Best choice from Savage Species ( in my opinion )

[Conradine]

The Treant is mabye the only monster I would consider worth the exchange. These are the reasons:

1- ECL 12 for a 7 HD creature. Not bad, much lower than the giants for a creature as much strong and way more resilient.

2- Plant type. This is really, really good. Many immunities : mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, stunning and CRITICALS!!! Which alone means a lot of good things, since critical-immune creatures are also immune to sneak attacks, decapitation and generic physiology damage including bleeding.

3- A single specific weakness. Basically, get an item that protects you from fire and you're ok.

4- Huge size. Beside reach and bigger weapons this means, much more important ( in my humble opinion ) that very few creatures are able to swallow, wrestle, bullrush or trip your character. While if you choose to invest some specialization in wrestling skills you can easily overpower eve big guys like ogres.

5- Half damage from piercing attack. Not irrelevant: extremely annoying for archers.



Well, I think it's worth 12 level. Your opinion?

[Crake]

5- Half damage from piercing attack. Not irrelevant: extremely annoying for archers.

Minor nitpick, but this is an artefact from 3.0. 3.5 treants replace this with DR10/slashing. A lot of the savage species progressions actually suffer from this, like the succubus having a 10% chance to summon a balor instead of a 30% chance to summon a vrock.

[Ravens_cry]

Huge size is both a plus and negative, especially if the the campaign isn't tweaked with this in mind. Most spaces are made for medium creatures. You're going to be squeezing (with all the penalties therein) in any place made for Large creature, and won't be able to go down a 5 by 5 corridor or hallway, the most common kind, at all.

[Conradine]

Indeed it's a problem. Not good for dungeon.
But with a racial +16 Hide in the woods it makes for a great outdoors fighter / ambusher.

Well , there's also a level 1 arcane spell to reduce size if necessary.

[Crake]

Well , there's also a level 1 arcane spell to reduce size if necessary.

Reduce person only works on humanoids, which means that treants don't qualify, and as far as I'm aware, there's no reduce monster spell out there. The compression psionic power can work though, if you're using psionics, though it is personal and only lasts rounds per level, so if you don't want to play a psion, or to fork out tonnes of money making a custom item (assuming your DM allows that in the first place), it doesn't really help.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, depends on how you define "monster". If you include templates, I feel like Symbiotic Creature has to take the cake, even if it is rather tricky to do anything with the most conservative (and probably correct) interpretation of how its LA works. Anthropomorphic Animals also have a lot of really good options.

As a side note, Treants are actually pretty good candidates as hosts for Symbiotic Creatures.

[Crake]

Hmm, depends on how you define "monster". If you include templates, I feel like Symbiotic Creature has to take the cake, even if it is rather tricky to do anything with the most conservative (and probably correct) interpretation of how its LA works. Anthropomorphic Animals also have a lot of really good options.

As a side note, Treants are actually pretty good candidates as hosts for Symbiotic Creatures.

I suspect the OP was referring to the savage progressions.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Shrink collar, A&EG 80, reduces your size to Small but otherwise does not affect any of your abilities or stats, which allows you to use it when needed and otherwise not have to worry about it.

A couple of levels in psychic warrior plus either Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) or Practiced Manifester for a few bonus power points. Take expansion and compression and tweak your size from Large to Gargantuan a few times per day. More if you buy a few items. And if you boost your ML and augment your powers, you can go from Medium to Colossal.

[MisterKaws]

Hmm, depends on how you define "monster". If you include templates, I feel like Symbiotic Creature has to take the cake, even if it is rather tricky to do anything with the most conservative (and probably correct) interpretation of how its LA works. Anthropomorphic Animals also have a lot of really good options.

As a side note, Treants are actually pretty good candidates as hosts for Symbiotic Creatures.

They explain how the LA works at the beginning of the chapter: if the host has an LA, it goes up by +1. If it doesn't, then it is set to +1.

[Crake]

Shrink collar, A&EG 80, reduces your size to Small but otherwise does not affect any of your abilities or stats, which allows you to use it when needed and otherwise not have to worry about it.

Quite hard to make when the requisite spell, Reduce, was removed from the game and replaced with Reduce Person. Note that the former worked on any creature, the latter does not, so they are not interchangable, and not just a re-name. Without access to the removed spell, you cannot make the item in question.


A couple of levels in psychic warrior plus either Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) or Practiced Manifester for a few bonus power points. Take expansion and compression and tweak your size from Large to Gargantuan a few times per day. More if you buy a few items. And if you boost your ML and augment your powers, you can go from Medium to Colossal.

