Assasination surprise and initiative confusion.

[b0ink]

So I have a player who is an assassination rogue and there is some confusion regarding it and low initiative rolls.

Scenario one
The rogue and a couple of allies all successfully sneak up on a group of enemies, they declare they want to attack them. Cool, initiative is rolled and the rogue lands last or at least lower then any enemy she can reach. The party attacks yada yada, and when the rogues turn comes up she is denied her crit bonus because by raw once you had your surprised turn you are no longer counted as being surprised.

This is all well and good, easy to understand although the rogue is naturally bummed out as their subclass bonus is totally negated by such a technicality.

Which brings me to..

Scenario two
Instead of attacking, the party holds their attacks to let the rogue attack first. She would still be after in the initiative order but since the others didn't reveal themselves yet, logically the enemies should still be surprised when the rogue attacks right? Even though technically they had their first turn and did essentially nothing as they had no clue they were about to be attacked, it's messy and confusing.

The latter strategy would also mean that the rest of the party essentially wastes their actions, even if they have ranged ready actions they generally won't be as good as a real action but that's another issue.

Unless I'm missing something I'm leaning towards simply home brewing surprise to just be universal status on the first round if you start with it or would that break the game in a way I'm not seeing?

[Lunali]

The only way I can make narrative sense of the rules the way they're written is that the intent to kill causes people to be on edge, enabling them to react to things that happen faster.

Be careful changing the rules on this though as the assassin subclass is balanced on the assumption that you won't be able to assassinate most of the time.

[Damon_Tor]

You're correct, the assassination auto-crit fails on a low initiative check.

No, having the rest of the party "delay" isn't a solution because (1) delay isn't a thing in 5e anyway and (2) initiative, and the turn order in general, is an abstraction anyway. Everyone's "turn" happens during the same 6-second round of combat. Sometimes the assassin just isn't fast enough to pull off his one-shot kill. And that's okay. Keep in mind assassination is an extremely powerful ability, so it shouldn't work all the time. Requiring the assassin to invest in initiative-improving feats and features is important for balance.

If the rest of the party really wants to help out, they should use their abilities to boost the assassin's initiative. Enhance Ability (Cat's Grace) will give the assassin advantage on both his stealth roll and his initiative roll, for example. Bardic Inspiration adds a d6-d12 to the initiative roll. A divination wizard can use his Portent to replace the Assassin's initiative (or an enemy's initiative, if it's a low portent). If your party is lacking a caster with these abilities, any of them can use the "help" action right before combat to give the assassin advantage. How they want to describe the help action is up to them, or maybe they don't describe it at all, and you've got a gamey kind of table (the delay shenanigans would support this) but that's okay too, there's no wrong fun.

And of course the assassin himself can mitigate this by optimizing. The Alert feat goes a long way towards always winning initiative, and the Lucky feat is great for this as well.

[Tanarii]

If the rogue wants to attempt to sneak as a separate group, you as the DM will have to rule on:
Q1) how far apart the rogue has to be from the group to count as a separate group
Q2) how the other PCs enter initiative.

Edit: PCs skipping their turn doesn't make a difference. The rules aren't that enemies are unaware of their attackers until the first one attacks. The rules are that a successful ambush makes the enemies surprised.

[sithlordnergal]

And this is why I do away with 5e's surprise rules entirely. Because, logically, if the entire Party Readies an Action to go off after the Rogue makes their attack, then the targets should still be surprised. Nothing has happened to give them cause to be any more alert then they were before, nothing was seen. The only difference is now they're in initiative...which they technically should not even know about. But no, if the Rogue goes last then the targets are no longer surprised, even if literally nothing happened to them. Its basically saying "Hey, that goblin with 10 passive perception senses you're there...even if you rolled a 20+ stealth and could not be noticed by it even if it rolled a nat 20". It makes no sense at all.

Personally, I would remove the Surprise condition, and instead use a Surprise Round. It makes things so much easier, and allows for things like this to occur without breaking immersion. Have those setting the ambush roll a group stealth check, the targets roll perception, and whoever rolls above the check is not surprised while those who failed are surprised. And since it is no longer a condition, you no longer have to worry about losing things like Assassinate because of a flubbed roll.

It literally changes nothing in a negative way. Hell, Alert can be easily re-written to be "You always act normally during surprise rounds".

[JackPhoenix]

And this is why I do away with 5e's surprise rules entirely. Because, logically, if the entire Party Readies an Action to go off after the Rogue makes their attack, then the targets should still be surprised. Nothing has happened to give them cause to be any more alert then they were before, nothing was seen. The only difference is now they're in initiative...which they technically should not even know about. But no, if the Rogue goes last then the targets are no longer surprised, even if literally nothing happened to them. Its basically saying "Hey, that goblin with 10 passive perception senses you're there...even if you rolled a 20+ stealth and could not be noticed by it even if it rolled a nat 20". It makes no sense at all.

It's "that goblin with 10 passive perception doesn't really need it, as you've revealed yourself when you started attacking, and your Dex (stealth) check result is no longer relevant".

You don't roll initiative when you're just standing there and staring at the (unaware or not) enemies, waiting for someone to do something. You roll initiative when the hostilities start, and the initiative score decides in what order will the respective actions be resolved. The rogue may very well start making the first move, but if his initiative is too low, he's too slow and others get to react before he can finish it. The enemy will be able to notice the threat and defend themselves in time, even if they may be unable to react fast enough to counterattack.

Ever seen a western showdown with two duelists in a movie? If it was D&D game, initiative would be rolled when the bad guy goes for his gun, but the hero would (usually) get higher roll and draw and shoot faster. It would not be rolled a minute early when they're just staring at each other and walking into position in the middle of the main street.

Initiative is an abstraction that make narratively concurrent actions playable in turn-based system.

[Segev]

Initiative isn't, despite the mechanical implementation, a polite line of people waiting to take their turn. Everybody acts at once. If the rogue is the one "Triggering" the combat, he still takes time to go from "hidden and unnoticed" to "murderizing a guy." Initiative literally represents everyone else's ability to react in the time it takes from the moment action begins. The assassin acting on low initiative doesn't mean he stayed hidden until then, technically; it means he started acting, and others reacted faster. Those "others" might be enemies.

The surprised condition means that, even if they beat the ambushers in initiative, the surprised enemies spend their whole turn simply orienting themselves to the fact that they're in combat. They do cease to be surprised after their turn, but they still aren't acting before anybody else.

If the Assassin Rogue gets ot use his Assassination ability, that represents shanking somebody who literally didn't know he was in any danger until the knife was already through his spleen (or other vital organ of the Assassin's choosing). Or, rather, that it would have been there if he'd not had enough hp to avoid it (described however you like). If the Assassin goes too slowly in the initiative order, that means his target managed to become aware of the danger before the Assassin could land the blow, and thus was able to engage in whatever level of defense his AC normally represents, and lose only the amount of hit points needed to keep a non-crit from being fatal.

So it does make sense. It's exactly the "can you twitch faster than he can?" check.

[Rukelnikov]

So I have a player who is an assassination rogue and there is some confusion regarding it and low initiative rolls.

Scenario one
The rogue and a couple of allies all successfully sneak up on a group of enemies, they declare they want to attack them. Cool, initiative is rolled and the rogue lands last or at least lower then any enemy she can reach. The party attacks yada yada, and when the rogues turn comes up she is denied her crit bonus because by raw once you had your surprised turn you are no longer counted as being surprised.

This is all well and good, easy to understand although the rogue is naturally bummed out as their subclass bonus is totally negated by such a technicality.

Which brings me to..

Scenario two
Instead of attacking, the party holds their attacks to let the rogue attack first. She would still be after in the initiative order but since the others didn't reveal themselves yet, logically the enemies should still be surprised when the rogue attacks right? Even though technically they had their first turn and did essentially nothing as they had no clue they were about to be attacked, it's messy and confusing.

The latter strategy would also mean that the rest of the party essentially wastes their actions, even if they have ranged ready actions they generally won't be as good as a real action but that's another issue.

Unless I'm missing something I'm leaning towards simply home brewing surprise to just be universal status on the first round if you start with it or would that break the game in a way I'm not seeing?

You are pretty much on spot, initiative/surprise rules in 5e make no narrative sense at all, and the mechanics are not very hot either.

Scenario one: If the party acted before the assassin and revealed themselves, and then the assassin acts after all the enemies, well yeah, he lost the element of surprise sry for him, I don't hold that against the rules.

Scenario two: There's no Delay action in 5e, so assuming the rest of the party didn't reveal themselves during their turns, logically the Assassin should get to use her assassination feature, since enemies should be clueless, the system however makes it so, enemies are aware of combat even if they don't know against who or what, doesn't make much sense.


It's "that goblin with 10 passive perception doesn't really need it, as you've revealed yourself when you started attacking, and your Dex (stealth) check result is no longer relevant".


Initiative isn't, despite the mechanical implementation, a polite line of people waiting to take their turn. Everybody acts at once. If the rogue is the one "Triggering" the combat, he still takes time to go from "hidden and unnoticed" to "murderizing a guy." Initiative literally represents everyone else's ability to react in the time it takes from the moment action begins. The assassin acting on low initiative doesn't mean he stayed hidden until then, technically; it means he started acting, and others reacted faster. Those "others" might be enemies.

If this was the case, then the enemies should be able to target the assassin, right? However that's not the case, he's still hidden.


And this is why I do away with 5e's surprise rules entirely. Because, logically, if the entire Party Readies an Action to go off after the Rogue makes their attack, then the targets should still be surprised. Nothing has happened to give them cause to be any more alert then they were before, nothing was seen. The only difference is now they're in initiative...which they technically should not even know about. But no, if the Rogue goes last then the targets are no longer surprised, even if literally nothing happened to them. Its basically saying "Hey, that goblin with 10 passive perception senses you're there...even if you rolled a 20+ stealth and could not be noticed by it even if it rolled a nat 20". It makes no sense at all.

Personally, I would remove the Surprise condition, and instead use a Surprise Round. It makes things so much easier, and allows for things like this to occur without breaking immersion. Have those setting the ambush roll a group stealth check, the targets roll perception, and whoever rolls above the check is not surprised while those who failed are surprised. And since it is no longer a condition, you no longer have to worry about losing things like Assassinate because of a flubbed roll.

It literally changes nothing in a negative way. Hell, Alert can be easily re-written to be "You always act normally during surprise rounds".

We do something similar, if the enemy is completely unaware, they remain so until they get a reason to notice something is up, a spell is cast, an attack is made, a character shows herself, or fails a Stealth check, etc.

[Segev]

If this was the case, then the enemies should be able to target the assassin, right? However that's not the case, he's still hidden.

They're surprised on their turn. They can't target anything.

And again, initiative represents twitch-speeds, despite the mechanics making it a polite queue of neat actions with each ending before the next begins.

With no surprise, the hot-headed swashbuckler shouts, "HAVE AT YOU!" and leaps to attack the insulting noble ponce. Everyone rolls initiative. If the ponce rolls higher, he can run to cover behind his men before the swashbuckler closes to stab him. If his men roll higher, they can close ranks and block the swashbuckler's advance. None of this means the swashbuckler says, "HAVE AT YOU!" and then stands there waiting for the ponce to calmly walk 30 feet away, or the guards to individually move into position and cross their spears.

The swashbuckler is leaping forward, and the guards scramble to get in his way while the ponce yelps and scampers backwards, trying to flee. Initiative determines if the swashbuckler is faster than the ponce and his guards, and thus closes that distance faster than the ponce opens it up or the guards get in the way. They're all moving at once; initiative just determines whether the swashbuckler is moving fast enough compared to everyone else to get his way.

The assassin leaping out from hiding to attack is happening as the potential victims are becoming aware there is danger. If their initiative happens before his, they're still not able to attack, but they CAN whirl to their own defense.

Now, there is a point where this creates an odd situation: a lone assassin wants to take down one or more targets in a group. His hide check exceeds their passive Perception. He declares he's making his attack, and everybody rolls initiative, and he comes up crap while they come up awesome. Each of his potential victims cease to be Surprised before he commits to his attack, because his turn isn't up yet. He chooses not to attack. So now, the party of potential victims is alerted to danger, and is aware...of something. But they don't see anything. They might spend actions rolling Perception to see if they can find something their passives failed to.

What happened in the fiction itself, though? The assassin obviously didn't actually leap out; he is still hidden. He didn't bother hiding again; he already was hidden. Yet, the party of potential victims is on the alert, knowing there's something. If they were PCs, their players know the DM said, "Roll initiative!" and is asking them about their actions. "Something" is proverbially "up."

The answer here is that obviously, the assassin did something to give away his presence, but not his location. He stepped on a twig, to borrow a cliche, or his sword made some sort of audibly sharp noise, or animals went quiet, or he startled a rodent, or...something. Nothing that even tells the potential victims for sure there's a threat, but something which triggers their alertness.

...now I wonder if there are rules for re-establishing surprise. I suspect they're just, "don't do anything until combat ends, then try again."

[CorporateSlave]

You are pretty much on spot, initiative/surprise rules in 5e make no narrative sense at all, and the mechanics are not very hot either.

Scenario one: If the party acted before the assassin and revealed themselves, and then the assassin acts after all the enemies, well yeah, he lost the element of surprise sry for him, I don't hold that against the rules.

Scenario two: There's no Delay action in 5e, so assuming the rest of the party didn't reveal themselves during their turns, logically the Assassin should get to use her assassination feature, since enemies should be clueless, the system however makes it so, enemies are aware of combat even if they don't know against who or what, doesn't make much sense.


Have to agree with Segev on this one - the Surprise rules only "don't make narrative sense" because of our Meta perceptions of how Initiative works (a clearly ordered and consistent numerical list)...which ought to be obvious is not the way it works narratively speaking.

In Scenario two, presumably the party is using the Ready Action (since as you say there is no Delay action in 5e), but even the Ready Action isn't "nothing." Even if all a party member does is "tense up" without taking a step or drawing a weapon, narratively this makes some small indication that something is happening (maybe his leathers creak softly, for example), and it alerts the enemies to danger. They may not have a viable creature to target because no player has actively revealed themselves (and cannot act this round anyway due to Surprise), but the enemies' guard is now up. If the Assassin is making their attack (presuming the party had already pre-agreed to not move until they saw the Assassin strike), narratively you could also say something the Assassin did gave his ambush away a split second early, causing the victim to no longer be taken completely by surprise.

Suppose the Assassin notes the enemies freeze and look around - and as a result the party does nothing to actually reveal themselves. Eventually if the enemies fail any active Perception checks they may decide it was "just a cat" or whatever, and go about their business, dropping Initiative.

But think about it from the other side. The Party is trekking through the woods at night. Suddenly the DM (having determined the Party has failed their collective Passive Perception against enemy Stealth checks) says "Roll for Initiative!" and declares the Party is Surprised. However, the Party aces their Initiative rolls, and the enemies' BBG Assassins pooch theirs. The enemies decide to wait for their BBG Assassins to go, and Surprise fades from the Party members as the DM narrates that they just "got a weird feeling" or "the crickets stopped chirping suddenly." When the bottom of the Initiative order is reached and the BBG Assassins spring into action, all you players are going to be pretty upset if the DM allows the Assassin ability to trigger. The enemies still get the drop on you - any and all of them get to act before the Surprise PC's can. But due to their low Initiative rolls, they have failed to catch the Party completely flat footed and off guard.

[sithlordnergal]

It's "that goblin with 10 passive perception doesn't really need it, as you've revealed yourself when you started attacking, and your Dex (stealth) check result is no longer relevant".

You don't roll initiative when you're just standing there and staring at the (unaware or not) enemies, waiting for someone to do something. You roll initiative when the hostilities start, and the initiative score decides in what order will the respective actions be resolved. The rogue may very well start making the first move, but if his initiative is too low, he's too slow and others get to react before he can finish it. The enemy will be able to notice the threat and defend themselves in time, even if they may be unable to react fast enough to counterattack.

Ever seen a western showdown with two duelists in a movie? If it was D&D game, initiative would be rolled when the bad guy goes for his gun, but the hero would (usually) get higher roll and draw and shoot faster. It would not be rolled a minute early when they're just staring at each other and walking into position in the middle of the main street.

Initiative is an abstraction that make narratively concurrent actions playable in turn-based system.

