Fighter/Kensai/Weapon Master

[paladinn]

Theorycrafting here.. The original Kensai (from 1e) seemed as much if not more a fighter than a monk (but then, Oriental Adventures had a lot of cross-pollenation). In 5e there is no real option for a fighter to be a "weapon master" (i.e. "the world's greatest swordsman").

Could the kensai subclass be adapted to the fighter class to provide that option? Likely without all the ki stuff. What would it look like?

Thoughts?

[gkathellar]

What's missing from the fighter that keeps it from qualifying as a "greatest swordsman" type of character already? Is it just the inability to specialize in one particular type of weapon, or is there something else? What do you envision when you say "greatest swordsman?"

[paladinn]

What's missing from the fighter that keeps it from qualifying as a "greatest swordsman" type of character already? Is it just the inability to specialize in one particular type of weapon, or is there something else? What do you envision when you say "greatest swordsman?"

Right now you can take duelist, GWF, etc. as a fighting style. That qualifies you to handle all such weapons competently. When you take a 2nd style, I don't believe it lets you "double up" on your existing style. Then there are feats for dual wielder, GWM, PAM, Crossbow Expert, etc. that build different features onto your proficiency. The "Weapons Master" feat only gives you proficiency in 4 weapons that you don't normally have.

I'm thinking in terms of a fighter who specializes in a particular weapon, say a rapier or longsword or warhammer, etc. Looking at the kensai features, I think a lot of them would apply to a fighter who wanted to fine-tune his/her focus.

In 3x, a fighter could take a zillion possible feats to become the ultimate master of a weapon. No one wants feat-bloat in 5e; but I wish there were an option to set a fighter apart with skill with one particular weapon.

[darknite]

There were some proposed feats that narrowed in on some weapons styles in one of the older UAs, as I recall. However, there's nothing keeping a player from making a 'greatest swordmaster' using the available mechanics. Just don't expect to be that without getting to 20th level Fighter (4 attacks, baby!).

[paladinn]

There were some proposed feats that narrowed in on some weapons styles in one of the older UAs, as I recall. However, there's nothing keeping a player from making a 'greatest swordmaster' using the available mechanics. Just don't expect to be that without getting to 20th level Fighter (4 attacks, baby!).

Like I said, looking at the kensai monk subclass, there are some features there that could be adapted. In the old 1e Oriental Adventures, the kensai was very much the weapons master, "my sword is an extension of my body" character. I guess that's what I'm trying to emulate Without being a monk.

[gkathellar]

Okay, so you specifically want the ability to only be good at one thing. I can see how the fighter might not be doing it for you, then - this edition's fighter is very much a master-of-arms.

Anyway, porting kensei over directly would require you to redo a lot. Fighters get five subclass features, as opposed to the monk's four. Even looking at the monk's features, a lot of them wouldn't port well. Agile Parry is currently geared around unarmed attacks, which I suppose could be changed, but. Deft Strike and Sharpen the Blade both drain ki, and fighters have no cognate resource you could price those features with. It's not that you couldn't use kensei as inspiration for a fighter's version, but you'd be creating something new.

[paladinn]

Okay, so you specifically want the ability to only be good at one thing. I can see how the fighter might not be doing it for you, then - this edition's fighter is very much a master-of-arms.

Anyway, porting kensei over directly would require you to redo a lot. Fighters get five subclass features, as opposed to the monk's four. Even looking at the monk's features, a lot of them wouldn't port well. Agile Parry is currently geared around unarmed attacks, which I suppose could be changed, but. Deft Strike and Sharpen the Blade both drain ki, and fighters have no cognate resource you could price those features with. It's not that you couldn't use kensei as inspiration for a fighter's version, but you'd be creating something new.

I don't think it's a matter of being "only good at one thing." A fighter is still proficient with all weapons. I'd just like the option to be "really, Really good" with one weapon. Thor uses a hammer; he's proficient with swords, axes, etc., but the hammer is his signature weapon. Drzzt (sp) uses scimitars. Aragorn uses a bastard/longsword. Legolas uses a bow and double-daggers. If I wanted to resemble Hawkeye, I'd want to be the ultimate archer. How could I do this?

[paladinn]

I don't think it's a matter of being "only good at one thing." A fighter is still proficient with all weapons. I'd just like the option to be "really, Really good" with one weapon. Thor uses a hammer; he's proficient with swords, axes, etc., but the hammer is his signature weapon. Drzzt (sp) uses scimitars. Aragorn uses a bastard/longsword. Legolas uses a bow and double-daggers. If I wanted to resemble Hawkeye, I'd want to be the ultimate archer. How could I do this?

Thinking in text.. How about a feat called "Signature Weapon"? Pick one (and only one) specific weapon type (i.e. longsword, longbow, etc.) When you make attack roles, either a) you always have advantage or b) you double your proficiency bonus.

Doable or OP or ?

[Sam113097]

Flavor-wise, the Battlemaster subclass has enough flexibility with maneuvers that you can build a fighter that can achieve incredible feats with their sword, bow, etc.

[paladinn]

Flavor-wise, the Battlemaster subclass has enough flexibility with maneuvers that you can build a fighter that can achieve incredible feats with their sword, bow, etc.

I'm not a big fan of the Battlemaster's superiority dice mechanic.. or most of the other bolt-on mechanics out there.

[GlenSmash!]

There were some proposed feats that narrowed in on some weapons styles in one of the older UAs, as I recall. However, there's nothing keeping a player from making a 'greatest swordmaster' using the available mechanics. Just don't expect to be that without getting to 20th level Fighter (4 attacks, baby!).

I loved some of those feats. Fell Handed made your lower die roll from Advantage matter, at I thought that was a really cool concept.

[unusualsuspect]

Thinking in text.. How about a feat called "Signature Weapon"? Pick one (and only one) specific weapon type (i.e. longsword, longbow, etc.) When you make attack roles, either a) you always have advantage or b) you double your proficiency bonus.

Doable or OP or ?

Extremely OP. Both of em. Double proficiency moreso, but yeah - super OP.

[paladinn]

Extremely OP. Both of em. Double proficiency moreso, but yeah - super OP.

What would be more acceptable for a feat? In 5e, feats aren't supposed to be just a +1 bonus. I want to make it worth skipping an ASI.

[GlenSmash!]

What would be more acceptable for a feat? In 5e, feats aren't supposed to be just a +1 bonus. I want to make it worth skipping an ASI.

Something like these https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/dnd/ua-feats-v1.pdf?

[Fable Wright]

What would be more acceptable for a feat? In 5e, feats aren't supposed to be just a +1 bonus. I want to make it worth skipping an ASI.

Here's the question you need to ask:

What's the difference, in your mind, between a 5th level greatsword master fighter and an 11th level generalist fighter? What can the 5th level character do that the 11th level one can't that makes him a 'weapon master'?

One of the better examples of a kensei in recent memory was the final fight of Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice. He had no special techniques that were unique to him, and he didn't even stick with one weapon. Or even only melee weapons. All he had were a moveset that covered each style's weaknesses, and the raw attack/damage to take down all comers. He was simply the highest level fighting man on the island: the kensei.

If you try to emulate that with feats, all you get are feats that let you act as though you were higher level, which is obviously going to be overpowered. What you want are feats that define a playstyle that make you unique from NPCs, like Polearm Master, Great Weapon Fighter, etc... that NPCs can't get ANYWAYS.

What are you looking for that isn't already there?

[paladinn]

Something like these https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/dnd/ua-feats-v1.pdf?

Kinda like that, yeah..