimization isn't the main thing after all, and 2), if you want to optimize, see which betters suits the rest of the party. For example, if you don't have another healer, that 1 level of Druid with Healint Word could be very valuable.

[Trickery]

Warlock is a no-go. If you have some time to waste on a bit of reading, I gave the explanation in the earlier thread that I linked to. Well, the sparknotes version is that I need a backup character just in case my DM finally succeeds in his attempt to break my PC - and as a replacement I want one that has a high AC without armour, can hold their own well enough, and does not depend on DM intervention to make it work. The Darkvision is because the rest of the party all have it and I strongly suspect the DM will come up with a way to penalise me if I'm the only one who lacks it.

Ah, that's a pity. It sounds like your DM is trying to target you, specifically. There's not much to be done about that.

The first thing I'd do is talk to the DM outside of the game if you think he's doing this. It's a big no-no for DMs to target players like this.

If you don't want to do that, I'd personally play a Gnome Abjurer Wizard. There are few things harder to stymie than a gnomish abjurer, and you can fit one into literally any party. But you can do much worse than Monk in that regard.

[Dork_Forge]

Which is unfortunate, but you may be able to work around that. At the 7th hour of a long rest, put the spell on yourself and finish the long rest. You should be able to fit a short rest in there and keep Darkvision as long as your DM is permissive. It lasts for 8 hours which should last you until the next opportunity to reapply it before a short rest. Learned this tactic from another playgrounder.

Casting a spell would interrupt the long rest and the charcter would need to start a new 8 hour rest.

[Dork_Forge]

Have you conisdered going Half Elf? That would give you two floating +1s for Dex and Wis, a +2 for Cha and Darkvision. Depending on which kind of Half Elf you go for (there's variants listed in the SCAG) you can gain some extra racial spellcasting. Are you planning on using Stunning Strike a lot? You could go for Draconic Sorc and it'd give you an AC equivalent to having a +3 Wis if oyu're not going to be using your Wis for much, otherwise I'd take a look at Divine Soul (unless you want to stick with the Shadow theme), a short rest recharge 2d4 to either an attack or save is pretty potent and getting Cleric spells is pretty useful (Bless and Guiding Bolt are stand outs to me besides Healing Word).

[Mitsu]

If your DM is that mean- why not just stop playing with him or at least make Sorlock 2 Hexblade/18 Divine Soul and break his game. It's one of most powerful/versitile/resource and solo effective/broken builds out there.

Another build is Zealot Barbarian 19/1 Level of calss with Wisdom saves proficiency with moderetly WIS and lucky talent to protect your immortality from mind-spells/effects.

There is also Elven Samurai Archer build or Bardlock build that can do everything. Or good old Crossbow Expert Battlemaster or 1 Fighter/Divination Wizard with Lucky feat.

Or PAM Vengeance Paladin using Spear and Shield with 1 level Hexblade dip.

Or Valor Bard 10 with Swift Quiver/3 Assassin levels. Or EK 12/8 Wizard.

If what you are looking for is a build to go vs your mean DM (though of course he always have advantage) I suggest some of best munchkins builds and hold your own vs almost anything 5e can throw at you.

But most of all if he targets you and has some grudge - I suggest to not play with him.

[Trickery]

Casting a spell would interrupt the long rest and the charcter would need to start a new 8 hour rest.

Actually, not according to the rules.


If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting Spells, or similar Adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.

That's the line you're looking for. The player would need to spend one hour on strenuous activity to lose the long rest. That's why you can be on watch and deal with some minor annoyances like wolves, etc. or investigate a noise without losing the long rest.

Unless you interpret it to mean that any fighting, any casting of spells, or one hour of walking would break it. This sentence can be read in two ways.

But I think you just proved the OP's point. Based on what I've read from him about his DM, I wouldn't try it in that DM's campaign.

[Maelynn]

Just so you know- Darkvision is overrated and totally can be skipped.

Just so you know, the rest of the party all have Darkvision - except for one human NPC who's kind of like a follower, but who's on her way to become a lvl 1 DMPC. Normally we go like 'yeah, she lights a torch, moving on' but if I'm the one having to do that, I can already tell you it's going to cost me the use of a hand in combat.

Light as a spell isn't available, unless I were to take it up myself. And there are cantrips I'd much rather have. Besides, a Wood Elf doesn't just have Darkvision, but also protection against charm/sleep that has a chance of keeping me safer.


I'm not sure what to advise... you want an optimized back up, but also want to give multiclass a try, and are down to these 2 options... which, as others have mentioned, aren't very optimized.

In this case, I'd look at 1) which is more fun to me, since optimization isn't the main thing after all, and 2), if you want to optimize, see which betters suits the rest of the party. For example, if you don't have another healer, that 1 level of Druid with Healint Word could be very valuable.

Yeah, I guess it shows I've never optimised before. I feel a bit like the toddler who piled up some sand and proudly calls it a 'sand castle'... xD

We don't have a dedicated healer, no. The Bard and the Ranger can both cast Cure Wounds, the Rogue doesn't have anything, and we have the occasional healing potion. My current PC is a Paladin who also had a bit of healing, so I guess it would be a bit of a loss if I didn't have any healing left at all.

Oh, that reminds me - another thing the Druidmonk has is proficiency with the herbalism kit, so I can make our own healing potions. It's not like I need to save gold for a plate mail any longer. :p


Ah, that's a pity. It sounds like your DM is trying to target you, specifically. There's not much to be done about that.

The first thing I'd do is talk to the DM outside of the game if you think he's doing this. It's a big no-no for DMs to target players like this.

If you don't want to do that, I'd personally play a Gnome Abjurer Wizard. There are few things harder to stymie than a gnomish abjurer, and you can fit one into literally any party. But you can do much worse than Monk in that regard.

I tried talking a while back, but the DM acted like he had no idea what I was talking about. At the time I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but after that his frustration with not being able to down me became worse, the threats that 'he'd get me' continued, and attempts at breaking me increased... he challenged me to a duel with an EK who was so strong he downed me in 4 rounds, and now there's an ambush where I'm alone without my armour (so AC 10), where he ended the session by letting me roll a CON saving throw and then saying everything went dark (no initiative roll, no verbal component to hear, nothing). The way he's been behaving prior to the ambush, with his inquiries about what weapons I had on me and whether or not I was wearing my Cloak of Protection, it's not looking good for my char.