But here's the thing, even if the party does nothing to break stealth, that Goblin is suddenly on the alert...for no reason. Its less of a Western Showdown situation, and more "everyone is hiding, no-one has moved, attacked or anything...but suddenly the Goblin is alert for no reason." No spells have been cast, no attacks have been made, no movement or need to re-roll stealth. The only thing that's happened is that the players have declared they want to ambush the goblin.

What makes it worse is that in this situation you could actually sneak by the Goblin and you'd never alert them to anything. You could easily slip by and the Goblin would never know, but because the party wants to ambush the Goblin, the Goblin suddenly knows that they're there and can lose the Surprise condition to nothing.

[sithlordnergal]

Have to agree with Segev on this one - the Surprise rules only "don't make narrative sense" because of our Meta perceptions of how Initiative works (a clearly ordered and consistent numerical list)...which ought to be obvious is not the way it works narratively speaking.

In Scenario two, presumably the party is using the Ready Action (since as you say there is no Delay action in 5e), but even the Ready Action isn't "nothing." Even if all a party member does is "tense up" without taking a step or drawing a weapon, narratively this makes some small indication that something is happening (maybe his leathers creak softly, for example), and it alerts the enemies to danger. They may not have a viable creature to target because no player has actively revealed themselves (and cannot act this round anyway due to Surprise), but the enemies' guard is now up. If the Assassin is making their attack (presuming the party had already pre-agreed to not move until they saw the Assassin strike), narratively you could also say something the Assassin did gave his ambush away a split second early, causing the victim to no longer be taken completely by surprise.

Suppose the Assassin notes the enemies freeze and look around - and as a result the party does nothing to actually reveal themselves. Eventually if the enemies fail any active Perception checks they may decide it was "just a cat" or whatever, and go about their business, dropping Initiative.

But think about it from the other side. The Party is trekking through the woods at night. Suddenly the DM (having determined the Party has failed their collective Passive Perception against enemy Stealth checks) says "Roll for Initiative!" and declares the Party is Surprised. However, the Party aces their Initiative rolls, and the enemies' BBG Assassins pooch theirs. The enemies decide to wait for their BBG Assassins to go, and Surprise fades from the Party members as the DM narrates that they just "got a weird feeling" or "the crickets stopped chirping suddenly." When the bottom of the Initiative order is reached and the BBG Assassins spring into action, all you players are going to be pretty upset if the DM allows the Assassin ability to trigger. The enemies still get the drop on you - any and all of them get to act before the Surprise PC's can. But due to their low Initiative rolls, they have failed to catch the Party completely flat footed and off guard.

I run with Surprise rounds, players don't tend to have an issue it. Sure, it means they can be caught in a surprise even if you have a high initiative, but they also know its a two way street. Same with Feats, I give me NPCs different feats, and my players have to keep an eye out for that. The Rogue has discovered that certain guards have Sentinel, a few casters have War Caster, ect. However, you have to be up front and tell the players beforehand, then they won't be mad because it won't catch them off guard.

In my eyes, there are already way too many ways to get rid around Surprise, with things like Alert or Perception checks. I see no reason to nerf Surprise even more by making it dependent on an initiative roll. And honestly, I haven't heard any players complain about it, they like the surprise round.

[Segev]

But here's the thing, even if the party does nothing to break stealth, that Goblin is suddenly on the alert...for no reason. Its less of a Western Showdown situation, and more "everyone is hiding, no-one has moved, attacked or anything...but suddenly the Goblin is alert for no reason." No spells have been cast, no attacks have been made, no movement or need to re-roll stealth. The only thing that's happened is that the players have declared they want to ambush the goblin.

What makes it worse is that in this situation you could actually sneak by the Goblin and you'd never alert them to anything. You could easily slip by and the Goblin would never know, but because the party wants to ambush the Goblin, the Goblin suddenly knows that they're there and can lose the Surprise condition to nothing.

Like I said, something alerts the Goblin. It may not give away the party positions. It may not even tell him WHAT alerted him. But he was alerted, and got his guard up before anybody on the assassin's side could capitalize on their surprise, beyond acting before the goblin would get to. If the party chooses to just keep sneaking by, the goblin does think, eventually, that he got all wiggy over nothing. Or, at least, that whatever it was decided to move on because he was so alert (which is, in fact, correct in this case). If the party didn't sneak by, but stayed hidden until the Goblin let down his guard again (combat over), it's a classic "it's just a cat" horror scenario where, upon relaxing, the monster (or, in this case, the assassin) gets him. (Well, initiative is rolled again, and ideally for the assassin the goblin rolls less well than the assassin does this time.)

You can narrate it as "they keep feeling like they're being watched," or you can come up with something more specific. In the context of D&D, the awareness of attention, the notion of "killing intent," or other such things can be real, or you can lean back on where these ideas all come from IRL: we have a lot of sensory input that our brains process into pattern recognition, often on levels we aren't directly conscious of. So we "get feelings" that seem almost "psychic" or the like, when in reality we've noticed one or more things subconsciously despite not having any one of them rise to the level of drawing individual conscious attention. But our brains have noticed a pattern that reminds of other dangerous situations and come to conclusions about what that pattern is, so we know "something" without knowing HOW we know.

[bid]

The latter strategy would also mean that the rest of the party essentially wastes their actions, even if they have ranged ready actions they generally won't be as good as a real action but that's another issue.
That's why you don't bother with scenario 2, since scenario 1 does more damage.

And scenario 1 should rarely occur. A competent assassin with a 4-point Dex advantage wil land his autocrit 75% of the time. Alert is almost an overkill.

[Bjarkmundur]

Wait, are rounds in combat a limited resource, and you lose one if you ambush a creature?
Wait, combat starts before the surprise round is resolved?

I thought it was

Hey, I think we should hide so that when the patrol passes we can jump them!"
*rogue jumps out, surprises the patrol, they can't retaliate*
*player 2 jumps out, surprises the patrol, they can't retaliate*
*players 3-4 jump out, surprises the patrol, they can't retaliate*
*The patrol takes a bunch of hits, and finally realize they are being ambushed*
*surprise round is resolved*
*everyone rolls initiative*

[Nagog]

"delay isn't a thing in 5e anyway"

I believe the OP was referring to "Holding an Action".

As for the above issue, I don't think the issue is how far down the initiative order the Assassin is, I think it's instead the timing of when everybody rolls initiative. I typically have Initiative rolled when the first strike has been struck, or when the hostile parties are aware of each other and both intend to do battle. The prior is what the Assassin would capitalize on, being the instigator of combat and therefore having the first strike. If the combat plays out with the latter, neither side is surprised and the auto-crit is wasted.

[CorporateSlave]

In my eyes, there are already way too many ways to get rid around Surprise, with things like Alert or Perception checks. I see no reason to nerf Surprise even more by making it dependent on an initiative roll. And honestly, I haven't heard any players complain about it, they like the surprise round.

Surprise is still a potentially pretty crippling condition even if the Surprised win Initiative - they still can't do anything that first round! Sure, they are able to use a Reaction if the situation arises, but the attackers still get to go before the Surprised can take an Action, so they land the first blow anyway.

Players probably like the surprise round because its relatively easy for them to make sure it happens in their favor far more often that they get "two way streeted" by it.


...the Goblin suddenly knows that they're there and can lose the Surprise condition to nothing.

This only sounds bad because you're equating the loss of Surprise with the Goblin somehow knowing they're there even though they haven't moved. The Goblin doesn't know who/where/or if there is anyone there, he just suddenly gets a feeling something is up and raises his guard. He doesn't specifically know he is under attack or from where, but he senses danger and is on the alert, as others here have pointed out.

Perhaps it would help to use an action movie trope to illustrate this. Losing Initiative to the kung-fu master who the enemy have somehow successfully snuck up on means that while he is not able to attack them (Attack Action), he will be able to catch the arrow, or deflect the blow/dodge the sword (Reaction) when it comes. Situations like this come up often enough in films and TV narratives to be pretty understandable. If the kung-fu master had both won Initiative and was not Surprised, he could stab/punch/ whatever through the wall or into the bushes and take out his enemy before they could attack him. Also happens fairly often in the movies. To say such a narrative trope makes no narrative sense doesn't make much sense!

I get that losing use of an ability due to a poor initiative roll is frustrating, and if your table likes the surprise round then go for it! But I would find it most unfair if my Monk wins Initiative yet cannot use his Deflect Missiles Reaction when eventually fired upon as per the RAW ought to allow. I guess that just makes an Alert Feat Tax to make sure you simply cannot be Surprised at all (or would a surprise round still apply to a PC even with Alert?)

[CorporateSlave]

Wait, are rounds in combat a limited resource, and you lose one if you ambush a creature?
Wait, combat starts before the surprise round is resolved?

I thought it was

Hey, I think we should hide so that when the patrol passes we can jump them!"
*rogue jumps out, surprises the patrol, they can't retaliate*
*player 2 jumps out, surprises the patrol, they can't retaliate*
*players 3-4 jump out, surprises the patrol, they can't retaliate*
*The patrol takes a bunch of hits, and finally realize they are being ambushed*
*surprise round is resolved*
*everyone rolls initiative*

Indeed, there is no longer a "surprise round" in 5e. Instead there is a Surprised Condition that is applied for the first Round to anyone who is Surprised.

Your example could play out a bit differently depending on where in the Initiative order everyone lands on Round 1, but no matter how low the Party scores or how high the Patrol rolls, due to the Surprised Condition the Patrol cannot take Actions their first Turn, so the ambushing Party will get a round of Attacks in before they can be counterattacked.
Anyone in the Party who beat the Patrol on Initiative will be able to have TWO Turns before the Patrol can act, although the Patrol may be able to take a Reaction on the SECOND Turn if one is applicable.
Anyone in the Party who loses to the Patrol on Initiative will get to take ONE Turn before the Patrol can act, although the Patrol may be able to take a Reaction if one is applicable.

[Jakinbandw]

This only sounds bad because you're equating the loss of Surprise with the Goblin somehow knowing they're there even though they haven't moved. The Goblin doesn't know who/where/or if there is anyone there, he just suddenly gets a feeling something is up and raises his guard. He doesn't specifically know he is under attack or from where, but he senses danger and is on the alert, as others here have pointed out.

Could the players just decide not to attack and wait till 'combat' ends and try rolling initiative again? If the goblin doesn't know where the players are, if the players exist, or anything like that, then surely they could remain hidden and try again right?

[CorporateSlave]

Could the players just decide not to attack and wait till 'combat' ends and try rolling initiative again? If the goblin doesn't know where the players are, if the players exist, or anything like that, then surely they could remain hidden and try again right?

Presumably yes...as has been mentioned this would be the "oh its just a cat" trope in action. However, it is a rather meta-gamey tactic unless the Party had agreed beforehand that if the enemy showed any sign of suspicion they would all hold off attacking and wait for it to go back about its business.

There is also the risk that the Goblin might keep its guard up and leave the area without dropping guard (say, Dash away for its Action until it is out of sight). Or call out to his buddies. It would just depend on how the DM wants to run it I guess.

[Snails]

So I have a player who is an assassination rogue and there is some confusion regarding it and low initiative rolls.

Scenario one
The rogue and a couple of allies all successfully sneak up on a group of enemies, they declare they want to attack them. Cool, initiative is rolled and the rogue lands last or at least lower then any enemy she can reach. The party attacks yada yada, and when the rogues turn comes up she is denied her crit bonus because by raw once you had your surprised turn you are no longer counted as being surprised.

I am finding this confusing. What if I am a lone Assassin with an awesome Stealth who sneaks up on the intended victim from behind who is literally sitting on a stump twiddling his thumbs and enjoying the birds singing. Heck, let's say my Assassin is actually Invisible on top of his awesome Stealth result.

By your reasoning, if I understand it correctly, when the Assassin attacks, we must roll initiative, and if the victim rolls high it is not possible to get the free critical.

Oh, I suppose we can say the victim is looking in my direction so I have to wait. So I wait six seconds and do not engage. Combat ends?

So I try again and keep trying until my roll is good?

If the party accompanying is behind me a bit and out of sight, literally waiting for me to initiate combat, why are the mechanics any different?

[Trickery]

The way you're ruling it is fine. Assassination isn't so incredibly powerful (on a pure rogue) that the player should struggle to use it. If you want to avoid weirdness, just put in a house rule that says: regardless of initiative, the rogue will always act before surprised enemies on the first turn of combat. That's not a huge buff and it fixes the problem.

[CorporateSlave]

The way you're ruling it is fine. Assassination isn't so incredibly powerful (on a pure rogue) that the player should struggle to use it. If you want to avoid weirdness, just put in a house rule that says: regardless of initiative, the rogue will always act before surprised enemies on the first turn of combat. That's not a huge buff and it fixes the problem.

The problem they have is losing the "free crit' due to loss of the Surprised Condition. The Rogue ... and everyone/anyone else attacking will always act before the Surprised enemies - because the Surprised Condition prevents them acting in the first round, regardless of where Initiative lands.

White room hypothetical cases to try and make a reason why the "mechanics make no sense" is just an attempt to narratively defeat a game mechanic when it brings a (probably rare) result you don't like.


I am finding this confusing. What if I am a lone Assassin with an awesome Stealth who sneaks up on the intended victim from behind who is literally sitting on a stump twiddling his thumbs and enjoying the birds singing. Heck, let's say my Assassin is actually Invisible on top of his awesome Stealth result.

By your reasoning, if I understand it correctly, when the Assassin attacks, we must roll initiative, and if the victim rolls high it is not possible to get the free critical.

Yes, exactly. Your Assassin will still get to Attack first. But the low Initiative roll "simulates" something that the Assassin did that gave him away just a split second before the blow landed, raising the hackles on the victim's neck and negating the auto-crit. You'll still get the Attack first, and the Sneak Attack due to being unseen at the time of the attack. Just not the auto-crit.
Of course, the DM could say that due to the great Stealth and Invisibility, and the obliviousness of the victim, your Assassin gets Advantage on Initiative and the victim gets Disadvantage, making the chances for your Initiative focused PC winning Initiative much, much better, if still not guaranteed.


Oh, I suppose we can say the victim is looking in my direction so I have to wait. So I wait six seconds and do not engage. Combat ends?

Does Combat end? That's up to the DM. If the victim is on the alert now, he may not go back to twiddling his thumbs in six seconds. Or even a minute. Or he may warily get up and run away. Or for that matter, the DM may not even grant the option. As DM, I would probably not allow the Assassin to "not attack and wait" in this situation. His attack is what caused the Initiative roll. A good roll would have been a flawless Attack, with the first indication the victim had of danger being the dagger in his back. A bad roll would indicate that the Assassin was having a bad day, and as he leaped forward he stepped on a leaf or somehow alerted the victim. Not enough that the victim could draw a weapon and Attack before the Assassin's blow landed, but just enough that they might have shifted their body slightly making the Assassin miss his mark and stab lung instead of the heart.

For that matter, as DM, if it was a whole party waiting for the Assassin to attack, using their Ready Actions to wait for the low Initiative Assassin to strike, I probably wouldn't let the Assassin "not Attack" because he realized the target was no longer Surprised. I would rule that the Assassin did a stutter-step or something as they Attacked that slowed them up ju-u-ust a bit as his allies drew their swords or pulled back their bowstrings. The Assassin still Attacks, and his allies then loose their Ready Action Attacks. But the trip up (poor Initiative roll) means the victim is not auto-crit. Note that he will still get massively lit up before he can even draw his sword because he was Surprised.

[Trickery]

The problem they have is losing the "free crit' due to loss of the Surprised Condition. The Rogue ... and everyone/anyone else attacking will always act before the Surprised enemies - because the Surprised Condition prevents them acting in the first round, regardless of where Initiative lands.

White room hypothetical cases to try and make a reason why the "mechanics make no sense" is just an attempt to narratively defeat a game mechanic when it brings a (probably rare) result you don't like.



Yes, exactly. Your Assassin will still get to Attack first. But the low Initiative roll "simulates" something that the Assassin did that gave him away just a split second before the blow landed, raising the hackles on the victim's neck and negating the auto-crit. You'll still get the Attack first, and the Sneak Attack due to being unseen at the time of the attack. Just not the auto-crit.
Of course, the DM could say that due to the great Stealth and Invisibility, and the obliviousness of the victim, your Assassin gets Advantage on Initiative and the victim gets Disadvantage, making the chances for your Initiative focused PC winning Initiative much, much better, if still not guaranteed.