Not sure why the supernatural transformation part is necessary at all (assuming anyone would ever actually agree with that interpretation in the first place, but that's not the point of this thread).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Quite hard to make when the requisite spell, Reduce, was removed from the game and replaced with Reduce Person. Note that the former worked on any creature, the latter does not, so they are not interchangable, and not just a re-name. Without access to the removed spell, you cannot make the item in question.Compression works on any creature type, though it's self-only.

Else just buy the thing at the listed price and don't think about it too hard. Then again, reduce wasn't updated from 3.0, so it still exists as such in 3.5.


Not sure why the supernatural transformation part is necessary at all (assuming anyone would ever actually agree with that interpretation in the first place, but that's not the point of this thread).Simple. A significant ML boost (CL = HD), with the accompanying bonus power points based on Wisdom. As for Supernatural Transformation, psionics is explicitly innate (as it specifically says in the XPH). And if psi-like abilities aren't enough to be considered spell-likes on their own, the Magic mantle forces the issue, so psionics = magic, so psi-like abilities = spell-like abilities. That's assuming the DM doesn't see it that way in the first place.

[Conradine]

Guys, in your opinion, treants are or are not good choices?

[DeTess]

Guys, in your opinion, treants are or are not good choices?

Depends on the table. If its fairly low optimization, with people playing fighters and barbarians or the occasional ranger that forgets she has spells, and the game is about killing things, then it's nice. In a more political or skill-focussed game it's very bad as your skill-points are leagues behind everyone else's. If the other players play optimized spellcasters, then it's garbage. The druid or wizard will probably be able to turn into one of these (or something comparable) for significant amounts of time each day starting at level 7 or so, and they can do other things besides being a big plant as well.

[Conradine]

I can't wait to play a pine tree Treant with +1 Full Plate of Merry Christmas and an Huge +1 Candybar as weapon.

[Quertus]

Is the Treant any good? Eh, it's the chassis upon which I built my first 3e immortal, Sprout the Porter, so I suppose it's got it's uses. But it's got some definite drawbacks.

Balance to the table. Is what you built balanced and fun? If so, then you've got a win, simple as that.


Quite hard to make when the requisite spell, Reduce, was removed from the game and replaced with Reduce Person. Note that the former worked on any creature, the latter does not, so they are not interchangable, and not just a re-name. Without access to the removed spell, you cannot make the item in question.


Then again, reduce wasn't updated from 3.0, so it still exists as such in 3.5.

Yeah, there's no such concept as "removed from the game". If there is not a 3.5 version, then the 3.0 version still exists.

[MisterKaws]

Then again, reduce wasn't updated from 3.0, so it still exists as such in 3.5.


Yeah, there's no such concept as "removed from the game". If there is not a 3.5 version, then the 3.0 version still exists.

The Update Booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) explicitly states that Reduce was renamed to Reduce Person.

[Crake]

Simple. A significant ML boost (CL = HD), with the accompanying bonus power points based on Wisdom. As for Supernatural Transformation, psionics is explicitly innate (as it specifically says in the XPH). And if psi-like abilities aren't enough to be considered spell-likes on their own, the Magic mantle forces the issue, so psionics = magic, so psi-like abilities = spell-like abilities. That's assuming the DM doesn't see it that way in the first place.

Best case scenario, if one were to agree with all of that, you'd be able to supernatural transformation one of your powers, not all of them: "One of your innate spell-like abilities becomes a supernatural ability.". Admittedly, for the purposes of this thread, that would be enough, though on the grander scale, you most certainly cannot convert all of your psionics into Su with just one feat.

[ShurikVch]

They explain how the LA works at the beginning of the chapter: if the host has an LA, it goes up by +1. If it doesn't, then it is set to +1.Can you quote it?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Best case scenario, if one were to agree with all of that, you'd be able to supernatural transformation one of your powers, not all of them: "One of your innate spell-like abilities becomes a supernatural ability.". Admittedly, for the purposes of this thread, that would be enough, though on the grander scale, you most certainly cannot convert all of your psionics into Su with just one feat.Except class-based manifesting is marked as being under "Psionics [Ps]." One ability.

[Crake]

Except class-based manifesting is marked as being under "Psionics [Ps]." One ability.

It doesn't say one ability, it says one spell like ability. That's like saying creatures with SLAs with all of their SLAs listed under "Spell-like Abilities (Sp):" have all of their SLAs under one ability, so it counts toward making all of their SLAs supernatural. The feat specifically says pick one of your SLAs. If you want an example, take a look at a creature with innate psionics like the couatl or mind flayer, and see how they have "Psionics" and then listed under psionics is a bunch of SLAs. You can't just pick "psionics", you have to pick one of the abilities under psionics, as they are each individual spell-like abilities.