The Wizard sounds nice, but the problem is that the current party has my Paladin as the tank. The only other melee character is a Rogue, the Bard and the Ranger are at range. If I were to move away, the Rogue (and possibly the Bard?) would get the brunt of the attacks and I don't think they'll hold very long. This is also why I discarded my initial idea of going Monk 1 / Ranger 5 - I don't think I can do that to the others.

[Trickery]

I tried talking a while back, but the DM acted like he had no idea what I was talking about. At the time I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but after that his frustration with not being able to down me became worse, the threats that 'he'd get me' continued, and attempts at breaking me increased... he challenged me to a duel with an EK who was so strong he downed me in 4 rounds, and now there's an ambush where I'm alone without my armour (so AC 10), where he ended the session by letting me roll a CON saving throw and then saying everything went dark (no initiative roll, no verbal component to hear, nothing). The way he's been behaving prior to the ambush, with his inquiries about what weapons I had on me and whether or not I was wearing my Cloak of Protection, it's not looking good for my char.

The Wizard sounds nice, but the problem is that the current party has my Paladin as the tank. The only other melee character is a Rogue, the Bard and the Ranger are at range. If I were to move away, the Rogue (and possibly the Bard?) would get the brunt of the attacks and I don't think they'll hold very long. This is also why I discarded my initial idea of going Monk 1 / Ranger 5 - I don't think I can do that to the others.

Got it.

It sounds like you want a self-sufficient character with some healing and tanking ability. Is that accurate?

[Maelynn]

Have you conisdered going Half Elf? That would give you two floating +1s for Dex and Wis, a +2 for Cha and Darkvision. Depending on which kind of Half Elf you go for (there's variants listed in the SCAG) you can gain some extra racial spellcasting. Are you planning on using Stunning Strike a lot? You could go for Draconic Sorc and it'd give you an AC equivalent to having a +3 Wis if oyu're not going to be using your Wis for much, otherwise I'd take a look at Divine Soul (unless you want to stick with the Shadow theme), a short rest recharge 2d4 to either an attack or save is pretty potent and getting Cleric spells is pretty useful (Bless and Guiding Bolt are stand outs to me besides Healing Word).

I'll readily admit I hadn't looked at other races for the sorcmonk, because of the false assumption that a VHuman can get 2 ASI's. Now that this is off the table, I'd have to look into the build differently. Though I might not even bother anymore and just go Druidmonk. -_-


But most of all if he targets you and has some grudge - I suggest to not play with him.

It has crossed my mind, but we've been a pretty tight group for the past 4 years - when our previous DM left 2 years ago, the current one picked up the mantle and we didn't add a new player, because we enjoyed the synergy we had together. I don't want to just toss this group, they're my friends. That's why I want to come up with a character that can hold their own and is relatively safe from being singled out/targeted/ambushed. Frankly, I hope to show that what he's doing is wrong, and have the table see it too by looking at what's happening. That's the only way I feel I can make him realise his error without blowing anything up. I like him as a person, I don't want to snub him just because he plays a 'DM vs player' game rather than a 'DM for the player' one.

And thanks for the suggestions, but they're all geared towards 20. My builds are level 6, so I need to find something that can be decent within that level span.

[Maelynn]

It sounds like you want a self-sufficient character with some healing and tanking ability. Is that accurate?

Unfortunately, there's a difference in what I want and what the party needs.

I want to play a character where I can try out some new things, a class I haven't played yet, like a Monk or a Ranger or even a cool subclass that sounds great. Or just something that I think is awesome - I've been itching to go Druid in 5e, it was my first ever D&D character back in 3.5 and I loved them in WoW... but I worry that a Moon Druid will be even more OP than my current Tiefling Vengeadin with AC 18 (20 with Shield of Faith) and Heavy Armour Mastery (-3 dmg on every physical blow), who apparently incurred the DM's wrath just by staying alive too often.

I need to play a character that doesn't leave the rest of the party on the frontline too much. I feel I need to fill at least part of the gap that my Vengeadin will leave behind, whether that's on the tanking or the healing front. I just don't know.

[Trickery]

Unfortunately, there's a difference in what I want and what the party needs.

I want to play a character where I can try out some new things, a class I haven't played yet, like a Monk or a Ranger or even a cool subclass that sounds great. Or just something that I think is awesome - I've been itching to go Druid in 5e, it was my first ever D&D character back in 3.5 and I loved them in WoW... but I worry that a Moon Druid will be even more OP than my current Tiefling Vengeadin with AC 18 (20 with Shield of Faith) and Heavy Armour Mastery (-3 dmg on every physical blow), who apparently incurred the DM's wrath just by staying alive too often.

I need to play a character that doesn't leave the rest of the party on the frontline too much. I feel I need to fill at least part of the gap that my Vengeadin will leave behind, whether that's on the tanking or the healing front. I just don't know.

I see. If Druids interest you, you can do much worse than just going pure Moon Druid (or Monk 1 / Moon Druid for better wildshape AC). If you pick up Resilient Con and / or Warcaster, you can realistically maintain a spell while engaging in melee combat.

Alternatively, Barbarian will result in lower average AC for beast forms, but has Constitution saving throws baked in and gives you access to Rage, which is nice. A raging bear is like a bull in a china shop, breaking every breakable object in the dungeon. If you go Barbarian 1, I recommend Sentinel to make you a stronger tank. Wildshape forms tend to hit very hard with reaction attacks compared to most characters.

Moon Druid 6, Monk 1 / Moon Druid 5, and Barbarian 1 / Moon Druid 5 are all perfectly serviceable tank builds. These aren't high-damage builds, but their general survivability is top-tier and they bring considerable benefits to the group.

