Factotum's cunning knowledge + Bardic knack

[Endril]

Hello all,

Surprisingly, I couldn't find the answer to this question anywhere online. I've been using cunning knowledge with my factotum/bard, and realized I'm supposed to have at least 1 rank in each skill I use it on. I have bardic knack and jack of all trades, so I can attempt any skill check, and can treat my ranks in each skill as half my bard levels. The problem is there are some specifics in the wording that make it unclear if cunning knowledge works. Does anyone have more insight they can share on this?

Thank you,

[Venger]

Hello all,

Surprisingly, I couldn't find the answer to this question anywhere online. I've been using cunning knowledge with my factotum/bard, and realized I'm supposed to have at least 1 rank in each skill I use it on. I have bardic knack and jack of all trades, so I can attempt any skill check, and can treat my ranks in each skill as half my bard levels. The problem is there are some specifics in the wording that make it unclear if cunning knowledge works. Does anyone have more insight they can share on this?

Thank you,

cunning knowledge doesn't care if the ranks are actual ranks or not, so bardic knack will allow you to use cunning knowledge.

that said, if the skill is trained only, bardic knack will not work. jack of all trades does allow you to make trained only checks, but only in doing it normally, not in conjunction with bardic knack, so that won't cascade down and let you use cunning knowledge

[Mato]

What Vengar is trying to say is with trained-only skills, bardic knack says you still need one actual rank to use it and jack of all trades only gives you 1/2 a rank.

[Endril]

What Vengar is trying to say is with trained-only skills, bardic knack says you still need one actual rank to use it and jack of all trades only gives you 1/2 a rank.

I appreciate the input from both of you, but the DM(s) already approve adding bardic knack to untrained skills with jack of all trades. What bardic knack says is that you need 1 rank to attempt the check, not to receive the ranks. You get those whenever you're able to make the skill check, per the first sentence of the feature.

The interaction with cunning knowledge would be more clear to me if jack of all trades was worded correctly. It says you effectively have 1/2 rank in each skill so you can attempt the check. However, you're required to have 1 rank in an untrained skill to attempt it.

My issue with it is the cascade effect Vengar was referring to. I can make the attempt because I have jack of all trades; since I can make the attempt I get the ranks from bardic knack; since I get the ranks, can I then apply cunning knowledge?

I was just wondering if anyone else has had to make a ruling on this before, and if there's errata or something I might be missing somewhere.

[Venger]

What Vengar is trying to say is with trained-only skills, bardic knack says you still need one actual rank to use it and jack of all trades only gives you 1/2 a rank.
That's what I said, thanks.


I appreciate the input from both of you, but the DM(s) already approve adding bardic knack to untrained skills with jack of all trades. What bardic knack says is that you need 1 rank to attempt the check, not to receive the ranks. You get those whenever you're able to make the skill check, per the first sentence of the feature.

The interaction with cunning knowledge would be more clear to me if jack of all trades was worded correctly. It says you effectively have 1/2 rank in each skill so you can attempt the check. However, you're required to have 1 rank in an untrained skill to attempt it.

My issue with it is the cascade effect Vengar was referring to. I can make the attempt because I have jack of all trades; since I can make the attempt I get the ranks from bardic knack; since I get the ranks, can I then apply cunning knowledge?

I was just wondering if anyone else has had to make a ruling on this before, and if there's errata or something I might be missing somewhere.
What Venger said was how bardic knack works. Bardic knack does not power itself with its own ranks. If that were how it worked, it wouldn't talk about needing ranks in the skills. You must have 1 or more ranks in the skill from other sources (such as skill points) to activate bardic knack.

Jack of all trades gives you 1/2 a rank in all skills. You need 1 rank, so it does not power cunning knowledge. What's your issue with how jack of all trades is worded?

No. You can either:
1) attempt an trained only skill you have no ranks in through jack of all trades. if you do this, you are treated as having 1/2 rank and cannot use bardic knack or cunning knowledge
2) attempt an trained only skill you have at least 1 rank in. if you do this, you may use bardic knack and cunning knowledge if you like

No errata is necessary, so none has been made

[Endril]

What Venger said was how bardic knack works. Bardic knack does not power itself with its own ranks. If that were how it worked, it wouldn't talk about needing ranks in the skills. You must have 1 or more ranks in the skill from other sources (such as skill points) to activate bardic knack.

Nowhere in the PHBII does it say "You must have 1 or more ranks in the skill from other sources to activate bardic knack". What it does say is "you must have at least 1 actual rank to attempt the check", which echoes the statement on trained only skills on page 66 of the PHB. This tells us that the bardic knack class feature, on its own, does not allow you to even attempt untrained skill checks. It also says you treat half your level as ranks "when making any skill check". That's the only condition listed in the book.

This is also moot, since I already know bardic knack will work in the game I'm playing in. I'm just trying to determine how jack of all trades and bardic knack would work with cunning knowledge, but I may have to wait until I'm at the game.

[Endril]

Jack of all trades gives you 1/2 a rank in all skills. You need 1 rank, so it does not power cunning knowledge. What's your issue with how jack of all trades is worded?

