Flaw in Hel's Plan

[EmperorSarda]

Hel's plan is to gain all the Dwarven souls because if the gods themselves vote to destroy the world, then the Dwarves don't die honorably.

But now because of the Dwarven council of clans meeting if they vote to destroy the world because they think it is the honorable thing to do, then for all the Dwarves it becomes an honorable death instead. It might take the dominated dwarven elders to play along in the afterlife to say, "Yes I was dominated during the vote, but I without the domination I would have voted yes because it is the honorable thing to do".

Honestly, that is the flaw in Hel's plan. It is no longer up to the gods, but up to the dwarves now. So even if the world gets destroyed, she may lose out on the Dwarves themselves.

[hroþila]

Some council members think it would be honorable, but that doesn't mean they're right. And even if they are right, that only applies to them, the ones actually making the decision to die and go to Hel for the sake of others. Any dwarf who didn't have a say wouldn't have an honorable death.

[Schroeswald]

Hel's plan is to gain all the Dwarven souls because if the gods themselves vote to destroy the world, then the Dwarves don't die honorably.

But now because of the Dwarven council of clans meeting if they vote to destroy the world because they think it is the honorable thing to do, then for all the Dwarves it becomes an honorable death instead. It might take the dominated dwarven elders to play along in the afterlife to say, "Yes I was dominated during the vote, but I without the domination I would have voted yes because it is the honorable thing to do".

Honestly, that is the flaw in Hel's plan. It is no longer up to the gods, but up to the dwarves now. So even if the world gets destroyed, she may lose out on the Dwarves themselves.

The dwarves who voted for it would get an honorable death, the random dwarves on the street had no say in it, their death is still dishonorable

[EmperorSarda]

The dwarves who voted for it would get an honorable death, the random dwarves on the street had no say in it, their death is still dishonorable

But they vote on behalf of their clans. So wouldn't their clans be saved too?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But they vote on behalf of their clans. So wouldn't their clans be saved too?

No, because their deaths continue to not be brought about by their own honorable actions. Honor is not delegatable.

The bottom line is that Dvalin, the god of dwarven honor, agrees that this will condemn all dwarves to Hel. I'm going to take his view on the situation.

Grey Wolf

[NerdyKris]

It's also highly unlikely that Rich is going to consider suicide an honorable death, given what he's said every time this subject is brought up.

It's probably not going to matter anyways, since destroying the world would effectively end the Order of the Stick as the main characters in the story.

[brian 333]

I raised this point when we first learned of the 'destroy the world' plot. I don't believe, even if the dwarves never learned why they died, that their deaths would be dishonorable. In fact, to die for the survival of others is the ultimate honor.

The forum quickly shouted me down, of course. The best evidence I have heard is that Hel believes her plan will work. A supergenius deity who is intimately familiar with how her world works is in a better position than I to judge.

But I still agree that the dwarves risking their afterlife for others is honorable whether they choose or whether it is forced on them.

[Schroeswald]

I raised this point when we first learned of the 'destroy the world' plot. I don't believe, even if the dwarves never learned why they died, that their deaths would be dishonorable. In fact, to die for the survival of others is the ultimate honor.

The forum quickly shouted me down, of course. The best evidence I have heard is that Hel believes her plan will work. A supergenius deity who is intimately familiar with how her world works is in a better position than I to judge.

But I still agree that the dwarves risking their afterlife for others is honorable whether they choose or whether it is forced on them.

To die for others is honorable if you choose it, when you don’t its just being killed where you stand.

[hroþila]

At any rate, "I disagree with Rich and/or Thor, Loki & Hel on what should count as honorable" is not a very compelling argument in the context of a hypothetical in-universe scenario.

[D.One]

At any rate, "I disagree with Rich and/or Thor, Loki & Hel on what should count as honorable" is not a very compelling argument in the context of a hypothetical in-universe scenario.

And don't forget Dvalin. He himself believes those deaths won't be honorable, and I'm inclined to consider him an expert on the matter...

[Peelee]

Dvalin, the god of dwarven honor

Grey Wolf
Demigod. ♫You're welcome!♪

The bottom line is that Dvalin, the god of dwarven honor, agrees that this will condemn all dwarves to Hel. I'm going to take his view on the situation.

Grey Wolf

And don't forget Dvalin. He himself believes those deaths won't be honorable, and I'm inclined to consider him an expert on the matter...
More than Dvalin; none of the other gods seemed to believe that her plan wouldn't work at the Godsmoot.

It's also highly unlikely that Rich is going to consider suicide an honorable death, given what he's said every time this subject is brought up.
I think it's less suicide and more self-sacrifice. Like how O-Chul is always acting.

[EmperorSarda]

It's also highly unlikely that Rich is going to consider suicide an honorable death, given what he's said every time this subject is brought up.


Durkon's dad honorably. And look how he died.

[D.One]

Come to think of it, the greatest flaw in Hel's plan is Hel herself and her impatience.

Follow my thought:

Suppose everything that happened until Durkon's vampirization happens the same way. Then, she gets a High Level Cleric. Instead of sending him to vote in a Godsmoot and makes lots of arrangements for a tiebraker vote to be tampered, she could simply tell Durkon* to be discrete and follow the order to their final destination at Kraagor's gate. There, instead of focusing o Xykon and Team Evil, he could concentrate in trying to destroy the gate, and thus give the other gods a reason to destroy the world.

I mean, the vote was already a close one. If the last gate fell, they would probably decide for "destroy the world".

But she just couldn't wait...

[Fish]

It’s a flaw in Hel’s plan if Rich says it is. I don’t think there’s any way for us to argue one way or another about what is more logical or reasonable. Personally, I doubt it, but I can’t prove it.

I’m going to assume that Hel’s plan is a real threat because Thor and Loki are acting as if it is. I doubt they’d turn up to run interference knowing that her plan won’t work. (Thor, maybe, to protect Durkon, but if millions of dwarven souls are off the table, Loki has no stake. He specifically sent Hilgya here to deal with things, oh, a hundred strips ago. That’s not the action of a god with no skin in the game.) I further doubt that Rich would solve the problem like a conjurer whisking away the tablecloth and saying, “Ha ha! There was never any danger!”