[Waazraath]

Yeah, I guess it shows I've never optimised before. I feel a bit like the toddler who piled up some sand and proudly calls it a 'sand castle'... xD

We don't have a dedicated healer, no. The Bard and the Ranger can both cast Cure Wounds, the Rogue doesn't have anything, and we have the occasional healing potion. My current PC is a Paladin who also had a bit of healing, so I guess it would be a bit of a loss if I didn't have any healing left at all.

Oh, that reminds me - another thing the Druidmonk has is proficiency with the herbalism kit, so I can make our own healing potions. It's not like I need to save gold for a plate mail any longer. :p


In that case: bonus action healing is awesome if somebody is down to 0 hp - get him/her up, without spending your own action. So grab Healing Word instead of Cure wounds. And if you add Goodberry as spell, you can supplement your healing ability. Animal forms can be used for scouting/spionage... I think it can be fun, even though it isn't 100% optimized. Remember though: you are not a tank; you shoudn't be the first on the frontline, unless there is 1 biggie that you can stun, or you have the ki to use dodge a lot.

[OverLordOcelot]

I don't think either MC gives you very much, some of the things you've listed are really worthless. For example, instead of taking Shillelagh for a magic weapon you could just be a 6th level monk and have all of your attacks count as magic weapons. You wouldn't get the D8 damage, but you also don't have to mess around with holding an item and giving up your first bonus action. First level healing isn't that big of a difference, especially since you're looking at self-healing. Two levels of druid gives you wild shape, which is a huge survivability boost.

If you do go for druid, you could do much better spell selection. Cure wounds is a bad choice because you only get 3 piddly d8+3 heals per day that each take an action to cast. Healing word as a bonus action for D4+3 is going to be better for in-combat healing - 5.5 average healing on a bonus action is usually significantly better than 7.5 healing on a regular action. If you want out of combat healing, goodberry is 10 HP per casting and since it has a 24 hour duration you can create some before a long rest and have them the next day. Earth tremor might be OK if you could cast it and use your bonus attacks on a prone enemy, but you can't - I'd ditch that in favor of a ritual that you like so that you can get some use out of ritual caster. Shillelagh's weakness I pointed out above. Primal savagery is only going to be useful on the off-chance that you encounter an enemy immune to physical damage but not acid or who's vulnerable to acid, which is... unlikely (note that if you use it you don't get your bonus unarmed strikes), otherwise your monk attacks will be better. Meanwhile thorn whip sometimes completely messes up a plan (pulling an enemy over an edge or out of a room). I'm not a big fan of faerie fire, the 20' cube always seems to be just a bit too small, but it's not bad. Longstrider is also a good spell choice to boost your crazy monk movement.


Just so you know, the rest of the party all have Darkvision - except for one human NPC who's kind of like a follower, but who's on her way to become a lvl 1 DMPC. Normally we go like 'yeah, she lights a torch, moving on' but if I'm the one having to do that, I can already tell you it's going to cost me the use of a hand in combat.

Aside from the fact that you can just drop a lit torch without it going out, why do you care? You're playing a monk so you're not going to be using a shield, and you fight with unarmed attacks that don't even need one hand free.

[Keravath]

Where are you getting that from?

In my opinion that sounds like the house rule, there is nothing in the book limiting which feats they can pick, it is ok to pick a half feat that includes a stat bump..

Sorry .. I mis-stated what I meant. VHuman can take any FEAT they like whether it increases stats or not. However, a Vhuman can’t take an ASI that bumps stats by 2 at level 1. They get a bonus feat, not an ASI.

[Maelynn]

Moon Druid 6, Monk 1 / Moon Druid 5, and Barbarian 1 / Moon Druid 5 are all perfectly serviceable tank builds. These aren't high-damage builds, but their general survivability is top-tier and they bring considerable benefits to the group.

My previous character was a Barbarian; while I loved playing him, I did notice that it felt a bit MAD having Unarmoured Defence AC off DEX/CON while needing STR for rage attacks. Monk's Unarmoured Defence, on the other hand, works much better not just because it uses the same stats a Druid does, it also carries the Wisdom part over to Wildshape - meaning you get to use your own modifier instead of that of the animal you shape into. If I then were to swap my DEX and WIS stats to be 16 and 18 respectively, I'd be looking at an AC of 14 + animal DEX mod and still have AC 17 in humanoid form. And it wouldn't impact my weapon attacks either, since I can use WIS instead of DEX with Shillelagh to still get that +4.

Only restraining factor here is being level 6 - 1 level in Monk means I get max 5 in Druid, so I don't get to use CR3 beasts yet and don't have magic weapons (and I haven't found anything that says I can use Shillelagh in Wildshape form). Although I could live with that, I suppose. I don't know when we'll level, but surely we eventually will. ;)

I guess it's just a matter of comparing Monk 1 / Druid 5 to Druid 1 / Monk 5.


In that case: bonus action healing is awesome if somebody is down to 0 hp - get him/her up, without spending your own action. So grab Healing Word instead of Cure wounds. And if you add Goodberry as spell, you can supplement your healing ability. Animal forms can be used for scouting/spionage... I think it can be fun, even though it isn't 100% optimized. Remember though: you are not a tank; you shoudn't be the first on the frontline, unless there is 1 biggie that you can stun, or you have the ki to use dodge a lot.

Yes, Healing Word does sound better than Cure Wounds. I don't really see the appeal of Goodberry, though - you can only eat 1 berry per action, so that's a measly 1 hp, and if you're going to spend 10 actions then you might as well take a short rest. I think there are other 1st-level spells that are more useful than this one (like Absorb Elements). However, Druids are free to switch their spells around, so it's not even that important a decision. :)

Huh, I was so focused on the combat part that I completely forgot its uses outside of it. I guess it's because of its limited uses. But that's also why I wanted to be sure I could still put up a fight in humanoid form.


I don't think either MC gives you very much, some of the things you've listed are really worthless. For example, instead of taking Shillelagh for a magic weapon you could just be a 6th level monk and have all of your attacks count as magic weapons. You wouldn't get the D8 damage, but you also don't have to mess around with holding an item and giving up your first bonus action. First level healing isn't that big of a difference, especially since you're looking at self-healing. Two levels of druid gives you wild shape, which is a huge survivability boost.

