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View Full Version : Is anyone actually forbidding CoDzillas in their game?



Freelance Henchman
2007-10-10, 11:31 AM
How bad is the CoDzilla phenomenon really in actual games? Just interested.

Flawless
2007-10-10, 11:34 AM
Well, in our games druids have to use the shapeshift variant from PhII and there're no clercs, just Favoured Souls. We've had no problems since then.

Quietus
2007-10-10, 11:38 AM
I wouldn't have any problems if a cleric DID decide to go CoDzilla in one of my games on a regular basis. The catch, of course, is that the easier the typical fights become as a result of this, the harder to fights they run into later are.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-10-10, 11:43 AM
How bad is the CoDzilla phenomenon really in actual games? Just interested.
Divine casters are usually necessary in parties to heal and buff, so CoDzilla isn't prohibited, or even severely nerfed, in the games I see.

A few small balances usually take care of the abuses-
Ban Natural Spell, remove the Heavy Armor proficiency for Clerics, and ban DMM.


The thing is "CoDzilla" as a term is a bit of an exagerration by people on internet forums-places where "theoretical optimization" and munchkining tend to abound.

In most campaigns, clerics are hardly game-breaking...especially when Red Fighter needs Healing Badly!

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-10, 12:16 PM
Is anyone actually forbidding Clerics and Druids in their games? Certainly. I know the Tempest Stormwind has removed the vancian casters from his game pretty much entirely.


Divine casters are usually necessary in parties to heal and buff

That's just plain not true. Healing in combat has never been an essential role in 3.5e. And healing out of combat isn't exactly very expensive or hard to accomplish. Heck, even the clerics heal with the wands to save their spell slots.

Indon
2007-10-10, 12:19 PM
My group generally doesn't play CoDzillas.

Clerics and Druids are played frequently, though.

AKA_Bait
2007-10-10, 12:24 PM
That's just plain not true. Healing in combat has never been an essential role in 3.5e. And healing out of combat isn't exactly very expensive or hard to accomplish. Heck, even the clerics heal with the wands to save their spell slots.

That entirely depends upon how much access to magical items you give your players and how hard the encounters you throw at them are. In the games I run (although not all the ones I play in) if the cleric/favored soul is not running around healing during combat characters WILL die. Sometimes they do anyway...

Starbuck_II
2007-10-10, 12:40 PM
My group generally doesn't play CoDzillas.

Clerics and Druids are played frequently, though.

You do realize CoDzilla is not a build. It is not a way you run them: it is just Cleric or Druid.
The are innately that good. Players might run them bad, but same as a player could run any class bad. The class abilities themselves are the reason CoDzilla occurs.
CoDzilla is Core: always been there.

Indon
2007-10-10, 12:43 PM
You do realize CoDzilla is not a build. It is not a way you run them: it is just Cleric or Druid.
The are innately that good. Players might run them bad, but same as a player could run any class bad. The class abilities themselves are the reason CoDzilla occurs.
CoDzilla is Core: always been there.

That's really not the case. My group can and does optimize; we still have no problem with Clerics and Druids being out-of-line of party strength.

brian c
2007-10-10, 12:47 PM
Eh... CoDzilla refers to a certain way of playing clerics and druids, so that they do melee better than a fighter but still cast kickass spells. Generally this only starts to be a problem at around 8-10th level and up. That's where I like to start my games, but so far I haven't had anyone trying to play a cleric or druid like that. In theory, I would not allow it though; either use the shapeshift variant, or use cloistered cleric

Miraqariftsky
2007-10-10, 12:47 PM
Cuuuuurious... My longest-lived character is an ECL 5 multiclass Cleric with one, soon to be 2 levels in Fighter...

I gather that going "CoDzilla" is a mighty move... how is it done?

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-10, 12:50 PM
I gather that going "CoDzilla" is a mighty move... how is it done?

Play a Cleric or Druid.

Seriously.

Dr. Weasel
2007-10-10, 12:55 PM
I try to get Cleric players to do this. The people who usually play Clerics in my group fall into the heal-bot routine, get bored and do something stupid to kill their characters. Repeatedly. Then they build Warmages and giggle at their totally-broken-9d6-Fireball-with-a-reflex-save.

So, yeah. My group doesn't optimize at all. My Swashbuckler/Bard/Swiftblade's been by far the most powerful character at everything (skills/fighting/casting/healing) with no real effort (Base Intelligence is 8 higher than Charisma and I took the Spring Attack feat line before even considering the Swiftblade class)

PlatinumJester
2007-10-10, 12:57 PM
It isn't banned so much as nerfed. Druids can't touch metal voluntarily and can't wear armour or use any weapon except for the club, sling or quarterstaff.

Clerics have a d4 HD, 1/2 BAB and no armour proficiencies.

Reinboom
2007-10-10, 01:03 PM
I use a rather large list of banned items in my games, inclusive of the Cleric and Druid (and archivist and wizard). With the blanket idea of : this is my world - they don't exist.
Even if I am fully trusting of my group and not present them the list of banned stuff, I will still outright ban the 4 above.

captain_decadence
2007-10-10, 01:14 PM
In all the games that I've played in, clerics have been very important for healing. The encounters we have are hard (people die, not just get hurt) and we have quite a few a day. We also don't have wands just lying around. I actually don't think I've ever played a game where someone has a wand. It just doesn't happen in our games for some reason. Therefore, the clerics and druids do a lot of healing.

Also, we all roleplay a lot and go in depth in our characters. I don't think that my cleric of the hearth mother (even though she has a smithy/war aspect) is going to be going all crazy with buffs and taking everything around her out.

Also, we have a lot of long long long long long dungeons/missions (we don't really do dungeons per say usually). So if you cast a buff to get through a fight, that's nice, but you have eight more before you get out and it's going to be many many hours and there is no way the DM is going to let you rest in the dungeon.

I mean, really, how does CoDzilla exist when you think about the fact that you have many encounters per day. Same with Batman wizard or whatever it is. Sure, it works well if you have one or two fights per day but they seem to fall apart really easily if your party is one of those constant danger scenarios. A fighter can keep hitting people with swords until the cows come home (and then he can hit the cows) but spellcasters will run out of spells pretty fast, specially if enemies are hard/have immunities.

tainsouvra
2007-10-10, 01:19 PM
Eh... CoDzilla refers to a certain way of playing clerics and druids, so that they do melee better than a fighter but still cast kickass spells. Technically the term just refers to any cleric or druid, regardless of build or tactic, but it is generally used in the manner you describe. The difference matters primarily because you would have to ban the cleric and druid classes to actually "forbid CoDzilla" by the original meaning of the term, thus the earlier comments.

tainsouvra
2007-10-10, 01:21 PM
I mean, really, how does CoDzilla exist when you think about the fact that you have many encounters per day. Same with Batman wizard or whatever it is. Sure, it works well if you have one or two fights per day but they seem to fall apart really easily if your party is one of those constant danger scenarios. A fighter can keep hitting people with swords until the cows come home (and then he can hit the cows) but spellcasters will run out of spells pretty fast, specially if enemies are hard/have immunities. No offense, but you need to look up the feats/abilities/spells in question, because it just plain doesn't work that way. Most, if not all, of the real show-stealer CoD abilities have durations (after metamagic) that let them be always on--which means that "constant danger scenarios" are a non-issue.

leperkhaun
2007-10-10, 01:22 PM
as with another posters my group doesnt play CoDzilla, we play clerics and druids.

Miraqariftsky
2007-10-10, 01:24 PM
Play a Cleric or Druid.

