Tinker's Tools; what SHOULD they do?

[Zhorn]

Generally I'm unsatisfied with Xanathar's take on Tinkerer's Tools. According to that book, Tinker's Tools are for mending torn cloths, sharpening swords and patching tattered chainmail. Strictly repairing mundane things and not manufacturing anything. To me those are side aspects of other tool proficiencies. Go weaver if it's for mending cloth, leatherworker for hides, smith tools for armor and blades.

I'm much more in favour of tinker being closer to a mechanical/clockwork style of tinkerer, much like the graphic used on the same page in Xanathar's (XGtE p84) and in keeping with the style of Tinker that Rock Gnomes have as a racial trait (PHB p37).

At baseline, it would enable simple constructions like Hunting Traps, Block and Tackles, Crossbows, etc. Things with moving parts and mechanisms.
At mid levels (or with access to schematics), it would give the ability to make Repeating Crossbows (OotA p224), Pistols and Muskets (DMG p268) (smoke powder not included, that's Alchemy). Or if playing with the big set pieces, the Tinker would be responsible for constructing/maintaining siege engines, airships and the like.
And DM permitting, the pinnacle of Tinker proficiency is the Apparatus of Kwalish.

So with that in mind, what SHOULD be within the domain of Tinker's Tools?

Edit: While I'm aware that the Artificer is in the pipeline with its Unearthed Arcana playtesting; I'm not really interesting in working on a full class which is still a bit of a mess. Constructing devices shouldn't need to be a class feature.

[stoutstien]

Generally I'm unsatisfied with Xanathar's take on Tinkerer's Tools. According to that book, Tinker's Tools are for mending torn cloths, sharpening swords and patching tattered chainmail. Strictly repairing mundane things and not manufacturing anything. To me those are side aspects of other tool proficiencies. Go weaver if it's for mending cloth, leatherworker for hides, smith tools for armor and blades.

I'm much more in favour of tinker being closer to a mechanical/clockwork style of tinkerer, much like the graphic used on the same page in Xanathar's (XGtE p84) and in keeping with the style of Tinker that Rock Gnomes have as a racial trait (PHB p37).

At baseline, it would enable simple constructions like Hunting Traps, Block and Tackles, Crossbows, etc. Things with moving parts and mechanisms.
At mid levels (or with access to schematics), it would give the ability to make Repeating Crossbows (OotA p224), Pistols and Muskets (DMG p268) (smoke powder not included, that's Alchemy). Or if playing with the big set pieces, the Tinker would be responsible for constructing/maintaining siege engines, airships and the like.
And DM permitting, the pinnacle or Tinker proficiency is the Apparatus of Kwalish.

So with that in mind, what SHOULD be within the domain of Tinker's Tools?

Edit: While I'm aware that the Artificer is in the pipeline with its Unearthed Arcana playtesting; I'm not really interesting in working on a full class which is still a bit of a mess. Constructing devices shouldn't need to be a class feature.

I am a big fan of tool proficiency in general and I have a solid spot for tinkering.

I've started adding blueprints as treasure and able to be purchased that can be used to provide items they can make like the popular one shot wrist hand xbow

[Crgaston]

Traditionally, in the real world, Tinkers were travelling repairpersons. So fixing pots, silverware, etc. This is what the 5e Tinker's Tools represents.

What you're describing sounds more like an Inventor or an Engineer.

The word 'tinker' has been recently applied in fantasy to the activities you describe, but since Tinker's Tools are already a thing in 5e, you might be better off just creating a new tool proficiency to cover them.

[Zhorn]

Traditionally, in the real world, Tinkers were travelling repairpersons. So fixing pots, silverware, etc. This is what the 5e Tinker's Tools represents.

What you're describing sounds more like an Inventor or an Engineer.

The word 'tinker' has been recently applied in fantasy to the activities you describe, but since Tinker's Tools are already a thing in 5e, you might be better off just creating a new tool proficiency to cover them.

