Can Sorcerers Learn Anything From Wizards?

[Palanan]

I wouldn’t think they could, since wizards develop magic through study and independent research, while sorcerers derive their powers from bloodlines and etc.

That said, is there any game mechanic through which a sorcerer could acquire spell knowledge from a wizard?

[Blackhawk748]

I wouldn’t think they could, since wizards develop magic through study and independent research, while sorcerers derive their powers from bloodlines and etc.

That said, is there any game mechanic through which a sorcerer could acquire spell knowledge from a wizard?

Abusing the wording of Versatile spell to use Sorcerer slots to cast anything out of their spellbook?

Beyond that Sorcerers are more than just bloodlines, they are, in effect, Magical geniuses doing advanced math in their head, while the Wizard had to study a ton. So im sure they could, its just a matter of how much

[Psyren]

Fluffwise, sure. The means by which sorcerers devise new spells is extremely vague, and you could go with anything from all their spells are set at birth by their blood (like the bloodline ones are), to seeing certain magic in action gives them ideas, to they can influence what they learn through meditation or various rituals, to its completely random, to any combination of the above.

In terms of game mechanics, for ease of play you simply pick the spells you want. This is unlikely how easily it works for all sorcerers in-universe, but the PCs are special anyways so it can be that way for 100% of that group.

[Hiro Quester]

We play in a game world in which all players have to learn their spells. Nobody learns them automatically; not even charismatic casters.

In our game at least, a sorcerer or bard can learn a spell by making a spellcraft check on observing a wizard casting a spell. Or vice versa.

The understanding is different (intuitive, rather than academic), and might involve further practice (or research for a wizard learning from a sorcerer) but the movements and words uttered can be similar, and learned from one another.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
In terms of game mechanics, for ease of play you simply pick the spells you want.

Right, but I’m asking if there are specific game mechanics that would allow sorcerers to learn magic from wizards—either spells, feats, anything they could pick up. I’m guessing there aren’t, but would like to be sure.


Originally Posted by Hiro Quester
We play in a game world in which all players have to learn their spells….

The understanding is different (intuitive, rather than academic), and might involve further practice (or research for a wizard learning from a sorcerer) but the movements and words uttered can be similar, and learned from one another.

Sounds like an interesting approach, and makes sense from an in-world perspective.

.

[Psyren]

Right, but I’m asking if there are specific game mechanics that would allow sorcerers to learn magic from wizards—either spells, feats, anything they could pick up. I’m guessing there aren’t, but would like to be sure.

I'm not aware of anything specific.

[Dalmosh]

The feat Apprentice (spellcaster) would allow a sorcerer to learn magical lore from a wizard translating to a +2 bonus on spellcraft checks, access to a knowledge skill of choice, and for some reason access to the Use Magic Device skill.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I'm not aware of anything specific.

Okay, thanks. I’m thinking of this from two different perspectives: player options and setting design.

From the player perspective, I was wondering if there was a way that a sorcerer could absorb spells from a wizard’s mind and learn them, something like a spellthief but on a permanent basis. I know that as mentioned above, this could be a way to describe the ordinary process of gaining new spells, but I like the idea of being able to siphon spells out of a wizard’s consciousness at will. I’d love to work this up as some sort of feat, or maybe a Pathfinder archetype, but no idea where to start.

From the world-building perspective, I’m designing one principality in my setting that’s ruled by sorcerers, and I’m trying to work out their official stance towards wizards. It probably wouldn’t welcome their presence, but I was wondering if there was some way a sorcerous regime could benefit from having wizards around, either harvesting spell energy or something else faintly nefarious.


Originally Posted by Dalmosh
The feat Apprentice (spellcaster) would allow a sorcerer to learn magical lore from a wizard translating to a +2 bonus on spellcraft checks, access to a knowledge skill of choice, and for some reason access to the Use Magic Device skill.

Interesting, thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

Looks like it also gives spontaneous spellcasters a little more flexibility in terms of spells known.