Seriously.

My blaggard's a cleric... just not yet the right level.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-10, 01:32 PM
Eh... CoDzilla refers to a certain way of playing clerics and druids, so that they do melee better than a fighter but still cast kickass spells.

Coming from a friend of the guy who coined the term: No, it doesn't. It refers to any cleric or druid. Not just a melee cleric or melee druid. The classes are seriously self-optimized. Throwing an effective build in there is just for overkill.

Rex Blunder
2007-10-10, 01:41 PM
I thought a codzilla had something to do with divine favor, natural spell, and buff spells that last all day, and possibly nightsticks and divine metamagic; not simply "playing a cleric or druid".

Edit: If angel knows the guy who made up the term, i guess we should bow to angel's definition. But SOMEONE should define the term so we know what we are talking about.

tainsouvra
2007-10-10, 01:53 PM
I thought a codzilla had something to do with divine favor, natural spell, and buff spells that last all day, and possibly nightsticks and divine metamagic; not simply "playing a cleric or druid". Those are common things when one optimizes CoDzilla, and the term is used primarily in optimization, so it makes sense that you would get that impression. As for the origin of the term, however, OneWinged4ngel is correct. It just means "Cleric or Druid"--it was abbreviated as CoD for a while, but in response to the inherent power of those two classes "CoDzilla" took over as a popular term.

Seffbasilisk
2007-10-10, 01:57 PM
I just have lots of traps and encounters draining the party's HP and suchnot, relegating cleric to heal-bitch and druid to backup heal-bitch.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-10, 01:58 PM
IIRC (it was a long time ago...) The term originated in a discussion about the silliness of the "core is balanced, noncore is broken" ideology. CoDzilla rose from the seas to stomp all over that idea. The post came complete with a screenshot from the new godzilla movie where it's godzilla's eye view of a stunned reporter, and the entertaining caption "CoDzilla eye view of the DM." An instant later, it was a full blown meme =P

C Harnryd
2007-10-10, 02:01 PM
Clerics and druids as written have never caused any problems in my campaigns. I require clerics to be religious, that is to belong to an organized religion and having to follow the rules and ethics of that religion. Druids either belong to a religion or have some strong connection to some group of nature entities with rules and ethics just like a religion.

I have nerfed full casters in general in at least one campaign, but that was for the general low-magic mood and thus applied to sorcerers and wizards too.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 02:02 PM
Beware the coming of the single winged celestial. He comes to inform you that writing Cleric or Druid automatically makes you a CoDzilla.

EDIT: HARCORE NINJAED!

Guess that's what I get for opening multiple tabs at once and getting to this one last.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 02:17 PM
I mean, really, how does CoDzilla exist when you think about the fact that you have many encounters per day. Same with Batman wizard or whatever it is. Sure, it works well if you have one or two fights per day but they seem to fall apart really easily if your party is one of those constant danger scenarios. A fighter can keep hitting people with swords until the cows come home (and then he can hit the cows) but spellcasters will run out of spells pretty fast, specially if enemies are hard/have immunities.

A) At what level? Past level 7 you don't run out of spells.

B) If you haven't figured out how to rest that's your fault.

Rope Trick. Level 2. Elven Wizard at level 5 can get back his spells. For a Level 3 Spell so can a Human one. You have been tricked. Everyone is when they start. They think that resting is something you do at night, or when you finish. In fact resting is done when you feel like it. Not that a Wizard cares after level 10. They'll run out of spell slots only after the Fighter dies.

Clerics don't even need to rest. They can just stand around at the ready, then get their spells back. Make a Tomb Tainted Soul/Undead Vitality/Spontaneous Inflicter with DMM persist and you don't ever have to stop the killing.

As for Healing. Clerics don't actually out of Combat heal, that's what wands are for. If you don't buy a Wand of Cure light that's a very stupid decision.

As for in combat healing. HAHAHAHA! Any turn you cast a healing spell that isn't mass cure X or Heal you are being a fool. You can do more damage then you can heal. So can whatever you are facing. You shouldn't waste your time like that, it actually hurts your party and leads to more lost HP then if you just killed everything.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-10-10, 02:21 PM
Most of the power-players I run for don't care to play clerics or druids, so I've never had to expressly forbid CoDzillas.

I do, however, forbid CoDzooky.

The_Snark
2007-10-10, 02:30 PM
A) At what level? Past level 7 you don't run out of spells.

B) If you haven't figured out how to rest that's your fault.

Rope Trick. Level 2. Elven Wizard at level 5 can get back his spells. For a Level 3 Spell so can a Human one. You have been tricked. Everyone is when they start. They think that resting is something you do at night, or when you finish. In fact resting is done when you feel like it. Not that a Wizard cares after level 10. They'll run out of spell slots only after the Fighter dies.

This works in a featureless dungeon crawl. In practice, there are plenty of things which sometimes prevent it, most often a quest tht you shouldn't just wait around on, or party members who think it's silly to stop at noon and wait for 18 hours for the cleric to pray again.

As for not needing to rest, yeah, that's kind of a problem at high levels. But when you first get Divine Power (the real cleric offender), you're only going to be able to cast it a couple times a day; barring DMM (persist), that's only a couple fights. At higher levels... point conceded. The cleric can buff and fight without really having to worry about running out of spells.


Clerics don't even need to rest. They can just stand around at the ready, then get their spells back. Make a Tomb Tainted Soul/Undead Vitality/Spontaneous Inflicter with DMM persist and you don't ever have to stop the killing.

As for Healing. Clerics don't actually out of Combat heal, that's what wands are for. If you don't buy a Wand of Cure light that's a very stupid decision.

As for in combat healing. HAHAHAHA! Any turn you cast a healing spell that isn't mass cure X or Heal you are being a fool. You can do more damage then you can heal. So can whatever you are facing. You shouldn't waste your time like that, it actually hurts your party and leads to more lost HP then if you just killed everything.

Well, firstly... how does that help you never rest? You still run out of spells eventually, especially if you have a tendancy to use up spell slots to Inflict Wounds on yourself.

Second, wands of Lesser Vigor are much better than wands of curing.

Third, that's very situational. At low levels, your cleric does probably something like 1d8+3 damage. He heals... hey, what do you know? About the same amount. If he can keep the fighter (who does, say, 2d6+6) up another round, it's worth it. At high levels, Cure spells are worthless in combat, yeah... but coincidentally, that's when you get Heal.

CoDzilla can be sort of a problem, but I generally mitigate it by encouraging druids to use variants like the ones in Unearthed Arcana, or the Shapeshift one from the PHBII. (Which rocks.) Clerics... go mostly unchanged, but my enemies tend to go heavy on the dispels when the clerics decide to buff to full power. And Divine Metamagic is banned.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-10, 02:40 PM
Same with Batman wizard or whatever it is.

There's a kernel of solid truth with regard to "Batman" wizards, but some of their supposed "invincibility" is also completely bullsh*t in actual practice. It hinges partly on living a lifestyle no human being (or elven or whatever being) could mentally endure (akin to solitary confinement -- "Okay, begin rolling Will to not start slowly losing your mind, and get ready to start crossing off spoken languages because you never, ever have human contact") and partly on knowing exactly what the threat will be in advance so that you can have everything all neatly laid out in advance.

My favorite is when people are arguing it, and you point out some chink in their armor, and they come back with, "Well then I'll just take 5 levels of [some arcane prestige class], and then ..."

O rly? You're going to take five levels of that class right then and there in order to get yourself out of it?

