Monk Tweak

[Nagog]

So after reading through many of the Monk threads on the Playground, there seem to be /almost/ as many varied opinions on Monks as there are for Sorcerers, with people all over the spectrum on whether monks need a buff or the issue with monks or whether Monks scale out really fast, etc. So, in anticipation of this becoming another multi-faceted battleground, this idea is just a spitball to see how it would affect the Monk as a whole, as I know many people here are much more familiar with 5e and it's various exploits than I am.

How would allowing a Monk's unarmed strikes count as Weapons affect the game? I imagine it would open up a lot of multiclassing potential, but it may also throw things around that I'm unaware of. What do you think?

[Amechra]

They are weapon attacks, though. They just aren't weapons.

I'd make them simple melee weapons with no tags, myself. Then Martial Arts could also give it the Finesse quality, so that you can sneak attack with your fists.

[Talsin]

So after reading through many of the Monk threads on the Playground, there seem to be /almost/ as many varied opinions on Monks as there are for Sorcerers, with people all over the spectrum on whether monks need a buff or the issue with monks or whether Monks scale out really fast, etc. So, in anticipation of this becoming another multi-faceted battleground, this idea is just a spitball to see how it would affect the Monk as a whole, as I know many people here are much more familiar with 5e and it's various exploits than I am.

How would allowing a Monk's unarmed strikes count as Weapon Attacks affect the game? I imagine it would open up a lot of multiclassing potential, but it may also throw things around that I'm unaware of. What do you think?

I think one of the few interactions might be a stronger Monk/Cleric multiclass, as well as going full MAD and doing a Paladin/Monk for a massive smitestorm would be more viable. It would improve fighter/monk multi, as you could argue that it can fall under Duelist -OR- two-weapon fighting, but I'm not sure how that interaction would really work. Shillelagh-Shenanigans still wouldn't work because that spells works on a specific type of weapon. OH Magic Weapon would work on it, as would any spells that target a weapon. You could use your fist as a spell-component for SCAG cantrips. "Ringing Fist" or "Shining Burning Finger" for BB or GFB respectively for flavor/memes.

[Nagog]

They are weapon attacks, though. They just aren't weapons.

I'd make them simple melee weapons with no tags, myself. Then Martial Arts could also give it the Finesse quality, so that you can sneak attack with your fists.

Thanks for pointing that out! I've updated it. :)

[Talsin]

As far as an improvement to the life of a straight-to-twenty Monk, it would make Kensei much better, and that's about it, I think.

[Zetakya]

I'd much rather have the ability to choose Strength or Dexterity for Athletics rolls.

[Trickery]

Well, the Monk could go three levels into Warlock for pact of the blade, then declare unarmed strike to be his pact weapon, then shunt it away to an extra dimensional space and disappear. That's probably one of the more creative ways to kill off a character, since the Monk couldn't summon his body back unless his spirit remained.

[Nagog]

Well, the Monk could go three levels into Warlock for pact of the blade, then declare unarmed strike to be his pact weapon, then shunt it away to an extra dimensional space and disappear. That's probably one of the more creative ways to kill off a character, since the Monk couldn't summon his body back unless his spirit remained.

"Hey guys, check out what I can do!" *instantly vanishes, never to return*

This is a very creative way to commit suicide, right up there with having a -3 to con and losing health with each level up XD

[Zetakya]

You'd have to be at least Monk 6 to do that because bonded Pact Weapons have to be magical.

[Nagog]

You'd have to be at least Monk 6 to do that because bonded Pact Weapons have to be magical.

Don't they become magical when you bond to them?

Edit: Just double checked: It does need to be magical, my mistake.

[Trickery]

Don't they become magical when you bond to them?

No, he has a point. You either summon the weapon or you bond a magical weapon. There's also a restriction that the weapon cannot be sentient - though I think we could make the case that any character who does this is clearly brainless.

[djreynolds]

A monk/rogue can still sneak attack with a finesse weapon and still BA unarmed strike and FOB.

And so a monk's main weapon could be a rapier, as good as a spear or staff used two handed.