[Jasdoif]

Come to think of it, the greatest flaw in Hel's plan is Hel herself and her impatience.

Follow my thought:

Suppose everything that happened until Durkon's vampirization happens the same way. Then, she gets a High Level Cleric. Instead of sending him to vote in a Godsmoot and makes lots of arrangements for a tiebraker vote to be tampered, she could simply tell Durkon* to be discrete and follow the order to their final destination at Kraagor's gate. There, instead of focusing o Xykon and Team Evil, he could concentrate in trying to destroy the gate, and thus give the other gods a reason to destroy the world.

I mean, the vote was already a close one. If the last gate fell, they would probably decide for "destroy the world".

But she just couldn't wait...Do you really think the gods won't destroy the world if the last Gate falls?

[D.One]

Do you really think the gods won't destroy the world if the last Gate falls?

I completely think they would.

I believe that's what I've said, wasn't it? :smallconfused:

What I meant to say was that, if Hel was patient enough to play the (slightly) long game, she could focus on sending her agent to destroy the last gate, which would ensure the following Godsmoot would have a "Yes, destroy the world" result, instead of focusing on this one, where there are still many gods who are inclined to give the world a chance.

[Emanick]

It's also highly unlikely that Rich is going to consider suicide an honorable death, given what he's said every time this subject is brought up.

It's probably not going to matter anyways, since destroying the world would effectively end the Order of the Stick as the main characters in the story.

The comic seems to suggest that any death in combat is honorable, even one that is tantamount to suicide, like Eugene's suggestion that dwarves all go charge at some ancient red dragon, or something (I don't remember the exact wording).

Rich is definitely making an effort to avoid presenting suicide as a solution to any problems (even if I personally think he's not doing an ideal job in terms of symbolism - V committing suicide to save hir spouse was raised as a potential "solution," albeit by an imp, and Durkon frees his soul by baring his chest for Belkar to stab him). But I think he's doing this by steering the plot away from suicide actually resolving problems, not by further complicating the rules of the Bet to define deaths from combat, self-sacrifice, etc. that could be deemed "suicidal" as dishonorable.


I raised this point when we first learned of the 'destroy the world' plot. I don't believe, even if the dwarves never learned why they died, that their deaths would be dishonorable. In fact, to die for the survival of others is the ultimate honor.

The forum quickly shouted me down, of course. The best evidence I have heard is that Hel believes her plan will work. A supergenius deity who is intimately familiar with how her world works is in a better position than I to judge.

But I still agree that the dwarves risking their afterlife for others is honorable whether they choose or whether it is forced on them.

It's important to remember that this bet is not operating under a sane, objective definition of "honor" - it's operating under a weird one defined by at least some of the gods who made the bet. You don't need to agree with the Bet's definition of "honor" - it seems that dying from a drunken brawl would count as an honorable death, while succumbing to cancer after years of fighting to survive would be "dishonorable." Few, if any, of us would agree with this definition of honor, but it's the one in operation in this world, and we don't have to agree with it in order to acknowledge that is exists.

You're welcome to consider it honorable to risk your afterlife for others - I certainly do - but unfortunately our opinion doesn't seem to have much to do with how the rules are being applied.

[Jasdoif]

I completely think they would.

I believe that's what I've said, wasn't it? :smallconfused:

What I meant to say was that, if Hel was patient enough to play the (slightly) long game, she could focus on sending her agent to destroy the last gate, which would ensure the following Godsmoot would have a "Yes, destroy the world" result, instead of focusing on this one, where there are still many gods who are inclined to give the world a chance.I mean in the situation the comic is in now: If the Godsmoot votes to the spare the world and then the last Gate were to fall, do you think the gods still wouldn't destroy the world?

That is...If Hel is banking on getting a bunch of dwarf souls (to decisively win the bet with Thor, if not dominate the rest of the Northern gods), then how many dwarf souls aren't destroyed by the Snarl becomes a vital figure. And if the gods opt to leave the world alone until the Snarl quiesces (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html), rather than Loki's idea to agree to tear up the world after the last rift opens (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)...Hel has a lot more to gain from winning at the Godsmoot, than going only for the Gate. (And short of a complete accounting of every dwarf vampire, getting one/some of them near the location of the Gate to break it as a consolidation prize is still on the table)

[RatElemental]

Personally, the fact that the "standard" way to die with honor is to die in combat then I would think all the gods have to do is challenge the dwarves to a duel, or even just kill them all and claim after the fact that they were killed in combat.

Dying in a fight against literal gods has to be honorable if dying in a fight against a tree is.

[The MunchKING]

Personally, the fact that the "standard" way to die with honor is to die in combat then I would think all the gods have to do is challenge the dwarves to a duel, or even just kill them all and claim after the fact that they were killed in combat.

Dying in a fight against literal gods has to be honorable if dying in a fight against a tree is.

It depends on if the Dwarves fight back or if they go cry under their beds cowering from Divine Might. :smallwink:

Also I'm not sure the other pantheons would let the Northern get away with manifesting to fight them directly, not to mention Hel. Hard to fight back if there's nothing there TO fight.

[Hekko]

I’m going to assume that Hel’s plan is a real threat because Thor and Loki are acting as if it is. I doubt they’d turn up to run interference knowing that her plan won’t work. (Thor, maybe, to protect Durkon, but if millions of dwarven souls are off the table, Loki has no stake. He specifically sent Hilgya here to deal with things, oh, a hundred strips ago. That’s not the action of a god with no skin in the game.) I further doubt that Rich would solve the problem like a conjurer whisking away the tablecloth and saying, “Ha ha! There was never any danger!”

Thor and Loki may also be protecting this world to keep The Dark One alive so that they will be able to contain Snarl better (maybe even forever). If the world is destroyed now, TDO will likely not survive until the next one is built and the new quiddity will be lost. Thor calls it a once-in-an-eternity opportunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html). I think this is their main goal, and in the span of millions of worlds, it is more important than the possible tragedy of one generation of dwarves. Saving the dwarves en masse is only a bonus (but it comes at a price of keeping this world going, and the bet, too, so they will still be dealt a rough deal).