At 6th level, only unarmed strikes are magic. Not weapons. And a standard magic d8 damage is worth giving up 1 BA, especially since I can still use the others on Flurry.

And 2 levels of Druid doesn't make the build viable anymore - it would cap Monk at 4, leaving me without Extra Attack.


Primal savagery is only going to be useful on the off-chance that you encounter an enemy immune to physical damage but not acid or who's vulnerable to acid, which is... unlikely (note that if you use it you don't get your bonus unarmed strikes), otherwise your monk attacks will be better. Meanwhile thorn whip sometimes completely messes up a plan (pulling an enemy over an edge or out of a room).

Primal Savagery is viable if I want to spend my BA on something like Healing Word. Or even on the first turn when I cast Shillelagh - oh look, two birds one stone. And acid is a decent damage type, what with the relative low number of monsters that are immune/resistant. Just check this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X70jdBX0X0n_5V7stc1_kYERXLNGJIbdjhl3BUbKxQI/edit#gid=0). And it does damage even to monsters that aren't immune to physical damage.

Thorn Whip can work the other way as well, pulling an enemy closer when they're out of reach for melee. We've been ambushed by archers standing on top of a cliff, it would've been great if we could've pulled them down.


Aside from the fact that you can just drop a lit torch without it going out, why do you care? You're playing a monk so you're not going to be using a shield, and you fight with unarmed attacks that don't even need one hand free.

Why do I care... did you even read the things I've written here? I'm worried that the DM will come up with ways to make it hard for me to work around not having Darkvision. I don't want that kind of dependency, so Darkvision is a must-have. I value your opinion and thank you for taking the time to post it, but I don't appreciate someone shooting down my decisions without even being aware of what's going on.

[Mitsu]

I don't want to just toss this group, they're my friends.

If they are your friends then talk to them about your situation and together decide to find new DM. There is no point one should suffer just because DM is an a-hole. Talk to friends, then give DM your feedback as group. If nothing change- just drop that new DM.

[Maelynn]

If they are your friends then talk to them about your situation and together decide to find new DM. There is no point one should suffer just because DM is an a-hole. Talk to friends, then give DM your feedback as group. If nothing change- just drop that new DM.

You don't understand, they're all friends - including the DM. He isn't new to the group, he was a player along with us before the old DM quit and moved to another city. I want to see how the ambush plays out, if he forks it up then I'll be sure to bring up the issue right then and there, but I'm not going to set up friends against another friend.

Besides, this thread is about help with a character build. Regardless of how the next session goes, I want to have a backup character. Please let's just focus on my request instead of telling me to ruin the party we have.

[Nagog]

I'm currently playing a level 10 DrOnk (my favorite term for Druid Monk) and I have 4 druid/6 Monk. I was at 3 Druid for a long time, until I discovered that with a 4th level in Druid will allow me to Wild Shape into a Swarm of Rot Worms, which sounded quite fun, as well as the ASI. I've had boatloads of fun with him, and the SADness of relying on Shillelagh is welcome. Druid Area Control spells are great for Way of the Open Hand (10 foot shove and Spike Growth makes a great combo), and a Monk's mobility allows you to overcome any difficult terrain your spells may create. My vote is for DrOnk over SOnk

Also, the 2nd level Druid Spell Healing Spirit is super nice for extended fights. 1d6 healing/round, lasts for a minute. So for one 2nd level slot and a moment of your time, you get 10d6 healing.

[djreynolds]

Hex blade is something to consider, they get the shield spell and hex and can take protection from evil.

And are short resters like your monk

You'd get 2 spells a short rest, perfect for hex and the shield spell, 13 charisma isn't expensive

[OverLordOcelot]

Yes, Healing Word does sound better than Cure Wounds. I don't really see the appeal of Goodberry, though - you can only eat 1 berry per action, so that's a measly 1 hp, and if you're going to spend 10 actions then you might as well take a short rest. I think there are other 1st-level spells that are more useful than this one (like Absorb Elements). However, Druids are free to switch their spells around, so it's not even that important a decision. :)

The appeal of goodberry is that you get 20-40 points of healing per day as opposed to 2d8+3 or 2d4+3 with your other options. Using cure wounds on yourself in combat outside of really low levels is a waste of actions, so the fact that goodberry is out of combat healing is mostly irrelevant. 10 actions is one minute and you can move while taking them, a short rest is sixty minutes and you generally need to sit in one place. There are plenty of circumstances in a normal game where you have a minute to eat a stack of goodberries while walking but don't have sixty minutes to sit down and take a nap.


At 6th level, only unarmed strikes are magic. Not weapons. And a standard magic d8 damage is worth giving up 1 BA, especially since I can still use the others on Flurry.

At 6th level, you do the same damage with unarmed strikes as with a quarterstaff, so there's no reason to use weapons from an optimization standpoint; your 'Not weapons' condition is equivalent to 'if I play non-optimally'. One extra damage per attack on average is not bad, but not nearly as good when you have to give up an attack every combat for it, and really isn't worth dropping an entire level into another class to get it.


Primal Savagery is viable if I want to spend my BA on something like Healing Word. Or even on the first turn when I cast Shillelagh - oh look, two birds one stone. And acid is a decent damage type, what with the relative low number of monsters that are immune/resistant. Just check this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X70jdBX0X0n_5V7stc1_kYERXLNGJIbdjhl3BUbKxQI/edit#gid=0). And it does damage even to monsters that aren't immune to physical damage.

No, it's simply not. Primal savagery is one attack at 3+Prof to hit, 2D10 damage. Using attacks are two at 4+prof to hit for D6+4 damage as a straight monk, or with shillelagh D8+4. Even ignoring that your hit chance is higher if you don't use the spell, PS is 9 average damage while attacks 15 average damage, which a higher floor, same ceiling, and less variability (with shillelagh you go up to 17 average damage). Not sure why you linked a spreadsheet as a rebuttal when it proves my point; zero of the published monsters are vulnerable to acid damage (doubling acid damage would make PS better than an attack), and only one is resistant to magical bludgeoning (if something is resistant to magical bludgeoning but not acid damage then PS is better than an attack).