It's not a big issue, because I've never seen it ruled RAW, but jack of all trades does nothing by the book. It gives you .5 ranks, and the PHB says you have to have 1 full rank to attempt an untrained skill check.

[Venger]

Nowhere in the PHBII does it say "You must have 1 or more ranks in the skill from other sources to activate bardic knack". What it does say is "you must have at least 1 actual rank to attempt the check", which echoes the statement on trained only skills on page 66 of the PHB. This tells us that the bardic knack class feature, on its own, does not allow you to even attempt untrained skill checks. It also says you treat half your level as ranks "when making any skill check". That's the only condition listed in the book.

This is also moot, since I already know bardic knack will work in the game I'm playing in. I'm just trying to determine how jack of all trades and bardic knack would work with cunning knowledge, but I may have to wait until I'm at the game.

Since you're playing with house rules and already know how bardic knack works in your game, why did you ask how it actually works if you're going to ignore the answer when someone explains it to you?

The important word in the raw is "actual." bardic knack doesn't give you actual ranks, you just treat your lvl/2 as ranks. they're not actual ranks.

If bardic knack powers itself in your game, then yes, you can use it with cunning knowledge, and there's no reason for you to take jack of all trades, since it won't do anything.

[Endril]

Since you're playing with house rules and already know how bardic knack works in your game, why did you ask how it actually works if you're going to ignore the answer when someone explains it to you?

The important word in the raw is "actual." bardic knack doesn't give you actual ranks, you just treat your lvl/2 as ranks. they're not actual ranks.

If bardic knack powers itself in your game, then yes, you can use it with cunning knowledge, and there's no reason for you to take jack of all trades, since it won't do anything.

I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm quoting directly from the book, and that's what we're following, not house rules. I also said I'm looking for how cunning knowledge interacts with bardic knack and jack of all trades, not how bardic knack interacts with jack of all trades. Every DM I've spoken to agrees that bardic knack works with jack of all trades, because of the description I quoted.

Here's how bardic knack actually works: "When making any skill check, you can use 1/2 your bard level in place of the number of ranks you have in the skill".

It doesn't say you have to have ranks in a skill to receive this benefit.

"If the skill doesn't allow untrained checks, you must have at least 1 actual rank to attempt the check".

This also doesn't say you have to have ranks in a skill to receive this benefit. Rather, you have to have a rank to attempt the check, and you have to attempt the check to receive the benefit. This sentence echoes page 66 of the PHB, which is negated by the jack of all trades feat.

"The important word in the raw is "actual." bardic knack doesn't give you actual ranks, you just treat your lvl/2 as ranks. they're not actual ranks."

The word "actual" is in the sentence that echoes page 66 of the PHB. As in, the virtual ranks granted by bardic knack don't allow you to make trained only skill checks. I already agree with that.

The question is if they work for cunning knowledge, but you said cunning knowledge doesn't care if the skill ranks are actual. Cunning knowledge works "when making a check involving a skill in which you have at least 1 rank", so I'm not seeing a definite answer there.

"If bardic knack powers itself in your game, then yes, you can use it with cunning knowledge, and there's no reason for you to take jack of all trades, since it won't do anything."

Nobody is saying bardic knack powers itself. Again, I'm taking it exactly from the book, which verbatim works "when making any skill check". You need jack of all trades to make untrained skill checks.

[Venger]

Nowhere in the PHBII does it say "You must have 1 or more ranks in the skill from other sources to activate bardic knack". What it does say is "you must have at least 1 actual rank to attempt the check", which echoes the statement on trained only skills on page 66 of the PHB. This tells us that the bardic knack class feature, on its own, does not allow you to even attempt untrained skill checks. It also says you treat half your level as ranks "when making any skill check". That's the only condition listed in the book.

This is also moot, since I already know bardic knack will work in the game I'm playing in. I'm just trying to determine how jack of all trades and bardic knack would work with cunning knowledge, but I may have to wait until I'm at the game.

For skills you're allowed to make untrained, no. You can use bardic knack with no ranks if you feel like it.

For trained-only skills (or to take 10) you must have actual ranks. The ranks bardic knack provides are not actual ranks.

As I've explained repeatedly, for skills you can use untrained, you can use cunning knowledge alongside bardic knack.

For trained-only skills, you can use cunning knowledge only if you have at least 1 actual rank (not 1/2 a rank from jack of all trades) from some other source in tandem with bardic knack.


It's not a big issue, because I've never seen it ruled RAW, but jack of all trades does nothing by the book. It gives you .5 ranks, and the PHB says you have to have 1 full rank to attempt an untrained skill check.
Jack of all trades allows you to make trained-only skill checks without investing ranks. It doesn't give you .5 ranks, you just treat yourself as though you had them. Specific trumps general. It doesn't matter what the phb says on p66.


The question is if they work for cunning knowledge, but you said cunning knowledge doesn't care if the skill ranks are actual. Cunning knowledge works "when making a check involving a skill in which you have at least 1 rank", so I'm not seeing a definite answer there.
What about what I've explained to you is not definite?