[Rrmcklin]

Come to think of it, the greatest flaw in Hel's plan is Hel herself and her impatience.

Follow my thought:

Suppose everything that happened until Durkon's vampirization happens the same way. Then, she gets a High Level Cleric. Instead of sending him to vote in a Godsmoot and makes lots of arrangements for a tiebraker vote to be tampered, she could simply tell Durkon* to be discrete and follow the order to their final destination at Kraagor's gate. There, instead of focusing o Xykon and Team Evil, he could concentrate in trying to destroy the gate, and thus give the other gods a reason to destroy the world.

I mean, the vote was already a close one. If the last gate fell, they would probably decide for "destroy the world".

But she just couldn't wait...

That makes much less sense you when you recall this tiebreaking situation is Plan B, and original she was just supposed to get a straight majority of the demi-gods' votes, Davlin or no Davlin.

You're plan also carries more inherent risk of the high priest being destroyed via an Epic-level Lich Sorcerer and higher level Cleric of the Durkon than the odds of what he should have been facing. And even factoring in the unexpected variable of Hilgya, if not for Durkon pulling off something that's basically never happened before, the High Priest still would have come out as victorious against the Order, and this Plan B would be proceeding much more smoothly.

Even with hindsight I see no reason to think your path is actually more logic than the one she decided on.

[Fish]

Thor and Loki may also be protecting this world to keep The Dark One alive ...
True, but consider: if Hel’s plan were unattainable, Thor and Loki could have simply said, “You might as well give up, you lose, it’ll never work because XYZ, there’s no point blowing up the world.” Slam dunk, Hel has to bow out, they can go back to their day jobs. But they don’t. Hell, they could have told her this days ago, or at the Godsmoot, but they didn’t. They hang about, killing time, making it obvious that they’re spying on her. Why?

They’re not acting like I expect they would if they knew Hel’s plan were fatally flawed.

[Emanick]

True, but consider: if Hel’s plan were unattainable, Thor and Loki could have simply said, “You might as well give up, you lose, it’ll never work because XYZ, there’s no point blowing up the world.” Slam dunk, Hel has to bow out, they can go back to their day jobs. But they don’t. Hell, they could have told her this weeks ago, but they didn’t. They hang about, killing time, making it obvious that they’re spying on her. Why?

They’re not acting like I expect they would if they knew Hel’s plan were fatally flawed.

To be fair, even if her plan was flawed because the deaths of all those dwarves would actually count as honorable, Thor and Loki still wouldn't want the world to be destroyed, because that would make it impossible to stop The Snarl for good. So they'd still be attempting to prevent her from achieving her goal here.

I guess they could try persuasion, but do you think Hel would believe them if they simply told her "this won't work"? I sure don't. Even if they explained why, she'd probably be too blinded by confirmation bias to be persuaded.

Note: it does seem exceedingly likely that her plan would work, so this is all moot.

[D.One]

Note: it does seem exceedingly likely that her plan would work, so this is all moot.

If Godsmoot, everything else can be... :smallbiggrin:

[Squire Doodad]

I raised this point when we first learned of the 'destroy the world' plot. I don't believe, even if the dwarves never learned why they died, that their deaths would be dishonorable. In fact, to die for the survival of others is the ultimate honor.

The forum quickly shouted me down, of course. The best evidence I have heard is that Hel believes her plan will work. A supergenius deity who is intimately familiar with how her world works is in a better position than I to judge.

But I still agree that the dwarves risking their afterlife for others is honorable whether they choose or whether it is forced on them.

Frankly, I feel like the fact that the world will be destroyed would mean that the bet ends effective immediately before the dwarven souls are cashed in. Tenure of this world and all.

If Hel wins the bet without the dwarven souls, on the other hand, she could still have power enough to become a vastly more powerful goddess than before from the get go.

[Fish]

To be fair, even if her plan was flawed because the deaths of all those dwarves would actually count as honorable, Thor and Loki still wouldn't want the world to be destroyed, because that would make it impossible to stop The Snarl for good. So they'd still be attempting to prevent her from achieving her goal here.
Yes, but Hel would have no reason to accelerate the destruction of the world in that case, no reason except spite, and that’s not likely. She just got her first high-level priests in forever. Absent her grand scheme to win all the marbles, she has less reason to destroy this world than most. She might even view any attempt to destroy the world as an attempt to undermine her power.

Also: if Thor and Loki have some way of knowing her plan is flawed, she’d probably have the same perception. And Hel isn’t acting like the souls of all those dwarves are something she’ll have to wrangle over in negotiations.

[Morty]

Ultimately it doesn't really matter if Hel's plan can work or not. She believes it does and the other gods seem to agree. If the world is destroyed, our heroes still die and the purple quiddity might be lost forever. So the heroes are still going to stop her and Thor and Loki are going to help them - which is exactly what's happening. However the entire thing plays out, I'm reasonably confident "Hel's plan is dumb and doomed to fail anyway" won't be how it happens.

[Hekko]

True, but consider: if Hel’s plan were unattainable, Thor and Loki could have simply said, “You might as well give up, you lose, it’ll never work because XYZ, there’s no point blowing up the world.” Slam dunk, Hel has to bow out, they can go back to their day jobs. But they don’t. Hell, they could have told her this days ago, or at the Godsmoot, but they didn’t. They hang about, killing time, making it obvious that they’re spying on her. Why?

They’re not acting like I expect they would if they knew Hel’s plan were fatally flawed.

Mostly, what Emanick said. If their main motivation to make Hel fail is to keep TDO around, they will work against her regardless of how flawed or unflawed her plan is. They want to keep this world running.

But if Hel's plan is fatally flawed, perhaps keeping her in the dark about that is their (Thor's) backup for saving at least some dwarven souls. Knowledge is power and all that. Why give Hel time to prepare for the negotiations? The argument that the dwarven sacrifice means honourable deaths for all of them is wobbly at best. I wonder what would happen if Thor played it anyway and refused to back down? Hel wouldn't back down either (the bulk of souls being what she is after). Would someone impartial judge the case? Who? Other pantheons? The Northern gods would be biased, they would be affected by the power balance of the pantheon in the new world.