.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Mage of the Arcane Order is a prestige class all about the benefits you get from sharing spells/knowledge with your colleagues, and while the class is aimed at wizards, sorcerers can enter with that feat that lets them prepare spells. Sorcerers benefiting from sharing spells with wizards, bada bing bada boom. Powerful class, too.

[Grek]

Scrolls!

Sorcerers share the same spell list as wizards, and wizards all get Scribe Spell. So if a sorcerer hires (or forces) a wizard to scribe some scrolls, that sorcerer can read them later to activate the spells just as well as the wizard could. This is a very good way for a sorcerer to get access to spells that are too niche to take as a Spell Known, but are still useful to have as an option. Note that the wizard doesn't need to be able to personally cast the spell in question. If you get a pair of sixth level sorcerers together in a room, a single 1st level wizard can use their Scribe Scroll feat to facilitate the two trading scrolls of their spells known. They might swap a Major Image scroll (provided by a sorcerer who has that as a spell known and who provides the spell slot) for a Fireball scroll (provided by the other sorcerer, who knows Fireball but not Major Image) all without the Wizard personally being able to cast either spell.

All of this is similarly true of wands, staves and potions, but you can't facilitate those through a any old first level wizard - you have to let the wizard develop their own power, which is a dreadful risk to the sorcerous control over the nation.

[Psychoalpha]

We play in a game world in which all players have to learn their spells. Nobody learns them automatically; not even charismatic casters.

In our game at least, a sorcerer or bard can learn a spell by making a spellcraft check on observing a wizard casting a spell. Or vice versa.

The understanding is different (intuitive, rather than academic), and might involve further practice (or research for a wizard learning from a sorcerer) but the movements and words uttered can be similar, and learned from one another.

...wouldn't that mean that no Sorcerer has ever been able to learn a spell that wasn't first created by a Wizard?

Not being limited by on hand resources to decide their spell access is one of the few real benefits of being a Sorcerer over a Wizard. Taking that way from them just seems cruel and unusual.

[Dalmosh]

From the world-building perspective, I’m designing one principality in my setting that’s ruled by sorcerers, and I’m trying to work out their official stance towards wizards. It probably wouldn’t welcome their presence, but I was wondering if there was some way a sorcerous regime could benefit from having wizards around, either harvesting spell energy or something else faintly nefarious.

Low level wizards with carefully policed spellbooks could be Scribe Scroll monkeys. You could even intelligence drain them to restrict them to the spell level you wish.

Edit. Ninja'd
Though I was more thinking of the safer option of just spamming spells the sorcerers already know on a production line.

[Psyren]

From the player perspective, I was wondering if there was a way that a sorcerer could absorb spells from a wizard’s mind and learn them, something like a spellthief but on a permanent basis. I know that as mentioned above, this could be a way to describe the ordinary process of gaining new spells, but I like the idea of being able to siphon spells out of a wizard’s consciousness at will. I’d love to work this up as some sort of feat, or maybe a Pathfinder archetype, but no idea where to start.

Sha'irs (Dragon Compendium) have a mechanic like this - they "learn" new spells by seeing them performed. They aren't sorcerers, but are Cha-based.



From the world-building perspective, I’m designing one principality in my setting that’s ruled by sorcerers, and I’m trying to work out their official stance towards wizards. It probably wouldn’t welcome their presence, but I was wondering if there was some way a sorcerous regime could benefit from having wizards around, either harvesting spell energy or something else faintly nefarious.

Why would they care though? Honest question. Wizards are nerds/eggheads, and are unlikely to have the force of personality to really take the forefront in such a society anyway; they'd likely be content in an advisory or research role. Those who do have both brains and confidence will probably end up becoming Arcanists/Ultimate Magi.

[Mato]

Q: Can Sorcerers Learn Anything From Wizards?
A: You mean outside of fluff, teamwork bonuses, flanking, aid other, specific feats (like apprentice), and so on?

Let's flip this question: Can a barbarian learn anything from a barbarian?
Not really. A barbarian cannot give another barbarian new rage skills, increase the other barbarian's speed, strength, damage reduction, hit points, skill points/ranks, attack or damage bonuses, or so on.