Except that the PHB already uses Tinker's Tools for the inventor/engineer flavor, which I mentioned in my initial post
... in keeping with the style of Tinker that Rock Gnomes have as a racial trait (PHB p37)...It grants proficiency with the Tinker's Tools and uses them to make tiny clockwork devices. I'm just wanting to expand on that aspect. Adding on a NEW tool proficiency is superfluous when there is something already set up to be thematically consistent with what I'm looking to do.

[Tanarii]

What you're describing is taking a unique ability of Rock Gnomes, and giving it to anyone with the tools.

Edit: you're making me curious when the word evolved from an iterant tinsmith to a mechanical gadgeteer though.

[Crgaston]

Except that the PHB already uses Tinker's Tools for the inventor/engineer flavor, which I mentioned in my initial postIt grants proficiency with the Tinker's Tools and uses them to make tiny clockwork devices. I'm just wanting to expand on that aspect. Adding on a NEW tool proficiency is superfluous when there is something already set up to be thematically consistent with what I'm looking to do.

Gothcha. I just read that as more of a Rock Gnome racial trait than a function of Tinker's Tools proficiency. Hence my reference to "recently applied in fantasy."

Your post asked what they SHOULD do.

I guess they should do whatever you want them to. There aren't written rules for tool proficiencies scaling with level so you're already into the realm of making stuff up (in a good way!). The abilities you outlined in the first post seem more than reasonable, with the possible exception of needing the services of a Smith with a forge to make gun barrels. And crafting an Artifact (the Apparatus) without magic seems a little over the top, unless you're also letting 20th level Fighters with Smith's Tools make +3 weapons and armor. But as you said, with DM approval... so yeah, definitely not out of bounds if that's the flavor character you're aiming for.

Edit... semi-ninjaed... I take too long to post. :)

[Zhorn]

What you're describing is taking a unique ability of Rock Gnomes, and giving it to anyone with the tools.
Similar, but not exactly the same.
I'm describing something in the same theme of what they do, but I've not said to give anyone the baseline ability to make the specific items that Rock Gnomes get. Though if schematics were available, then anyone should be able to do so using the relevant tools and proficiency. I don't see that as any different to another crafter making a shield, club, javelin, darts or blowgun needles out of a monster they killed when Lizardfolk have the Cunning Artisan feature.
A race getting a crafting feature as baseline shouldn't mean that no one else gets to learn it at all. Someone of another race has to go that extra step to get the proficiency that one race gets by default, which usually means picking the tool proficiency over getting something else.

[Zhorn]

There aren't written rules for tool proficiencies scaling with level so you're already into the realm of making stuff up (in a good way!).
Not making up as much as you'd think. I deviate a lot from the cost part of it, but the DMG (p129) has a table on crafting and required levels (which I only change to be based on proficiency bonus breakpoints for a more even spread).

And crafting an Artifact (the Apparatus) without magic seems a little over the top, unless you're also letting 20th level Fighters with Smith's Tools make +3 weapons and armor.
I'd let a non-magic crafter hire a spell-caster of appropriate skill to assist in the magic-imbuing process just the same as the magic-user hiring someone with a crafting skill they lacked to make the base item to magicafy. Though for the Apparatus of Kwelish, I'd DM rule it as mostly non-magic-mechanical with the exception for its power source (elemental engine like in an airship perhaps?).
In either case, the Apparatus of Kwelish (Legendary) wouldn't be craftable till level 17 (+6 proficiency bonus)
DMG wouldn't have +3 weapons and armor (Very Rare) craftable till level 11, my variant has them needing level 13 (+5 proficiency bonus)

Both are late game crafting though (and very expensive). My main interest is in the early stuff, hence mainly listing mundane items.


The abilities you outlined in the first post seem more than reasonable, with the possible exception of needing the services of a Smith with a forge to make gun barrels.
Yeah, mostly that's a handwave though. Crafting is most usually done in a town with a workshop
"What do you mean I can't work on forging this sword while exploring Chult? Worst DM ever!"
and as such purchasing required materials is what represents the gold cost
"Wait up. You're saying that I can't convert my gold into crafting materials unless the town I'm in is able to sell what I need? Zhorn's gone mad with power!"
It's all minor details in how you want to handle crafting at your own table. In broad strokes, I'm happy with just establishing an item-family list that fits into what SHOULD be on the Tinker's crafting list. Cost and Crafting Time are things I've already got a system for and are only tangentially relevant to what this thread is focused on.