[Fish]

Mostly, what Emanick said. If their main motivation to make Hel fail is to keep TDO around, they will work against her regardless of how flawed or unflawed her plan is.
Yes, I follow the logic. And I agree that Hel’s plan is likely to be sound. I am arguing to that effect. I’ve already pointed out that she and Thor and Loki are acting as if this is the case. More importantly, the story tells us that this is the plot, and I doubt Rich would try to convince us that these are the stakes in his story if it’s not true. Such a move would trivialize the drama. It would be an anticlimax.

My point is this: whether or not they have another motive for saving the world, “making her plan fail” seems to be more work, requiring more hands-on presence, than “convincing her not to have a plan at all.” I am therefore commenting on the epistemological certainty of Thor’s and Loki’s knowledge about her plan’s chance of success. IF it is unsound, Thor and Loki cannot have incontrovertible evidence to that effect, or they would likely have used it. Therefore, it is either sound (and they can prove it), sound (and they only suspect it), or unsound (yet they have no evidence Hel would find convincing).

[Rrmcklin]

Also, I have to ask, what exactly does it add to the story to go "Hahaha, actually, Hel's plan wouldn't have worked no matter what!" Ignoring how all of the characters act as if it will, and thus we have no actual reason to assume it won't, how does that specific line of reasoning add to thing?

[Jasdoif]

Also, I have to ask, what exactly does it add to the story to go "Hahaha, actually, Hel's plan wouldn't have worked no matter what!" Ignoring how all of the characters act as if it will, and thus we have no actual reason to assume it won't, how does that specific line of reasoning add to thing?Yeah. I mean, I've seen that kind of thing pay off before, where the purported "master plan" was actually a ploy, a manipulation to create an opportunity or weakness for the real master plan...but what would that be here? The only real advantage I'm seeing is time, in that the Order hasn't been dealing with Xykon; and while "force a stall to give someone else a head start" is certainly valid tactically, it doesn't pull much story weight.

[Squire Doodad]

Also, I have to ask, what exactly does it add to the story to go "Hahaha, actually, Hel's plan wouldn't have worked no matter what!" Ignoring how all of the characters act as if it will, and thus we have no actual reason to assume it won't, how does that specific line of reasoning add to thing?

I mean, it could be used as a setup for a realization that what happened did matter. Like "Hel wouldn't have won either way, but you just saved everyone from a bigger catastrophe".
Can't think of what that would be, though.

[RatElemental]

I mean, it could be used as a setup for a realization that what happened did matter. Like "Hel wouldn't have won either way, but you just saved everyone from a bigger catastrophe".
Can't think of what that would be, though.

"Hel's plan wouldn't have worked, but thanks to you, Durkon, now we still have a chance to work with the Dark One and end this snarl business once and for all."

[Squire Doodad]

"Hel's plan wouldn't have worked, but thanks to you, Durkon, now we still have a chance to work with the Dark One and end this snarl business once and for all."

True, but I can't think of anything that would the Order would have fixed in the Dwarven Lands. Like, something terrible happening that's been prevented (the only thing is the vampires which was the result of Hel's plan), not "Durkon gets to go see his family again" (which while sweet isn't really a horrific doom befalling them all).

[brian 333]

For the vast majority of deities Hel's plan simply doesn't matter. It only matters to us because it has sidetracked the OoTS from their mission.

If instead of Durkon Hilgya had been vamped, the exact same series of events could have occurred and we'd never know until the sequel where Durkon and Roy head to Firmament to clean up the mess.

Sure, we'd have missed out on some awesome stuff, but there would have been other awesome stuff.

[Rrmcklin]

For the vast majority of deities Hel's plan simply doesn't matter. It only matters to us because it has sidetracked the OoTS from their mission.

If instead of Durkon Hilgya had been vamped, the exact same series of events could have occurred and we'd never know until the sequel where Durkon and Roy head to Firmament to clean up the mess.

Sure, we'd have missed out on some awesome stuff, but there would have been other awesome stuff.

Not true: a vampire sired to fill the whole in Hilgya's heart very likely wouldn't have been as cooperative as Durkon's was. This point is brought up in story.

[Worldsong]

For the vast majority of deities Hel's plan simply doesn't matter. It only matters to us because it has sidetracked the OoTS from their mission.

If instead of Durkon Hilgya had been vamped, the exact same series of events could have occurred and we'd never know until the sequel where Durkon and Roy head to Firmament to clean up the mess.

Sure, we'd have missed out on some awesome stuff, but there would have been other awesome stuff.

Does it count if I say it matters to me because I don't want to imagine all those dwarven souls going to Hel?

That said I'm in the faction saying that it's better to assume that Hel is at least competent enough that her plan would have worked if it came to pass as she wished it, rather than there being some sort of note saying "By the way this plan would have failed no matter what."

I mean sure regardless of whether the plan would have worked or not Durkon and the OotS saved their home from destruction so either way they'd have saved the day for everyone living on the current world, but it'd still feel like a bit of an anticlimax if the big bad of the story arc turned out to be so inept that her plan would never have worked anyway.

[deuterio12]

Does it count if I say it matters to me because I don't want to imagine all those dwarven souls going to Hel?

That said I'm in the faction saying that it's better to assume that Hel is at least competent enough that her plan would have worked if it came to pass as she wished it, rather than there being some sort of note saying "By the way this plan would have failed no matter what."

I mean sure regardless of whether the plan would have worked or not Durkon and the OotS saved their home from destruction so either way they'd have saved the day for everyone living on the current world, but it'd still feel like a bit of an anticlimax if the big bad of the story arc turned out to be so inept that her plan would never have worked anyway.

You mean how big bad Xykon is pursuing a plan that is doomed to fail (controling the Snarl) due to being manipulated by big bad Redcloak who in turn is running a desperate gambit (threaten to release the snar over the other gods) that has a higher risk of ending with his own deity dead (the gods will just blow up the world if the Snarl is about to be released then the Dark One has a huge risk of not surviving to the next world due to lack of divine reserves)?

Yeah, Oots big bads are pretty much just fumbling around as a rule of thumb.