Then of course there's the GM factor. Just because the RAW say you can do all of these things doesn't mean any sane GM will let you.

So ... wizards are perhaps the most powerful class there is when played just so, but I still think they get a little overrated here. On the other hand, druids and clerics are powerful with high survivability even if you play them kind of poorly, and they get ridiculous when they're played well. Even without needing to have a perfect "just so" plan in place.

Chronos
2007-10-10, 02:43 PM
Rope Trick. Level 2. Elven Wizard at level 5 can get back his spells.Even an elf still needs to rest for a full eight hours to regain spells, even if only four of those are spent in trance. And divine casters can't just stop to rest whenever they run low of spells; they need to pray at the same time of day regardless.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-10-10, 02:48 PM
Depends on the game.

If I'm running, say, a Planescape-based 3.5 setting, gestalt, with a fun, free-and-easy feel where the characters are supposed to win with style and flair, and everybody's going to be powerful- and as it happens, I am- I'll allow Cleric and Druid. Since it's not a serious-minded game, optimization is likely to be in the service of "wouldn't it be fun if" not "I can crush all who oppose me if" and that's what matters to me.

On the other hand, my continual play-testing/homebrew campaign world does not allow Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Wu Jen, or Archivists. Ever.

It's a serious, fairly dark campaign, survival isn't guaranteed, and the world itself is a product of my very specific ideas on what magic should and should not be, and my equally finicky ideas on players outshining one another.

In such circumstances, allowing a player to create a Druid or Cleric would put them out of step, place them in a different power tier than their friends (potentially, at least) and invalidate my encounter design principles, which are not designed to deal with Cleric/Druid capabilities.

Also, and this is important, so listen closely:
I loathe full caster fan-boys with every fiber of my rogue-centric being.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 02:54 PM
Well, firstly... how does that help you never rest? You still run out of spells eventually, especially if you have a tendancy to use up spell slots to Inflict Wounds on yourself.

Because Clerics don't rest to get new spells. They pray. They can do that even if they were killing things for the last 24 hours. They can do that even if they have been killing things for the last 400 hours.

Also, you get a wand.


Second, wands of Lesser Vigor are much better than wands of curing.

Of course it is, but Wand of Cure Light is Core and specifically priced in the DMG. I like to avoid people telling me that things don't exist, so I don't give them the chance when I don't have to.


Third, that's very situational. At low levels, your cleric does probably something like 1d8+3 damage. He heals... hey, what do you know? About the same amount. If he can keep the fighter (who does, say, 2d6+6) up another round, it's worth it. At high levels, Cure spells are worthless in combat, yeah... but coincidentally, that's when you get Heal.

But your healing won't keep the Fighter up for another round, because he'll take more damage in a round then you can heal. And that 1d8+3 might not look like much. But if it fells the big X one round sooner then you just saved him (1d8+4)x2 damage.

The_Snark
2007-10-10, 03:01 PM
Because Clerics don't rest to get new spells. They pray. They can do that even if they were killing things for the last 24 hours. They can do that even if they have been killing things for the last 400 hours.

Also, you get a wand.



Of course it is, but Wand of Cure Light is Core and specifically priced in the DMG. I like to avoid people telling me that things don't exist, so I don't give them the chance when I don't have to.

I tend to avoid wands, and other nonpermanent expenditures of resources, like the plague. Wands of Vigor and, at lower levels, potions, are about the only exception. So I may be biased on this, but I wouldn't rely on a wand for healing exclusively. Spell slots regenerate every day, wands don't.


But your healing won't keep the Fighter up for another round, because he'll take more damage in a round then you can heal. And that 1d8+3 might not look like much. But if it fells the big X one round sooner then you just saved him (1d8+4)x2 damage.

Again, situational. And if you can, say, get the fighter back on his feet from -3, there's another good use for it. Or get the wizard conscious again, which could conceivably end the encounter if the challenge was based on surprise.

Rogue 7
2007-10-10, 04:36 PM
...So the fact that in my first campaign I chose to make a fullplate Cleric with a +1 greatsword because I liked the concept mean that I'm playing fullon Clericzilla? I had no idea about optimization and the like, I just like the concept of a lifetime soldier-cleric (an army chaplain) with skills in fighting.

tainsouvra
2007-10-10, 04:54 PM
...So the fact that in my first campaign I chose to make a fullplate Cleric with a +1 greatsword because I liked the concept mean that I'm playing fullon Clericzilla? I had no idea about optimization and the like, I just like the concept of a lifetime soldier-cleric (an army chaplain) with skills in fighting. That's actually a big part of how the name came about. "lifetime soldier-cleric with skills in fighting" is pretty much what you get right out of the box.

captain_decadence
2007-10-10, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Kaelik View Post
A) At what level? Past level 7 you don't run out of spells.

B) If you haven't figured out how to rest that's your fault.

Rope Trick. Level 2. Elven Wizard at level 5 can get back his spells. For a Level 3 Spell so can a Human one. You have been tricked. Everyone is when they start. They think that resting is something you do at night, or when you finish. In fact resting is done when you feel like it. Not that a Wizard cares after level 10. They'll run out of spell slots only after the Fighter dies.

Maybe games are completely different how my group plays them, but that's just dumb. I mean, we are playing people (loosely) not machines (excluding war-forged). They don't think about optimizing their character class or looking through the DMG to find nifty little tricks. How would my cleric know about this rope trick, she doesn't have the DMG or a player's guide? Unless someone has knowledge Arcana, they wouldn't even know what Rope Trick is.

If someone tried this in a game that I play in, they would be left behind. Our missions are almost completely time sensitive and if we disappeared up a freaking rope for eight hours, we'd fail at what we are doing.

Sorry if I sound rantish, I just don't understand this way of playing D&D.

Fhaolan
2007-10-10, 05:15 PM
I tend to not ban CoDzilla. I do, however, ban MechaCoDzilla and King CoDorah...

Seriously, though, in most of the games I've been in the normal CoDzilla hasn't been an issue, due to playing style. We did have one high-level game where the Druid massively outshone the rest of the party, but that was due to the DM not paying attention and not knowing 3.x rules very well at all. The player had been 'advised' by her husband on how to run this Druid/Wizard character, and had been told all sorts of stories about how Druids were spontaneous casters and that druid and wizard levels stack for casting and familar & animal companions... I joined the group late in the campaign, and noticed the weirdness, told the DM about this (and about other things this husband was telling the other players were 'legal rules'), she did a 'rocks fall, everyone dies' and did a campaign reset while she, my former roomate, and I sat down and went over the 'real' rules as opposed to what this guy had been telling everyone.

RandomNPC
2007-10-10, 05:44 PM
i've got a Dzilla, in my group, its easy, SNA the biggest elemental you can, turn into a bear, kill things. if someone really needs it, do some heally.

or he could nerf himslef and summon something like a puppy, turn into a bird, and fly around only healing people.

what would you rather do? CoDzilla isn't as bad in my game as it could be, but i make the challenges expecting them to have a big elemental and a grizzly bear that can heal things.

Orzel
2007-10-10, 05:54 PM
No. Player tend to only get the items they need and random junk. If you start taking over the game, expect to get little better the +1 maces and CLW scrolls for a while.

Saph
2007-10-10, 05:59 PM
We have two Clerics in our Level 11 FR game. One's a hardcore optimiser, the other is a newbie. Neither cause any balance problems. Sure, they can buff themselves up to be as good as a fighter with Divine Power and Righteous Might . . . if they get two rounds notice. Given that our fights normally start with an enemy charging in and/or hitting the party with some kind of vicious attack before any of the spellcasters have had a single action, getting two rounds notice is not a luxury we have very often. The fighter deals more damage than both clerics put together.