Pulleys, levers, springs, gears, triggers, coils. These are what come to mind for me when I hear Tinker, and the items I listed seem to me that they fit this category more than Smithing or Woodcarving.

[NNescio]

What you're describing is taking a unique ability of Rock Gnomes, and giving it to anyone with the tools.

Edit: you're making me curious when the word evolved from an iterant tinsmith to a mechanical gadgeteer though.

Tinker(e) (noun, "tinsmith", "someone who works with tin") → Tinker (noun, "traveling tinsmith, usually takes on small-scale mending jobs", ~14th century) → Tinker (noun, "Not very skilled metalsmith/small time craftsman who goes around mending odds and ends") → Tinker (verb, "to work as a tinker", ~16th century) → Tinker (verb, "wasting time doing something useless", ~17th century) → Tinker (verb, "wasting time fooling around with small gadgets") → Tinker (noun, "someone who's preoccupied with fooling around with small gadgets") → Tinker (noun, "someone who's good at fixing, making, and modifying small gadgets).

[Tanarii]

Similar, but not exactly the same.
I'm describing something in the same theme of what they do, but I've not said to give anyone the baseline ability to make the specific items that Rock Gnomes get. Though if schematics were available, then anyone should be able to do so using the relevant tools and proficiency. I don't see that as any different to another crafter making a shield, club, javelin, darts or blowgun needles out of a monster they killed when Lizardfolk have the Cunning Artisan feature.
IMO if you're going to do that, make them the equivalent of magical items and use the Xgte rules for building magical items. Not mundane items.

That means:
1) Requires a formula (schematic)
2) has a rarity rating that determines base cost & time to craft
3) requires a special ingredient from adventuring
4) requires appropriate tool proficiency (Tinkers)

Edit: thanks Nnescio!

[Zhorn]

IMO if you're going to do that, make them the equivalent of magical items and use the Xgte rules for building magical items. Not mundane items.

That means:
1) Requires a formula (schematic)
2) has a rarity rating that determines base cost & time to craft
3) requires a special ingredient from adventuring
4) requires appropriate tool proficiency (Tinkers)


Mundane items are a good thing to include at baseline because it gives the players a tangible list of what they can expect to be able to make. Xanathar's entry on Alchemy is a perfect example of what I'm looking at as it includes some mundane adventuring gear (acid, alchemist's fire, antitoxin, oil, perfume, soap) that the PC will know how to make by just having the tool proficiency. In the case of Rock Gnomes, they would in addition have their clockwork toy, fire starter and music box as known recipes, where any other character would have to find a method to actively learn those.

1) That's the intention for the later stuff not included at baseline. Schematics as the result of treasure, purchases, training, or research.
2) Yep; this is building upon a crafting system I posted a while back [ http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579877-Adjusted-Crafting-Rules ]
3) Cases-by-case basis; but yes, also included in the system
4) Check


Edit: thanks Nnescio!
@Nnescio. Yes, thankyou for that. Neat bit of trivia :smallsmile:

[Chrizzt]

In a similar vein, I also wondered why the jeweler profession as written seems not to include also skills in gold and silver smithing, so that to make a jeweled ring would also need proficiency in metalworking..

As written, the jeweler kit proficiency is only about gems..

[Zhorn]

In a similar vein, I also wondered why the jeweler profession as written seems not to include also skills in gold and silver smithing, so that to make a jeweled ring would also need proficiency in metalworking..

As written, the jeweler kit proficiency is only about gems..

It is jumping a bit off my intended topic, but I'll take a crack at that one anyway.