Again, if you want it for some RP reason the go to town, but you asked for optimization advice. Primal savagery is simply worse than doing attacks for this character unless one of these three circumstances apply: 1. You only get one attack, not a regular attack action. 2. The enemy is vulnerable to acid but not to magical bludgeoning 3. The enemy is resistant or immune to magical bludgeoning but not acid. That's such a rare set of circumstances that I don't think using a cantrip slot for it is worthwhile.


Why do I care... did you even read the things I've written here? I'm worried that the DM will come up with ways to make it hard for me to work around not having Darkvision. I don't want that kind of dependency, so Darkvision is a must-have. I value your opinion and thank you for taking the time to post it, but I don't appreciate someone shooting down my decisions without even being aware of what's going on.

I read what you've written, and absolutely none of what you've written included anything about why you care about having to hold a torch on a monk. Carrying a torch doesn't interfere with your abilities the way it does with a 2-handed or sword and board user. Again, you asked for optimization advice - if you want darkvision for RP reasons then go for it, but if it's because 'I would have to use a hand to hold a torch' that limitation doesn't interfere with a monk fighting as a monk.

[Maelynn]

I think I'm starting to understand what's happening here. Using the word 'optimising' gave me far more than I bargained for. It seems to me that around the playground, 'optimising' means perfectioning in order to get the highest damage output regardless of everything else.
I don't need a perfect character, I want one to be as good as possible within set parameters. And it seems they make it hard to truly 'optimise' a build, so there's a conflict of interest. I thought I had been clear enough about these parameters, but it could be that I took information I've given in the previous thread a little for granted in this one. And that's where the misunderstandings started. Mae culpa.

Things like Darkvision aren't for RP reasons, but more to prevent the DM from making life hard for my new character the way he has done for my current one. It's the very reason I now want a character that can get a high AC without armour - I really don't enjoy being separated from the party, without armour (so at AC 10), and ambushed. This tailoring to my specific needs already makes it different from a pure optimised character, and I was hoping to be able to make a choice between the builds I posted.

Since technically, my question was for opinions on a Monk multiclass build - suggesting to just go full Monk is therefore not what I asked and feels as though I'm not heard. I do appreciate the feedback though, as it had made me realise that a Monk relies quite a bit on their ki and the buildup they get from pure Monk levels. So for a Monk, it's actually rather detrimental to multiclass. Funnily enough, I originally had the idea to use 1 level of Monk and their Unarmoured Defence to buff another class - initially a Ranger. I didn't mean to go so far into Monk, but it developed that way. After some more deliberation and some insight from people here, I'm more inclined to go with Druid, because a) the Revised Ranger doesn't seem to sync well with the Monk abilities and b) I just love Druids.

So let me ask you this. If I were to go Monk 1 / Druid 5, what would be things to look out for to make it better?

A few things I already considered:

- putting WIS at 18 to make the most of Unarmoured Defence in wildshape and get extra spells (so looking at STR 8, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 10)
- use Shillelagh on quarterstaff to get +4 damage modifier instead of DEX's +3 as well as magic property
- Druid level first for INT/WIS saving throws, since those are potentially more harmful than STR and my DEX is decent enough without proficiency
- a friend argued that, since Darkvision only works in wildshape if the animal innately has it, I might as well go Ghostwise to get the telepathy so I can communicate in wildshape (still mulling that one over, I fear the loss of Darkvision but Ghostwise Halfling does have some nice protective traits)
- few spells that come to mind: Shillelagh, Primal Savagery, Thorn Whip and Spike Growth seem a nice combo, Absorb Elements, Healing Word, Erupting Earth, Healing Spirit, Moonbeam (Barkskin feels rather useless with a base AC of 14+animal dex mod)

Also, what really made me like this idea:

- unarmed strikes are definitely possible in wildshape, since they encompass moves like headbutt, kick, or even backhand b!tch slap
- an Ape has opposable thumbs and allows me to use a quarterstaff, so with Shillelagh I'm looking at 1d8+4 as well as a bonus unarmed for 1d4+3 - and ofc the magic property. So until I get the 6th Druid level and can use CR 2 animals as well as having wildshape attacks be considered magic, this would be a nice option (along with the obvious Dire Wolf and Brown Bear choices)

[PeteNutButter]

I think I'm starting to understand what's happening here. Using the word 'optimising' gave me far more than I bargained for. It seems to me that around the playground, 'optimising' means perfectioning in order to get the highest damage output regardless of everything else.
I don't need a perfect character, I want one to be as good as possible within set parameters. And it seems they make it hard to truly 'optimise' a build, so there's a conflict of interest. I thought I had been clear enough about these parameters, but it could be that I took information I've given in the previous thread a little for granted in this one. And that's where the misunderstandings started. Mae culpa.

Things like Darkvision aren't for RP reasons, but more to prevent the DM from making life hard for my new character the way he has done for my current one. It's the very reason I now want a character that can get a high AC without armour - I really don't enjoy being separated from the party, without armour (so at AC 10), and ambushed. This tailoring to my specific needs already makes it different from a pure optimised character, and I was hoping to be able to make a choice between the builds I posted.

Since technically, my question was for opinions on a Monk multiclass build - suggesting to just go full Monk is therefore not what I asked and feels as though I'm not heard. I do appreciate the feedback though, as it had made me realise that a Monk relies quite a bit on their ki and the buildup they get from pure Monk levels. So for a Monk, it's actually rather detrimental to multiclass. Funnily enough, I originally had the idea to use 1 level of Monk and their Unarmoured Defence to buff another class - initially a Ranger. I didn't mean to go so far into Monk, but it developed that way. After some more deliberation and some insight from people here, I'm more inclined to go with Druid, because a) the Revised Ranger doesn't seem to sync well with the Monk abilities and b) I just love Druids.

So let me ask you this. If I were to go Monk 1 / Druid 5, what would be things to look out for to make it better?