This is, the whole thing started when Hel was stupid enough to take a bet from Loki. Aka the god of trickery. And then "all the souls from the dwarves except for a tiny condition" turned out to be "some soul scraps when the other gods can't be bothered to claim the dwarf souls as their own because it turns out that tiny condition can be twisted to cover every dwarf ever".

Hel got played hard, and now she's trying to pull a last ditch effort to salvage things so she doesn't finish this world in last place, except that Thor and Loki now want to keep this specific world going because it has the Dark One for a new divine color, and if it gets blown up chances are that the Dark One goes down with it (which the Dark One doesn't realize himself).

[RatElemental]

Does it count if I say it matters to me because I don't want to imagine all those dwarven souls going to Hel?

That said I'm in the faction saying that it's better to assume that Hel is at least competent enough that her plan would have worked if it came to pass as she wished it, rather than there being some sort of note saying "By the way this plan would have failed no matter what."

I mean sure regardless of whether the plan would have worked or not Durkon and the OotS saved their home from destruction so either way they'd have saved the day for everyone living on the current world, but it'd still feel like a bit of an anticlimax if the big bad of the story arc turned out to be so inept that her plan would never have worked anyway.

Hel's plan doesn't need to have worked in order for her to have destroyed the world, condemning all mortals on it and all future worlds to an early grave (whenever the snarl starts breaking loose for the latter case), as well as the gods to another eternity of repeating the cycle of creation and destruction. Only now they know it could have been different. Sometimes being smart just means you're really good at messing everything up.

[Worldsong]

You mean how big bad Xykon is pursuing a plan that is doomed to fail (controling the Snarl) due to being manipulated by big bad Redcloak who in turn is running a desperate gambit (threaten to release the snar over the other gods) that has a higher risk of ending with his own deity dead (the gods will just blow up the world if the Snarl is about to be released then the Dark One has a huge risk of not surviving to the next world due to lack of divine reserves)?

Yeah, Oots big bads are pretty much just fumbling around as a rule of thumb.

This is, the whole thing started when Hel was stupid enough to take a bet from Loki. Aka the god of trickery. And then "all the souls from the dwarves except for a tiny condition" turned out to be "some soul scraps when the other gods can't be bothered to claim the dwarf souls as their own because it turns out that tiny condition can be twisted to cover every dwarf ever".

Hel got played hard, and now she's trying to pull a last ditch effort to salvage things so she doesn't finish this world in last place, except that Thor and Loki now want to keep this specific world going because it has the Dark One for a new divine color, and if it gets blown up chances are that the Dark One goes down with it (which the Dark One doesn't realize himself).

The important difference there is that with Xykon and Redcloack it's long since been foreshadowed that their plans aren't as likely to work as they think they are. It's a part of the story that Redcloak has long since been planning to use the Snarl for TDO rather than Xykon's attempts at becoming the ruler of the world and it's also a part of the plot that Redcloak's plan isn't nearly as reliable as he'd like to think it is and that he's mainly motivated by the fact that he can't accept that all the sacrifices he's made so far would be for nothing.

With Hel's plan not working it'd be different since every single character who knows about it treats it as a real threat, including the gods themselves. Having her plan suddenly turn out to not work at all would be a whole lot different than with Xykon and Redcloak.

Also neither of those characters are not literal gods, and even if Hel has been deprived of proper nutrition I'd still give a god a couple more points in being aware whether a plan stands a chance of working or not, especially if no other god appears ready to point out to her that there might be a fatal flaw in there.


Hel's plan doesn't need to have worked in order for her to have destroyed the world, condemning all mortals on it and all future worlds to an early grave (whenever the snarl starts breaking loose for the latter case), as well as the gods to another eternity of repeating the cycle of creation and destruction. Only now they know it could have been different. Sometimes being smart just means you're really good at messing everything up.

I'm aware that the world is in danger whether Hel is correct in her assumptions or not. The threat is still there but it'd be really damn silly if it turned out the world was put in danger because one of the gods didn't read the fine print of a bet correctly. Especially since, as stated before, unlike other big bads it hasn't been stated or foreshadowed that her plan might not work, everyone who's aware of it seems to think it's a completely valid threat.

Also, Thor apparently can literally enter Hel's domain to argue with her but apparently didn't feel like at least trying to inform her that the plan wouldn't work. Since he's got little to gain from letting her continue as is that strikes me as a tentative vote in favour of him also believing the threat is real, and he's the person she made the bet with (well, technically she made it with Loki but he's the other participant). The only person more likely than Thor to be aware that the plan wouldn't work is Loki himself and the only reason I'm not using his lack of pointing out the flaw as an argument is because you should never rely on anything Loki says ever.

[KorvinStarmast]

Come to think of it, the greatest flaw in Hel's plan is Hel herself and her impatience. She tipped her hand at the Godsmoot, to be sure.

It's important to remember that this bet is not operating under a sane, objective definition of "honor" - it's operating under a weird one defined by at least some of the gods who made the bet. You don't need to agree with the Bet's definition of "honor" - it seems that dying from a drunken brawl would count as an honorable death, while succumbing to cancer after years of fighting to survive would be "dishonorable." Few, if any, of us would agree with this definition of honor, but it's the one in operation in this world, and we don't have to agree with it in order to acknowledge that is exists.

You're welcome to consider it honorable to risk your afterlife for others - I certainly do - but unfortunately our opinion doesn't seem to have much to do with how the rules are being applied. Yes, context matters in seeing this.


Thor and Loki may also be protecting this world to keep The Dark One alive so that they will be able to contain Snarl better (maybe even forever). If the world is destroyed now, TDO will likely not survive until the next one is built and the new quiddity will be lost. Thor calls it a once-in-an-eternity opportunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html). And the heroes have gotten to a high enough level that their actions influence not just world's, but even the state of the multiverse. Which is as it should be in a D&D campaign that gets this high. (In 5e, that's almost the exact descriptive of the adventuring at level 17-20, but it's been like that in most editions ... we are not quite at the 'immortal' situation from the BECMI version of D&D)

Hel got played hard, and now she's trying to pull a last ditch effort to salvage things so she doesn't finish this world in last place, except that Thor and Loki now want to keep this specific world going because it has the Dark One for a new divine color, and if it gets blown up chances are that the Dark One goes down with it (which the Dark One doesn't realize himself). And that italicized part is IMO a flaw in Hel's plan, though perhaps an indirect one. For the gods who have created millions of worlds, and have had to thanks to the snarl, all gods benefit from a situation where the Snarl can finally be contained. That benefits Hel as well as all of the other gods. Her plan's flaw, in this perspective, is rooted in hr inability to (1) look to the long term, and (2) to look past her own desires.