This isn't to say the clerics are useless by any means - they're both perfectly good characters. But anyone walking into one of our games and expecting to dominate just because they're playing a single-classed Cleric would be in for a nasty surprise.

On the other hand, in the Level 8 World's Largest Dungeon campaign, I play a druid who really is deadly. In that case, though, it's necessary due to the lethality of the encounters we face, and most of my power comes from combining melee fighting with augmented summoned creatures dropped in the right place. 'Zoo Druid' would be more accurate than 'Zilla Druid'. :)

So no, CoDZillas aren't banned in our games, and won't be until we see some hard evidence.

- Saph

Jerthanis
2007-10-10, 05:59 PM
The games I tend to play in generally run from 1st or 2nd to 8th or 9th... which is enough time for CoDzilla to be going full force for a whole 2 levels maybe. Cleric is a popular favorite among our group, and the way our group plays them is that the Cleric drops Prayer and Bless before charging in himself, so everyone else gets a couple rounds whacking away with buffs before the Cleric even takes his first swing. It's hard to feel overshadowed when you're using teamwork. Also, we're all kind of in love with the flexibility allowed Clerics in their builds. If your concept is some sort of tribesman, off to make his fortune in the big city, he could be a cleric with a shamanistic religion, with Plant and Animal domains, or a brutish self-sufficient type and get the Strength and Travel domains. You could play a worshipper of a god of thieves, and get the trickery domain and actually do fairly okay at lying and sneaking, You can be an Archer with some proficiency, and if you're a bookish scholar type, you can get the Knowledge and Magic domains. The fact that you can represent any of these with the cleric class makes it singularly versatile among all other classes. It's the kind of player-choice in terms of that character's personality and personal flavor influencing the mechanics that I wish other classes would have more of. If more classes were constructed more like the Cleric, there'd never be a need to multiclass to represent a specific skill set. (okay, I'm done gushing about how much I like clerics)

As far as Druids go... my group considers any brokenness of their animal forms to be a reward for playing them from level 1 or 2, where all they've got is Shillelagh and Entangle. The fact that most players prefer to be able to speak keeps them from abusing the fact that you can be an animal all day, the fact that we play from level 1 or 2 prevents the other common exploit of dumping physical stats for the stats of the animal form, and the fact that you have to hunt down the best animal forms and do cross-analytical studies to see which animal forms are at all good (BTW, most bear forms kind of suck), it's just a huge hassle... Being pretty powerful if you put in the work seems like a fair trade to us, and we've never seen a Druid overshadow the rest of the party in terms of any single aspect, be it blasting, buffing, healing, battlefield control, debuffs, tanking, raw damage or save-ors... the fact that they can do all at once with some proficiency is nice, but it's hard to say that's broken when any specialized character trumps them. In the 1/2 ~ 8/9 game, Druids are only really good at the last couple levels, and in my experience, even worse than Wizards at 1st and 2nd.

I think the idea of a cleric or druid as a necessary party healer is kind of funny, as we've had everything from Rangers to Bards to Paladins to Rogues provide for the primary healer role in our games, and we've never felt the lack. We've even had an idea for a Warlock primary healer (Tomb tainted feat I believe lets negative energy heal you, and positive energy hurt you... I believe there's a Warlock invocation to make Eldrich blasts deal NE... if the whole party takes that feat, it's infinite healing at range for free!). There are plenty of healing options that don't involve clerics or druids.

Reinboom
2007-10-10, 06:01 PM
Maybe games are completely different how my group plays them, but that's just dumb. I mean, we are playing people (loosely) not machines (excluding war-forged). They don't think about optimizing their character class or looking through the DMG to find nifty little tricks. How would my cleric know about this rope trick, she doesn't have the DMG or a player's guide? Unless someone has knowledge Arcana, they wouldn't even know what Rope Trick is.

If someone tried this in a game that I play in, they would be left behind. Our missions are almost completely time sensitive and if we disappeared up a freaking rope for eight hours, we'd fail at what we are doing.

Sorry if I sound rantish, I just don't understand this way of playing D&D.

Knowledge base depends on how the game is run. Be reflective a bit - for example - I can make a bomb (IRL), a rather simple explosive device (without going into detail) with simple materials. I didn't learn this from the internet, it was something that I was informed over the process of by a friend. Neither of us being any sort of chemists. How did this information in general come about? someone did it somewhere, and it worked, and then passed on the information. Reapplied: "I heard of a group saving their sorry butts time after time by their wizard having them climb up some sort of rope into some sort of extra space - hey wizard bud, can you do that?"
Of course - that is also just based on how the game is ran.

For the disappearing for 8 hours part: Uhm, do you not disappear for 8 hours to sleep in an inn? Or do your characters not sleep? The rope trick is used mainly in order to not be attacked in the middle of the night - an alternative to the inns or sleeping outside in tents that would normally be used.

Starbuck_II
2007-10-10, 06:14 PM
CoDzilla can be sort of a problem, but I generally mitigate it by encouraging druids to use variants like the ones in Unearthed Arcana, or the Shapeshift one from the PHBII. (Which rocks.) Clerics... go mostly unchanged, but my enemies tend to go heavy on the dispels when the clerics decide to buff to full power. And Divine Metamagic is banned.

So being smart the Cleric raises his caster level above ther limit of dispel magic? Really, there are so many Core ways to boost Divine Caster: Beads of karma, etc, etc.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-10, 06:34 PM
We have two Clerics in our Level 11 FR game. One's a hardcore optimiser, the other is a newbie. Neither cause any balance problems. Sure, they can buff themselves up to be as good as a fighter with Divine Power and Righteous Might . . . if they get two rounds notice. Given that our fights normally start with an enemy charging in and/or hitting the party with some kind of vicious attack before any of the spellcasters have had a single action, getting two rounds notice is not a luxury we have very often. The fighter deals more damage than both clerics put together.
They "should" be using Quickened Divine Favor instead of regular Righteous Might. Since they have level 6 spells, they can also buy time with Antilife Shell (get the party inside one to keep them safe).

Saph
2007-10-10, 06:44 PM
They "should" be using Quickened Divine Favor instead of regular Righteous Might. Since they have level 6 spells, they can also buy time with Antilife Shell (get the party inside one to keep them safe).

Neither has Quicken Spell as far as I know, though they could take it next level. I'm not 100% sure it would be worth it, in any case. Giving up a 5th-level spell slot is a big tradeoff.

We generally don't know what we're going to be fighting on any given day, or what kind of tactical position we're going to be fighting it in, so things like Antilife Shell are risky. Heal's probably a better choice.

- Saph

Ashes
2007-10-10, 07:00 PM
Anyone who bans casting classes shouldn't be playing D&D. They should be playing Iron Heroes instead, which is actually meant for that kind of thing.

I never ban classes for anything but flavour issues. I trust my players. You should try it.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-10-10, 07:16 PM
Anyone who bans casting classes shouldn't be playing D&D. They should be playing Iron Heroes instead, which is actually meant for that kind of thing.

I never ban classes for anything but flavour issues. I trust my players. You should try it.