A few things I already considered:

- putting WIS at 18 to make the most of Unarmoured Defence in wildshape and get extra spells (so looking at STR 8, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 10)
- use Shillelagh on quarterstaff to get +4 damage modifier instead of DEX's +3 as well as magic property
- Druid level first for INT/WIS saving throws, since those are potentially more harmful than STR and my DEX is decent enough without proficiency
- a friend argued that, since Darkvision only works in wildshape if the animal innately has it, I might as well go Ghostwise to get the telepathy so I can communicate in wildshape (still mulling that one over, I fear the loss of Darkvision but Ghostwise Halfling does have some nice protective traits)
- few spells that come to mind: Shillelagh, Primal Savagery, Thorn Whip and Spike Growth seem a nice combo, Absorb Elements, Healing Word, Erupting Earth, Healing Spirit, Moonbeam (Barkskin feels rather useless with a base AC of 14+animal dex mod)

Also, what really made me like this idea:

- unarmed strikes are definitely possible in wildshape, since they encompass moves like headbutt, kick, or even backhand b!tch slap
- an Ape has opposable thumbs and allows me to use a quarterstaff, so with Shillelagh I'm looking at 1d8+4 as well as a bonus unarmed for 1d4+3 - and ofc the magic property. So until I get the 6th Druid level and can use CR 2 animals as well as having wildshape attacks be considered magic, this would be a nice option (along with the obvious Dire Wolf and Brown Bear choices)

Generally, you are better off just punching with the ape, since he has multiattack. Two punches at 1d6+3 are better than one staff at 1d8+4. Multiattack is not extra attack, so you RAW can't use a staff twice. You'd need 5 or more monk levels to pull that off.

The primary reason to dip monk on moon druid is for the AC boost. The Ape example puts you at AC 16, which is still pretty crap AC. If you go moon druid, there are better animal options, but your AC will never be your key survival mechanic since most animals won't have more than 16 dex. Your hp are how you stay alive as a moon druid.

Is Spore druid on the table? They make a good combo with a heavier monk build.

[KorvinStarmast]

The only monk/druid I did was a levl 11 one shot, so I went Monk 1 Druid 10 wood elf. I'd have taken a bit more Monk if I hadn't wanted to mess around with being able to wild shap into an Elemental. :)

I am not sure what you want out of your monk, bit IMO your instinct to go full bore Druid is a good one.

Why wood elf? a bit more foot speed, dark vision, and if you are tactically minded, pay attention to how mask of the wild helps you hide.

You also have long bow proficiency in case you need some ranged attacks now and again.

If you ever get to where you choose a Monk "Way" your increased Wisdomo makes any spell save DC's versus your Monkness more difficult, which maked the knock prone or.

Me? I'd suggest sticking with Monk 1 Druid X. Not to mention that at level 5, you can now and again summon a pack of 8 wolves. :)

[Trickery]

Monk 1 / Druid 5, moon druid I'm guessing, there are some key things to consider.

Your wildshape damage will be better than your unarmed strikes or shillelagh, so you may as well just use wildshape.

You still have to make concentration saving throws while using wildshape. For this reason, Resilient Con is extremely helpful. As a Druid, your spells are your biggest contribution to the party, and you don't want to drop those.

You technically don't lose any features, darkvision included, while changing shapes. However, Ghostwise halfling is still a great choice. And you can simply create a light source or cast Darkvision when you need it. It isn't concentration and lasts 8 hours.

Spell choice is important. Even though you can change spells, you want to be sure you have a good set prepared at any time. Some spells that are generally useful include Conjure Animals (summon maximum number unless you have a good reason not to), Sleet Storm, Healing Spirit, Entangle, Detect Magic, and Warding Wind (seriously underrated spell).

[Justin Sane]

Except [Divine Favor] says 'weapon attack'. And while a Monk's unarmed strikes are powerful, they still aren't considered a weapon. This means that only my quarterstaff attacks benefit from it.Small nitpick: Unarmed Strikes are Weapon Attacks. See https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/951895470967672832?lang=en, https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf#page=10

[Maelynn]

Generally, you are better off just punching with the ape, since he has multiattack. Two punches at 1d6+3 are better than one staff at 1d8+4. Multiattack is not extra attack, so you RAW can't use a staff twice. You'd need 5 or more monk levels to pull that off.

If I use a quarterstaff, I get an unarmed strike as a bonus action because it's a Monk weapon. I was under the impression that 1d8+4 and 1d4+3 did more damage than two 1d6+3 attacks. Did I miscalculate?


The primary reason to dip monk on moon druid is for the AC boost. The Ape example puts you at AC 16, which is still pretty crap AC. If you go moon druid, there are better animal options, but your AC will never be your key survival mechanic since most animals won't have more than 16 dex. Your hp are how you stay alive as a moon druid.

True, and it's why I made sure I had CON up to 14. I had looked at Vhuman, dropping Charisma to 8 so I can get 13 Constitution and then pick Resilient: Constitution as my bonus feat... but I'm not sure. Aside from that feat, Vhumans bring no perks to the table the way a Wood Elf or Ghostwise Halfling does.


Is Spore druid on the table? They make a good combo with a heavier monk build.

Afraid not. The DM made an exception for the Revised Ranger, but I don't want to risk him being stricter. I'm sticking to official publishings only, and even then I think some are a bit too far-off (like Aarakocra, Tortle, etc).


I am not sure what you want out of your monk, bit IMO your instinct to go full bore Druid is a good one.

Well, like I said the initial idea was just to take a dip into Monk to get Unarmoured Defence and some benefits with unarmed strikes for bonus actions, as well as always being 'armed' should I ever find myself without weapons. I pondered taking 2 levels just so I had some ki points, but tbh at that stage it's a measly 2 points that really make the 2nd level not worth it compared to what I'd get from another level in something like Druid.


Why wood elf? a bit more foot speed, dark vision, and if you are tactically minded, pay attention to how mask of the wild helps you hide.

You also have long bow proficiency in case you need some ranged attacks now and again.

Yes, this is also why I'm very much in favour of Wood Elf. I'm just trying to see if I'm not too fixated on it, so I need to compare it to Ghostwise Halfling - or even the Vhuman with the option to trade off 2 Charisma for Resilient: Constitution.

Me? I'd suggest sticking with Monk 1 Druid X. Not to mention that at level 5, you can now and again summon a pack of 8 wolves. :)[/QUOTE]


Your wildshape damage will be better than your unarmed strikes or shillelagh, so you may as well just use wildshape.