Sometimes being smart just means you're really good at messing everything up. V's story line.

[Fish]

Hel's plan doesn't need to have worked in order for her to have destroyed the world...
Correct, in my opinion.

As I continue to point out, if there were evidence available to convince Hel that her plan was, in fact, fatally flawed, then Hel might not have voted to destroy the world at all (because the world now contains her first clerics in who knows how long). Hel likely would have voted “don’t destroy the world” at the Godsmoot, if she bothered to turn up at all, and this whole subplot would not have been needed. Hel might have directed Durkula to making saving the world his top priority the moment Malack was killed —possibly with Durkula working with the Order, but also possibly not. If Durkula didn’t save the world, he wouldn’t have a place to stand while preaching Hel’s gospel. We might have seen Hel turn her instinct for interference to working against Xykon (provided she knows of him).

It’s partly because there isn’t any evidence of a flaw that Hel is trying to destroy the world. (Partly also that “Plane Shift her clerics elsewhere, vote to destroy the world, wait to see what kind of world arises next, and hope she can get her clerics back on it to convert the locals” is a plan with too many moving parts. A cleric in the hand is worth two in the Beastlands and all that.) That’s not proof no flaw exists, of course, but it is suggestive.

[Snails]

It’s partly because there isn’t any evidence of a flaw that Hel is trying to destroy the world. (Partly also that “Plane Shift her clerics elsewhere, vote to destroy the world, wait to see what kind of world arises next, and hope she can get her clerics back on it to convert the locals” is a plan with too many moving parts.) That’s not proof no flaw exists, of course, but it is suggestive.

FWIW, I think the Plane Shift piece is unimportant. She has reason to hope she will have a running head start in ruling the next world even without any clerics, and that would be a sufficient improvement to her situation.

I see it as a bone to her clerics, who, given time to develop personal priorities beyond following orders, might have misgivings about either destroying this world or their accidentally getting their nice new meatsuits destroyed before they had a good chance to enjoy them.

"Don't worry. You can be Plane Shifted away." = "Shut up. Don't think. Follow orders. Trust me. (And I might not even be lying. I do not know myself yet.)"

[Snails]

FWIW, the real flaw is in Loki's plan.

Hel and Thor have a fig leaf of an excuse: they were both too stupid to understand what the bet really meant at the time. That is a pretty sucky excuse for a god, but it is better than nothing.

The flaw in Loki's plan is that the world would be destroyed by the hand of the three pantheons is not an anomaly, but a known likely eventuality when the world was being put together in the first place, when these kinds of binding bets were being placed. Loki should have considered the endgame scenarios.

[brian 333]

I agree that it is unlikely that Hel's plot is a fail. It will require the OoTS to thwart it.

I disagree with that interpretation of dishonorable death that condems all living dwarves to Hel. However, I am not writing the comic, so my opinion isn't worth the price of a cup of weak instant coffee.

When we saw the hall from outside it appeared to have a domed roof. This would mean that the hammer went through the roof of the hall, then through the ceiling of the cavern. Did I see that image wrong?

The point being that the dome might be supporting the ceiling of the cavern.

[Jasdoif]

FWIW, the real flaw is in Loki's plan.First things first: What is Loki's plan? Or at the very least, what is Loki's goal?

[Rrmcklin]

FWIW, the real flaw is in Loki's plan.

Hel and Thor have a fig leaf of an excuse: they were both too stupid to understand what the bet really meant at the time. That is a pretty sucky excuse for a god, but it is better than nothing.

The flaw in Loki's plan is that the world would be destroyed by the hand of the three pantheons is not an anomaly, but a known likely eventuality when the world was being put together in the first place, when these kinds of binding bets were being placed. Loki should have considered the endgame scenarios.

You don't know that he didn't consider the endgame solution. We don't know why he originally set this up, and it seems likely that unexpected variables (i.e. the Dark One) made him change his priorities from whatever they originally were.

[Schroeswald]

You don't know that he didn't consider the endgame solution. We don't know why he originally set this up, and it seems likely that unexpected variables (i.e. the Dark One) made him change his priorities from whatever they originally were.

But we have no clue how he wanted to deal with it, making his motivations a bit confusing.

[Jasdoif]

But we have no clue how he wanted to deal with it, making his motivations a bit confusing.Not knowing his motivations is a good reason not to declare efforts stemming from those motivations flawed.

[Schroeswald]

Not knowing his motivations is a good reason not to declare efforts stemming from those motivations flawed.

I agree with you there, I can't say his efforts are flawed, what I can say is that I find it hard to bring his efforts together and figure out what his early motivations were (since TDO was raised to godhood his motivations are intensely clear, get him to work with the other gods to fix up the world and stop the Snarl from ever breaking free).

[Jasdoif]

I agree with you there, I can't say his efforts are flawed, what I can say is that I find it hard to bring his efforts together and figure out what his early motivations were (since TDO was raised to godhood his motivations are intensely clear, get him to work with the other gods to fix up the world and stop the Snarl from ever breaking free).Well....A proposal I've seen several times throughout the discussion threads is that the bet may have been Loki trying to teach Hel the value of clerics. If that was in fact the goal, than Hel plotting to use a cleric to bend the destruction of the world to her advantage means he's already succeeded, even if she doesn't pull it off and even if he doesn't want her to pull it off.

[sleepy hedgehog]

I'm not sure if Loki even had/needed a plan.
They've made millions of these worlds, and this is just one of the millions that will come after it.
It's not all that different than my friends and I sitting down and playing a board game.
And someone saying, "I bet you can't win without going hard economy."
Other than, it's a little more enforced into the game rules.