You can justify it however you want to, but I don't agree. When talking about initiative, there is a high chance that the rogue won't win. Even if the rogue wins, he must also have surprise. Either one of those by itself would be a big enough limitation to getting the assassinate bonus. Together, they make the feature too restrictive. The fact that it's the iconic feature of the subclass makes it all the more damning that the rogue usually can't do it.

Players are upset about the feature. There's no defending it. If you think the effect is too powerful to get every time, then the feature should have had a weaker effect that the player always got against surprised opponents - perhaps something more like what Gloomstalker Rangers do. However, the fact is that a single turn of crits from a pure rogue against one target is not such a huge effect that it needs to be so limited.

[Hail Tempus]

The complaints on this thread are fair. But, they’re not complaints about how surprise works in 5e. They’re just showing that the Assassinate class ability is pretty weak. IMO, I would’ve written it so that if the Assassin is able to sneak attack in the first round of combat, it’s an auto critical (and get rid of the advantage)

[Snails]

The problem they have is losing the "free crit' due to loss of the Surprised Condition. The Rogue ... and everyone/anyone else attacking will always act before the Surprised enemies - because the Surprised Condition prevents them acting in the first round, regardless of where Initiative lands.

What is this Surprise Condition of which your speak? One of the reasons these mechanics are confusing is because the designers attempted to simplify this idea away.

Well, they failed, apparently. By your own words.



White room hypothetical cases to try and make a reason why the "mechanics make no sense" is just an attempt to narratively defeat a game mechanic when it brings a (probably rare) result you don't like.

Yes, exactly. Your Assassin will still get to Attack first. But the low Initiative roll "simulates" something that the Assassin did that gave him away just a split second before the blow landed, raising the hackles on the victim's neck and negating the auto-crit. You'll still get the Attack first, and the Sneak Attack due to being unseen at the time of the attack. Just not the auto-crit.


"Simulates" what? You are overtly handwaving into existence the super sensory ability to recognize one is about to be attacked, even in cases where other rules unambiguously tell us that the victim has no such information.

And a stutter step? What?! The Assassin literally has not yet moved!!! That is a Just So story to bandaid over bad mechanics, and a both mechanically and narratively stupid one in this case, as the Assassin probably has superhuman agility.

Yes, if the someone does not like the answer for very good and logical reasons, the DM can just make up weak rationalizations and shove them down everyone's throat. There is always that to fall back on.

[Damon_Tor]

However, the fact is that a single turn of crits from a pure rogue against one target is not such a huge effect that it needs to be so limited.

On a pure rogue? Maybe not. But it would sure free up some design space on my "Reliably Kill the Tarrasque in one turn" build if Assassinate didn't require an initiative win, that's for sure.

[Trickery]

On a pure rogue? Maybe not. But it would sure free up some design space on my "Reliably Kill the Tarrasque in one turn" build if Assassinate didn't require an initiative win, that's for sure.

You can somewhat reliably win initiative by taking the Alert feat. It's just that this is something assassins shouldn't have to do. Either way, this may be the right fix for this specific table.

[Puh Laden]

Technically, I'm pretty sure the rules in the book never actually say that surprise ends at the end of the first turn -- I'm pretty sure that was either sage advice or twitter. In which case, I'd say it's perfectly fair for a DM to decide that if nothing has happened that would cause the surprised "condition" to end at the end of the first turn or even the first round, it doesn't.

[Trickery]

Technically, I'm pretty sure the rules in the book never actually say that surprise ends at the end of the first turn -- I'm pretty sure that was either sage advice or twitter. In which case, I'd say it's perfectly fair for a DM to decide that if nothing has happened that would cause the surprised "condition" to end at the end of the first turn or even the first round, it doesn't.

Or to just say the rogue will crit on his first turn in combat if the enemy was surprised. That would be another way to do it.

[Xetheral]

Under the core mechanic of 5e, checks exist to resolve uncertainty. In the case of an initiative check, the check resolves the uncertainty regarding who acts first. However, in some edge cases, like the one the OP discusses, there may not be any uncertainty because only one character wants to act first (the Assassin's allies want to wait for the Assassin to take the first shot, and the Assassin's enemies don't yet know that any action is required at all). In this situation, there is nothing for an initiative check to resolve, so I suggest skipping the initiative roll and putting the Assassin first in the initiative order. Then, everyone else can roll initiative to determine the order after the Assassin.

This interpretation/house rule makes surprise (and the Assassin subclass) more powerful than the more typical interpretation, but otherwise it solves the OP's problem.


That's why you don't bother with scenario 2, since scenario 1 does more damage.

And scenario 1 should rarely occur. A competent assassin with a 4-point Dex advantage wil land his autocrit 75% of the time. Alert is almost an overkill.

How are you calculating the 75%? I think it should be 70%: the base chance for one 1d20 roll to be equal to or greater than another is 210/400. Adding +1 adds 19/400, adding another +1 (+2 total) adds 18/400, etc. So +4 should be (210+19+18+17+16)/400=280/400=70%.

[Tanarii]

If this was the case, then the enemies should be able to target the assassin, right? However that's not the case, he's still hidden.
Why is he still hidden again? That's an assumption on your part.

And yeah, a surprised enemy can target their enemies if they somehow have the ability to act when surprised, something like the Barbarians special class feature. Unless the DM decides to rule that the ambushers didn't reveal themselves when launching the ambush.


The complaints on this thread are fair. But, they’re not complaints about how surprise works in 5e. They’re just showing that the Assassinate class ability is pretty weak. Its certainly nowhere near as powerful as many people seem to think it is, given how difficult Surprise can be to achieve, without some exceptional efforts or resource expenditure.

[Snails]

Why is he still hidden again? That's an assumption on your part.

No. Until someone can point to an actual reason to believe otherwise, it is not an assumption at all; rather it is the only logically tenable position.

[bid]

How are you calculating the 75%? I think it should be 70%: the base chance for one 1d20 roll to be equal to or greater than another is 210/400. Adding +1 adds 19/400, adding another +1 (+2 total) adds 18/400, etc. So +4 should be (210+19+18+17+16)/400=280/400=70%.
Close enough.
Closer to 2/3 than 3/4, but yeah.

I'd rather use 264:16:120 and ignore the tie since the DM decides for those.

[Tawmis]

No, having the rest of the party "delay" isn't a solution because (1) delay isn't a thing in 5e anyway


Wait - couldn't the party "Ready an Action" - the ready action allows you to react to a specific, "perceivable circumstance."

Wouldn't the "perceivable circumstance" be the Rogue's assassination attempt?

So they'd all be ready to react after the Rogue's attack, no?

[Snails]

Wait - couldn't the party "Ready an Action" - the ready action allows you to react to a specific, "perceivable circumstance."

Wouldn't the "perceivable circumstance" be the Rogue's assassination attempt?

So they'd all be ready to react after the Rogue's attack, no?

After some thinking, I think you are getting towards the heart of the real issue here.

The basic rules are written with the assumption that, at some point, the party says to the DM: "We all attack now!" The usual interpretation makes adequate sense here -- the Assassin could roll badly on initiative and not get an Assassination attempt because bad luck is bad luck. That is fine.

If there is an Assassin in the party, however the assumption is not really a good one anymore. It is not a corner case that the player will want to explore tactics to get the drop, it is not a corner case that the party will try to help this by waiting ready to jump in until after the Assassin does his thing.

As Xetheral correctly points out, assuming no rush on the part of the Assassin, if he is only one character who wants to act, he has to win initiative. The alternative is instant nonsense, with the DM forced to make up mumbo jumbo about how the NPCs have godlike insight that their lives may be in danger for no reason whatsoever discernible within the rules.

Now to the real question: Does the rest of the party pay any tactical cost for waiting for the Assassin to act first? The rules do not really cover this.

Allowing a "Ready An Action" makes perfect sense under the rules. Note that there is a cost here: (1) the PC loses movement (he is standing still until the Assassin goes), (2) the Reaction is spent so no opportunity attack.

[montywoodpeg]

My interpretation for how a poor initiative roll to lag behind surprise can be justified is based on the simultaneous actions being abstracted into asynchronous turns.

A round consists of all combatants taking their turns within the same 6 seconds. Thinking about the turn happening simultaneously as a narrative could help to understand my reasoning and how that ties into the mechanics.

Example 1, melee assassin rogue:
The rogue, while hidden declares they wish to attack. Roll initiative, but lower than their opponent. The rogue doesn't know this, they've just left cover to make their attack and are not necessarily hidden. The opponent is surprised, and doesn't react in time to perform an action or movement, but reacted quickly enough to the rogue charging toward them (because this happens simultaneously with the rogue's upcoming turn) to no longer be surprised and perhaps changed their body position to face their opponent, or readied themselves somewhat for an assault.

Example 2, ranged assassin rogue:
The rogue, while hidden declares they wish to attack. Roll initiative, but lower than their opponent. The rogue leans out from cover to fire their bow, but perhaps their exact timing wasn't quite right and they've now alerted their opponent, consciously or unconsciously, to their presence. Perhaps the opponent hasn't specifically seen them, but caught movement out of the corner of their eye, heard the creak or leather or the cloth brush against the wall/tree? They rolled better in initiative, so they've reacted to this information to sense a threat or enough suspicion that they may have started to turn around or move - leading assassin's shot to be imperfectly placed to deal maximum damage on their unsuspecting victim.

I didn't see this perspective (justification?) posted here yet, so I thought I'd chip in my 2c.

[Trickery]

My interpretation for how a poor initiative roll to lag behind surprise can be justified is based on the simultaneous actions being abstracted into asynchronous turns.

A round consists of all combatants taking their turns within the same 6 seconds. Thinking about the turn happening simultaneously as a narrative could help to understand my reasoning and how that ties into the mechanics.

Example 1, melee assassin rogue:
The rogue, while hidden declares they wish to attack. Roll initiative, but lower than their opponent. The rogue doesn't know this, they've just left cover to make their attack and are not necessarily hidden. The opponent is surprised, and doesn't react in time to perform an action or movement, but reacted quickly enough to the rogue charging toward them (because this happens simultaneously with the rogue's upcoming turn) to no longer be surprised and perhaps changed their body position to face their opponent, or readied themselves somewhat for an assault.

Example 2, ranged assassin rogue:
The rogue, while hidden declares they wish to attack. Roll initiative, but lower than their opponent. The rogue leans out from cover to fire their bow, but perhaps their exact timing wasn't quite right and they've now alerted their opponent, consciously or unconsciously, to their presence. Perhaps the opponent hasn't specifically seen them, but caught movement out of the corner of their eye, heard the creak or leather or the cloth brush against the wall/tree? They rolled better in initiative, so they've reacted to this information to sense a threat or enough suspicion that they may have started to turn around or move - leading assassin's shot to be imperfectly placed to deal maximum damage on their unsuspecting victim.

I didn't see this perspective (justification?) posted here yet, so I thought I'd chip in my 2c.

Those scenarios sound more like a target who is not surprised. The fact that the party or rogue is able to get surprise should mean that this sort of thing does not happen. After all, the most common way to get surprise is by being hidden.

Let's consider a scenario. The entire party is hidden and rolls initiative. The rogue is last in initiative order, so the rest of the party decide not to hold actions, but simply to do nothing. Doing nothing is a valid option.

Now, on the enemies' turn, no one has done anything. They're all still hidden, by the rules, as is the rogue. If they are going to somehow no longer be surprised at the end of this turn, then why is that? Because the rules say so, and now we have to justify it in our heads? That's a bad reason.

Again, by the rules, the full party is still hidden by the time the Rogue's turn comes around. So the Rogue can act and become no longer hidden, or the Rogue can also decide to do nothing. Then what? Does the DM rule that the monsters somehow become aware of the party who is still hidden? Or does the DM rule that the Rogue can strike unaware targets from a hidden position without surprising them, somehow...

It makes no sense when you think about it.

[Segev]

Those scenarios sound more like a target who is not surprised. The fact that the party or rogue is able to get surprise should mean that this sort of thing does not happen. After all, the most common way to get surprise is by being hidden.

Let's consider a scenario. The entire party is hidden and rolls initiative. The rogue is last in initiative order, so the rest of the party decide not to hold actions, but simply to do nothing. Doing nothing is a valid option.

Now, on the enemies' turn, no one has done anything. They're all still hidden, by the rules, as is the rogue. If they are going to somehow no longer be surprised at the end of this turn, then why is that? Because the rules say so, and now we have to justify it in our heads? That's a bad reason.

Again, by the rules, the full party is still hidden by the time the Rogue's turn comes around. So the Rogue can act and become no longer hidden, or the Rogue can also decide to do nothing. Then what? Does the DM rule that the monsters somehow become aware of the party who is still hidden? Or does the DM rule that the Rogue can strike unaware targets from a hidden position without surprising them, somehow...

It makes no sense when you think about it.

I feel like posts like this have completely ignored multiple posts I've made. I say this because I have addressed exactly this, and this doesn't rebut what I've said so much as ignore it and pretend it never was said.

In the above scenario, if the party does nothing on the first round of combat, and everyone who was Surprised no longer is Surprised, the next round, the formerly-Surprised other side of the conflict still doesn't know what it was that made them wary. They don't see the hidden party. Maybe they attempt Wisdom(Perception) checks in hopes to exceed their passive score. If they fail those against the hidden party's Dexterity(Stealth), they still don't know what's out there.

But the fact of initiative being rolled means they sensed something. A sound of a blade being drawn. A twig stepped on. Nearby animals going silent. A creak of leather armor. More esoterically, a spiking of killing intent. A sudden sense of somebody walking over their grave. The feeling of eyes on them.

We see this in movies and such all the time. If they continue to fail to notice the hidden party, it becomes, "Oh, it was just a cat," and the combat ends.

It makes perfectly reasonable sense. It only fails to make sense if you insist on treating the neatly-ordered action sequence of an initiative round as if it were literally what was happening in the narrative. So people stand around doing nothing until it's their turn, then they move and attack or whatever while everyone else waits politely for them, and then they stand around while others after them take their turns.

[Trickery]

I feel like posts like this have completely ignored multiple posts I've made. I say this because I have addressed exactly this, and this doesn't rebut what I've said so much as ignore it and pretend it never was said.

In the above scenario, if the party does nothing on the first round of combat, and everyone who was Surprised no longer is Surprised, the next round, the formerly-Surprised other side of the conflict still doesn't know what it was that made them wary. They don't see the hidden party. Maybe they attempt Wisdom(Perception) checks in hopes to exceed their passive score. If they fail those against the hidden party's Dexterity(Stealth), they still don't know what's out there.

But the fact of initiative being rolled means they sensed something. A sound of a blade being drawn. A twig stepped on. Nearby animals going silent. A creak of leather armor. More esoterically, a spiking of killing intent. A sudden sense of somebody walking over their grave. The feeling of eyes on them.

We see this in movies and such all the time. If they continue to fail to notice the hidden party, it becomes, "Oh, it was just a cat," and the combat ends.

It makes perfectly reasonable sense. It only fails to make sense if you insist on treating the neatly-ordered action sequence of an initiative round as if it were literally what was happening in the narrative. So people stand around doing nothing until it's their turn, then they move and attack or whatever while everyone else waits politely for them, and then they stand around while others after them take their turns.

Yeah, no. The bolded part of your post is the part that doesn't make sense to me and isn't going to make sense, either.

You talked about a neatly ordered initiative order not making sense in real life. I agree. But I also don't see how creatures are supposed to become aware of the Rogue before the Rogue does anything if the Rogue has passed his stealth check. The scenario you keep posting as a rebuttal is one where the Rogue failed his stealth check. It has nothing to do with surprise. That's the problem.

You seem to be using RAW as justification for what is happening in the game. I think that's backward. The game mechanics should serve the fantasy, not the other way around.

[Segev]

Yeah, no. The bolded part of your post is the part that doesn't make sense to me and isn't going to make sense, either.

You talked about a neatly ordered initiative order not making sense in real life. I agree. But I also don't see how creatures are supposed to become aware of the Rogue before the Rogue does anything if the Rogue has passed his stealth check. The scenario you keep posting as a rebuttal is one where the Rogue failed his stealth check. It has nothing to do with surprise. That's the problem.

You seem to be using RAW as justification for what is happening in the game. I think that's backward. The game mechanics should serve the fantasy, not the other way around.

No, the rogue hasn't failed his stealth check. Or, rather, they haven't succeeded at a Wisdom(Perception) check (passive or otherwise) sufficient to defeat said stealth check. He's still hidden. The Surprised party doesn't know he's there. They know - or suspect - something is there. They don't know what it is, how many of them there are, where it is...only that SOMETHING is there.