Let's flip this question again: Can a bard learn anything from a bard?
Cleric(without anyspell) or druid? Hexblade? Rogue or swashbuckler? Warlock?
But a wizard can bestow onto another wizard a huge list of spells known.

Sounds like a reg flag in game design to me.

[Mordaedil]

Beyond that Sorcerers are more than just bloodlines, they are, in effect, Magical geniuses doing advanced math in their head, while the Wizard had to study a ton.

That is, not fitting or true to the fluff of sorcerers. Magic isn't math, it's bringing external forces into effect, ergo more that their force of prescence demands magic obeys, while wizards study how to call it to obey.

[magic9mushroom]

I wouldn’t think they could, since wizards develop magic through study and independent research, while sorcerers derive their powers from bloodlines and etc.

That said, is there any game mechanic through which a sorcerer could acquire spell knowledge from a wizard?

The only thing I'm aware of that does this mechanically is Ultimate Magus, and in that case the sorcerer and wizard are the same individual (UM allows you to take some of your wizard spells from your spellbook as extra sorcerer spells known).


...wouldn't that mean that no Sorcerer has ever been able to learn a spell that wasn't first created by a Wizard?

Not necessarily - sorcerers can do spell research too, which is the only way to actually create a spell.


Not being limited by on hand resources to decide their spell access is one of the few real benefits of being a Sorcerer over a Wizard. Taking that way from them just seems cruel and unusual.

Wizards get more free spells from levelling than sorcerers get at all (41 + Int + all cantrips vs. 34 + 9 cantrips), and free spells can be chosen just as freely as a Sorcerer's. They get more without working for it, they just also can get a ton more by working for it.

[Dalmosh]

Let's flip this question...
Not especially... but there's probably a number of prestige class prerequisites that fall into this category. You can't, for example, become an Assassin RAW without having an Assassin's Guild induct you formally after you've killed someone for them.

Magic Item creation... kind of... one thing I've never seen broken down in handbooks, which I'm nowhere near patient enough to compile myself, is a list of magic items that can only be made with spells from selective lists - e.g. Druid only items, Cleric with the Fire Domain only items, Bard only items, that only odd outlier classes like Archivist would be able to make as well. Often players don't want to craft themselves, because it takes a lot of time, and the crafting rules aren't very good. Seeking out a high level spellcaster able to make you the class-relevant item you want, can just about be a thing.

That's not going to help Barbarians though...

Warlocks, Hexblades and Swashbucklers generally lack the rules support to gain anything whatsoever from more advanced characters in their class.


Sounds like a reg flag in game design to me.
Well... exactly.
I've found this comes up in my games quite a bit, when people want to seek out some mystic hermit, or lost order, or legendary warrior, but lack mechanical rewards for doing so. Druid PCs in particular seem to want to look for other druids in the world, and I've been at a loss to make completing that kind of quest a satisfying reward, when you can pretty much gain anything they'd teach you by yourself normally anyway by staying home and killing goblins
Players understandably get pretty bummed to receive a lame faux-Yoda addage for their efforts like "The power you seek resided within you all along!"

I think adding a hefty XP bonus for this master tutelage might be the best way to reflect this - letting you level up faster than normal as the reward. Maybe adapting a mechanic a bit like Planar Touchstones would work here.

[Segev]

There is text in the PHB about how sorcerers can learn unique spells or research their own. It is vague as to whether this means they can research unique spells and then choose to learn them when they have an available slot, or that they can actually learn, through a lengthy research-like process, new spells known and thus have more than wizards do.

Later in 3.5's lifecycle, items like runestaves were created which enable sorcerers to cast spells they don't know with their own spell slots. This suggests, but does not guarantee, that the writers eventually came down on the side that sorcerers definitely can't learn more than what it says on their table in the PHB.