I cordially dispute both of your points.
Firstly, 'casting classes' is a broader category than simply Clerics and Druids. Shadowcasters, Warlocks, Favored Souls, Battle Sorcerors, Bards, Rangers, Paladins, Binders, Truenamers, and, arguably, all of Psionics, could be considered 'casting'.
Simply because someone elects to eschew the usage of 'first-tier' caster classes does not mean they wish to play in a low-magic or no-magic campaign.
The desire to have no single class overshadow any other, while still maintaining the flavor of a 'magical' fantasy universe, rather than an 'action fantasy' world, may lead to the 'banning' of Wizards, Clerics, and Druids, but the retention of other casters.

Flavor 'issues', further, are in honesty anything but valid. While the mechanics of a class may require extensive tweaking, the non-mechanical material associated with that class can be changed as much or as little as the DM likes to fit the campaign...without changing mechanics at all. Nothing could be easier than changing flavor to make a class fit; trusting your players would mean you trust them to make their character integrated into your campaign without undue stretching.

Lastly; disallowing a particular option or set of options isn't me saying "I don't trust you; if I let you do anything you want, you'll break my game, without regard for me or the other players." Far from it.
It's more of a signal to my players, an indication of flavor, focus, and milieu- "The world in which you're playing operates on these rules; this campaign focuses on these themes, and has these influences. To help you create a character that works well, I'm trying to focus your creation process."

If I refuse to allow someone to bring in 2nd edition material, does that mean I don't trust them? If I don't let someone give themselves 8 in all but one stat, does that mean I don't trust them?
No. It means that I, as a DM, have created a world that operates on certain rules, and I, as the DM, know what's going to be needed to survive that world. I am trying to help my players by telling them "This is what's going to work, this is what's going to fit." I trust them to make appropriate use of the building blocks I give them.

Grod_The_Giant
2007-10-10, 07:43 PM
my players and I have an agreement. They don't abuse the rules and create broken characters, and I don't hit ban classes. So far it's worked out pretty well.

Really, this CoDzilla thing is something that shouldn't come up with reasonable players.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 08:35 PM
Maybe games are completely different how my group plays them, but that's just dumb. I mean, we are playing people (loosely) not machines (excluding war-forged). They don't think about optimizing their character class or looking through the DMG to find nifty little tricks. How would my cleric know about this rope trick, she doesn't have the DMG or a player's guide? Unless someone has knowledge Arcana, they wouldn't even know what Rope Trick is.

If someone tried this in a game that I play in, they would be left behind. Our missions are almost completely time sensitive and if we disappeared up a freaking rope for eight hours, we'd fail at what we are doing.

A) Do you exercise? Do others? Do you go to school? Do others? That's called optimizing in real life. People do what they can to make themselves better. When a soldier goes off to war, they make sure that they are good at what they do. Why? So they don't get killed. People do what is best for them. For D&D characters that is make themselves powerful.
B) Rope Trick is an arcane spell of second level in core. That means most any Wizard should know of it. Here's a simple test. Roll a spellcraft check, if you get a 17 or higher then you know rope trick so well that if anyone cast it within your site you would know they were casting that spell. Consequently, it makes sense that you would know of the rope trick at a much much lower DC. General convention is that Wizards know all the spells of the levels they can cast in the PHB as a minimum. If this were not the case then they would never actually get to cast spells because they would just have to pretend their character has never heard of any.
C) Are your missions really time sensitive? Think about this carefully, you probably go off to do something, take several hours getting there, take several hours clearing the place out, and then several more hours leaving. If you needed to rescue someone then they are being held prisoner because they could have been killed/eaten several times over. If you are bringing back an important item eight hours isn't going to make a difference, especially when the other option is death. Ultimately, before you learn teleport you should never be undertaking anything time sensitive.

captain_decadence
2007-10-10, 11:16 PM
e? Think about this carefully, you probably go off to do something, take several hours getting there, take several hours clearing the place out, and then several more hours leaving. If you needed to rescue someone then they are being held prisoner because they could have been killed/eaten several times over. If you are bringing back an important item eight hours isn't going to make a difference, especially when the other option is death. Ultimately, before you learn teleport you should never be undertaking anything time sensitive.

Well, this is an example of one of our latest missions. Six members of a cult are captured after the general of our branch of the army's daughter goes missing. After we investigate the members of the cult and talk to some of them, we realize that not all of them are actually cult members, though some are and we are not sure who is and who isn't. So we go after the cult, knowing that all of the suspects will be hung by the next morning. We managed to break into the cults local headquarters and after really vicious fighting involving yuan-ti, abominations, cult members with lots and lots of magic and tons of traps, we end up rescuing the girl. Using information we obtain in the raid, we head back to the garrison and free the people who were imprisoned but were not actual cult members. In their place, we put the general's daughter who it turns out was a member of the cult and she hung with her friends.

So, if we had done this rope trick, we could have had a much easier fight against the cult because we could have rested halfway through getting to the girl. Unfortunately, that would have meant letting innocent people hang so we could have a leisurely fight. So yes, even though we didn't have teleport, our missions can still be quite time sensitive.

Ralfarius
2007-10-10, 11:24 PM
Oh... Beware posting an in-game example for explanation of reasoning. Someone is bound to tell you how they could have done it better, and with half the calories.

Zeal
2007-10-10, 11:33 PM
I don't ban classes in my games. I'll ban spells, or feats, but not classes, if something is really unbalanced, I'll alter it, the shapeshifting variant for the druid is a good example of something to use, I personally don't, but If I ever get a Druidzilla it'll be out there in a second. For the most part the Favoured Souls and Druids in my games are fairly tame (of some reason no one except me plays a cleric and even then I end up being a heal-bot...which doesn't really work very well because I'm an utter jerk with my healings [You know it's a bad sign when you're at two health and you're saying to the Warblade "And what can you do for me?"] but I digress).

Out of the year or so my gaming group has been playing together, there has only been one CoDzilla, our usual DM (that is to say, me). See, I went Druidzilla in an effort to teach our resident Munchkin a lesson, that lesson being: Sure, you can optimize to hell and pretty much completely cheat, so what? I can do it better and completely legitimately. Other than that, I haven't had cause to forbid CoDzilla.

Leon
2007-10-11, 12:52 AM
Beware the coming of the single winged celestial. He comes to inform you that writing Cleric or Druid automatically makes you a CoDzilla.


Only in his overzealous eyes

the Zilla is a factor if you make it so, playing a divine caster does not pigeon hole you into a play type


For me, ive been met with opposition to playing a druid since some from the last campagin had played a Zilla and broken the game - my point that all it took was some sensible moderation of the class and featage could curb it.
As it was the DM had some very weird idea's on how the magic system should work that lead to Arcane magic being even more overpowered than it is already - suffice to say that game crashed and burned quick


Current Campagin: i said to the DM i'll be playing a Druid and given my dislike of some of its class features i'll be swapping them out for others (No Wild Shape, Spont Summons or Animal Companion)
Only thing i miss is the AC, a mount can be handy sometimes.....

Our Cleric is playing a Healbot and enjoying it - i introduced DMM to the rest of the players as a concept, the DM has allowed it but also regulated it.
given the way its going atm the oringinal use of turning attempts is better than a boosted spell


For My games:
The control of 2 feats pretty much curbs the Zilla factor


I don't ban classes in my games. I'll ban spells, or feats, but not classes

I wont ban a class but i'll try and get the player to change idea's if they come up with one i dont like (im looking at you Oriental classes)

SleepingOrange
2007-10-11, 01:43 AM
Clerics and Druids: "...meditate and pray for their spells, receiveing them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. ..." [PHB version 3.5, page 32]

It must be the same time every day, it must be spent in quiet contemplation, and it must be for one hour.