If the rogue had failed his stealth check (by rolling lower than the passive perception of the surprised party), they a) wouldn't be surprised, and b) would know where he is, and perceive what he's doing as well as they can perceive what a non-hidden character is doing. Because the rogue is not hidden to those whose perception he didn't beat.

You're insisting it doesn't make sense because you're insisting on confusing "something alerted them" with "they are not surprised and know exactly where the rogue and his party are." If you weren't confusing the two, you wouldn't be saying he failed his stealth check, because the latter is what failing the stealth check means. The former has nothing to do with the stealth check. Nor with what the stealth check represents. Stealth checks represent avoiding being located by any senses. They do NOT mean nobody knows you're there. They CAN mean that, but they don't have to. The DM has to rule based on the situation.

[Maelynn]

Technically, I'm pretty sure the rules in the book never actually say that surprise ends at the end of the first turn -- I'm pretty sure that was either sage advice or twitter. In which case, I'd say it's perfectly fair for a DM to decide that if nothing has happened that would cause the surprised "condition" to end at the end of the first turn or even the first round, it doesn't.

Well, the PHB literally states that "if you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends".

Since it specifically mentions the turn and not the entire round, it means the surprised condition ends after that player's turn has ended.

However.

To me it doesn't make sense that you can't take a reaction 'until that turn ends', because you can only take reactions during another player's turn. How is that possible if you're only surprised during your own turn?

Personally, I consider it to be a typo and that it should've said "until that round ends". That's my rule and I'm sticking to it, because at least then the wording makes sense.

And in the case of the poorly rolling Assassin, it would mean she was indeed denied her advantage on the attack but she would get her autocrit if she were to land an attack.

[Segev]

To me it doesn't make sense that you can't take a reaction 'until that turn ends', because you can only take reactions during another player's turn. How is that possible if you're only surprised during your own turn?

Personally, I consider it to be a typo and that it should've said "until that round ends". That's my rule and I'm sticking to it, because at least then the wording makes sense.

And in the case of the poorly rolling Assassin, it would mean she was indeed denied her advantage on the attack but she would get her autocrit if she were to land an attack.

If you can't take a reaction until your turn ends, that means that you cannot take a reaction before your turn, either. Whereas, if you weren't Surprised, you could, say, use any class features that give you reactions. Like casting shield.

So, for a specific example, if you are a wizard who is Surprised, and you're attacked before your turn, you can't cast shield to protect yourself. After your turn, you can, if attacked again.

[Snails]

But the fact of initiative being rolled means they sensed something. A sound of a blade being drawn. A twig stepped on. Nearby animals going silent. A creak of leather armor. More esoterically, a spiking of killing intent. A sudden sense of somebody walking over their grave. The feeling of eyes on them.

We see this in movies and such all the time. If they continue to fail to notice the hidden party, it becomes, "Oh, it was just a cat," and the combat ends.

It makes perfectly reasonable sense. It only fails to make sense if you insist on treating the neatly-ordered action sequence of an initiative round as if it were literally what was happening in the narrative. So people stand around doing nothing until it's their turn, then they move and attack or whatever while everyone else waits politely for them, and then they stand around while others after them take their turns.

And to be clear, I heard you and I strongly disagree.

"They sensed something" and "something alerted them" are just manufactured facts to avoid following the rules on Stealth and Perception. You can try to sugar coat it all you want, but you are still using DM fiat to negate clear and unambiguous rules that describe the PC and NPC abilities.

A DM sometimes has to bend rules to smooth rough edges and get them to fit together more harmoniously. I respect that, even I do not always agree with the decision. But, let's be clear: bending rules is changing the rules. When a DM does this, they should not pretend it is otherwise -- making a simple fix is making a simple fix.

What you are doing is favoring your interpretation of the Initiative rules over the consensus understanding of the Stealth/Perception rules. There is zero textual support for "they sensed something". That is changing the rules, even if you do not want to admit it. Not admitting you are changing the rules does not make your position more persuasive -- quite the opposite.

[Segev]

And to be clear, I heard you and I strongly disagree.

"They sensed something" and "something alerted them" are just manufactured facts to avoid following the rules on Stealth and Perception. You can try to sugar coat it all you want, but you are still using DM fiat to negate clear and unambiguous rules that describe the PC and NPC abilities.Nope. I am not ignoring the stealth rules at all. You're trying to claim the initiative rules should be thrown out "because they don't make sense," and accusing me of violating rules that I'm following quite strictly when I point out that the initiative rules can make perfect sense.

Now, we can go back and forth attacking each others' motivations all day, but I find the fact that you had to stoop to attacking mine to try to defend your case somewhat telling regarding the solidity of your position.

There are two rules in play, here: Initiative, and Stealth/Perception.

The stealth rules specify that, if the sneaky creature has the higher value (which we're presuming for these examples), the perceiving creatures don't know where the sneaky creature is, and may or may not even know it's there (this is up to a DM call, because there's adjudication not covered by the rules necessary here). For example, if a gobin stabs somebody, then hides, her victim knows she's around...but doesn't know where she is. If a kobold sneaks past some guards, however, the guards probably never knew the kobold was there.
The inititiave rules specify that creatures who are caught unawares when initiative is rolled are Surprised, and that Surprised characters may not act in their first turn, nor take Reactions until the end of their first turn. This interacts with the above Stealth rule in determining whether the creatures are Surprised. However, if (as we presume in these examples) a sneaky creature rolled lower initiative than a Surprised creature, the Surprised creature is effectively no longer Surprised by the time the sneaky creature could act on it. The sneaky creature still gets to act first if it so chooses, because the Surprised creatures couldn't act on that first turn. But the no-longer-Surprised creatures now are alert enough that they can take Reactions as appropriate, and are not vulnerable to any effects which require them to be Surprised (e.g. Assassination) because they're now alert enough to defend themselves from it.

There is no breaking of the stealth rules, here. The fast-reacting Surprised creatures still don't know where the sneaky creatures are, or even how many there are or what they are or anything like that. Not unless and until the sneaky creatures break stealth (or the Surprised creatures manage an active Perception that beats the sneaky creatures' Stealth).

Pretending that allowing the initiative rules to make sense is breaking the Stealth rules is just that: pretending. It's wrong, false, and counterfactual. You may not LIKE the initiative rules and how they work in this situation, but that doesn't mean they make no sense. Disliking them and wanting them to not make sense to justify that dislike doesn't make the explanation for how they make sense violate other rules when those other rules are not, in fact, violated.


A DM sometimes has to bend rules to smooth rough edges and get them to fit together more harmoniously. I respect that, even I do not always agree with the decision. But, let's be clear: bending rules is changing the rules. When a DM does this, they should not pretend it is otherwise -- making a simple fix is making a simple fix.Making a ruling is not bending or breaking the rules. Bending or breaking the rules requires that there be a rule that is being ignored or changed in some way. There is no rule being broken or changed.


What you are doing is favoring your interpretation of the Initiative rules over the consensus understanding of the Stealth/Perception rules. There is zero textual support for "they sensed something". That is changing the rules, even if you do not want to admit it. Not admitting you are changing the rules does not make your position more persuasive -- quite the opposite.
The notion that there is zero textual support for "sensing something" is a strange one. What, then, do you think initiative represents? You want the fact that the Assassin is successfully Hiding to invalidate the initiative rules. You WANT the DM, here, to make a house rule that bends, breaks, or ignores the rules on initiative.

The fact that the rules can make sense without being bent or broken is not breaking or bending the rules, just because you WANT them to be bent or broken in a particular way.

[DMThac0]

So, look at this from a DM perspective rather than a player persepective:

You have an encounter planned, the party is going to be attacked by a few assassins because reasons. The assassins roll stealth and beat the passive perceptions of the party, they get close enough to attack.

1) Do you stop the game at that moment and ask for initiative?
-This approach warns the players that there is a threat in the area, even though they are unaware of the assassins.

2) Do you roll to hit before rolling initiative to simulate a hidden surprise attack?
-This approach gives the players no warning, and no chance of responding appropriately.

3) Do you roll initiative and place miniatures (describe the scene explaining that the assassin behind the tree attacked).
-This approach tells the players where every actor in the encounter is located, even though the assassins are hidden.

The only scenario here that truly emulates a surprise attack would be 2, but it is unfair to the players. It is accepted that the moment combat starts we roll initiative, and we're going to assume the assassins roll low. Rolling initiative warns the players, which in turn warns the characters, that there is danger near. Whether you, as the DM, decide to attack with the assassins, or not, doesn't change the fact that the players are now aware of danger. Their entire focus is going to change, they'll roll perception checks, they'll poke bushes, they'll turn tail and run. Even though they have no clue what is going on, they are aware of danger.

If the players are aware of danger, even though there is "technically" no reason for them to be, then wouldn't the same be true for the NPCs?

---
In my opinion: RAW is not end all be all, it is simply a starting point, a way of creating boundaries to start from. It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that RAW is contradictory in many cases. Quoting RAW should be a place to start an argument and build off of, not used to end an argument.

[Segev]

So, look at this from a DM perspective rather than a player persepective:

You have an encounter planned, the party is going to be attacked by a few assassins because reasons. The assassins roll stealth and beat the passive perceptions of the party, they get close enough to attack.

1) Do you stop the game at that moment and ask for initiative?
-This approach warns the players that there is a threat in the area, even though they are unaware of the assassins.



This one. By the time initiative is being rolled, you're not "ruining" the ambush. The initiative roll doesn't make the PCs not Surprised. If the PCs roll better initiative than the Assassins targeting them, that doesn't stop the Assassins from getting the first hit in, it just means the PCs either notice at the last second and can defend themselves, or that htey were alerted to SOME danger ("the hair on the back of their neck rose" or something) if, for instance, the Assassins chose to cancel the attack because they couldn't Assassinate.

The more likely situation is that one or more of the Assassins will go before one or more of the PCs, and that the Assassins going before the PCs will target PCs they're going before. Some Assassinates will go off; others will not. If the assassins truly botched their init and the PCs rocked theirs, then it would fall back to the "you...thought you heard something, but now you're not so sure." This is also what I'd tell PCs who rolled higher than any assassins at all, even if others did not and the assassins were likely to attack. Well, more likely, in that first round, I'd actually say something like, "You have a sudden sense of something being wrong," and, since they don't actually ahve actions to take, move on.

Those who do NOT beat the Assassins in initiative don't get that sense; the Assassins strike before they even know something's up.

[Snails]

The notion that there is zero textual support for "sensing something" is a strange one. What, then, do you think initiative represents? You want the fact that the Assassin is successfully Hiding to invalidate the initiative rules. You WANT the DM, here, to make a house rule that bends, breaks, or ignores the rules on initiative.

The fact that the rules can make sense without being bent or broken is not breaking or bending the rules, just because you WANT them to be bent or broken in a particular way.

I think Initiative represents a creature acting as best they can to knowledge they possess, and does not represent acting upon knowledge they do not possess like you prefer to believe.

Sometimes that is incomplete knowledge, say, from a rush of observable imminent activity in creatures they can see or from the reactions of observable creatures who are motivated by information possessed only by them. But...when nothing has been observed, then nothing has been observed. Obviously. When a creature has zero information to motivate changing their behavior, I think perhaps the DM should be brave enough to follow basic logic, rather than manufacture facts to fit their whims.

You have zero textual support for your particular opinion that the DM should give NPCs (or PCs) free "extralegal" information to act upon, and that is provable.

[Trickery]

Personally, if the players get attacked by something they can't see, I'll tell them that and see what they do before asking for initiative. I think initiative is for combat, and combat hasn't started yet if something is lurking in the shadows.

However, it works the same way for the players. Hypothetically, if an invisible PC concentrating on Eyebite started making things happen, I wouldn't roll initiative until the monsters figured out that something was attacking them.

If a Rogue stabbed someone in the back while no one was looking, I'd treat it the same way. There would be no chance for that target, who didn't notice the Rogue or didn't know the Rogue was a threat, to react before the Rogue made his move. The only exception would be for specific features like Alert or Foresight.

It doesn't make logical sense to me for creatures in D&D to have a kind of danger sense that warns them whenever someone has hostile intentions nearby. Goblins aren't Spiderman.

[Segev]

I think Initiative represents a creature acting as best they can to knowledge they possess, and does not represent acting upon knowledge they do not possess like you prefer to believe.

Sometimes that is incomplete knowledge, say, from a rush of observable imminent activity in creatures they can see or from the reactions of observable creatures who are motivated by information possessed only by them. But...when nothing has been observed, then nothing has been observed. Obviously. When a creature has zero information to motivate changing their behavior, I think perhaps the DM should be brave enough to follow basic logic, rather than manufacture facts to fit their whims.

You have zero textual support for your particular opinion that the DM should give NPCs (or PCs) free "extralegal" information to act upon, and that is provable.

So, again, you're the one advocating the DM break or bend the rules. As you say, there's nothing wrong with this, but you should be honest about it. I am not, in fact, suggesting the DM break or bend any rules, as what I'm saying is that the RAW make sense as they are.

There is no "opinion" in what I said; the characters in question do know that initiative has been rolled. Or, rather, they know "something" that is represented by initiative being rolled. There's no "extralegal" information involved. How you choose to fluff the IC knowledge corresponding to an initiative roll is up to you, as long as it falls within the mechanics provided. All the examples I gave meet these criteria.

[GooeyChewie]

I think Initiative represents a creature acting as best they can to knowledge they possess, and does not represent acting upon knowledge they do not possess like you prefer to believe.

Sometimes that is incomplete knowledge, say, from a rush of observable imminent activity in creatures they can see or from the reactions of observable creatures who are motivated by information possessed only by them. But...when nothing has been observed, then nothing has been observed. Obviously. When a creature has zero information to motivate changing their behavior, I think perhaps the DM should be brave enough to follow basic logic, rather than manufacture facts to fit their whims.

You have zero textual support for your particular opinion that the DM should give NPCs (or PCs) free "extralegal" information to act upon, and that is provable.

Rules as written are pretty clear in this situation. When combat starts for any reason, including the assassination attempt, everybody involved rolls initiative. Any NPCs or PCs who were surprised at that time gain the Surprised condition and lose it at the end of their turn. You don’t have to like those rules, and if your table doesn’t want to play by those rules you don’t have to do so. The “surprise round” is a common house rule (largely, I think, because previous editions used it). But let’s not pretend that following the rules as written is somehow a DM fiat or whim.

The idea that the Surprised character “senses” something is merely fluff to describe what might happen in-universe when you follow the rules as written. Nobody is suggesting that the character should get any “extralegal” information. There is textual evidence, rules in fact, that support the “opinion” that the character loses the Surprised condition at the end of its turn, and that’s all that anybody is suggesting should happen.

[sithlordnergal]

Meh, just go with a Surprise Round instead of a Surprise Condition, with everyone who fails a perception check or lacks Alert remaining Surprised until the round ends, and it essentially fixes all the complaints.

Suddenly a poor roll on either side won't matter, Surprise becomes easier to use, and it allows more abilities to be used.

[Trickery]

Meh, just go with a Surprise Round instead of a Surprise Condition, with everyone who fails a perception check or lacks Alert remaining Surprised until the round ends, and it essentially fixes all the complaints.

Suddenly a poor roll on either side won't matter, Surprise becomes easier to use, and it allows more abilities to be used.

Considering that's how earlier editions worked (to my knowledge) and seems to be a common way to handle such scenarios anyway, I don't know why Crawford and Mearls made the surprised situation so confusing in the first place.

[Contrast]

To those asking what happens if the party rolls initiative and then does nothing - I'd ask why exactly you rolled initiative.

If your characters are choosing to do nothing in an effort to reroll initiative and get one of the players a better initiative its time for the table to sit down and have a talk about what roleplaying is and the difference between in and out of character knowledge.

[Tawmis]

To those asking what happens if the party rolls initiative and then does nothing - I'd ask why exactly you rolled initiative.
If your characters are choosing to do nothing in an effort to reroll initiative and get one of the players a better initiative its time for the table to sit down and have a talk about what roleplaying is and the difference between in and out of character knowledge.

So let's do this as an example...
Party spots 5 Bandits sitting around a fire. The Bandits seem pretty occupied talking about the latest hit on the wagon they attacked. They're flashing their treasure around and laughing, feeling cocky and victorious. They've got no idea that the party has been sent to track them down. With the party spotting them, and the Bandits unaware of their situation, the party turns to the Rogue and agrees she should go first with an attempt to assassinate one of them (say the leader).