If sorcerers are able to increase their spells known by research or study or learning from wizards, then it needs to be significantly more expensive than magic items which equivalently grant such things. And definitely more expensive than a wizard adding spells to his spellbook; that's supposed to be a perk of the wizard's prepped casting over the sorcerer's spontaneous casting. Note: a quest reward or the like of "now you know this extra spell" would be "sufficiently more expensive," because it means that the sorcerer can't just go into town and buy spells the way the wizard can, still.

Having it cost, say, 1800 x (spell level) x (level of the sorcerer learning it), with maybe an x2 or x3 multiplier if it's not natively on the sorcerer's list (if that's possible at all), plus a number of days of dedicated study equal to 1/500 of the gp cost (i.e. 2 days per thousand gp) might be feasible. If it's 3.5, have an XP cost of 2/25 the gp cost, as well. This makes it roughly as expensive as a command-activated magic item of the spell in question's crafting cost. More expensive because it can't be taken away once he knows it.

Note: a command-activated item usable only by a sorcerer that casts a given spell at-will and occupies no slot would be (spell level) x (caster level of the spell from this item) x 2520 gp, market price. You could even have it require any expensive material components be provided.

[Psyren]

Well keep in mind that "devise new spells" does not have to equal "exceed spells known." A sorcerer can do research between levels, and then once the new spell has been sussed out, they can choose it as one of their spells known on level up.

[Segev]

Well keep in mind that "devise new spells" does not have to equal "exceed spells known." A sorcerer can do research between levels, and then once the new spell has been sussed out, they can choose it as one of their spells known on level up.

Right. That was one of the reasons it is ambiguous. I happen to agree, given all the context of 3.5, that what Psyren said here is actually how it's meant to be interpreted. But that doesn't change that it could be read to allow exceeding spells known.

Heck, you could read it such that it lets you learn more spells as soon as you research them, but it doesn't let you exceed spells known as you level up; i.e. that you've "borrowed" one from the future and can't actually learn a new one by means other than this "devise new spells" method until you have fewer spells known than are listed on your chart.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Sha'irs (Dragon Compendium) have a mechanic like this - they "learn" new spells by seeing them performed. They aren't sorcerers, but are Cha-based.

Thanks for reminding me of these—easily one of the most obscure base classes out there. I never could fit my head around them.


Originally Posted by Palanan
…I’m designing one principality in my setting that’s ruled by sorcerers, and I’m trying to work out their official stance towards wizards.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Why would they care though? Honest question. Wizards are nerds/eggheads, and are unlikely to have the force of personality to really take the forefront in such a society anyway; they'd likely be content in an advisory or research role.

I’m certainly no expert on tier comparisons, but my sense is that level for level, wizards are just as strong as sorcerers if not more so. That means competition for power, in terms of its exercise in the political sphere. Campaign settings are littered with power-hungry wizards, and the fact that they research their magic with tomes and formulae makes them no less ambitious.

It makes them a real threat, for those which do have the drive and cunning to pursue worldly power; and those who don’t are still a perceived threat, easily portrayed as The Other, the outsiders who pick apart the fabric of magic thread by thread. In a society which celebrates innate magic, those who have to tinker their way to the same effects are easily vilified.

In such a society, I can’t imagine a wizard would be at all content. Superior skill breeds disdain for the unskilled, and superior intelligence breeds contempt for being ordered about by the less intelligent. This, in turn, breeds suspicion and distrust of wizards, which I could see leading to conflict.


Originally Posted by Psyren
A sorcerer can do research between levels, and then once the new spell has been sussed out, they can choose it as one of their spells known on level up.

This is how I always assumed it worked—that the sorcerer is constantly experimenting, and the new spells chosen at each new level are the result of that continual experimentation.

Said experimentation not to involve books of magical theory, but small acts of imagination and will. That's how I've imagined it to be.

[Psyren]

I’m certainly no expert on tier comparisons, but my sense is that level for level, wizards are just as strong as sorcerers if not more so. That means competition for power, in terms of its exercise in the political sphere. Campaign settings are littered with power-hungry wizards, and the fact that they research their magic with tomes and formulae makes them no less ambitious.