So, my dear little cleric of Wee Jas, Mort Flaco (yes, I know it's lame. Shut up), must spend one hour at dusk (~6:00) every day to get spells. Is he fighting at dusk? Sucks to be him. Is he interrupted? Still sucks. Does he sleep through dusk? Wow, he just can't win.

The strictness of time constraints really counter-balances a lot of the complaints people are bringing up. Clearly these people don't know their source-books as well as they should if they plan on making inflammatory comments. In a constant dungeon-crawler, without a clock, Mort might well miss his genuflections. Can't see the sky? Sucks for you.

As to wizard batmen, use the above, but substitute 'specific time of day' with 'eight friggin' hours of complete rest 1 hour of which must be spent studying plus they have to have their books and pouches; take one of those away (which really isn't hard to do while still being plausible for a good DM) and you have a character class that rivals the bard for utter worthlessness'. The long time makes time-specific missions dangerous, the necessity for outside ingredients makes a captured or disarmed wizard worthless, and the frailty makes them hard to raise.

PS, I don't like bards, you will never convince me to like bards, i will never play a bard. I don't like bards. Don't waste your time and our thread-space going on an off-topic tangent trying to convince me bards are not 'no better than bait with a lute'. Seriously.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 02:18 AM
So, my dear little cleric of Wee Jas, Mort Flaco (yes, I know it's lame. Shut up), must spend one hour at dusk (~6:00) every day to get spells. Is he fighting at dusk? Sucks to be him. Is he interrupted? Still sucks. Does he sleep through dusk? Wow, he just can't win.

I am well aware of the way Clerics regain there spells. That's the point of the build I mentioned. He is awake 24 hours a day, and has buff spells up 24 hours a day. As such he is fighting machine 23 hours a day. You also missed the part where if something distracts or prevents praying at that time, he must do so as soon as he is no longer prevented. IE: If he is fighting it's okay, IF he is sleeping he would be okay. If he forgets that is his fault.

Also note that time cannot be perfectly measured, as such, it's a very fuzzy time period that is open to praying.

SleepingOrange
2007-10-11, 03:27 AM
Okay, after about a half-hour of the server not letting me on, here:


Because Clerics don't rest to get new spells. They pray. They can do that even if they were killing things for the last 24 hours. They can do that even if they have been killing things for the last 400 hours.

Build? What Build? No puedo ver no stinking build.

As to the ZOMGZOMGZOMG, forevar buffed!!1! point, let's see if that's plausible. Let's say, at twelfth level; above average, but not too much so.

0-level buffs
guidance
resistance
virtue

1st level
bless
divine favor
endure elements
entropic shield
magic stone
magic weapon
protection from [alignment]
sanctuary
shield of faith

2nd level
aid
[stat-pumpers]

3rd level
magic vestment
prayer
protection from energy

4th level
death ward
divine power
greater magic weapon
spell immunity

5th level
disrupting weapon
righteous might
spell resistance

6th level
mass [stat-pumpers]

All the zero-level boosts are worthless. End of story. +1, non stackable bonuses do not a characterzilla make.

Bless: like zero-level, but multiple target. Still not broken
Divine favor: Maxes out at +3, lasts for 1 minute, static.
Endure elements. Do I really need to say anything?
Entropic Shield: 12 minutes (even 10 castings is only 2 hours) of 20% ranged miss-chance does not a 24-hour killing-spree make.
Magic Stone: makes bullets +1. You should have better by now.
Magic Weapon: 12 minutes of +1 weapon. Still worthless.
Protection from [Alignment]: 12 minutes of a slight bonus against 1/3 possible alignments? Not broken.
Sanctuary: 12 ROUNDS of not attacking? No, not broken.
Shield of Faith: +4 AC for 12 minutes. Agan, no.
Aid: +1 to attack rolls and 11-18 temporary hit points for 12 mnutes.
[Stat Pumpers]: 12 minutes of a +4 bonus to one stat?
Magic Vestment: Kind of nice; 12 hours of a +3 bonus. Helpful, but not game-breaking. A difference of 2 or 3 AC does not an uber-force make.
Prayer: 12 rounds of +1s to you and -1s to you enemies. Nice, but baanced, and short.
Protection from Energy: Not helpful if you're being stabbed. Additionally, lasts for 2 hours or 120 points of damage. Also, only works againsst one type of energy; a salamander + ice devil = not protected.
Death Ward: 12 minutes of protection from death effects. Nice against a bodak or two, but useless against a big thing crushing you to death.
Divine Power: Good for one encounter, but multiple encounters/day and you're soon out of Divine Powers.
Greater Magic Weapon: 12 hours of a +4 bonus is pretty nice, but it isn't going to mean the difference between a balanced character and uber-priest.
Spell immunity: immunity to three spells under fifth level. Cool, until you get hit by chain lightning and cone of cold.
disrupting Weapon: Good against undead, worthless gainst every-thing else. Plus, lasts for 12 rounds, not even minutes.
Righteous Might: Pretty owerful, but again, lasts in terms of rounds.
Spell resistance: Could be broken, but only lasts twelve minutes.
Mass [Stat-Pumpers: see [stat pumpers].

Explain to me how that's 'twenty-four hours of fighting'-worthy.

lord_khaine
2007-10-11, 03:54 AM
its called using persistant spell with divine metamagic on righteous might and divine power, as well as a regular persistance on divine favor.

thats 3 of the most hardcore cleric buffs lasting all day.

SleepingOrange
2007-10-11, 04:05 AM
{Scrubbed}

ZeroNumerous
2007-10-11, 04:40 AM
SleepingOrange: You're being abit abrasive.

Further: On the point of anti-magic fields, yes, they'd stop a clericzilla from being broken. But then again, at anything higher than level 4, they also stop the party Fighter from being useful. Particularly when his main weapon is now nothing more than a masterwork spiked chain.

Wizard's have Rope Trick. At 1 hour/caster level, you only need to be level 9(or lower with some caster level boosts) to have a full day's rest whenever you want it. Later on, Mage's Magnificent Mansion lets you rest in comfort.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-11, 04:50 AM
Rope trick is all fine and dandy, except when you are on a timetable. Whenever you are facing intelligent foes, you are on a timetable.

And while SleepingOrange was being overly abrasive, he did raise an important point. A dispel magic thrown at the party cleric has a good chance of knocking out his PDMM spells, which either knocks him out a high level spell or a bunch of turning attempts. And dispel magic is not an uncommon or unrealistic thing to expect to face. AMFs, on the other hand, are very specific, and somewhat uncommon, as it is a high level spell. Spellcasters are not generally encouraged to deny themselves the ability to cast spells.


As to the OP, yes, but not as such. I will run a campaign that runs two or three years, and I put a great deal of thought and effort into making the campaign world before hand. This includes deciding what classes are appropriate for the setting, and which are not. This also includes deciding what the planar cosmology is like, and deciding what and how magic actually works in the setting. This generally entails all of the spellcasting classes being custom-made, or at least modified versions of base classes.

Kantolin
2007-10-11, 05:06 AM
Well, insofar as I can tell, the -zilla portion refers to the fact that Clerics and Druids are pretty much built to fight as well or similarly as well as the fighter, while also being full spellcasters.

I played a hyperdefensive buff-wizard, figuring it would be difficult to do so, and was pleasantly surprised at how well wizards buff their allies. I then attempted to play a hyperdefensive buff-cleric, figuring that would be easier.

I swear, staring at 4th level cleric spells and trying to figure out how to buff the party is awful. There's death ward, which usually is useless, and Freedom of Movement, which is occasionally useful at best. Restoration costs multiple rounds to cast, and is thus not really combat-viable. What, spell immunity? I mean, I actually get hazy use out of spell immunity.