Everyone rolls...

Fighter rolls a 18.
Cleric rolls a 14.
Bard rolls a 10.
Bandits roll a 8.
Rogue managed to a 6.
Paladin rolls a 3.

Well. Damn.

So the Fighter, Cleric, Bard all "Ready Action" - waiting for the signal from the Rogue to do an assassination attack.

Now everyone in the party has "Ready Action" - and technically next it's the Bandits.

Here's where you can, as a DM, if you want roll a Passive Perception against the Rogue's stealth (as the Rogue is approaching). Or go with the Bandits are too loud and oblivious to even care.

Now the Rogue goes, attempts assassinate, does a bucket of damage!

Now the party rushes out of the bushes!

The Fighter goes first, swinging at the closest enemy. Cleric casts a spell. Bard sings a song.

Now the Bandits react.

Rogue doesn't go since they already went.

So Paladin goes.

That's how I'd run it, anyway.

[Snails]

Rules as written are pretty clear in this situation. When combat starts for any reason, including the assassination attempt, everybody involved rolls initiative. Any NPCs or PCs who were surprised at that time gain the Surprised condition and lose it at the end of their turn. You don’t have to like those rules, and if your table doesn’t want to play by those rules you don’t have to do so. The “surprise round” is a common house rule (largely, I think, because previous editions used it). But let’s not pretend that following the rules as written is somehow a DM fiat or whim.

The idea that the Surprised character “senses” something is merely fluff to describe what might happen in-universe when you follow the rules as written. Nobody is suggesting that the character should get any “extralegal” information. There is textual evidence, rules in fact, that support the “opinion” that the character loses the Surprised condition at the end of its turn, and that’s all that anybody is suggesting should happen.

As a general argument, I am okay enough with your first paragraph, regardless of whether I like it or agree with it or not.

Your "mere fluff" that "senses something" occurs is simply simply manufactured facts in contradiction of the existing consensus understanding of the rules for Stealth/Perception, rules that are really quite clear. You are very literally motivating action of characters based on non-information and handwaving why this okay.

In fact, your reasoning is circular. Some posters are pointing to a weakness in the rules. You cover over the weakness with overt DM whim to give free extralegal info to some characters to motivate actions that cannot be justified by the actual existing rules, and then rationalize that it can't be whim because it allows us to pretend that the rules have no holes.

Sorry, but no.

[Contrast]

Your "mere fluff" that "senses something" occurs is simply simply manufactured facts in contradiction of the existing consensus understanding of the rules for Stealth/Perception, rules that are really quite clear. You are very literally motivating action of characters based on non-information and handwaving why this okay.

In fact, your reasoning is circular. Some posters are pointing to a weakness in the rules. You cover over the weakness with overt DM whim to give free extralegal info to some characters to motivate actions that cannot be justified by the actual existing rules, and then rationalize that it can't be whim because it allows us to pretend that the rules have no holes.

Sorry, but no.

Out of interest have you read the barbarians 7th level class feature Feral Instinct?

[Snails]

To those asking what happens if the party rolls initiative and then does nothing - I'd ask why exactly you rolled initiative.

If your characters are choosing to do nothing in an effort to reroll initiative and get one of the players a better initiative its time for the table to sit down and have a talk about what roleplaying is and the difference between in and out of character knowledge.

I rolled initiative because the DM told me to. I did nothing because I perceived that my Assassin did not have a good enough opportunity at this point in time to use his best skill. Now what?

It is fair to ask whether an Assassin can notice whether his intended target has taken initiative yet. It seems to me like something that would not be hard to notice, in most cases. There are actual mechanical effects that could observed by apparent physical readiness in posture, like whether that spear is held ready to poke at someone who runs by.

If the DM wants to demand Perception/Insight checks I would be okay with that. But this should not be difficult DCs typically speaking, or that is meta gaming on the DM's part. It is the rare guard, for example, that pretends to not be paying attention so that his captain can wander by and box his ears for stupidity (although an unusually clever guard who rolled well on Perception might try this trick).

[Snails]

Out of interest have you read the barbarians 7th level class feature Feral Instinct?

Yes. It is a significant class ability that is "like magic" and has specific known effects within the rules.

[gloryblaze]

To those asking what happens if the party rolls initiative and then does nothing - I'd ask why exactly you rolled initiative.

If your characters are choosing to do nothing in an effort to reroll initiative and get one of the players a better initiative its time for the table to sit down and have a talk about what roleplaying is and the difference between in and out of character knowledge.

So much this. Players don’t get to decide when to roll initiative, the DM does. And the DM should roll initiative if and only if someone declares a hostile action.

Say the party is hiding in the bushes, and an unsuspecting group of bandits is walking by on the road. The goblins lack the passive perception to notice the party. Alright, cool. So far, so good.

Rogue player: Alright guys, I can probably one shot their leader with Assassinate if we surprise them.
Other players: Cool, let’s do that.

It feels like this is where most of the people who are pro-surprise round would roll initiative. This creates the problem they are experiencing. The party is now in initiative, but combat hasn’t started. This is what creates the problem.

So if initiative goes:

Fighter: pass or ready
Ranger: pass or ready
Bandit captain: pass

And now it’s the rogue’s turn, we have a mechanics-narrative mismatch. Because nobody said what they were doing in character to initiate combat, the rogue could hypothetically pass as well and now the bandits aren’t surprised even though literally nothing happened. Makes no sense.

That’s why you should not have rolled initiative there. Instead, the DM needs to say, “OK, so what do you do?” Then the rogue might say “I leap from the bushes and attack their leader” or whatever.

This is when we roll initiative.For instance:

Fighter
Bandit captain
Rogue
etc

DM: “Rouge the rogue leaps from the bushes, her vermillion daggers glinting in the fading light! The bandits whirl to face her, taken completely by surprise! Frita Fighter, what are you doing as Rouge springs out of hiding?”

Frita: “I remain in hiding and load up my heavy crossbow, ready to finish off the captain if Rouge doesn’t kill him with her attack.”

DM: “The bandit’s leader is caught unawares by your leap. He turns to face you with a look of shock and panic in his eyes as he desperately fumbles with his sheathed sword with one hand and tries to shield his face with the other. Rouge, you’re up. Since he couldn’t see you when you jumped out to attack, you have advantage on your attack roll.”

Rouge: “I plunge my dagger into him! 14, or... 17!”

DM: “That hits! You swing your dagger down, hard. Thanks to the captain’s fast reflexes, it plunges into his hand rather than taking out an eye. The blade easily slices through the thick leather of his glove and cuts into flesh. Go ahead and roll regular sneak attack damage, but you missed out on the free Crit because he wasn’t surprised by the time you attacked.”


Everything works out because initiative has been rolled when combat starts instead of before it.

[Tanarii]

No. Until someone can point to an actual reason to believe otherwise, it is not an assumption at all; rather it is the only logically tenable position.ah yes, "logical", internet-ese for "my preferred assumption".

If your preferred assumption breaks the rules, and a different assumption lets them work, your preferred assumption isnt actually logical.

[Snails]

Considering that's how earlier editions worked (to my knowledge) and seems to be a common way to handle such scenarios anyway, I don't know why Crawford and Mearls made the surprised situation so confusing in the first place.

They overcorrected.

For good reason, they were trying to cut out as many fiddly rules as practical. They thought it was possible to just do away with the Surprise Round and not even have a Surprised Condition.

They were right insofar as the most common situations do not require these concepts, and the game runs faster for it.

They were wrong insofar as once the Assassinate ability was added to the core rules, there was a non-rare strong motive for PCs and NPCs to poke at the boundaries of the new rules here, and the new rules are lacking.

[Snails]

ah yes, "logical", internet-ese for "my preferred assumption".

If your preferred assumption breaks the rules, and a different assumption lets them work, your preferred assumption isnt actually logical.

Your position creates a contradiction with the consensus understanding of the Stealth/Perception rules, so you just argued for my conclusion and against your own. Thanks!

[Contrast]

I rolled initiative because the DM told me to. I did nothing because I perceived that my Assassin did not have a good enough opportunity at this point in time to use his best skill. Now what?

Why did your DM tell you to roll initiative when you're all hidden and pouncing an ambush unless one of you said 'lets pounce this ambush'. Your assassin is still striking from hidden on an unsuspecting foe (advantage, sneak attack). What in character advantage are you not perceiving the assassin as having?

If you insist...well you wasted your surprise round. I guess you can attack next turn if you like?


Yes. It is a significant class ability that is "like magic" and has specific known effects within the rules.

I mean surprise also has known effect within the rules. But whatever honestly we can get way more ridiculous than your examples.

Imagine someone on a treadmill that tried to tip them into lava which moves 30ft at the start of each turn but the person moves 30ft each turn so they don't get tipped off. The party sneaks up and then... stands up slowly. Our poor treadmiller is so surprised by the party slowly standing up that he finds himself unable to move and falls to his death.

Its almost like the initiative rules make absolutely no sense if you try and think of them in real life logic and only make sense if you accept them as abstracted game mechanics.

[Gallowglass]

So, look at this from a DM perspective rather than a player persepective:

You have an encounter planned, the party is going to be attacked by a few assassins because reasons. The assassins roll stealth and beat the passive perceptions of the party, they get close enough to attack.

1) Do you stop the game at that moment and ask for initiative?
-This approach warns the players that there is a threat in the area, even though they are unaware of the assassins.

2) Do you roll to hit before rolling initiative to simulate a hidden surprise attack?
-This approach gives the players no warning, and no chance of responding appropriately.

3) Do you roll initiative and place miniatures (describe the scene explaining that the assassin behind the tree attacked).
-This approach tells the players where every actor in the encounter is located, even though the assassins are hidden.

The only scenario here that truly emulates a surprise attack would be 2, but it is unfair to the players. It is accepted that the moment combat starts we roll initiative, and we're going to assume the assassins roll low. Rolling initiative warns the players, which in turn warns the characters, that there is danger near. Whether you, as the DM, decide to attack with the assassins, or not, doesn't change the fact that the players are now aware of danger. Their entire focus is going to change, they'll roll perception checks, they'll poke bushes, they'll turn tail and run. Even though they have no clue what is going on, they are aware of danger.

If the players are aware of danger, even though there is "technically" no reason for them to be, then wouldn't the same be true for the NPCs?

---
In my opinion: RAW is not end all be all, it is simply a starting point, a way of creating boundaries to start from. It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that RAW is contradictory in many cases. Quoting RAW should be a place to start an argument and build off of, not used to end an argument.

DM: "Okay, you guys are walking down the old forest trail. Roll Initiative.

Fighter: "18"
Wizard: "16"
Rogue: "8"
Cleric: "3"

DM: "Okay" *rolls for bandits. they get a 10*. "Suddenly the brush breaks and five black clad bandits leap out and attack. Fighter and Wizard react fast enough to clear surprise before they attack. One bandit attacks each of you."

Wizard: "I use a reaction to throw up shield"

DM: "That's fine because you cleared suprise."

DM: *rolls a bunch of attacks* "Fighter you avoid the blow, Wizard you get shield up just in time to deflect the attack. Rogue you got hit for 6 damage and Cleric you got ASSASSINATED CRITTED for 25 dmg. Ouch. The fifth bandit, who has hung back at the forest edge with a crossbow, surveys the combat and chooses to shoot at the Cleric." *rolls* "he hits for 6 damage"

Cleric: "Damn, that drops me."

DM: "Yeah sorry about that. The bandit leader yells "Surrender or Die!" Then the Rogue clears surprise. Okay Fighter, you're up."


***

So, you know, the same way I would handle it the other way.

DM: "Okay, there are five bandits in the clearing, but they haven't heard or noticed your approach.

Fighter: "Great. So Thief is going to do an ASSASSINATE attack, then the rest of us are going to leap in and attack. I'll go after the leader if the Thief fails to kill him."

DM: "Okay? That's the plan? Okay. Roll Initiave.

Fighter: "18"
Wizard: "16"
Rogue: "8"
Cleric: "3"

DM: "Okay." *rolls for bandits, gets a 10* "Okay. you maneuver around the campsite then tense for attack. The rogue springs out, with the rest of you on his heels and goes for the bandit chief. The bandits swing around with looks of abject shock and start springing up to defend themselves. The thief did not beat their initiative."

Fighter: "Okay, seeing that the surprise is busted, I attack the bandit chief." *rolls* "17 damage."

Wizard: "I fireball the rest of them. 14 dmg unless they save."

DM: "Okay. The bandit chief shrieks and stumbles backwards bleeding heavily, the rest of the bandits get to their feet , pat down the flames and clear surprise."

Rogue: "*sigh* I attack the chief. Hit. 5 damage"

Cleric: "Hey, I lived through this one!"



****

The rules are functional as written.

Dumb. But functional.

[Trickery]

If the surprise rules are dumb, and they are, then there's no need to use them. Going with what makes sense in the moment or just sticking with the old surprise round mechanic are better solutions.

[Segev]

Your "mere fluff" that "senses something" occurs is simply simply manufactured facts in contradiction of the existing consensus understanding of the rules for Stealth/Perception, rules that are really quite clear. You are very literally motivating action of characters based on non-information and handwaving why this okay.Nope. Stealth remains unbroken. Nothing is breaking any rules here. The rules don't say, "Creatures who don't exceed your Stealth automatically lose initiative to you." Which is what they would have to say for you to be right about me using "manufactured facts in contradiction of the existing consensus." Also, what does "consensus" have to do with the RAW? The RAW say what they say, and no number of people saying that the rules say a natural 1 is an automatic critical success on any d20 roll can change that such a "consensus" would be wrong.

Moreover, you seem to be appealing to a "consensus" when there isn't one, anyway, which is not only poor logic, but just plain wrong.

Show me where I'm "manufacturing facts." So far, you've asserted, and I've made assumptions about what your assertion means, and I've refuted those assumed meanings. You've just come back and repeated the assertion wtihout actually rebutting what I said. So please either rebut what I said or make the meaning of your assertion clearer, because right now, you seem to me to just be hoping to shout me down. Where is saying that the fluff for why initiative was rolled and the no-longer-surprised creatures lost their surprised condition can make sense a violation of the rules for Stealth? Please spell out specifically the rules for Stealth and how they're being violated.


In fact, your reasoning is circular. Some posters are pointing to a weakness in the rules. You cover over the weakness with overt DM whim to give free extralegal info to some characters to motivate actions that cannot be justified by the actual existing rules, and then rationalize that it can't be whim because it allows us to pretend that the rules have no holes.

Sorry, but no.Asserting something doesn't make it true, especially when it's been refuted. You also don't seem to understand what circular reasoning means. Circular reasoning is something like, "Bob told me he never lies. I can believe him because he never lies, and it would be lying to say he didn't when he did."

"The rules can make sense just fine with this fluff, and the fluff doesn't change any mechanics nor violate any rules for these reasons," is not circular.

[Trickery]

I do have a question for proponents of the current surprise rules. Let's say I'm an assassin rogue, I try to do my thing, I get surprise, but I don't win initiative. Okay, so I leave. I don't break stealth, I just leave. And wait. And then I try again a few minutes later or whatever it is.

What's stopping me? Are you the DM going to rule that I can't play that way? Or am I somehow acting on information that the character wouldn't know? To the latter, I argue that all combat information is known to the characters, it just may not be known in the same mechanical way.

[DMThac0]

That’s why you should not have rolled initiative there. Instead, the DM needs to say, “OK, so what do you do?” Then the rogue might say “I leap from the bushes and attack their leader” or whatever.

This is when we roll initiative.For instance:

Fighter
Bandit captain
Rogue
etc


The Rogue declares their intent and you roll initiative, the order is in place, good so far.




DM: “Rouge the rogue leaps from the bushes, her vermillion daggers glinting in the fading light! The bandits whirl to face her, taken completely by surprise! Frita Fighter, what are you doing as Rouge springs out of hiding?”

You have just narrated that the Rogue got to move out of initiative order here. The Fighter is first in the initiative so the Rogue could not move until their turn.



Frita: “I remain in hiding and load up my heavy crossbow, ready to finish off the captain if Rouge doesn’t kill him with her attack.”

The Fighter has not done anything to reveal their position except, potentially loading the crossbow (the creak of cords or crank). With a high enough passive Perception the Bandit could hear it, but it would be an amazing DC due to the ruckus that the Bandits are making, on top of the party having already been in stealth and not seen/heard.