It makes them a real threat, for those which do have the drive and cunning to pursue worldly power; and those who don’t are still a perceived threat, easily portrayed as The Other, the outsiders who pick apart the fabric of magic thread by thread. In a society which celebrates innate magic, those who have to tinker their way to the same effects are easily vilified.

In such a society, I can’t imagine a wizard would be at all content. Superior skill breeds disdain for the unskilled, and superior intelligence breeds contempt for being ordered about by the less intelligent. This, in turn, breeds suspicion and distrust of wizards, which I could see leading to conflict.

1) "Tiers" and "levels" are metagame constructs; in-universe, these characters would have no reliable way of measuring themselves against each other in this way. (I mean, I guess there's that weird Sense Motive thing from Complete Adventurer, but now we're talking about them using a cross-class skill that relies on a dump stat.) More importantly, I don't see why they would distrust wizards any moreso than, say, each other - or clerics and druids for that matter.

2) If a given wizard wants to usurp power in the region for himself, that would make that wizard a threat, not all wizards. And even if the wizard in question is the most GitP Batman to have ever Batmanned, given that his magic already works differently than all of theirs, the smartest thing to do would be to not give them any more reason to gang up against him than they already have.


I imagine instead that he'd have "contempt" for sorcerers the way Vaarsuvius has contempt for other spellcasters, or the way that wizards have looked down on Xykon most of his life - enough to make snarky comments or express pity, but not nearly enough to go to war. (Especially since, as mentioned, he'd be pretty outnumbered.)



This is how I always assumed it worked—that the sorcerer is constantly experimenting, and the new spells chosen at each new level are the result of that continual experimentation.

Said experimentation not to involve books of magical theory, but small acts of imagination and will. That's how I've imagined it to be.

Well, sort of; "small acts of imagination and will" should logically yield spells that are somehow different or more personalized than the standard ones. Yet in spite of that, sorcerers end up with spells that are mechanically identical to the ones that wizards pass around through methodical study. I suppose the fluff might be different though - maybe this one's glitterdust is lambent gold while that one's is an almost ultraviolet glare.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
…in-universe, these characters would have no reliable way of measuring themselves against each other in this way.

Hmm. Power Sight certainly gives you a ballpark estimate of who’s stronger with the Force, so to speak. It doesn’t tell you which class levels are involved, but it does give total HD, which can help with comparisons.

For that matter, if a first-level spell helps you zero in on the value of an item, it doesn’t seem implausible that a mid-level spell could help you suss out what kind of spellcaster you’re facing, and even what loadout they’re running with.


Originally Posted by Pysren
If a given wizard wants to usurp power in the region for himself, that would make that wizard a threat, not all wizards.

Objectively, yes, but people are rarely objective. “If one is a threat, all are a threat” is a fundamental human response to something perceived as dangerous and different.

I’m not saying this is remotely positive, but this is how people are.


Originally Posted by Psyren
…given that his magic already works differently than all of theirs, the smartest thing to do would be to not give them any more reason to gang up against him than they already have.

A very good point indeed.


Originally Posted by Psyren
I imagine instead that he'd have "contempt" for sorcerers the way Vaarsuvius has contempt for other spellcasters, or the way that wizards have looked down on Xykon most of his life….

I’m guessing this is an OotS reference, but I’ve only read a couple of panels here and there.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Yet in spite of that, sorcerers end up with spells that are mechanically identical to the ones that wizards pass around through methodical study.

I think of this as something like fracture planes in the n-dimensional crystal of reality. Spells are often mechanically identical among very different casters because the magic is following the path of least resistance, allowing certain effects to be discovered and reproduced independently by different magical traditions.

[ayvango]

Wizard could offer his spell known through dragonblood spell-pact. A spell is considered known to a wizard when he succeeds spellcraft check DC 15+spell level to learn it.

[Âmesang]

Well keep in mind that "devise new spells" does not have to equal "exceed spells known." A sorcerer can do research between levels, and then once the new spell has been sussed out, they can choose it as one of their spells known on level up.