Additionally, I'm not sure how much Hel even considers this a flaw.
It's literally causing her to go crazy.
Obviously she'd much rather get all the souls.
But I think (and I'm speculating here) that given the choice, Hel would rather end this world, and give up all of the souls, than let it keep going.

To continue my board game metaphor:
At some point in the game you've realized you've lost.
You've lost so hard, in fact, that it's stopped being fun.
You may as well end this one, and take the loss, so you can't start a new one.
But you may as well make a Hail Mary, an all in attempt, first.
Which is pretty much what Hel is doing.

[Quebbster]

With Loki currently keeping an eye on Hel, there's a decent chance he might explain to her why he set up the Bet in the denouement of the book.

[Bohandas]

What happens when a dwarf dies outside of the jurisdiction of the northern gods? because that could screw up her plan as well as the agreement seems to be specific to the norhern gods

[The MunchKING]

What happens when a dwarf dies outside of the jurisdiction of the northern gods? because that could screw up her plan as well as the agreement seems to be specific to the norhern gods

I don't think there IS an "outside the jurisdiction" as long as a Dwarf is involved...

[RatElemental]

My headcannon for Loki's plan for the end of the bet was that he was planning to try and get the world (and all the souls Hel would stand to rake in suddenly) devoured by the snarl to prevent Hel from gaining too much power without undercutting whatever his motive for the bet was, which I believe to be teaching his daughter a lesson about a balanced diet.

Then the dark one appeared and he saw a chance to end the cycle, and had no qualms ditching the lesson and just letting Hel rot for all eternity because he's Loki.

Voting not to destroy the world, as a happy coincidence, serves both of these goals.

[Bohandas]

I don't think there IS an "outside the jurisdiction" as long as a Dwarf is involved...

In that case wouldn't they have needed to get the western and southern pantheons to agree to the bet as well? What do west and south get out of it that they would agree to go along? Either that or Dwarven sould would have to have been the exclusive purview of the Northern Pantheon.

[Peelee]

In that case wouldn't they have needed to get the western and southern pantheons to agree to the bet as well? What do west and south get out of it that they would agree to go along? Either that or Dwarven sould would have to have been the exclusive purview of the Northern Pantheon.

Roy dying in the Southern Continent didn't mean that the Twelve Gods were in charge of his soul. Dwarves are bound by the bet bet no matter where they are, I'd wager.

[Bohandas]

In that case it raises the question of how the northern gods were able to lock out the other two pantheons from claiming any dwarven souls in the first place.

Like, what if a dwarf worships one of the southern or western gods, rather than a northern god

[HorizonWalker]

Roy dying in the Southern Continent didn't mean that the Twelve Gods were in charge of his soul. Dwarves are bound by the bet bet no matter where they are, I'd wager.

My guess is that there just aren't any dwarven populations outside of the Northern Continent, and thus all dwarves are born in the North, placing them under the purview of the Northern Gods.

You might be wondering why there are no Dwarves anywhere else. I'd also like to know. But it's not entirely unprecedented; the Elven Lands are in the Western Continent, and all Elves we've seen outside it were travelers or adventurers of some sort.

[Bohandas]

And that italicized part is IMO a flaw in Hel's plan, though perhaps an indirect one. For the gods who have created millions of worlds, and have had to thanks to the snarl, all gods benefit from a situation where the Snarl can finally be contained. That benefits Hel as well as all of the other gods. Her plan's flaw, in this perspective, is rooted in hr inability to (1) look to the long term, and (2) to look past her own desires.

If the current world continues isn't she stuck with the current arrangement? It would seem to behove her to make sure that this world ends, especially if a means may have been found to continue it indefinitely

[deuterio12]

The important difference there is that with Xykon and Redcloack it's long since been foreshadowed that their plans aren't as likely to work as they think they are. It's a part of the story that Redcloak has long since been planning to use the Snarl for TDO rather than Xykon's attempts at becoming the ruler of the world and it's also a part of the plot that Redcloak's plan isn't nearly as reliable as he'd like to think it is and that he's mainly motivated by the fact that he can't accept that all the sacrifices he's made so far would be for nothing.

With Hel's plan not working it'd be different since every single character who knows about it treats it as a real threat, including the gods themselves. Having her plan suddenly turn out to not work at all would be a whole lot different than with Xykon and Redcloak.

Also neither of those characters are not literal gods, and even if Hel has been deprived of proper nutrition I'd still give a god a couple more points in being aware whether a plan stands a chance of working or not, especially if no other god appears ready to point out to her that there might be a fatal flaw in there.


I'll point you to this other post


I'm not sure if Loki even had/needed a plan.
They've made millions of these worlds, and this is just one of the millions that will come after it.
It's not all that different than my friends and I sitting down and playing a board game.
And someone saying, "I bet you can't win without going hard economy."
Other than, it's a little more enforced into the game rules.

Additionally, I'm not sure how much Hel even considers this a flaw.
It's literally causing her to go crazy.
Obviously she'd much rather get all the souls.
But I think (and I'm speculating here) that given the choice, Hel would rather end this world, and give up all of the souls, than let it keep going.

To continue my board game metaphor:
At some point in the game you've realized you've lost.
You've lost so hard, in fact, that it's stopped being fun.
You may as well end this one, and take the loss, so you can't start a new one.
But you may as well make a Hail Mary, an all in attempt, first.
Which is pretty much what Hel is doing.

So yeah, Hel's in a losing position where she really doesn't have any good options left. She can't escape the bet while the current world lasts. If the Snarl gets properly trapped, Hel is stuck with soul starvation for an indefenite amount of time. The whole "get dwarves to vote for the world to be destroyed then get all their souls" is a desperate gambit where lots of things could go wrong and chances of success are low, but even if Hel didn't get a single soul, if she can get this world destroyed and start a new game world where she won't be limited by the bet anymore it would still be an improvement for her position.


And that italicized part is IMO a flaw in Hel's plan, though perhaps an indirect one. For the gods who have created millions of worlds, and have had to thanks to the snarl, all gods benefit from a situation where the Snarl can finally be contained. That benefits Hel as well as all of the other gods. Her plan's flaw, in this perspective, is rooted in hr inability to (1) look to the long term, and (2) to look past her own desires.