Now what I'm working on is a flying sidekick to allow the monk to compete with GWM/SS

[blackjack50]

I'd much rather have the ability to choose Strength or Dexterity for Athletics rolls.

This. This is very important. Personally? I’ve done martial arts. Strength is part of any true art. You get stronger and faster. The idea that you can replace dex with strength is very...Judo. Do personally? I’d allow, due to 5e rules, dex to replace strength for any grappling contests at least.

But then. I don’t have many issues with monks so far. They aren’t a tank. And that is fine. A man who goes unarmed into combat against armed opponents? That makes sense. Stick and move.

[Nagog]

I'd much rather have the ability to choose Strength or Dexterity for Athletics rolls.


This. This is very important. Personally? I’ve done martial arts. Strength is part of any true art. You get stronger and faster. The idea that you can replace dex with strength is very...Judo. Do personally? I’d allow, due to 5e rules, dex to replace strength for any grappling contests at least.

But then. I don’t have many issues with monks so far. They aren’t a tank. And that is fine. A man who goes unarmed into combat against armed opponents? That makes sense. Stick and move.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/352/470/1b5.gif

[samcifer]

This. This is very important. Personally? I’ve done martial arts. Strength is part of any true art. You get stronger and faster. The idea that you can replace dex with strength is very...Judo. Do personally? I’d allow, due to 5e rules, dex to replace strength for any grappling contests at least.

But then. I don’t have many issues with monks so far. They aren’t a tank. And that is fine. A man who goes unarmed into combat against armed opponents? That makes sense. Stick and move.

In my group, we often allow a choice between Athletics or Acrobatics whenever a surprise Athletics roll is required.

[blackjack50]

In my group, we often allow a choice between Athletics or Acrobatics whenever a surprise Athletics roll is required.

Yeah. That is how I feel. The issue of course is that grapple as a general rule comes down to strength/athletics score when you engage and grab someone. At least how we have ruled it (and how most it seem do rule it). I feel, given the monk will tend to have high Dex, that they should be able to completely replace athletics with dex in a grapple because of their “years of training.”

Personally? I’ve seen some home brew judoka monk stuff out there. I’d love to have one (myself being a judoka lol). But that is a different story for home brew.

[blackjack50]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/352/470/1b5.gif

Yes. Perhaps at the cost of a Ki point for balance...allow a monk to replace any strength based skill with dex? For a round. So if I want to grapple someone at the cost of a single ki...I can have a stronger grab and potentially tie them up and then continue to contest with acrobatics when they try to break it.

Of course you can always flurry of blows a person at the cost of a ki, and hope you knock them down with a strength contest.

[stoutstien]

Yes. Perhaps at the cost of a Ki point for balance...allow a monk to replace any strength based skill with dex? For a round. So if I want to grapple someone at the cost of a single ki...I can have a stronger grab and potentially tie them up and then continue to contest with acrobatics when they try to break it.

Of course you can always flurry of blows a person at the cost of a ki, and hope you knock them down with a strength contest.

Not a bad idea. Add it to patient defense would work.

[Amechra]

Doing a bit of math...

If you bump up a Monk's martial arts die to match the progression given by Bardic Inspiration dice (d6 at 1st, d8 at 5th, d10 at 11th, d12 at 17th), it gives Monks a much-needed late-game boost that doesn't disrupt the earlier levels - in fact, it opens things up to having Monks that just use their fists being viable from 5th level instead of 11th.

Using my Kenku Monk (who dumped Strength like a bad habit) as an example, spending a ki point to make an Athletics check using Dexterity would be a +4 to the check at low levels, potentially going all the way up to a +6 at 8th level. That's... pretty large. I think a better solution would be to move Deflect Missiles up to 4th level, drop Slow Fall, then give them Expertise at 3rd and 10th levels like a Bard. Sure, Monks are much more focused in terms of what skills they have than a Bard or Rogue, but pulling off super-human feats of skill is well within the class fantasy for a Monk.

If you really need Slow Fall, I'd just let them Deflect the ground :smallwink:.