"For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, providied that it is of the right spell level. The sorcerer can't use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however." — Player's Handbook (revise), p.54

"The number of spells that sorcerers and bards can know is strictly limited; members of those classes can never exceed these limits even through the research of original spells." — DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide, p.198

Just offering a bit of extra detail. :smallsmile: That's how it was handled with my sorceress, taking time to research unique spells after she already learned how to cast spells of the particular level and treating the unique spell as one of her "level up" spells at her earliest opportunity; for example she learned her first 5th-level spell at 10th-level, spent time and money researching a unique 5th-level spell, and chose it as her next 5th-level spell upon reaching 11th level.

Bit of a side note, I really liked Mage of the Arcane Order/"Guildmage of Greyhawk" for giving her a "wizardly feel," playing her off as a sorceress who augmented her natural abilities by studying as a wizard might, unifying the two concepts together in a way alternative to Ultimate Magus; somewhat similar to a Netherese arcanist or at least a wizard who took Spell Mastery multiple times.

[Psyren]

"For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, providied that it is of the right spell level. The sorcerer can't use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however." — Player's Handbook (revise), p.54

"The number of spells that sorcerers and bards can know is strictly limited; members of those classes can never exceed these limits even through the research of original spells." — DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide, p.198

Just offering a bit of extra detail. :smallsmile: That's how it was handled with my sorceress, taking time to research unique spells after she already learned how to cast spells of the particular level and treating the unique spell as one of her "level up" spells at her earliest opportunity; for example she learned her first 5th-level spell at 10th-level, spent time and money researching a unique 5th-level spell, and chose it as her next 5th-level spell upon reaching 11th level.

Thanks a ton - I knew these limitations on spontaneous caster spell research were enshrined in the rules somewhere, but I couldn't remember exactly where.


Hmm. Power Sight certainly gives you a ballpark estimate of who’s stronger with the Force, so to speak. It doesn’t tell you which class levels are involved, but it does give total HD, which can help with comparisons.

I'm not sure a 3.0 Druid spell is really germane to this discussion though.

Arcane Sight does let you know the highest spell level a target has available to cast if you're really looking for a scouter, but that's not necessarily reliable too, and moreover it can be fooled. (Probably a common tactic in such a mageocracy.)


Objectively, yes, but people are rarely objective. “If one is a threat, all are a threat” is a fundamental human response to something perceived as dangerous and different.

I’m not saying this is remotely positive, but this is how people are.

The only thing "people are" consistently is inconsistent. Again, some sorcerers will think this way, but all of them?



I think of this as something like fracture planes in the n-dimensional crystal of reality. Spells are often mechanically identical among very different casters because the magic is following the path of least resistance, allowing certain effects to be discovered and reproduced independently by different magical traditions.

Sure, that's as good an explanation as any.

[thorr-kan]

Mage of the Arcane Order/"Guildmage of Greyhawk"
Mage of the Arcane Order is tied to one of my favorite 2E supplements.

Is Guildmage of Greyhawk actually listed anywhere as a separate prestige class?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ayvango
Wizard could offer his spell known through dragonblood spell-pact.

Very interesting, thanks. An extremely niche option, but good to know about.


Originally Posted by Psyren
I'm not sure a 3.0 Druid spell is really germane to this discussion though.

No reason why a sorcerer couldn’t research and duplicate this effect.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Again, some sorcerers will think this way, but all of them?

If they’re organized into a political unit determined to protect their grip on power, then yes, I think they would.

And I stand by my statement about people more often viewing perceived threats with paranoia rather than broad-minded tolerance.

For a neutral example, snakes. I love snakes, but I’m an outlier in that regard. Most people hate snakes, and most people will kill snakes on sight, without regard for whether or not they’re actually venomous. Sadly, I’ve seen completely harmless snakes suffer this fate, and unfortunately this is how most people treat snakes around the world.

This by way of example of how humans tend to react to potential threats, with suspicion and a lack of rational consideration.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Arcane Sight does let you know the highest spell level a target has available to cast if you're really looking for a scouter, but that's not necessarily reliable too, and moreover it can be fooled.