Agreed. I just liked the idea of having an alternative option, perhaps had to chuckle at the idea of going a bit Rafiki, but if the wildshape attacks are better then I'm going to stick with those.


You still have to make concentration saving throws while using wildshape. For this reason, Resilient Con is extremely helpful. As a Druid, your spells are your biggest contribution to the party, and you don't want to drop those.

Very true, but the only way I can get that feat - other than by waiting 3 more levels till I get Druid level 8 - is by going Vhuman. Any other race, I need to go for the +2 WIS ASI in order to get that up to 18. I don't see Vhuman being better than the other races.


You technically don't lose any features, darkvision included, while changing shapes.

No, Darkvision is only possible if the animal you shape into has it listed on its statblock, like a Badger. The 4th bullet on p67 specifically states it.


Some spells that are generally useful include Conjure Animals (summon maximum number unless you have a good reason not to), Sleet Storm, Healing Spirit, Entangle, Detect Magic, and Warding Wind (seriously underrated spell).

Sleet Storm - this would also hamper our Rogue, as well as myself if I were to go wildshape. What makes it so good?

[Trickery]

That's lame about darkvision. Never noticed that before, but it opens up arguments for players to lose all kinds of features while wildshaped. I hate it when WotC does something thoughtless like that. But it makes me consider Ghostwise Halfling and even more appealing choice since you'll be wildshaped much of the time.

Why do you need Wisdom 18? Just because you want to? Do you need the extra spells? If not, I think a Moon Druid will get more mileage out of Resilient Con.

[Maelynn]

Small nitpick: Unarmed Strikes are Weapon Attacks. See https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/951895470967672832?lang=en, https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf#page=10

Oh, thanks for pointing that out. He's right in saying it's confusing.


Why do you need Wisdom 18? Just because you want to? Do you need the extra spells? If not, I think a Moon Druid will get more mileage out of Resilient Con.

- higher AC, both in wildshape and in humanoid form
- higher DC against saving throws for any of my spells

The extra prepared spell is a nice bonus, but not as important.

[Trickery]

- higher AC, both in wildshape and in humanoid form
- higher DC against saving throws for any of my spells

The extra prepared spell is a nice bonus, but not as important.

I suspect Resilient Con is more important than those on a Moon Druid since you'll be in melee often, but that's your prerogative.

[tieren]

FYI the circle of spores druid is official published content in the Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica now.

edit:
And would be really neat with some martial arts thrown in, temp hp are nice and a reaction attack every round you are in melee using your halo of spores would be a nice boost.

[PeteNutButter]

If I use a quarterstaff, I get an unarmed strike as a bonus action because it's a Monk weapon. I was under the impression that 1d8+4 and 1d4+3 did more damage than two 1d6+3 attacks. Did I miscalculate?

True, and it's why I made sure I had CON up to 14. I had looked at Vhuman, dropping Charisma to 8 so I can get 13 Constitution and then pick Resilient: Constitution as my bonus feat... but I'm not sure. Aside from that feat, Vhumans bring no perks to the table the way a Wood Elf or Ghostwise Halfling does.

Afraid not. The DM made an exception for the Revised Ranger, but I don't want to risk him being stricter. I'm sticking to official publishings only, and even then I think some are a bit too far-off (like Aarakocra, Tortle, etc).


For one, the staff (shillelagh) takes an extra bonus action to set up before you wildshape, which can actually be a big problem. It comes out to be an extra 1 point of damage, but it's hogging your bonus action, which you won't even have until round 3. You could be using that bonus action to ram someone with a flaming sphere or do other useful actions that don't require setup rounds.

That spell you should be concentrating on, is why VHuman (resilient con/warcaster) is so worth it for a moon druid. Moon druids frankly don't bring enough to the table if they aren't starting most fights off casting a concentration spell before wading in. Spell + beast is where they shine. If you lose your spell once you are in form, you are either out of luck or have to break form to recast and re-wild shape, which is time and resources lost. Anything you can take to boost your concentration/con save is worth it. The higher you go up in level, the more this is true.

[KorvinStarmast]

vHuman Monk/Druid at level 6 (If you started out with a monk)
s d c i w ch : 8 15-13-10-15-10 feat = Resiliant Con, toss in 2 +1's.
8p-16p-14p-10-16-10 add +2 W ASI
8-16-14p-10-18-10. (You can drop Ch to 8 and make Str 10, I tend to do that for monks, YMMV).

AC 17 unarmored, and the various bonuses as applied to your various wild shapes.

If you start Druid, save proficiencies change but your con save proficiency helps you with concentration checks.
At lower levels, war caster does a better job than Resilient does, as shown here. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/130705/22566)
https://i.stack.imgur.com/UOcKY.png

The grap in this answer (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/130722/22566) illustrates it pretty well.

[Maelynn]

FYI the circle of spores druid is official published content in the Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica now.

Oh, I see. I hadn't considered Ravnica (or Eberron) since they're completely different settings, but it's good to keep in mind. :)


For one, the staff (shillelagh) takes an extra bonus action to set up before you wildshape, which can actually be a big problem. It comes out to be an extra 1 point of damage, but it's hogging your bonus action, which you won't even have until round 3. You could be using that bonus action to ram someone with a flaming sphere or do other useful actions that don't require setup rounds.

That spell you should be concentrating on, is why VHuman (resilient con/warcaster) is so worth it for a moon druid. Moon druids frankly don't bring enough to the table if they aren't starting most fights off casting a concentration spell before wading in. Spell + beast is where they shine. If you lose your spell once you are in form, you are either out of luck or have to break form to recast and re-wild shape, which is time and resources lost. Anything you can take to boost your concentration/con save is worth it. The higher you go up in level, the more this is true.

So it's mostly the action economy that makes it the worse choice, I understand. In that case I think I'll still keep the cantrip, but save it for enemies that have resistance/immunity to nonmagical damage. I'm not enough of a caster to rely on spells alone, and it's still 1 level until wildshape attacks become magic. Unless there's another cantrip that's a musthave and worth the lack of magic attacks?