Honestly, part of the allure (of cleric-zilla, at least) is that there really aren't a whole ton of options for you to go defensive with at 4th (In core, anyway. Splatbooks help). It's very easy to play a sub-par wizard or sorceror; you have to kind of work to reasonably make a sub-par cleric or druid. Clerics seem to have the reasonable schtick of 'you are a secondary fighter who can also cast spells', which to your average person is their point of a cleric - Divine Power is then just kind of sitting there being awesome.

And natural spell is sort of a 'duh' for druids - pretty much the only feat that really helps?

I suppose this is somewhat off-topic, though. I don't think CoDzillas really cause problems in most games - they don't in mine - in large part due to a lack of gloating. If person A does 1d8 + 3, and person B does 2d6 + 5, the variable damage isn't enough such that person B is absolutely dominating everything over person A. Most people don't optimize - neither their clerics, druids, or fighters - and thus the end result is 'The cleric is a slightly better fighter than the fighter', which is not enough to cause any particular complaints since it's close enough for variables to take over.

Unless the two sit there and mathmatically analyze average damage, or one optimizes significantly over the other.

Silkenfist
2007-10-11, 05:08 AM
I'm tinkering with the idea of nerfing Clerics and Druids somewhat by imposing a Code of Conduct on them that has the severity of the Paladin's rules. The Cleric has to live up to the ideal of his deity and not stray away from its alignment, lest they lose their divine abilities. Druids...they don't have to spend every waking hour in the forest, but they may never undertake an action that leads to nature's destruction or stay their hand when anyone else threatens a natural environment. If they don't...goodbye Spells and Wild Shape, the Animal Companion can stay, though.

Kantolin
2007-10-11, 05:15 AM
Oh, one last point I wanted to mention:


A dispel magic thrown at the party cleric has a good chance of knocking out his PDMM spells, which either knocks him out a high level spell or a bunch of turning attempts. And dispel magic is not an uncommon or unrealistic thing to expect to face.

Well... yes.

The trouble with this is twofold. First of all, the spells on the cleric are going/likely to be at the cleric's caster level - this thus makes the fighter's magic items much more simple to dispel, as they tend to be a minimum caster level. A mid/high level fighter with a mundane weapon is not much of a threat.

Secondly - especially when facing off against Dispel magic Greater - there are other things that can be done when facing off against a high level party. If the bad guy spends one of his precious actions dispelling the cleric successfully - that's one round where either all four PCs can then pummel him, or where three of the PCs can pummel him while the cleric casts their second righteous might or whatever, and this costs the boss a 3rd or 6th level spell slot to accomplish (And still leaves the cleric with full access to spellcasting).

Spending that first action doing something else may actually be more survivable. So I suppose this problem is that dispels take spell slots, which could be spent doing something that isn't dispel.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-11, 05:33 AM
BBEG minions can be ordered to cast a dispel magic on the party cleric, possibly from a scroll, made by said BBEG, so that the caster level is on par.

Dispelling magic items is kinda silly, given that it lasts 1d4 rounds.

A canny spellcaster might consider dispel magic rnd 1, GTFO rnd 2, come back on his one terms rnd 3 or 4. At higher level, you might even Gdispel, + quickened GTFO. Then come back round 2 or 3 on his own terms.


Generally speaking though, you are correct. Dispel Magic is much more effective in the hands of PCs, who generally have more collective actions that the villain, given there are 4-6 of them, and generally 1 or 2 villains.

Kantolin
2007-10-11, 05:59 AM
BBEG minions can be ordered to cast a dispel magic on the party cleric, possibly from a scroll, made by said BBEG, so that the caster level is on par.

Well... this is true.

But this suggests that the dispel magic is primarily (Or perhaps, even, exclusively) useful against the party's cleric - it certainly won't have the same impact that, say, a resilient sphere or sommat would (and that would also effect the Fighter and Wizard, as well as the Cleric, assuming a typical 4-man party). Alternately, he could go for a similarly high leveled fortitude saving throw spell of some sort - target the wizard and the rogue, or will and target the fighter and the rogue. Or smack the party with a fireball.

Granted, now, this could (potentially) make for a more interesting boss encounter than if the boss did something more effective. Still, while smacking the cleric's currently-up spells is a good move, there's a lot of other things that are (likely) more effective... unless the cleric really is that optimized (And the rest of the group is not), in which there are other problems.

Saph
2007-10-11, 06:04 AM
Who cares about Rope Trick? So it lets you rest. You can get the same effect several other ways.

Honestly, an awful lot of the going on about CoDZillas sounds like it's coming from people who haven't tried applying it in any kind of difficult situation (kind of like the way people think that Time Stop/Forcecage/Cloudkill is a win button, when in truth it's one of the most ineffective combos you have available at that level). Two simple points:

1) Most D&D games, probably 80-90% or so, are played at levels 1-10. Clerics are very good at these levels, but they're far from being unstoppable monsters.

2) Most of the 'proofs' of how zomgawesome clerics are with their buffs assume that they'll always be fully buffed, with exactly the spells they want, whenever they want them. Assuming you're facing remotely challenging encounters, it doesn't work that way.

Yes, you can use DMM & Persistent Spell & Nightsticks, but this is way into cheese territory. If you're going that far you might as well just say the rest of the party can start using Candles of Invocation.

- Saph

leperkhaun
2007-10-11, 07:02 AM
As to the spell list.

The 24 hour thing is from using Divine Metamagic from the complete divine. The feat allows a cleric to use Turn/rebuke attempts to fuel metamagic at 1 attempt +1 turn per spell level increase of the metamagic.

From there they take Extend spell as a prereq and then take persistant spell. Persistant spell makes any spell with a range of personal last 24 hours with a 6 (i think) spell slot adjustment.

Then there are the "night sticks" night sticks are a magic item that gives you turn/rebuke attempts.

So look at it this way.

24 hour Divine Power (+6 str BAB of a fighter)
24 rightous might (size bonus to str and con, enlarge so weapons do more damage, and damage reduction)

With the right feat selection a cleric can melee darn near as well as fighter, WHILE maintaining full spell casting.

Most of the cleric thing tends to focus that a cleric is able to do the cleric thing while nearly out performing a "standard" fighter.

Add in the domain that adds Shapechange and persist that.......

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 07:25 AM
Not, it(apostrophe)'(apostrophe)s called being stupid. People have been maintaining that clerics are inherantly broken, not that ridiculous munchkinizing of clerics if broken. Besides, that cleric gets stuck in an anti-magic field or hit by a dispel, he's lost all his broken-ness, hasn't he.

I do not recall stating that all Clerics are broken. In fact all I claimed was that by taking certain feats and abusing Night sticks and DMM Persist a Cleric could be a killing machine for 23 hours a day, every day. (As per my "build" which while not an exact build, was clear enough on the details to mention the things that needed to be done.) Nothing about any other type of Cleric.

Mike_G
2007-10-11, 07:53 AM
As tpo the original topic, I banned Clerics in my campaign, largely because I hated having one standard cleric for dozens of different gods, with hugely different philosophies and spheres of influence.

The fullplate, 2 skillpoint, no access to Cat's Grace Cleric of Olidamara is stupid.

So, there is no one base Cleric class in my world. If you want to serve a god, you prestige into a custom class for that god. Healing got rolled into the Sorcerer/Wizard list, and all is well.