DM: “The bandit’s leader is caught unawares by your leap. He turns to face you with a look of shock and panic in his eyes as he desperately fumbles with his sheathed sword with one hand and tries to shield his face with the other. Rouge, you’re up. Since he couldn’t see you when you jumped out to attack, you have advantage on your attack roll.”


What exactly caused the Bandit Leader to be able to turn toward the Rogue? Was it the movement you allowed before the Rogues initiative? Was it the Crossbow being loaded?
Mechanically it was a high initiative, however the Rogue should not have been allowed to move and a Perception vs Stealth would be needed to hear the Crossbow being loaded.

----
In your example, and for most of the problems I see here, I would offer a very simple approach:

Assassin declares intent to use their assassinate skill.
DM asks if the rest of the party is going to attack at that time.
The party may opt to let the Rogue go solo and not initiate combat.
Assassin rolls initiative vs the target(s), initiative plays out for that round.
The rest of the party joins the fight on round 2 rolling their initiatives.
-If the Assassin decides not to attack, due to whatever reason, then surprise is lost and the game moves on.

This is exactly how a DM would handle adding extra monsters to a fight, the players should be able to do the exact same if they choose to do so. In regards to Stealth, the players hiding until the Assassin does their thing, treat it the same as always; passive Perception vs their rolls.

[gloryblaze]

The Rogue declares their intent and you roll initiative, the order is in place, good so far.



You have just narrated that the Rogue got to move out of initiative order here. The Fighter is first in the initiative so the Rogue could not move until their turn.

You seem to think that turns exist narratively instead of being an abstraction for simultaneous action. Mechanically, yes. The rogue’s movement takes place on her turn, mechanically (her mini stays in the bush until her turn, then she moves it all at once). But turns happen simultaneously in the narrative. The rogue emerging from the bush is what triggers combat. The fighter and bandit captain both are moving at the same time as the rogue, in reaction to her movement, but their superior reflexes in that moment allow there actions to resolve first in the mechanics of the combat. It’s not like the fighter loads her bow, then waits. Then the bandit turns around, and waits. And then the rogue runs up and stabs the bandit. And then 6 seconds pass and the fighter does something new. All those 3 things happen simultaneously in the 6 second period.

Also, I never suggested that the bandit captain noticed the fighter, so IDK why you seem to think i did. In fact, the fighter is just set dressing to the example. It would go the same way if it was a lone assassin and a lone bandit.

[Segev]

I do have a question for proponents of the current surprise rules. Let's say I'm an assassin rogue, I try to do my thing, I get surprise, but I don't win initiative. Okay, so I leave. I don't break stealth, I just leave. And wait. And then I try again a few minutes later or whatever it is.

What's stopping me? Are you the DM going to rule that I can't play that way? Or am I somehow acting on information that the character wouldn't know? To the latter, I argue that all combat information is known to the characters, it just may not be known in the same mechanical way.

On the contrary, that seems a wise move.

[DMThac0]

You seem to think that turns exist narratively instead of being an abstraction for simultaneous action. Mechanically, yes. The rogue’s movement takes place on her turn, mechanically (her mini stays in the bush until her turn, then she moves it all at once). But turns happen simultaneously in the narrative. The rogue emerging from the bush is what triggers combat. The fighter and bandit captain both are moving at the same time as the rogue, in reaction to her movement, but their superior reflexes in that moment allow there actions to resolve first in the mechanics of the combat. It’s not like the fighter loads her bow, then waits. Then the bandit turns around, and waits. And then the rogue runs up and stabs the bandit. And then 6 seconds pass and the fighter does something new. All those 3 things happen simultaneously in the 6 second period.

There is an argument being made for abstraction and a linear sequence in the same context. Yes, a round equates to 6 seconds. Yes the actors are all doing something in those 6 seconds. However, due to the way that combat is structured, there is a need for a linear resolution otherwise initiative would not be present.

Initiative is a representation of readiness, agility, combat prowess, alertness, and many other adjectives in that vein. It is also a representation of luck, hence rolling the dice. So, when the Fighter rolls a higher initiative, they are displaying that they were lucky and more prepared than the Rogue. They are, indeed, able to act faster, even if by a fraction of that 6 second window.

It is not a simultaneous action, it is one act in a timeline (initiative) that is finite (6 seconds), and doesn't equate to "waiting patiently" instead representing "having a quicker draw". The only time you get simultaneous actions is when two, or more, creatures land on the same initiative.



Also, I never suggested that the bandit captain noticed the fighter, so IDK why you seem to think i did. In fact, the fighter is just set dressing to the example. It would go the same way if it was a lone assassin and a lone bandit.

No, you did not suggest they did, I was making that example as potential reasoning for how/why the bandit could be aware of the Assassin attacking before it happened.

[Damon_Tor]

Every module I'm aware of that has ambush encounters have the dm say something like "Green figures leap from the bushes, spears glistening with poison. It's an ambush!" Then have everyone roll for initiative. AFAIK they never just have spears fly out and hit the players from the bushes THEN roll initiative. Initiative, and thus knowledge that combat has begun, precedes any attacks being rolled.

[DMThac0]

Every module I'm aware of that has ambush encounters have the dm say something like "Green figures leap from the bushes, spears glistening with poison. It's an ambush!" Then have everyone roll for initiative. AFAIK they never just have spears fly out and hit the players from the bushes THEN roll initiative. Initiative, and thus knowledge that combat has begun, precedes any attacks being rolled.

If the creatures jump out and brandish weapons, are you surprised? No.

Can you attack outside of Initiative? No.

An ambush requires the attackers to be hidden/concealed and surprise their target(s).

To surprise your target(s) you must both be hidden and have a higher placement on the initiative.

[Illven]

Question, can an unconcious creature clear the surprise condition?

Like if the player gets knocked down to 0, before their init, and healed up after, are they technically surprised round 2?

[Segev]

Question, can an unconcious creature clear the surprise condition?

Like if the player gets knocked down to 0, before their init, and healed up after, are they technically surprised round 2?

Technically, yes. In practice, too, I'd treat it that way, for the same reason that I'd allow a character who was downed while NOT surprised to get back up and act normally if he got healed to positive hp.

Sure, waking up on the ground is unexpected, but you KNOW something's wrong and can see what's going on.

[Hail Tempus]

Its certainly nowhere near as powerful as many people seem to think it is, given how difficult Surprise can be to achieve, without some exceptional efforts or resource expenditure.I’m generally not a fan of abilities that are so dependent on the DM cooperating. The Assassinate ability is up there with the Wood Elf and Halfling racial hide abilities. Inexperienced and/or bad DMs just don’t like them, though they can’t articulate why.

[Segev]

I’m generally not a fan of abilities that are so dependent on the DM cooperating. The Assassinate ability is up there with the Wood Elf and Halfling racial hide abilities. Inexperienced and/or bad DMs just don’t like them, though they can’t articulate why.

That's less "the DM cooperating" and more "the DM not shutting them down due to personal dislike." There was a thread on here a while back about somebody asking for help with getting sneak attacks to work because his DM kept making up rules as to why they wouldn't, despite Advantage being sufficient.

Illusions are another that falls into this category, perhaps more closely to the "needs DM cooperation" complaint than the others, because DMs need to have their monsters react as they would to real things being present, and so often instead have them take actions that "just happen" to reveal their falseness, or evaluate them as "not important enough compared to this other, real thing."

[Keravath]

...
To me it doesn't make sense that you can't take a reaction 'until that turn ends', because you can only take reactions during another player's turn. How is that possible if you're only surprised during your own turn?

...

I would just like to point out that the bolded part is absolutely NOT true. If you have a reaction available you can take it at any time.

Some examples:
- casting shield against a held action attack timed to go off on your turn. "If the mage moves or starts casting a spell, I shoot him". The mage can react by casting shield.
- mage starts to cast a spell, opponent counterspells, mage casts counterspell as a reaction on the counterspell and finishes casting their spell
- monk slow fall - monk falls in a hole and uses their reaction to use slow fall
- wizard walks into a pit trap and uses their reaction on their turn to cast feather fall

There are lots of other examples of characters using their reaction ON THEIR TURN :)

As far as the surprise goes ... IF you are surprised, it only extends until the END of your first turn in combat. Until surprise ends you can't move, use actions or reactions, after surprise ends you can act normally. Surprise ends at the end of your first turn.

--------

In the case of an assassin with low initiative then they will lose out on advantage on attacks against creatures who have already had a turn. If it is a surprise round they lose out on automatic crit damage against those who have already had their turn.

[Trickery]

In the case of an assassin with low initiative then they will lose out on advantage on attacks against creatures who have already had a turn. If it is a surprise round they lose out on automatic crit damage against those who have already had their turn.

I don't think there's much argument about what the rules say. Rather, what some of us are saying is:

The assassin shouldn't need to both gain surprise and win initiative to use their primary "assassinate" feature. Gaining surprise should be enough.
It doesn't make sense for a creature to become aware of or be able to use its reaction against an assassin who has passed his stealth check if the assassin has not yet acted and the creature is unaware of the assassin's presence.

Basically, this is a situation where many of us feel that the rules as written are lacking.

[Doug Lampert]

I don't think there's much argument about what the rules say. Rather, what some of us are saying is:

The assassin shouldn't need to both gain surprise and win initiative to use their primary "assassinate" feature. Gaining surprise should be enough.
It doesn't make sense for a creature to become aware of or be able to use its reaction against an assassin who has passed his stealth check if the assassin has not yet acted and the creature is unaware of the assassin's presence.

Basically, this is a situation where many of us feel that the rules as written are lacking.

If we're arguing "realism", the Assassin CAN NOT STRIKE until he has exposed himself. There is clearly a realistic chance that he leans around the corner with his bow or leaps from cover with his dagger, and the opponent reacts quickly enough to avoid the assassinate ability.

Happens all the time in fiction that an assassin strikes and misses due to the target being not quite as surprised as he thought.

The initiative roll represents exactly this chance. If you don't have it, then you're houseruling that assassinate is somehow automatic and an assassin's arrow teleports instantly from his bow while he's still in concealment into the target's kidney. THAT'S the unreasonable ruling.

[Tanarii]

I’m generally not a fan of abilities that are so dependent on the DM cooperating. The Assassinate ability is up there with the Wood Elf and Halfling racial hide abilities. Inexperienced and/or bad DMs just don’t like them, though they can’t articulate why.
Its more that it is dependent on the player understanding the rules, and that those rules make it a niche ability.

Wood Elf hide is a good analogy for that. Halflign racial far less so, its a pretty common circumstance.

[deljzc]

It was confusing when I first read the rules and in fact, I started another thread on this before. I suspect there have been many threads here that debate surprise, initiative and Rogue Assassins.

As I'm learning and writing modules and playing 5e, there are certainly some things I don't like and this is one of them. But it is manageable.

And I always say, if you don't like it or the table doesn't like it, change it. Make your own rules. It's not that hard really and there are countless alternative and homebrew ideas floating about the internet on initiative and surprise. And those could lead into a better way to handle Rogue Assassins.

Heck, I think in 1st and 2nd addition, assassins couldn't use range weapons to get their backstab ability. You could go back to that. I'm not completely sold on the "sniper" rogue assassin archetype anyhow. Doesn't make sense at more damage or ability than an Archer-based specialist/fighter.

[Snails]

Happens all the time in fiction that an assassin strikes and misses due to the target being not quite as surprised as he thought.

The initiative roll represents exactly this chance. If you don't have it, then you're houseruling that assassinate is somehow automatic and an assassin's arrow teleports instantly from his bow while he's still in concealment into the target's kidney. THAT'S the unreasonable ruling.

This line of reasoning does not reduce arguments about mystical and bizarre teleportation, but creates more scenarios where the reasoning becomes relevant, while providing no genuinely useful guidance.

Specifically, if the argument is that the Assassin exposing himself to make the attack must be factored in by some special means, then what do you do for an Assassin that is well hidden, say, ten feet away from the intended point of attack? (He is waiting there to be better hidden and the bushes are in the way) . Now we have a Schrodinger character whose figure is sitting in a specific spot while a lucky would be victim is reacting to his future appearance in a physically different location before the Assassin even moves. <head scratch>

As for the lucky effort that allows the hero to survive an assassination attempt, that has always been one of the things that level scaling Hit Points are good at. We already assume that the knight in shining armor is somehow twisting aside to avoid the brunt of the impossible to survive dragon's breath, right? Why do we need an additional layer to explain things away here?

[Snails]

Heck, I think in 1st and 2nd addition, assassins couldn't use range weapons to get their backstab ability. You could go back to that. I'm not completely sold on the "sniper" rogue assassin archetype anyhow. Doesn't make sense at more damage or ability than an Archer-based specialist/fighter.

It is a separate topic, but that is a worthy point to consider. 5e Rogues are not necessarily more squishy than a heavily armored Cleric. And, unlike in 3e, the melee Dex build comes at no cost. Rogues do not require any special advantage to their ranged attacks, anymore. (Obviously, I would never make that one change in a vacuum.)

[Tanarii]

This line of reasoning does not reduce arguments about mystical and bizarre teleportation, but creates more scenarios where the reasoning becomes relevant, while providing no genuinely useful guidance.
There is no teleportation. The game is an abstraction, not a simulation. The DM starts a combat as fits the scenario and the dice. The DM can start with all the PCs inside a room when they declare they open a door and charge in. They can (and should) start an ambush with the stealthy attempting ambushers (not individually hidden characters) launching their ambush, and roll initiative.

And it's important to distinguish and note that despite using stealth to resolve the mechanic, it's a check for surprise when an ambush is launched. Not a check to hide at the beginning of combat.

[CorporateSlave]

Specifically, if the argument is that the Assassin exposing himself to make the attack must be factored in by some special means, then what do you do for an Assassin that is well hidden, say, ten feet away from the intended point of attack? (He is waiting there to be better hidden and the bushes are in the way) . Now we have a Schrodinger character whose figure is sitting in a specific spot while a lucky would be victim is reacting to his future appearance in a physically different location before the Assassin even moves. <head scratch>

I'm not even sure what you are on about here, head scratch indeed!


Why do we need an additional layer to explain things away here?

Well, only because some people can't deal with a game mechanic that (very) occasionally "robs" them of a subclass feature, and set up hypothetical "real world" situations that illustrate their own point of view, while ignoring any other possibilities to try and make the case that they must be right, and the rules are wrong.

Low Initiative roll? Then I guess narratively something happened that either gave you away, gave the victim a funny feeling, or you just had a bad day and were a little slower or noisier that usual, and by the time the attack landed they somehow saw it coming. Maybe they saw movement in a reflection as you struck. Maybe the victim has better reflexes than you judged. Maybe they just had a bunch of coffee and are super twitchy right now. You can argue some made-up example of why each of things things doesn't fit your mental picture of what is going on. However, it's not one thing, it is any one of a number of things, or combination of things. Besides, your mental picture of what you expected is no guarantee that's how the dice will pan out for you.

[AHF]

Seems pretty simple. The mechanic designed in 5E only trigger assassinate if the victim is surprised and if the rogue wins a contest - ie initiative. If a DM thinks this makes the subclass feature too weak then change the rules and implement a houserule that will account for this. But there is no reading of the rules and trains of logic that get around the very simple mechanic that was designed which requires the higher initiative roll.

And there are tons of things to enhance that initiative roll: Enhance Ability, Guidance, an item like Sentinel Shield, the Alert feat, etc.

The narrative is up to the DM but for me the initiative roll isn’t something the rogue is aware of until he attacks. It doesn’t go to the conditions for surprise being disrupted because surprise isn’t disrupted. It doesn’t go to sneak attack. It just goes to whether the bonus autocrit applies on top and is probably best represented by how the attack strikes/how the victim reacts (a very specific and lethal strike to a vulnerable area or a normal attack/sneak attack because the victim moves at the last moment or the victim’s armor deflects the strike, etc.)

I run it mechanically as described but, again, if a DM wants to give autocrit in any surprise situation that is fine. If I were going to houserule that, however, I would also make sure the players encounter some opponents with this ability when narratively appropriate as well.

[Damon_Tor]

Specifically, if the argument is that the Assassin exposing himself to make the attack must be factored in by some special means, then what do you do for an Assassin that is well hidden, say, ten feet away from the intended point of attack? (He is waiting there to be better hidden and the bushes are in the way) . Now we have a Schrodinger character whose figure is sitting in a specific spot while a lucky would be victim is reacting to his future appearance in a physically different location before the Assassin even moves. <head scratch>

Again, turns happen simultaneously. It's not "before the Assassin even moves." It all happens at the same time. Narratively, he starts his actions toward the beginning of the 6-second round and finishes them towards the end of the 6 second round. Initiative order is an abstraction.