In that case, wires made of precious metals would normally fall under crafting materials which would be purchased in a general handwave fashion. Very similar to metal piping that Crgaston brought up when discussing gun barrels, another professions makes the component pieces, but you just treat it as miscellaneous crafting materials of 'x' value.
The centre piece of most Jewler's Tools crafting will be a gemstone of some form, but the rest of the crafting is cutting and twisting wire into filigree to house the gem. The don't need to make the materials, just get them from a place that makes sense.

Bringing this back to Tinker's Tools, they would get their base materials from Smiths, Glassblowers, Woodcarvers and such (I intend to use dismantling contraptions for parts also), and those are used for their own crafting. Don't get bogged down too much in all the exact components for each craft (unless you enjoy the roleplay of it) and just say "I'll buy a range of crafting materials for my tool proficiency... say 200 gp worth".

[Tanarii]

In a similar vein, I also wondered why the jeweler profession as written seems not to include also skills in gold and silver smithing, so that to make a jeweled ring would also need proficiency in metalworking..

As written, the jeweler kit proficiency is only about gems..Because Finesmithing is apparently lumped together with armors and locksmiths.

[Bjarkmundur]

The entire tool and skill list feels a little bit off. I encourage everyone to simply get rid of the whole thing and create their own campaign-specific skill list of 12-15 skills for the players to enjoy. Removes trap options and meaningless clutter on a character sheet (like gaming set).

Many DMs have 'least favorite' skills, but forget to let their players know. For example, in one of my games as a player, everybody keeps jumping and climbing all over the place. For 6 sessions not a single athletics roll has been made. Would've been nice to know that before hand, honestly.

Same goes for tools. If a DM has no use for a tinkerer's tool, don't include it as an option. I'd much rather get that herbalism tool for half-off healing potions than invest in a inventor-fantasy that's never gonna get fulfilled (until the artificer, that is)

[Monster Manuel]

When balancing out what Tinker's Tools are able to do, I look at the cost of the tool kits compared to others. Tinker's Tools are one of 3 which cost 50GP, the others being the Poisoner's Kit and the Alchemists Tools.

With the poisoner's kit, you get your proficiency bonus to create and use poisons. With Alchemists' tools you can make alchemical items. Both of these are pretty valuable abilities. Therefore, it seems fair to me to say that the 50GP tinker's kit can do more than patch holes in pots.

It's not a perfect metric...the glassblower's tools are 30 GP and there's not a lot you can do with those, while the Herbalist's kit is only 5, and you can use that to craft healing potions and antivenoms and whatnot.

I like to let people proficient with the tinker's tools to craft traps and other simple machines, with reasonable difficulty rolls. I also let people with this proficiency repair just about anything they come across that needs fixing. Like a skill-based, time-consuming, expensive mending cantrip that doesn't always work. I kind of use it as a catch-all; anything that can be jury-rigged or repaired can be done with Tinker's Tools. They're a fantasy medieval version of MacGuyver's paper clip and bubble gum wrapper...

[NNescio]

When balancing out what Tinker's Tools are able to do, I look at the cost of the tool kits compared to others. Tinker's Tools are one of 3 which cost 50GP, the others being the Poisoner's Kit and the Alchemists Tools.

With the poisoner's kit, you get your proficiency bonus to create and use poisons. With Alchemists' tools you can make alchemical items. Both of these are pretty valuable abilities. Therefore, it seems fair to me to say that the 50GP tinker's kit can do more than patch holes in pots.

It's not a perfect metric...the glassblower's tools are 30 GP and there's not a lot you can do with those, while the Herbalist's kit is only 5, and you can use that to craft healing potions and antivenoms and whatnot.

Yeah, I agree, even from a simulationist point of view, it's kinda ridiculous that the hobo handyman (i.e. itinerant who goes around mending odds and ends for a living) needs 50 GP to practice his trade.

[Zhorn]

The entire tool and skill list feels a little bit off. I encourage everyone to simply get rid of the whole thing and create their own campaign-specific skill list of 12-15 skills for the players to enjoy. Removes trap options and meaningless clutter on a character sheet (like gaming set).
There is a bit of clutter I'm looking to cut down on, but in terms of crafting rules and artisan tools I'm more inclined to define what is suitable as an adventuring crafting proficiency and what is a profession proficiency.