Good reminder about this one. I would expect items of Arcane Sight would be de rigeur among the ruling class.

[Psyren]

No reason why a sorcerer couldn’t research and duplicate this effect.

I mean, once you've got custom magic on the line anything goes. Why stop there when they can research "all spellbooks in a 500 mile radius become gibberish and therefore wizards are a non-threat" or something similar instead?



Most people hate snakes, and most people will kill snakes on sight, without regard for whether or not they’re actually venomous. Sadly, I’ve seen completely harmless snakes suffer this fate, and unfortunately this is how most people treat snakes around the world.

Uh... putting aside that the plural of anecdote is not data, wizards presumably are human(oid)s who can be conversed and reasoned with, not predators with a reputation of being venomous that can only be avoided or diverted, so this analogy rings hollow at best.



Good reminder about this one. I would expect items of Arcane Sight would be de rigeur among the ruling class.

As would Nondetection/Greater Magic Aura in any sort of intrigue setting - both of which come online right when Arcane Sight does and last all day long.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
…so this analogy rings hollow at best.

This was provided as a good-faith example to illustrate my point. I have no idea how “data” would convey that point any better, or even what you’re considering as “data.”

I am honestly not sure why the snake example seems to offend you so much.


Originally Posted by Psyren
…wizards presumably are human(oid)s who can be conversed and reasoned with….

It’s clear we’re approaching this from utterly different perspectives, and different life experiences, so no need to hash over this further.

[Psyren]

This was provided as a good-faith example to illustrate my point. I have no idea how “data” would convey that point any better, or even what you’re considering as “data.”

I am honestly not sure why the snake example seems to offend you so much.

It didn't offend me :smallsmile: My comment was meant to illustrate two things:

1) You haven't cited any sources for the assertion "most people hate snakes and will kill them on sight."
2) Comparing snakes (or any other animal/pest) to sapient humanoid wizards doesn't really work, even to the most prejudiced sorcerer that ever existed.




It’s clear we’re approaching this from utterly different perspectives, and different life experiences, so no need to hash over this further.

If that's what you want sure, but I'd question a setting that equates sapients with animals so cavalierly. I doubt any other D&D setting considers wizards in this way, so it just seems to be a very odd design choice here.

[Âmesang]

Mage of the Arcane Order is tied to one of my favorite 2E supplements.

Is Guildmage of Greyhawk actually listed anywhere as a separate prestige class?
Nah, that's just the name we went with to better tie it into to the WORLD OF GREYHAWK® and its "Guild of Wizardry" (see; the similar "Guild Wizard of Waterdeep" from Magic of Faerûn). The mechanics of the class remained the same, only the nature of the Spellpool was changed; replacing the matrix of magical energy with the alternative siphoning power from a trapped demigod (since that could connect it with the Guild's founder, Zagig Yragerne, and his "God Trap" beneath Castle Greyhawk).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
You haven't cited any sources for the assertion "most people hate snakes and will kill them on sight."

I’m not sure what “sources” would satisfy you. The statement is based on many years of life experience and fieldwork.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Comparing snakes (or any other animal/pest) to sapient humanoid wizards doesn't really work….

I have no idea where you’re getting that from, since I never made that comparison.


Originally Posted by Psyren
…I’d question a setting that equates sapients with animals so cavalierly.

Again, I have absolutely no idea where you’re getting this, because that’s not what I said.

[Psyren]

I’m not sure what “sources” would satisfy you. The statement is based on many years of life experience and fieldwork.

Which is an anecdote, yes.



I have no idea where you’re getting that from, since I never made that comparison.


Again, I have absolutely no idea where you’re getting this, because that’s not what I said.

You brought up human attitudes to snakes in a discussion about sorcerer attitudes to wizards, and I was pointing out that the analogy isn't very good.

[denthor]

NPC group could have stayed with them even if they felt safe. Going anywhere in the astral or even returning back to the prime can be at a battle point. NPC group was not thinking. PC group loses nothing know knows minor neutral act for them.