Silkenfist
2007-10-11, 08:03 AM
As tpo the original topic, I banned Clerics in my campaign, largely because I hated having one standard cleric for dozens of different gods, with hugely different philosophies and spheres of influence.

The fullplate, 2 skillpoint, no access to Cat's Grace Cleric of Olidamara is stupid.

So, there is no one base Cleric class in my world. If you want to serve a god, you prestige into a custom class for that god. Healing got rolled into the Sorcerer/Wizard list, and all is well.

Uhhmm...what? Are you sure that is a good idea? I mean...Wizards can produce each and every possible effect you can think of - with one single exception, which is Healing (If you say something about Wish, I'll hire a Wizard to hunt you down). They are still the strongest base class and balanced only by the fact that they are rather fragile in their low levels. Now that you've given them Healing, the incentive to play anything but a Wizard is becoming slim.

Indon
2007-10-11, 08:46 AM
Uhhmm...what? Are you sure that is a good idea? I mean...Wizards can produce each and every possible effect you can think of - with one single exception, which is Healing (If you say something about Wish, I'll hire a Wizard to hunt you down). They are still the strongest base class and balanced only by the fact that they are rather fragile in their low levels. Now that you've given them Healing, the incentive to play anything but a Wizard is becoming slim.

A game in which player class selection is not based around optimum player power/utility would not have this problem.

Mike_G
2007-10-11, 09:04 AM
Uhhmm...what? Are you sure that is a good idea? I mean...Wizards can produce each and every possible effect you can think of - with one single exception, which is Healing (If you say something about Wish, I'll hire a Wizard to hunt you down). They are still the strongest base class and balanced only by the fact that they are rather fragile in their low levels. Now that you've given them Healing, the incentive to play anything but a Wizard is becoming slim.

I disagree.

Removing Clerics as a base class doesn't mean you remove the need for Healing, Restoration, etc. The PC's should have access to these spells, so why no let the classes who research spells as a career learn them?

I consider the Arcane/Divine spell division to be silly, anyway. Why can't the God of Fire grant his followers Fireball of Scorching Ray ? Why can't a Wizard, who studies magic that can Teleport or Shapechange Cure a few lousy d8's of damge?

As far as overpowering Wizards by letting them heal, that's not an issue in actual play. In fact, it helps make them less dominant. Every Cure spell they prepare is one less slot for a Save or Die spell. Every Wand of CLW they create or Scroll of Restore they scribe is one less item of a more offensive nature they could be making.

Placing the Healer role on them taxes their resources, and actually acts as a Wizard nerf, if anything.

Silkenfist
2007-10-11, 09:26 AM
Indon: Generally, I like roleplay-heavy games better, too. But I don't think increasing the between-classes variance of raw power helps this purpose at all.

Mike: Giving a class more options makes it weaker? Maybe it will make the individuals weaker, but the class as a whole becomes stronger. If the role of the Healer can be fulfilled by the Wizard, the average party of 4 is likely to contain at least 2 Wizards. Worse, a party without Wizard has become entirely unthinkable.


edit:

Why a caster shouldn't be able to learn Healing Spells? Think of Vaarsuvius. Try asking V to spend one of his precious world-altering spell-slots to deal with the little flesh wound of yours. Vaarsuvius would feel insulted.
Wizards devote their entire life to unlock the secrets of the universe, shaping matter and minds at will and breaking the laws of science wherever they can. However, if you want to heal someone, you need a different expertise. You need to know how a human being works, how its health can be maintained and how its wounds and ailments can be treated. I don't think, Wizards would spend time learning about this boring stuff when they could learn how to blow up the world instead.
Yes, Wizards cast spells, too. But I don't think they have the mindset to become Healers.


My suggestions for an alternative? Spontaneously, these come to my mind:

- Give Rangers Healing abilities as a supernatural ability. They deal with lving beings most of the time and know how they work. To balance it, give them Rogue BAB, bad Reflex Save and no extra Fighting Feats

- For the same reason, Druids can be healers, too. Remove their Wild Shape and replace it with Healing Abilities.

- Alter the Cleric's base class to become a mundane Healer class. Something like an old hag with expertise in body, mind and health. Give them access to a spell list, containing something like the Healing Domain, Strength Domain and some Transmutation/Enchantment/Illusion spells, throw in Survival-related skills and maybe some other special abilities to balance it (Improved Poison use or whatever you can think of)

Mike_G
2007-10-11, 10:11 AM
Mike: Giving a class more options makes it weaker? Maybe it will make the individuals weaker, but the class as a whole becomes stronger.

Well, maybe, but the only thing that matters, in game anyway, is the individual casters that take part in the campaign. The theoretical power of the class is largely irrelevant.

As is, a Wizard can do anything, given prep time. That isn't going away. But he can only do so much in a given day. Resources diverted to Healing would have been used for other spells much more overpowering than healing.

For a Sorcerer, it's even more of a nerf, if they spend a precious Known slot on a healing spell.

The practical difference is that characters spend more dough on wands and scrolls of healing and restoring spells, which the wizard can now use. This gold would have been spent on items anyway, so it's not a power boost, just a power restructuring.



If the role of the Healer can be fulfilled by the Wizard, the average party of 4 is likely to contain at least 2 Wizards. Worse, a party without Wizard has become entirely unthinkable.

Again, I disagree. A Ranger, Paladin, Bard or Rogue with a decent UMD can fill the Healer role quite well.

Beside, why should every god's followers be the Healers? Why would Wee Jas be about healing and turning undead? The Cleric out of the PHB is great for a Cleric of Pelor, but silly for Wee Jas, Olidimara, Hextor, Vecna, Ehlohna, and so on. In my game, a follower of Wee Jas should be a Wizard, and may prestige into the custom priest class for that particular god, gaining powers appropriate to Wee Jas. Who won't necessarily get Cure spells from that goddess, since she doesn't care.



Why a caster shouldn't be able to learn Healing Spells? Think of Vaarsuvius. Try asking V to spend one of his precious world-altering spell-slots to deal with the little flesh wound of yours. Vaarsuvius would feel insulted.


For some Wizards, sure, but I don't see where every Wizard needs to have the mindset of Varsuvius. V is a perfectly acceptable Wizard stereotype, but hardly the only way to play a Wizard.



Wizards devote their entire life to unlock the secrets of the universe, shaping matter and minds at will and breaking the laws of science wherever they can. However, if you want to heal someone, you need a different expertise. You need to know how a human being works, how its health can be maintained and how its wounds and ailments can be treated.


Which is also study. Galeleo and Da Vinci tried to unlock the secrets of the universe and the stars, but also of human anatomy.




I don't think, Wizards would spend time learning about this boring stuff when they could learn how to blow up the world instead.



I think of Wizards like Scientists. Doctors gte a science degree, the same as nuclear physicists.



Yes, Wizards cast spells, too. But I don't think they have the mindset to become Healers.


Forcing a "mindset" on a class is pretty invasive. I'd as soon let the player determine that.




Now that you've given them Healing, the incentive to play anything but a Wizard is becoming slim.


As far as incentive to not play a Wizard, in our group people who want to hit things with a sword play a Fighter, those who want to sneak play a Rogue. That's all the incentive to not play a Wizard we seem to need.

We actually have a party right now with no wizard. We have a Fighter, a Rogue, a Bard, a Warlock, a Ranger and a Sorcerer. Because people wanted to play a Fighter, a Rogue, a Bard, a Warlock, a Ranger and a Sorcerer. Nobody said "Sweet! Now I can Batman and heal! I'm playing a Wizard!"

The change works fine for my group, in my campaign world.