[Crichton]

You can't just pick "psionics", you have to pick one of the abilities under psionics, as they are each individual spell-like abilities.

Silly as it is, by RAW you can:



The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability"

Absolutely not RAI, but by the way they worded it, all class based manifesting is considered to be one single Psi-like Ability.

Still dependent on the so-called 'super transparency' of Magic Mantle, though, which is a discussion for another time.

[MisterKaws]

Can you quote it?

Here you go:


Templates often apply to monsters that cannot, or should not, be characters (for instance, because their Intelligence is too low). Level adjustments for such templates only apply if the resulting templated monster can be a character. In cases when a template makes an otherwise unplayable creature into a viable character (such as the incarnate construct template), this book gives level adjustments for the templated version of the creature.

[Quertus]

The Update Booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) explicitly states that Reduce was renamed to Reduce Person.

I'd… never heard of that before. And, with my growing senility, I'll probably still never have heard of it in short order.

But good to know (however briefly) that RAW matches RAI in this case.

[ShurikVch]

Here you go:Unfortunately, this isn't enough to understand how Symbiotic Creature's LA should work, because we have two basic creatures, not one.
Say, let's take Hobgoblin (LA +1) as a "host", and Myconid Junior Worker (LA +2) as a "guest"
So, what's the resulting LA?
+2?
+3?
+4?

[MisterKaws]

Unfortunately, this isn't enough to understand how Symbiotic Creature's LA should work, because we have two basic creatures, not one.
Say, let's take Hobgoblin (LA +1) as a "host", and Myconid Junior Worker (LA +2) as a "guest"
So, what's the resulting LA?
+2?
+3?
+4?

The HD is the host's, so the LA should be the host's as well.

[ShurikVch]

The HD is the host's, so the LA should be the host's as well.Any quotes?

[MisterKaws]

Any quotes?

This one is just assumption for RAI. The HD thing is said by the template itself.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Well crud. The template is actually more broken than I thought. And given the shenanigans I've accomplished with it, that's actually kind of impressive.

The most conservative reading is that the LA of the two creatures add (and then you add the +1 from the template). However, while I'd previously interpreted that as ruling out hosts and guests that had LA -, the rule from the beginning of the chapter is quite clear:


In cases when a template makes an otherwise unplayable creature into a viable character (such as the incarnate construct template), this book gives level adjustments for the templated version of the creature.

I suppose you could make it slightly more conservative by applying the +1 LA to both creatures, but at that point I think you're going against RAI and probably RAW.

The interpretation that you only use the host's LA (or only the guest's, I guess) is, I think, equally valid as far as trying to figure out what the heck the writers actually intended. Normally at this point I'd say that it's not as good an idea for game balance reasons, but with the new knowledge that you absolutely can just use non-LA creatures with better abilities I think that argument falls flat. Tauric Creature provides a precedent for this interpretation as well; it's +2 LA (added to that of the monstrous humanoid 'host') is clearly not related to the LA of the griffin 'guest'. (I wrote a longer post explaining this interpretation a while back, here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23860617&postcount=9)).

So yeah, by the end of this post, I guess I've changed my mind. +1 LA to that of the host is the only interpretation supported by precedent, and is only marginally more broken than any more conservative interpretations. Or +1 to that of the guest, I suppose that works just as well. Maybe pick the higher of the two, just as a passing nod to game balance?

[Crake]

Considering that symbiotic creature's level adjustment doesn't say "As host +1" or "As guest +1", but simply "+1" one would have to assume that you add both host and guest and then add 1.

[ShurikVch]

And if one of them is "LA: -", then it mean the whole Symbiotic Creature is "LA: -" too - after all, Bugsucker (the example creature) don't have any listed LA (no even that "+1"), but regular Bugbear have LA +1 (Races of Faerûn - pre-3.5, and just one month "younger" than Savage Species)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

And if one of them is "LA: -", then it mean the whole Symbiotic Creature is "LA: -" too

I thought that too, but it turns out not. The start of the chapter explicitly says that if a template makes a creature playable, it gains an LA based on the template. I'd quote it again, but I already did about three posts up. (The Bugsucker isn't a great example, because it doesn't list an LA and is also illegal by the template rules).

[MisterKaws]

And if one of them is "LA: -", then it mean the whole Symbiotic Creature is "LA: -" too - after all, Bugsucker (the example creature) don't have any listed LA (no even that "+1"), but regular Bugbear have LA +1 (Races of Faerûn - pre-3.5, and just one month "younger" than Savage Species)

Bugsucker is also made up of a Humanoid and a Magical Beast, which is illegal by RAW.

Don't ever use the original template examples as basis for arguments. They're always broken in one way or another. Every single damn time.