Good for crafting adventure gear:
Alchemist’s supplies
Leatherworker’s tools
Smith’s tools
Tinker’s tools
Weaver’s tools
Woodcarver's tools

And these would be more for character flavour / working professions:
Brewer’s supplies
Carpenter’s tools
Cobbler’s tools
Cook’s utensils
Glassblower’s tools
Mason’s tools
Painter’s supplies
Potter’s tools


Same goes for tools. If a DM has no use for a tinkerer's tool, don't include it as an option. I'd much rather get that herbalism tool for half-off healing potions than invest in a inventor-fantasy that's never gonna get fulfilled (until the artificer, that is)

That being said, It's usually when a player asks if there is something they can use to achieve 'x' , or what could they do with 'y' that motivates me to write something up for them. I have not put much thought into a systemized rule set for masons or brewers yet, but if someone rolled a dwarf with those traits, you can be sure I'll get notes ready for the things they inquire about.
I try not to think in terms of "what use as a DM do I have for these things"
but instead "What can I use in game to facilitate what my players want to have fun with"


The artificer concerns me though. If so much of its identity is tied up in being a maker of magic items, then to maintain the theme of them being really good at it, non-artificer crafting has to be nerfed to be worse than what they can do purely to give the class a reason to exist. If your table's rules for crafting is stronger than what the artificer can do, then it's in the player's best interest to roll a different class and get the full benefits of a whole class AND crafting.

[Nagog]

Traditionally, in the real world, Tinkers were travelling repairpersons. So fixing pots, silverware, etc. This is what the 5e Tinker's Tools represents.

What you're describing sounds more like an Inventor or an Engineer.

The word 'tinker' has been recently applied in fantasy to the activities you describe, but since Tinker's Tools are already a thing in 5e, you might be better off just creating a new tool proficiency to cover them.

Considering the high volume of issues caused by broken silverware in campaigns I play, having a tool proficiency to fix those is essential to a balanced party dynamic.

In all seriousness, I agree with OP, Tinkers Tools are much more viable when they do something useful. I have never required nor been required to sharpen a sword in D&D. If, according to some obscure rule or comment somewhere that doing so confers some kind of bonus, any kind of bonus at all, I'd be at least slightly interested in doing so, but to my knowledge there isn't so... Tinkers Tools are effectively useless.

[Bjarkmundur]

The artificer concerns me though. If so much of its identity is tied up in being a maker of magic items, then to maintain the theme of them being really good at it, non-artificer crafting has to be nerfed to be worse than what they can do purely to give the class a reason to exist. If your table's rules for crafting is stronger than what the artificer can do, then it's in the player's best interest to roll a different class and get the full benefits of a whole class AND crafting.

It really depends on your economy, honestly. If you only need a proficiency and the ability to cast spell x to craft magic item z, it's still gonna cost a fortune. Throwing a recipe at a player which includes a spell he doesn't have access to (needs to find a spell scroll) and either a rare ingredient (the heart of an abberration with CR more than 3) or a bunch of money makes it a sidequest on its own. Seeing how quests are generally ways to get magic items, letting a player know which magic it is isn't going to break anything. This is far more limited than what the artificer does, and is much more hazzle.

You could make a sort-of-kinda-i'll-just-handwave-it-anyways generalized system based on gold cost. For example items up to 50gp can be made during long rest, items between 51-200gp can be made during downtime, items of 201-400gp can be made during downtime after level 5. Items more expensive that that can be researched during downtime, at the end of which the DM grants you instructions or guidelines on how it can be crafted during downtime, usually after a quest.

I do like your method of "let a player choose, and then tailor specifically to him". I do that as well (although you encourage it way better than I do), but make sure the 'core' tools have balanced guidelines, so a player can take an educated guess on what his 'custom' tool might do for him.