I think this is the key difference of understanding in this thread: those who don't understand why initiative effects surprise are not wrapping their heads around the idea that a low initiative order does not mean that character is performing his actions after someone ahead of him in the initiative order in terms of the narrative.

[DMThac0]

Again, turns happen simultaneously. It's not "before the Assassin even moves." It all happens at the same time. Narratively, he starts his actions toward the beginning of the 6-second round and finishes them towards the end of the 6 second round. Initiative order is an abstraction.

I think this is the key difference of understanding in this thread: those who don't understand why initiative effects surprise are not wrapping their heads around the idea that a low initiative order does not mean that character is performing his actions after someone ahead of him in the initiative order in terms of the narrative.

It doesn't happen at the same time, initiative is not an abstraction.


Combat involves 2, or more, actors in a scene, in this case: Target and Assassin.
You cannot attack outside of Initiative.
You have a defined timeline: Initiative.
You have a defined frame of time: A Round.
You have a defined location inside Initiative and a Round: A Turn.

None of that is abstract, it is explained by the book.

Then we have the Combat Step by Step table on page 189 in the PHB gives a defined sequence of events, that's not an abstraction.

The only part of that information that could be considered an abstraction is that a round equals 6 seconds. However, the fact that it is used to help define a round makes it less likely to be an abstraction.

---
The Assassin declares an attack.

Before anything else, the DM decides if there are any actors in the scene that are Surprised.

If there are any actors in the scene that are Surprised, they gain the Surprised condition.

If the target is Surprised, they cannot move, take actions, or reactions on their turn.

---
If the Assassin cannot attack without Initiative being rolled, that would mean the declaration is of intent as opposed to action.

If you consider the Assassin attacking the moment they declare it, you should be rolling To Hit rather than Initiative.

---
Once initiative is rolled you are micro managing specific events in a finite time frame.

Having a window of time places actions in a specific order.

If the Initiative roll is the same for 2, or more, creatures, then you have simultaneous action.
-In the event of a tie, one actor still acts "before" another. Micromanaging the timeline even further.

This means there is a defined sequence of events, in a defined time frame, in a defined situation. That does not sound abstract to me.

---
If a surprised target is unable to act, move, or react on it's turn, how can it use anything but passive Perception to find out where the Assassin is?
--Combat Declared
--Surprise Confirmed/Denied
--Initiative Rolled

If the target is surprised it's already known that the passive Perception failed.
--Target's turn on the Initiative, before the Assassin


How can the target know that there is a threat, and then avoid the threat, without being able to perceive it?
--Assassin's turn on the Initiative, after the target
--Assassin loses Auto-Crit because the target is no longer Surprised.

By the game's own mechanics the answer: Because Initiative.

---
That sounds, to myself and others, like a really poor answer.

[Damon_Tor]

It doesn't happen at the same time, initiative is not an abstraction.

PHB, 189: "The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative." Notice, a round is a 6-second period of time, but a "turn" has no duration, because it is an abstract concept.

[Xetheral]

Again, turns happen simultaneously. It's not "before the Assassin even moves." It all happens at the same time. Narratively, he starts his actions toward the beginning of the 6-second round and finishes them towards the end of the 6 second round. Initiative order is an abstraction.

I think this is the key difference of understanding in this thread: those who don't understand why initiative effects surprise are not wrapping their heads around the idea that a low initiative order does not mean that character is performing his actions after someone ahead of him in the initiative order in terms of the narrative.

While its true that actions theoretically happen simultaneously in a temporal sense, don't forget that they happen sequentially in a causal sense. For example, if PC A dies early in the initiative order, PC B can cast Revivify later in the initiative order, even though they couldn't possibly have started casting Revivify at the beginning of the 6-second round.

This discrepancy between the temporal and causal senses of Initiative can usually just be handwaved away as an unavoidable side-effect of the abstraction. But in edge cases, such as the start of combat in a surprise situation, the discrepancy becomes thornier. Some people are still fine continuing to handwave it away, and are comfortable coming up with in-game explanations. Others (for their own reasons) don't like that option and prefer to create a houserule to avoid the discrepancy in the first place.

I see both perspectives as different preferences rather than as a failure of comprehension.

[DMThac0]

Notice, a round is a 6-second period of time, but a "turn" has no duration, because it is an abstract concept.


For example, if PC A dies early in the initiative order, PC B can cast Revivify later in the initiative order, even though they couldn't possibly have started casting Revivify at the beginning of the 6-second round.

This is where the idea that a turn is an abstraction starts to fall apart. A turn cannot be abstract if there is a necessity to handle cause/effect or Action/Reaction.

A Wizard is attacked, the wizard casts Shield as a reaction. This indicates that there is a time frame, a sequence of events, Action and Reaction.

A character is reduced to 0 HP and another character casts Revivify. If it was simultaneous Revivify would fail because the character wasn't at 0 when the spell was cast.

---

I see both perspectives as different preferences rather than as a failure of comprehension.

I can also understand the perspectives, I just can't agree that it's abstract.

[GooeyChewie]

If you consider the Assassin attacking the moment they declare it, you should be rolling To Hit rather than Initiative.
This mentality is the exact reason I switched to using the Surprised condition rules as written. I had a player who figured as long as he declared his intent to attack enemies first, he’d get to make that attack before initiative being rolled. Sometimes he would even argue that he should get to attack prior to initiative AND get a surprise round. Finally I told the party that we were going to try the rules as written version, and he became much less prone to stab potential enemies (who on at least one occasion turned out to be key ally NPCs) on sight.

Having played both ways, I’m never going back to surprise rounds.


If a surprised target is unable to act, move, or react on it's turn, how can it use anything but passive Perception to find out where the Assassin is?

As has been said multiple times in this thread, losing the Surprised condition does NOT allow the enemy to know where the Assassin is. It *might* give the enemy the opportunity to make an active Perception check on their next turn, if the Assassin doesn’t do anything.


How can the target know that there is a threat, and then avoid the threat, without being able to perceive it?

Avoid? No, if the Assassin goes through with the attack it’ll still be at advantage and a Sneak Attack. If the enemy wins initiative, it means they were quick and/or lucky enough to “only” get major organs punctured instead of critical ones. (Or insert appropriate corollary for however your table handles the abstraction of hit points.)

The only way losing Surprise leads to avoiding the attack entirely is if the enemy has some reaction that can make the attack miss, like the Shield spell. Such reactions are already split-second decisions, so Surprise in this case determines if the enemy is quick and/or lucky enough to get the reaction off when they feel the sharp point of the Assassin’s steel upon their flesh.

[ad_hoc]

Auto crit on surprise and winning initiative isn't the main ability.

Advantage on winning initiative is the main ability of the subclass. It lets the assassin be an assassin even without surprise.

[DMThac0]

As has been said multiple times in this thread, losing the Surprised condition does NOT allow the enemy to know where the Assassin is.

I understand, which is why I laid out the questions the way I did.


It *might* give the enemy the opportunity to make an active Perception check on their next turn, if the Assassin doesn’t do anything.

That is true as well, but does not address the next question.


If the enemy wins initiative, it means they were quick and/or lucky enough to “only” get major organs punctured instead of critical ones.

So the target hasn't moved, hasn't taken any actions, but they aren't struck in a critical organ.
That means the trained assassin missed their target, since we're also saying that the target did not avoid the attack.
They are Quick/Lucky enough to not receive critical damage.
This sounds like contested AC vs To Hit rather than Surprised or not Surprised.



The only way losing Surprise leads to avoiding the attack entirely is if the enemy has some reaction that can make the attack miss, like the Shield spell. Such reactions are already split-second decisions, so Surprise in this case determines if the enemy is quick and/or lucky enough to get the reaction off when they feel the sharp point of the Assassin’s steel upon their flesh.

This part I can agree with completely, reactions after the Surprised condition has been removed could cause the attack to fail.

[Snails]

Again, turns happen simultaneously. It's not "before the Assassin even moves." It all happens at the same time. Narratively, he starts his actions toward the beginning of the 6-second round and finishes them towards the end of the 6 second round. Initiative order is an abstraction.

I think this is the key difference of understanding in this thread: those who don't understand why initiative effects surprise are not wrapping their heads around the idea that a low initiative order does not mean that character is performing his actions after someone ahead of him in the initiative order in terms of the narrative.

Initiative order is an abstraction that governs cause and effect. It at the heart of all the combat mechanics.

It is perfectly possible to have a combat system where all actions really do take place simultaneously. In such a system, two combatants killing each other at the same time is not rare. Personally, I would find that kind of thing a blast to play. The downside is such a system tends to be harder on the players and much harder on the DM, at least when trying to reason about actions more complex than shoveling DPR.

D&D chose to make its narrative and causal logic work in lockstep, because that is the simplest path for the kind of game most people want to play. It has the useful property of cause and effect being comprehensible to the players, at the moment they are asked to make a decision.

In the most common scenarios, two groups are just rushing headlong at each to murderize as quickly as possible, and the Initiative and Surprise rules work well enough.

However, there are non-rare scenarios where there are chokepoints in the cause and effect, specifically when one individual has the means and motivation to control the precise moment combat begins. While that does not necessarily mean the RAW is wrong, it does raise questions that are not answered that are important tactically, e.g. whether someone knows whether they are in combat at all, e.g does someone know where they or another person falls in the Initiative order, e.g. if things look inauspicious, can you chose to not begin combat and try again later.

There are many ways to deal with this incompleteness. I find post hoc rationalization, as many have endorsed, not persuasive, both because it appears to violate cause and effect, and because it does not help answer any questions about how the player can grasp the situation and make tactically meaningful decisions.

[Damon_Tor]

While its true that actions theoretically happen simultaneously in a temporal sense, don't forget that they happen sequentially in a causal sense. For example, if PC A dies early in the initiative order, PC B can cast Revivify later in the initiative order, even though they couldn't possibly have started casting Revivify at the beginning of the 6-second round.

If it's a problem that bothers you, the solution is to make the turn system more granular: each round is 1 second, not 6. Standard movement speed is 5 feet. A "one action" spell takes 6 turns to cast.

Of course, that sounds awful.

[Xetheral]

If it's a problem that bothers you, the solution is to make the turn system more granular: each round is 1 second, not 6. Standard movement speed is 5 feet. A "one action" spell takes 6 turns to cast.

Of course, that sounds awful.

Such a drastic change isn't required. A simple houserule (many examples of which have been suggested in this thread) suffices.

[greenstone]

…the initiative score decides in what order will the respective actions be resolved.
That's a key point. The initiative rules make more sense when you relaise that the initiative score is not "when you start your action"; it is "when you resolve your action."

Wierdness is always going to happen when translating realtime stuff into a turn-based game.

If the players are miffed at the rogue not getting assassinate then turn it around. Ask them how they would feel if an NPC assassin sneaks up on their camp and shoots one of their characters to death before initiative is rolled?

[AHF]

That's a key point. The initiative rules make more sense when you relaise that the initiative score is not "when you start your action"; it is "when you resolve your action."

Wierdness is always going to happen when translating realtime stuff into a turn-based game.

If the players are miffed at the rogue not getting assassinate then turn it around. Ask them how they would feel if an NPC assassin sneaks up on their camp and shoots one of their characters to death before initiative is rolled?

I agree completely. There are 100% things that don’t make narrative sense in a real world context. You have two players with melee weapons 20 feet apart. In a situation where both players are aware of each other, Player A wants to stab Player B while player B just wants to dash away. In real life, they would both start running at roughly the same time and Player A would never catch Player B if they have the same movement speed. But in game, Player B doesn’t move one inch from his spot before Player A has traversed the full 20 feet and made his attack.

It makes the same “logical” sense for people trying to give a real world narrative of the problems raised on this thread. But the game sets forth clear mechanics and so it is clearly resolved in a cause and effect, turn based system. That same system requires an Assassin to win initiative not to sneak attack but to autocrit. And this is actually much easier to explain in a real world way than the movement example above as the victim presumably somehow becomes away of some aspect of the attack which is why he is no longer surprised when the attack is made. Noise, visual clues, an intuitive sense, etc. there are a million narrative reasons that could be given.

For story telling purposes, we do our best to resolve these turn based issues with real life analogs but they inherently conflict until you are willing to hand waive them away. That is the abstraction - concerting game, turn based mechanics into a narrative.

For me it just comes back to each table needing to decide if they think the subclass if broken and a houserule is needed just like if they believe paladins should always get advantage on smites. It contradicts the rules and your mileage may vary but 5E is expressly set up to allow DMs to make those decisions with their players. (And this suggestion is more reasonable for game balance than buffs to a paladin).

[Segev]

I agree completely. There are 100% things that don’t make narrative sense in a real world context. You have two players with melee weapons 20 feet apart. In a situation where both players are aware of each other, Player A wants to stab Player B while player B just wants to dash away. In real life, they would both start running at roughly the same time and Player A would never catch Player B if they have the same movement speed. But in game, Player B doesn’t move one inch from his spot before Player A has traversed the full 20 feet and made his attack.

My assumption is that the initiative winner and the initiative loser both started running at almost the same time, but the initiative winner both started first and ran just that much faster before the initiative loser managed to pick up speed. So while in-game, if they both just keep running (and attacking, if they wish), they're engaged in a running battle with the attacker constantly cutting at him.

Of course, the game mechanics provide an "out" for this: sure, the attacker won initiative and got off AN attack as he closed distance before the runner could get up to speed, but the runner can take the Dash action to double his speed. The attacker will then have to either dash OR attack, and thus will lose ground if he's attacking. And not be able to attack at all except from range. (Barring the attacker having a means of dashing as a bonus action or something, and the runner lacking such means.)

[AHF]

My assumption is that the initiative winner and the initiative loser both started running at almost the same time, but the initiative winner both started first and ran just that much faster before the initiative loser managed to pick up speed. So while in-game, if they both just keep running (and attacking, if they wish), they're engaged in a running battle with the attacker constantly cutting at him.

Of course, the game mechanics provide an "out" for this: sure, the attacker won initiative and got off AN attack as he closed distance before the runner could get up to speed, but the runner can take the Dash action to double his speed. The attacker will then have to either dash OR attack, and thus will lose ground if he's attacking. And not be able to attack at all except from range. (Barring the attacker having a means of dashing as a bonus action or something, and the runner lacking such means.)

I think you are approaching it perfectly and that is a fine way to rationalize it but there comes a point where hand waiving and accepting a narrative regardless of realism is required. Player A could be a halfling with 25 movement / 50 dash speed and Player B could be a Barbarian/Rogue with mobile feat with a 50 foot base speed and capable of going 150 feet per round with dash and cunning action. Make Player B hasted as well if you want. It doesn’t matter. They could start 24 feet apart and Player A would still catch up with Player B. Which then requires a new narrative to justify something that objectively doesn’t make sense in a real world scenario but works perfectly in a turn based system.

You play the game’s mechanics and then put the best story wrap around it you can. You don’t change the mechanics every time they are hard to square with what would happen in live action real life. So I’m good with people deciding simply to make the Assassin subclass better by houserule but find it much less persuasive to build a case around problems from squaring turn based mechanics with real time, real world scenarios. You’ll never run out of examples of things that just wouldn’t work in real life.

[Segev]

I think you are approaching it perfectly and that is a fine way to rationalize it but there comes a point where hand waiving and accepting a narrative regardless of realism is required. Player A could be a halfling with 25 movement / 50 dash speed and Player B could be a Barbarian/Rogue with mobile feat with a 50 foot base speed and capable of going 150 feet per round with dash and cunning action. Make Player B hasted as well if you want. It doesn’t matter. They could start 24 feet apart and Player A would still catch up with Player B. Which then requires a new narrative to justify something that objectively doesn’t make sense in a real world scenario but works perfectly in a turn based system.

You play the game’s mechanics and then put the best story wrap around it you can. You don’t change the mechanics every time they are hard to square with what would happen in live action real life. So I’m good with people deciding simply to make the Assassin subclass better by houserule but find it much less persuasive to build a case around problems from squaring turn based mechanics with real time, real world scenarios. You’ll never run out of examples of things that just wouldn’t work in real life.