You as a DM make all the choices you should have made trouble in prime material. I disagree with your player but you should have not had them leave if intelligence or wisdom over 4 for any member of NPC group.

[Psyren]

NPC group could have stayed with them even if they felt safe. Going anywhere in the astral or even returning back to the prime can be at a battle point. NPC group was not thinking. PC group loses nothing know knows minor neutral act for them.

You as a DM make all the choices you should have made trouble in prime material. I disagree with your player but you should have not had them leave if intelligence or wisdom over 4 for any member of NPC group.

Wrong thread, you want the "All for Nothing" one further up I think

[thorr-kan]

Nah, that's just the name we went with to better tie it into to the WORLD OF GREYHAWK® and its "Guild of Wizardry" (see; the similar "Guild Wizard of Waterdeep" from Magic of Faerûn). The mechanics of the class remained the same, only the nature of the Spellpool was changed; replacing the matrix of magical energy with the alternative siphoning power from a trapped demigod (since that could connect it with the Guild's founder, Zagig Yragerne, and his "God Trap" beneath Castle Greyhawk).
Or the Silverymoon one.

Thanks! I'm always looking for another guild mage.

[Asmotherion]

Well depending on what sources you have available you can:

A) Have a Wizard craft a knowstone of the spell you want to learn; The Wizard in question needs to have the "Craft Wonderous item" feat wich is not uncommon at all. You however need to have access to the Dragon Magazine (333/ Page 93). Their price is aproximatelly that of scrolls.

B) A drake helm is a devise with similar function as the above. The Helm has 1-4 slots and you can put a Dragonshard containing a spell in each slot. Both items require the "Craft Wonderous item" feat so most wizards willing to teach you may have it. Wile more "official" than the above still Eberon setting Specific unless your DM includes it in his campain (and if you have to beg him for something might as well be knowstones).

C) Runestaffs; you can put 2-5 spells in a Runestaff and use a spell slot of yours to cast from it as they have no charges. Metamagic functions normally as if you cast the spell yourself and even use your own caster level and own abilities instead of the Staff's creator. That's the good news. it's creation needs a slightly rarer feat than the above 2 options (Craft Staff) but it probably won't be too hard to find a wizard that has it. They are somewhat expensive. The spells in a staff must be thematically similar at least towards an aspect. You attune to one staff at the start of the Day and can have multiple staffs to effectively "prepare" your extra spells each day and change between them. Having a bunsh of them in a bag of holding can get you a lot of versatility (though you can only attune to a single one each day) as long as you can afford to buy more of them. This is probably the most official source (Magic item Compendium) that is not setting speciffic.

"Mage of the Arcane Order" PrC can grant you access to extra spells through the spellpool. Technically most members are Wizards and they short term grant you spells.

Finally if you have planar binding spells a Wizard may teach your Sorcerer of what monsters have what SLAs so you can bind them and then order them to use them on your behalf.

[Thurbane]

In addition to the above items, there is also the Ring of Theurgy (CAr p.145): the Wizard can transfer a spell into the ring, then the Sorcerer can access this is an extra spell known. Needs to be replenished after each casting.

[Hiro Quester]

...wouldn't that mean that no Sorcerer has ever been able to learn a spell that wasn't first created by a Wizard?

Not being limited by on hand resources to decide their spell access is one of the few real benefits of being a Sorcerer over a Wizard. Taking that way from them just seems cruel and unusual.

Making everyone learn spells by seeing them cast is mostly a way for the DM to control which spells get introduced into the game. It limits some of the overpowered spells until he thinks he’ll be able to design encounters that are challenging and interesting. Otherwise some powerful spells can just shut down a challenge.

E.g. as a player, i’d want my bard PC to like to learn glibness soon. But this bard’s bluff check is already troublingly high. If he learned glibness his ability to manipulate what others think a bout reality just get out of control. No enemy with a reasonable wisdom score could have a sense motive check high enough to match it. So nobody has yet cast glibness in our presence.

We also have a large party, and different levels of optimization. It’s another way to keep the very optimized PCs from dominating encounters.