In my game I grouped the 'big' tools as proficiencies, but kept the number of skills the same. Tinker's tools are under a skill called "Finess Tools". You pick what kind of tool it is when you gain proficiency in the skill, and it can be used to gain gold during downtime, trigger guild-specific events and almost all of them serve as thieve's tools. I guess I keep it intentionally vague in hope I get a player who loves being a craftsperson and gets creative with it.

Merging tools into the skills raises the bar for how useful tools have to be in order to compete with the usefulness of skills, and with the added opportunity cost I can make tools far more impactful. Trying to make Gaming Set and Herbalism Kit at the same powerlevel is a nightmare. But upgrading Herbalism Kit to a skill and making it scale with character level makes it just as good as the average skill. I mean, if a character decides to take Herbalism Kit instead of perception, I want to make sure it is worth it in the long run.

[Zhorn]

Spending some time reading through the more recent Artificers in Unearthed Arcana from this year, I see they're not as off putting as the versions I had read previously, but I'm still not feeling them.
I maintain the opinion that specific forms of crafting shouldn't be uniquely restricted to particular races or classes, not unless magical crafting (and by extension tool proficiencies used for crafting in general), but that is just an opinion. And seeing as I prefer crafting being more open, that just means no Artificer PCs in my games. But as I play a little loose with my crafting restrictions, it has been working out more favourably for the players anyway, so no one's complaining.

In regards to quest items for crafting, I try to reserve those for special projects, such as making something above the expected power curve for the player's level. As much as I like the motivation for questing tied into resource gathering; most of my crafting overhaul is in favour of simplification and accessibility. Being said, if the players get a rare mcguffin, I'd let them use it to cover an amount of the crafting cost as long as they can narratively explain how it helps them make what they are after.

DM: You've successfully slain the young green dragon
PC: Neat! I harvest its teeth!
*rolls*
*results*
PC: I want to use these teeth to make a magic shortbow!
DM: If you can explain how.
PC: Ummm... Ok, I use the teeth to make magic arrows instead. Dragon tooth arrow heads.
DM: Makes sense to me. Ok, the teeth were from a CR 8 monster, so they'd count for an uncommon rarity level magic item; +1 ammunition, or an on hit poison damage effect, and will only cost as much to make regular arrows since you're supplying the rare materials already.

Trying to balance all the professions against each other is a nice goal to aim for, but is ultimately a pipe-dream. I just settle for the general crafting system I made earlier.

[Tanarii]

In regards to quest items for crafting, I try to reserve those for special projects, such as making something above the expected power curve for the player's level. As much as I like the motivation for questing tied into resource gathering; most of my crafting overhaul is in favour of simplification and accessibility. Being said, if the players get a rare mcguffin, I'd let them use it to cover an amount of the crafting cost as long as they can narratively explain how it helps them make what they are after.If it's as powerful as a common magic item, it should require the same difficulty and resources as a magic item of the equivalent rarity.

[Zhorn]

If it's as powerful as a common magic item, it should require the same difficulty and resources as a magic item of the equivalent rarity.
I'll give an example of what I mean:
Level 5 character is wanting to upgrade to their first set of magical armor. They slay a fearsome dragon and harvest its hide to make it. The material is suitably rare and magical and so covers the resource investment and just takes the labor cost to work it into shape.
Level 12 character just returned from a massive dungeon crawl and needs to replace their armor that took a few too many hits from a rust monster. Rather than go on ANOTHER quest to make something of the same tier as the level 5 character, they instead buy their materials in town at a premium spending their coin haul they've been building up..

The amount of gold to the CR value equivalence is going to vary game to game but the general principle is there. Players can choose to either be a big spender, OR go on special fetch quest because they've too poor to pay the local wizards premiums of fair dust residuum.

[Tanarii]

I'll give an example of what I mean:
Level 5 character is wanting to upgrade to their first set of magical armor. They slay a fearsome dragon and harvest its hide to make it. The material is suitably rare and magical and so covers the resource investment and just takes the labor cost to work it into shape.That's exactly what the Xanathar's expensive ingredient as part of creating a magical resource is.