To me, it works just fine, because of what initiative does represent: reaction speed in this instance. If the super-speedy barbarian loses initiative, then he was caught off-guard by the halfling's sudden charge. By the time he realizes what's happening and starts moving, it's too late to get out of the halfling's reach for at least one attack.

[AHF]

To me, it works just fine, because of what initiative does represent: reaction speed in this instance. If the super-speedy barbarian loses initiative, then he was caught off-guard by the halfling's sudden charge. By the time he realizes what's happening and starts moving, it's too late to get out of the halfling's reach for at least one attack.

This sounds like an argument for the Monty Python charge by Sir Lancelot on the castle being realistic. Guards just keep eating their apple while he charges away over and over and suddenly he’s on them and they are unable to react in time to avoid one of them being skewered.

That is like the example above. No surprise. Both parties armed and ready to act. Halfling wins initiative by a single point. Then the base 25 foot speed halfling charges for 24 feet before the character who can move between 3 and 6 times as fast can move two feet. Describing it as a reaction time issue is a hand wave. That hardly makes it unique or inappropriate and I think that is a fine way to handle the narrative but it doesn’t align with any kind of effort to tie out to real life, real time reality where the parties are all acting simultaneously over 6 seconds.

[Segev]

This sounds like an argument for the Monty Python charge by Sir Lancelot on the castle being realistic. Guards just keep eating their apple while he charges away over and over and suddenly he’s on them and they are unable to react in time to avoid one of them being skewered.

That is like the example above. No surprise. Both parties armed and ready to act. Halfling wins initiative by a single point. Then the base 25 foot speed halfling charges for 24 feet before the character who can move between 3 and 6 times as fast can move two feet. Describing it as a reaction time issue is a hand wave. That hardly makes it unique or inappropriate and I think that is a fine way to handle the narrative but it doesn’t align with any kind of effort to tie out to real life, real time reality where the parties are all acting simultaneously over 6 seconds.

The Monty Python skit is on a time scale that doesn't at all allow for "surprise" or "slow reaction" to matter. That would require "NOT NOTICING" as opposed to "woah wait wha!?"

We're talking 6 seconds or less, here. Bob the Barbarian speedster rolled worse init, so AT MOST Ray the Rogue started running from 25 feet away 6 seconds before Bob reacted.

In practice, Bob probably reacted within a second or two, but having lost initiative, he did so disorganizedly and with poor situational awareness, so his actual attempt to start running was sluggish in its acceleration and balance, and Ray was already at top speed by the time Bob got himself to turn and start moving. Bob's acceleration is slow enough due to this delay that Ray closed the distance and got off an attack before Bob managed to actually pull away. But then Bob DID pull away.

[patchyman]

Its certainly nowhere near as powerful as many people seem to think it is, given how difficult Surprise can be to achieve, without some exceptional efforts or resource expenditure.

How is surprise difficult to achieve? If you are planning to play an Assassin, you took Expertise in Stealth, which means even at 3rd level, you are at a +7 to Stealth.

[DMThac0]

How is surprise difficult to achieve? If you are planning to play an Assassin, you took Expertise in Stealth, which means even at 3rd level, you are at a +7 to Stealth.
The Assassin's Stealth is not the only factor in Surprise.

Your Stealth must first beat the passive Perception of all the creatures you're sneaking up on.

Then, if your party is within sight of the creatures, all of their Stealth rolls must beat all of the passive Perceptions of the creatures you're sneaking up on.

If any of those conditions are not met, even one creature sees one party member, Surprise is not granted.

Then, if Surprise is granted, the Assassin must go before their intended target otherwise the creature they intend to attack is no longer Surprised.

There is more working against the Assassinate ability than there is helping it.

[patchyman]

Meh, just go with a Surprise Round instead of a Surprise Condition, with everyone who fails a perception check or lacks Alert remaining Surprised until the round ends, and it essentially fixes all the complaints.

Suddenly a poor roll on either side won't matter, Surprise becomes easier to use, and it allows more abilities to be used.

I agree with Segev and GoeeyChewie as to what RAW is, but at my table, we play with a variation of what you wrote.

Initiative is only rolled when combat is triggered, but combat is only triggered when the other side is aware of you, so initiative is only rolled after someone makes the first attack.

On the other hand, the rest of the party can’t ready actions for after the first attack, because they don’t have initiative, since combat hasn’t been initiated.

[patchyman]

If the players are miffed at the rogue not getting assassinate then turn it around. Ask them how they would feel if an NPC assassin sneaks up on their camp and shoots one of their characters to death before initiative is rolled?

What bugs me about this thread is that the Assassins do still get to assassinate. Pretty early on, even if they don’t take Alert, Assassins have at least a +4 to initiative.

My experience playing an Assassin (without Alert) was that even if I didn’t roll super well on Initiative, in most cases I rolled better than at least one monster, so I still got to Assassinate, though not necessarily against the leader.

[Segev]

The Assassin's Stealth is not the only factor in Surprise.

Your Stealth must first beat the passive Perception of all the creatures you're sneaking up on.

Then, if your party is within sight of the creatures, all of their Stealth rolls must beat all of the passive Perceptions of the creatures you're sneaking up on.

If any of those conditions are not met, even one creature sees one party member, Surprise is not granted.

Then, if Surprise is granted, the Assassin must go before their intended target otherwise the creature they intend to attack is no longer Surprised.

There is more working against the Assassinate ability than there is helping it.I don't think you need to beat all enemies. Just pick your assassinate target out of those not beaten. Surprise isn't granted for whole-party awareness. Each creature who doesn't detect any of the assassin's party is Surprised in the first round. So, yes, you ARE dependent on none of your fellow party members being detected by your target, but you're not dependent on your target's whole group failing to detect any of you.

[DMThac0]

I don't think you need to beat all enemies. Just pick your assassinate target out of those not beaten. Surprise isn't granted for whole-party awareness. Each creature who doesn't detect any of the assassin's party is Surprised in the first round. So, yes, you ARE dependent on none of your fellow party members being detected by your target, but you're not dependent on your target's whole group failing to detect any of you.

You're correct, I was a little broad in my explanation.

However, it still hamstrings the Assassinate ability if the target they want to hit sees any of the party. They're forced to choose a different creature which is Surprised rather than the target they need to take out tactically.

[patchyman]

The Assassin's Stealth is not the only factor in Surprise.

Your Stealth must first beat the passive Perception of all the creatures you're sneaking up on.

Then, if your party is within sight of the creatures, all of their Stealth rolls must beat all of the passive Perceptions of the creatures you're sneaking up on.

If any of those conditions are not met, even one creature sees one party member, Surprise is not granted.

Then, if Surprise is granted, the Assassin must go before their intended target otherwise the creature they intend to attack is no longer Surprised.

There is more working against the Assassinate ability than there is helping it.

If your party is anywhere near you when you are trying to use Assassinate, then yes, you are going to be less successful at using your Assassinate feature. To me, this is the rules working as intended (ie common sense).

Your Assassin should be ahead of the party, scouting, using his ridiculous high Stealth to avoid detection. Even on a bad roll, you are beating the passive Perception of most creatures. Let’s say you stumble upon a group of creatures. Even if some of them have a higher Passive Perception (because you rolled very poorly), you still surprised the others.

As long as one surprised creature rolled a lower initiative than you did (which is extremely likely with your high Dex), you get your auto-crit.

Then you run like hell.

[DMThac0]

If your party is anywhere near you when you are trying to use Assassinate, then yes, you are going to be less successful at using your Assassinate feature. To me, this is the rules working as intended (ie common sense).

Your Assassin should be ahead of the party, scouting, using his ridiculous high Stealth to avoid detection. Even on a bad roll, you are beating the passive Perception of most creatures. Let’s say you stumble upon a group of creatures. Even if some of them have a higher Passive Perception (because you rolled very poorly), you still surprised the others.

As long as one surprised creature rolled a lower initiative than you did (which is extremely likely with your high Dex), you get your auto-crit.

Then you run like hell.

I had this conversation on another board. That is tactically, and strategically, harmful to the Assassin and party:

Visibility, in a situation that benefits the Assassin, can be assumed to reach 60 feet. Darkvision, on average, is 60 ft.

So the Assassin's party would need to be beyond that range to ensure that the party couldn't be seen. With the party at 61 ft, the Assassin is guaranteed to spend 1 entire round without any backup. The party can't help him until they enter combat, If they enter combat at the same time as the Assassin they could ruin the Assassinate attempt.

Otherwise the only way an Assassin is able to use the ability, with any regularity, is to use ranged weapons. Assuming the party is 30 ft behind the Assassin, the Assassin is using a Longbow, and the Assassin attacks from beyond Darkvision range, the party would be 91 feet away, giving the enemy advanced notice of an oncoming attack.

[Segev]

Don't assassins still get the base rogue ability to Dash or Hide as a bonus action? Sneak in, make the assassination attack, then hide or dash to safety. You're not Engaged with anybody unless they Engaged you, so Dashing away is pretty safe since the only guy you hit can't take reactions until his surprise wears off.

Either way, your party then comes in from out of darkvision range and things close up from there.


You're correct, I was a little broad in my explanation.

However, it still hamstrings the Assassinate ability if the target they want to hit sees any of the party. They're forced to choose a different creature which is Surprised rather than the target they need to take out tactically.
C'est la guerre. You're still doing massive damage to one target, likely removing it from the fight before it gets to act (and bringing it close to "down" even if not). It may not be the "perfect" choice from the group, but it's not useless. Taking out the "perfect" choice may even be a fight-ender before it begins, depending, so having the Assassinate ability have secondary success options (e.g. taking out the sub-optimal target) is a good thing.

[ad_hoc]

If your party is anywhere near you when you are trying to use Assassinate, then yes, you are going to be less successful at using your Assassinate feature. To me, this is the rules working as intended (ie common sense).

Your Assassin should be ahead of the party, scouting, using his ridiculous high Stealth to avoid detection. Even on a bad roll, you are beating the passive Perception of most creatures. Let’s say you stumble upon a group of creatures. Even if some of them have a higher Passive Perception (because you rolled very poorly), you still surprised the others.

As long as one surprised creature rolled a lower initiative than you did (which is extremely likely with your high Dex), you get your auto-crit.

Then you run like hell.

Then all you have is a dead assassin.

That's why the major part of their ability doesn't require surprise. Because it's just not going to happen very often. It's a group game. If the assassin wants to play on their own then they're as good as dead.

[patchyman]

I had this conversation on another board. That is tactically, and strategically, harmful to the Assassin and party:

[...]

So the Assassin's party would need to be beyond that range to ensure that the party couldn't be seen. With the party at 61 ft, the Assassin is guaranteed to spend 1 entire round without any backup. The party can't help him until they enter combat, If they enter combat at the same time as the Assassin they could ruin the Assassinate attempt.

It is a high risk, high reward play style. That is pretty much what their abilities are geared towards.

Personally, it is why I enjoyed playing a Rogue. If you want to use your abilities to their best extent, you have to make the effort to set them up.

Otherwise, there are alternatives, such as picking up the Alert feat.

[DMThac0]

Don't assassins still get the base rogue ability to Dash or Hide as a bonus action? Sneak in, make the assassination attack, then hide or dash to safety. You're not Engaged with anybody unless they Engaged you, so Dashing away is pretty safe since the only guy you hit can't take reactions until his surprise wears off.

Either way, your party then comes in from out of darkvision range and things close up from there.

Oh yea, there are things you can do to try to mitigate the situation, Rogues do have good mobility.

60ft away is 2 rounds of movement or 1 round of move + dash (action/bonus). Other than a couple classes, this would keep the rest of the party out of combat for, up to, 2 rounds. The Rogue could potentially slink away or remain hidden while the party advances. If there was only one enemy, it's a great success, if there is a group, then the party is walking into a fight late and their enemies can ready a counter offensive. It's much more risk involved than the entire party trying to sneak up and engage in combat as a whole.

[patchyman]

Then all you have is a dead assassin.


Any reasoning to back that up? My rogue shot enemies from the edge of short range with a light crossbow, then had full movement plus bonus action dash (or bonus action hide) to get away.

One time I almost got downed before I remembered that Uncanny Dodge refreshes at the beginning of your turn.

Like I said: high risk, high reward.

[sithlordnergal]

Any reasoning to back that up? My rogue shot enemies from the edge of short range with a light crossbow, then had full movement plus bonus action dash (or bonus action hide) to get away.

One time I almost got downed before I remembered that Uncanny Dodge refreshes at the beginning of your turn.

Like I said: high risk, high reward.

I'm surprised you had enough room in most of your combat encounters to use that regularly. Most of my encounters happen with about 60 to 70 feet at most. Going beyond that puts you outside of combat, and you can no longer affect combatants. My general rule is that it takes your Dash action and full movement to return to combat.

EDIT: I've also found that most parties who do split up to scout tend to lose their scout to traps, beholders, undead, ect.

[patchyman]

I'm surprised you had enough room in most of your combat encounters to use that regularly. Most of my encounters happen with about 60 to 70 feet at most. Going beyond that puts you outside of combat, and you can no longer affect combatants. My general rule is that it takes your Dash action and full movement to return to combat.

The memorable occasions were in urban encounters or in dungeons, ie in cases where it makes sense to scout ahead.

[sithlordnergal]

The memorable occasions were in urban encounters or in dungeons, ie in cases where it makes sense to scout ahead.

Urban I can see...surprised that you left the party in a dungeon crawl. The last times we tried that the Scout was killed/screwed over multiple times. We were in the Tomb of the Nine Gods from ToA, which had plenty of instant kill and instant screw you over traps

[Tanarii]

How is surprise difficult to achieve? If you are planning to play an Assassin, you took Expertise in Stealth, which means even at 3rd level, you are at a +7 to Stealth.
Others have covered it fairly well, but it boils down to you have to either be with a high stealth party or operate as a 'seperate group'. The latter depends on DM judgement, and trust me being within 60ft is a lenient DM. And even at 60ft separation, you run risks of defeat in detail by doing so, and of course launching your attack early and solo gives the enemy a chance to react before your party can enter the combat. And when they get to enter combat is also DM judgement, nothing says they get to roll init immediately in that situation.

Another passable tactic, if you think the enemy will fall for it and they can't just pincushion you with ranged attacks, is hit and run, pulling them back to the party.

But all this falls under arguably 'difficult to achieve' and definitely 'exceptional efforts'. Not impossible. Just more difficult than most players assume.

I make my DM rulings fairly lenient to allow Assassins and other stealthy characters to operate the way you describe, as scouting ambushers nearby the party but with a round or two distance in between, when they know where the enemy is in advance. But that's because I'm nice, and because I like my player to scout, make a plan of attack, and give the players the option of risking somewhat splitting the party. Of course, even so it sometimes backfires.

[patchyman]

Another passable tactic, if you think the enemy will fall for it and they can't just pincushion you with ranged attacks, is hit and run, pulling them back to the party.

But all this falls under arguably 'difficult to achieve' and definitely 'exceptional efforts'. Not impossible. Just more difficult than most players assume.

I make my DM rulings fairly lenient to allow Assassins and other stealthy characters to operate the way you describe, as scouting ambushers nearby the party but with a round or two distance in between, when they know where the enemy is in advance. But that's because I'm nice, and because I like my player to scout, make a plan of attack, and give the players the option of risking somewhat splitting the party. Of course, even so it sometimes backfires.

Fair enough. My example was when I played an Assassin. As a DM, I also try to encourage situations where the players split the party because my experience has been that players tend to default to the opposite, even in situations that are comically unrealistic (OK, you’ve just arrived in Waterdeep, Jim, you wanted to go to your temple and Sarah, you wanted to visit the thieves’ guild... “WE AREN’T SPLITTING THE PARTY!)

[patchyman]

Urban I can see...surprised that you left the party in a dungeon crawl. The last times we tried that the Scout was killed/screwed over multiple times. We were in the Tomb of the Nine Gods from ToA, which had plenty of instant kill and instant screw you over traps

These were less “ancient tombs and temples” that you would assume were crawling with traps and more “monster hideouts and cave complexes” where the principal danger were monsters.

Several things work to a rogue’s advantage in those cases: grids make it easy to know how far help is, room structure can make it easier to get total cover from ranged attacks after your assassination attempt, and it is pretty easy to gauge if you are close enough that your team will hear you if you start screaming.

I also think there is a sweet spot for this tactic. We played levels 1-10, where instant death traps are less of a concern, and you are unlikely to simply run into a beholder.