Flaming Sphere does sound like a good one. Along with Moonbeam and Call Lightning, what other concentration spells do you think are good for wildshape? I won't need Barkskin with my AC, so I can ditch that.

Also, I was under the impression that the ability to spend a spell slot for self-healing was also very valuable, so using them on spells is careful consideration. Or is the self-healing overrated, since you can use wildshape twice per short rest anyway?


<big-ass graph>

Well, this just shows how bad I am at theorycrafting and optimising... Thanks for posting this, and also for the link explaining it a bit in-depth. I think Warcaster would be better if I could make use of the feat's other aspects as well, but for a Moon Druid it seems that only the advantage is worth it. And in that case Resilient is indeed better.

Confound you, you're making a good case for Vhuman even though I have that in 3rd place, after Wood Elf and Ghostwise Halfling respectively. :p

[PeteNutButter]

Oh, I see. I hadn't considered Ravnica (or Eberron) since they're completely different settings, but it's good to keep in mind. :)
Definitely best fit for your original concept. It's a martial druid without wild shape.


So it's mostly the action economy that makes it the worse choice, I understand. In that case I think I'll still keep the cantrip, but save it for enemies that have resistance/immunity to nonmagical damage. I'm not enough of a caster to rely on spells alone, and it's still 1 level until wildshape attacks become magic. Unless there's another cantrip that's a musthave and worth the lack of magic attacks?

Flaming Sphere does sound like a good one. Along with Moonbeam and Call Lightning, what other concentration spells do you think are good for wildshape? I won't need Barkskin with my AC, so I can ditch that.

Healing Spirit! It's amazing, and keeps you in form. Spend one slot on it and you'll be going strong all fight.


Also, I was under the impression that the ability to spend a spell slot for self-healing was also very valuable, so using them on spells is careful consideration. Or is the self-healing overrated, since you can use wildshape twice per short rest anyway?

The healing there isn't that great. It's nice in a pinch, but you have to use up high level slots to really save you from getting knocked out of form. Healing Spirit, if you don't mind being defensive, is a way better option for both you and the rest of the team. They can pass through your space and get healed as well. It's obscene to the point of being banned/nerfed a lot at tables.

Also yes, VHuman is by far the most optimized race for moon druid. Play what you want though.

[OctaviOz]

Unfortunately, there's a difference in what I want and what the party needs.

I want to play a character where I can try out some new things, a class I haven't played yet, like a Monk or a Ranger or even a cool subclass that sounds great. Or just something that I think is awesome - I've been itching to go Druid in 5e, it was my first ever D&D character back in 3.5 and I loved them in WoW... but I worry that a Moon Druid will be even more OP than my current Tiefling Vengeadin with AC 18 (20 with Shield of Faith) and Heavy Armour Mastery (-3 dmg on every physical blow), who apparently incurred the DM's wrath just by staying alive too often.

I need to play a character that doesn't leave the rest of the party on the frontline too much. I feel I need to fill at least part of the gap that my Vengeadin will leave behind, whether that's on the tanking or the healing front. I just don't know.

Hey Maelynn, I've noted it's been suggested a few time (this thread and previous) but based on what you've posted here any reason you don't like the cleric dip?
- Wis primary stat reduces MADness
- Very front loaded class that gett maximum bang for buck at level 1-2-3 (depending on how deep you want to go). Esp compared to Sorc or Druid at level 1.
- Too meet your stated objectives I would probaly go for light. Warding flare is equivalent to Shield (Amazing for survivability) and you get access to all the normal cleric goodies, Bless/Healing Word etc etc. If you want to go deeper into cleric, Trickery could also be amazing with Invoce Duplicity (2nd) and Mirror Image (3rd - non-concentration!).

As far as race goes, esp considering your stated need for dark vision, Wood Elf is an easy pick for stat-synergies and nice save bonuses etc.

This build would meet your stated requirements
1. Multi-class monk build
2. Decently optimised
3. Survivable on the front line
4. LOTs of options to maximise action economy and effectiveness. Can easily switch between aggressive offense and hunker-down defense (try hitting a dodging (bonus action) monk/cleric with warding flare - and possibly spritual armour up)
5. Has dark vision

Not sure that it would make the DM any happier and you will probably still get targeted . . . but hey . . . at lest you will have a ****on of fun every combat.

[Maelynn]

Well truthfully, I was quick to discard Cleric because it felt that their heavy armour and martial weapons were quite the opposite of a Monk. Now that I've taken a closer look at it, I must say there's a few domains that don't seem to work that way anymore.

Trickery does seem nice, especially if paired with Elven Accuracy. In this case the level 6 is a bit of a hurdle, though, because if I take more than 1 level it means that I can't get the Monk's Extra Attack yet until we level up. And if I would decide to go with Trickery, then I should go for at least 2 levels to get Invoke Duplicity.

I think it would be a great combo starting at 7-8. :)

[KorvinStarmast]

Confound you, you're making a good case for Vhuman even though I have that in 3rd place, after Wood Elf and Ghostwise Halfling respectively. :p Those are both great choices, my love of feats at level 1 is a personal bias. Your two choices would be great. .

[OctaviOz]

Well truthfully, I was quick to discard Cleric because it felt that their heavy armour and martial weapons were quite the opposite of a Monk. Now that I've taken a closer look at it, I must say there's a few domains that don't seem to work that way anymore.

Trickery does seem nice, especially if paired with Elven Accuracy. In this case the level 6 is a bit of a hurdle, though, because if I take more than 1 level it means that I can't get the Monk's Extra Attack yet until we level up. And if I would decide to go with Trickery, then I should go for at least 2 levels to get Invoke Duplicity.

I think it would be a great combo starting at 7-8. :)

IMO both would be strong. Like most classes, they have the option of being played very differently to their normal "archtype" If you are considering play past level 6, dont mind dipping an extra 1-2 levels in cleric, and really want to go elven accuracy then Trickery would be my choice. Otherise light. Based on what you've said about your DM I would probably go Alert, or Lucky feats over elven accuracy if you want to take a feat over a stat bump.

Have fun choosing and you never know, maybe the DM doesn't really have a death wish for your character . . .