Level 12 character just returned from a massive dungeon crawl and needs to replace their armor that took a few too many hits from a rust monster. Rather than go on ANOTHER quest to make something of the same tier as the level 5 character, they instead buy their materials in town at a premium spending their coin haul they've been building up.Eh, each unto their own. If you want to house-rule Rust Monsters to be less fearsome, go for it.


The amount of gold to the CR value equivalence is going to vary game to game but the general principle is there. Players can choose to either be a big spender, OR go on special fetch quest because they've too poor to pay the local wizards premiums of fair dust residuum.Nothing says you can't apply a patch of your own to the Xanathar's house rules. But make it equivalent. But to be balanced, they should have to pay the equivalent cost of creating a magical item PLUS something extra for the "special fetch quest", IMO probably the same again as the base cost would be reasonable. Plus quite likely something extra for a formula (or schematic). If it cost 200gp to make an uncommon item, you're looking at say another 200gp for the required item, plus (unless you rule formulas to the same rarity) 1d10x1000gp for the formula. That's what is 'balanced'. For the given-by-the-devs value of balance.

[Zhorn]

That's exactly what the Xanathar's expensive ingredient as part of creating a magical resource is.
Yes. I've stated as much regarding the crafting system I linked. This is a tweaked system, not an overhaul. Is there a particular point you are bringing to attention?


Eh, each unto their own. If you want to house-rule Rust Monsters to be less fearsome, go for it.
Less fearsome? Where are you getting that? Rust monsters destroy items, this character lost their armor. What's the nerf?


Nothing says you can't apply a patch of your own to the Xanathar's house rules. But make it equivalent. But to be balanced, they should have to pay the equivalent cost of creating a magical item PLUS something extra for the "special fetch quest", IMO probably the same again as the base cost would be reasonable. Plus quite likely something extra for a formula (or schematic). If it cost 200gp to make an uncommon item, you're looking at say another 200gp for the required item, plus (unless you rule formulas to the same rarity) 1d10x1000gp for the formula. That's what is 'balanced'. For the given-by-the-devs value of balance.
Doing the cost AND rare ingredient I find as overkill. The cost OR rare ingredient is more player friendly, and I can worry less about derailing the campaign as the players ignore the quest to sort out the Fire Giants at Iron Slag because the wizard needs the party to spend 3 weeks tracking down a unicorn horn.

Recipes and schematics I rule as one rarity level greater in value, but are more generally adaptable. ie: to make armor of fire resistance needs a schematics of resistance armor (of at least the same armor type), but if they were to later want to make lightning resist armor of the same type, the same schematics would be fine to use as an 'improvising the recipe'.

[Bjarkmundur]

Doing the cost AND rare ingredient I find as overkill. The cost OR rare ingredient is more player friendly, and I can worry less about derailing the campaign as the players ignore the quest to sort out the Fire Giants at Iron Slag because the wizard needs the party to spend 3 weeks tracking down a unicorn horn.

Recipes and schematics I rule as one rarity level greater in value, but are more generally adaptable. ie: to make armor of fire resistance needs a schematics of resistance armor (of at least the same armor type), but if they were to later want to make lightning resist armor of the same type, the same schematics would be fine to use as an 'improvising the recipe'.

yes, just, yes.

[Tanarii]

Yes. I've stated as much regarding the crafting system I linked. This is a tweaked system, not an overhaul. Is there a particular point you are bringing to attention?I'm not sure. I'd just had my coffee and now hours later I can't recall. Also apologies if my tone was abrasive.


Less fearsome? Where are you getting that? Rust monsters destroy items, this character lost their armor. What's the nerf?I think my line of thinking was being able to repair instead of having to replace makes them fearsome.


Doing the cost AND rare ingredient I find as overkill. The cost OR rare ingredient is more player friendly, and I can worry less about derailing the campaign as the players ignore the quest to sort out the Fire Giants at Iron Slag because the wizard needs the party to spend 3 weeks tracking down a unicorn horn.If you feel that way, then you feel that way. And if you have campaign considerations, you have campaign considerations.


Recipes and schematics I rule as one rarity level greater in value, but are more generally adaptable. ie: to make armor of fire resistance needs a schematics of resistance armor (of at least the same armor type), but if they were to later want to make lightning resist armor of the same type, the same schematics would be fine to use as an 'improvising the recipe'.I've found the one level greater is a real slowdown to crafting magic items, as far as purchasing formulas during downtime (as if a magic item) goes. But I have campaign considerations that include many mid level (T2) characters with decent cash flow that could conceivably create a glut of magic items for lower levels / 'alts' or henchmen. So I have to be careful. So it's great for my specific circumstances. Even hand-me-downs from retired characters is sometimes an issue.

[Zhorn]

Apology accepted over the tone thing. And likewise sorry if I seemed overly defensive at all.

*snip*
Ok, that makes more sense. I can understand you point of view on why you'd run things differently.
We'll still disagree on a fair amount, but I'm sure we can both agree those disagreements are rooted more in a difference of playstyle and how our tables operate.
I can be a real stickler for RAW in some areas, but if there's a mechanic/system that flat-out doesn't work for me, I'll tweak it till it does. Crafting strictly by the books is one of those. Timing and execution were too limiting for the allowances I give to my players.
As I'm running modules (heavily modified though) I have set pieces I'm working the party towards, plus running our games through a tabletop club at uni does mean we've only got a limited number of sessions before players go back home and are unable to attend sessions any more. If I was in more of a free-form game with people that lived the whole year locally, I would be more inclined to run with quests that would take the players off the map at every opportunity.
As we've got to wrap up story lines in 3 month blocks, I tend to steer away from systems that would intentionally direct players away from the campaign goal.
In our game I needn't worry about the hand-me-down issue all that much either, since we made it clear at session zero that I'm not running an army simulator, and have no interest in building mass combat. As such, NPC followers are kept very minimal in number and fragile enough that they're generally kept away from the fights.

Rust monsters I keep as doing what they say they do in their stat block. Equipment destruction scares me more than repairable equipment damage.

Rarity of plan/schematics I only treat as being of a level greater for the purposes of purchasing and creating. For the actual availability, common/uncommon/rare/very rare are all just category names, and they'll appear as frequently as I want them too. As mentioned, I adjusted the crafting rules because timing was already an issue, and I've no intention of slowing down that aspect beyond a certain point.

Anyway, this is all deviating off from my intended thread topic: What types of things to include as craftable via Tinker's Tools

In my notes I've listed the baseline recipes as
A Crossbow (hand, light, heavy)
A specialised tool set or kit (not including subsequent crafting materials and supplies they are listed to include)
An instrument
Block and tackle
Hunting Trap
Lamp
Lantern, bullseye
Lantern, hooded
Lock
Merchant's scale
Spyglass

Additional schematics can be learned via research or buying the recipes from vendors.

Along with a feature that lets them dismantle 'devices' for crafting materials


Harvest Mechanism: As a light activity, you can spend 10 minutes dismantling a trap, mechanism or clockwork contraption for materials to be used as Tinker's Tools Materials. When you have access to such a device, you can make Sleight of Hand or Investigation check (player's choice), harvesting an amount of Tinker's Tools Materials (gp value) based on the outcome and your proficiency modifier at the time, up to a limit based on the item being harvested.
• For contraptions with a known cost, the maximum amount of materials harvested is up to half of the items listed cost.
• For mechanical traps and locks, it is up to the Disarm DC's value in gold pieces.
• For mechanical constructs, it is up to one tenth of their XP value in gold pieces.



Result
Materials recovered


9 and lower
Nothing of value


10 to 14
1 proficiency dice worth


15 to 19
2 proficiency dice worth


20 and up
3 proficiency dice worth



(for Proficiency Die see Dungeon Master's Guide p263)

Tinker's Tools Materials can also be bought directly from appropriate vendors in towns. This is a separate amount to your regular wealth, retaining little to no value to regular merchants, and is used for crafting devices and contraptions.
Tinker's Tools Materials weigh 1 pound for every 10 gp worth.

This is a draft of what I will be giving players when they learn Tinker's Tools proficiency.