Thing is, if this world endures, Hel remains stuck with the bet where she only gets soul scraps if that.

Maybe it's beneficial for the gods as a whole in average, but for Hel in particular it would mean being stuck at the bottom of the divine hierarchy for countless eons.

Plus she already survived the snarl for a zillion iterations, what's a zillion more?

[Worldsong]

So yeah, Hel's in a losing position where she really doesn't have any good options left. She can't escape the bet while the current world lasts. If the Snarl gets properly trapped, Hel is stuck with soul starvation for an indefenite amount of time. The whole "get dwarves to vote for the world to be destroyed then get all their souls" is a desperate gambit where lots of things could go wrong and chances of success are low, but even if Hel didn't get a single soul, if she can get this world destroyed and start a new game world where she won't be limited by the bet anymore it would still be an improvement for her position.

That doesn't really address the points I made, namely that from a narrative perspective it'd be dissatisfying (on average, since I imagine there would be people who'd find it hilarious), and that in-universe everyone, including people who you'd think might know better, seems to believe that things would proceed the way Hel expects them to proceed.

Yes there's a rational perspective which shows that Hel could/would take this path even if she isn't sure whether it'd work because even if the soul gathering failed she'd at least be free from the Bet, but it's not the only perspective available (the other being that Hel is fully confident that it'll work and has every reason to believe it will), and narratively speaking there's been a severe lack of indication that the first perspective is the correct one.

The plan being flawed and Hel carrying on with it nonetheless is possible, but context makes it unlikely.

[RatElemental]

In that case it raises the question of how the northern gods were able to lock out the other two pantheons from claiming any dwarven souls in the first place.

Like, what if a dwarf worships one of the southern or western gods, rather than a northern god

Then if they die with honor they go to that god's domain, otherwise Hel gets them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Then if they die with honor they go to that god's domain, otherwise Hel gets them.

I believe that is only the case if they are priests of that Southern/Eastern god. Regular blokes all go to the same generic plane - see the mountain where Roy is surrounded by Southern casualties (even if they do have different queues to access the mountain). Which, if anything, might make the other pantheons uninterested in trying to poach dwarves from the North - there is a substantial cost in clerics, and the payoff is blunted if you don't get their souls in your domain.

Grey Wolf

[RatElemental]

I believe that is only the case if they are priests of that Southern/Eastern god. Regular blokes all go to the same generic plane - see the mountain where Roy is surrounded by Southern casualties (even if they do have different queues to access the mountain). Which, if anything, might make the other pantheons uninterested in trying to poach dwarves from the North - there is a substantial cost in clerics, and the payoff is blunted if you don't get their souls in your domain.

Grey Wolf

While that does make sense, we've only seen the afterlife of people who weren't particularly pious (Roy), that we knew nothing about their piety (most of the Azurites on the mountain), and one person who worshipped the entire pantheon as a whole (the high priest).

If the pious don't get claimed by their respective deities that would be an example of Rich overriding great wheel cosmology, which while he has every right to do so we don't have any solid evidence he has that I'm aware of.

[Fyraltari]

I kind of assumed that the High Priest and the other religious casualties of the battle would be sent to their chosen god(s)’ domain by the deva doing their review.

[Snails]

The bet is between Thor and Hel. I do not see why the other pantheons are required to honor that bet, with respect to dwarves who grow up with a different religion within the continent they dominate.

Or, rather, we have no information to indicate that other pantheons view dwarves as the exclusive property of the Northern pantheon. It is possible that they do. We know of only one very large group of dwarves, and that is in the Northern pantheon -- whether such is evidence of something important is hard to say.

[CriticalFailure]

It seems like the best option at this point is all parties involved just agree to drop the bet. It seems fairly likely that happens eventually.

[D.One]

The bet is between Thor and Hel. I do not see why the other pantheons are required to honor that bet, with respect to dwarves who grow up with a different religion within the continent they dominate.

Or, rather, we have no information to indicate that other pantheons view dwarves as the exclusive property of the Northern pantheon. It is possible that they do. We know of only one very large group of dwarves, and that is in the Northern pantheon -- whether such is evidence of something important is hard to say.


It seems like the best option at this point is all parties involved just agree to drop the bet. It seems fairly likely that happens eventually.

That has been discussed time and time again, and we really don't have a canon description about how the bet thing works in this details, but, if I had to create a theory, I'd go with something like this:

The bet was made during the creation of this world. The gods take turns and accept what the other gods put into the configurations of the world, in order to not create another Snarl. In Hel, or Loki, or Thor's turns, they established, as "rules of the world", that no living creature could be cleric of Hel, and that all the dwarves go to Hel, except for those who die with honor.

If that's so, reversing the bet may be a bit difficult, because involves changing the very rules of the world, but maybe the Gods, in a Godsmoot, may be able to do something like that without having to destroy and rebuild the world (I think it would be similar to updating to a new edition).

[CriticalFailure]

The not changing anything during the world's tenure is probably going to have to go out the window eventually anyways given their efforts to recruit The Dark One. A bet between two Gods who both are unhappy with the situation that can easily be dropped by just treating the dwarves the same as any other mortals is a relatively easy alteration to make compared to bringing The Dark One into the loop.

[Fyraltari]

The bet is between Thor and Hel. I do not see why the other pantheons are required to honor that bet, with respect to dwarves who grow up with a different religion within the continent they dominate.

Or, rather, we have no information to indicate that other pantheons view dwarves as the exclusive property of the Northern pantheon. It is possible that they do. We know of only one very large group of dwarves, and that is in the Northern pantheon -- whether such is evidence of something important is hard to say.

We know that the place they live in is called "The Dwarven Lands", now if there was another naion of dwarves somewhere else, it wouldn,'t be called that. I mean, it might if this was a serious comic with a ASOIF-level of intricate background, but in this comic, there are laces called Nottinstory so I think we can take the names at face value.

Like-wise, the Elven Lands are on th ewestern Continent and every single elf we know of was from there. Not only that, but their gods are a subset of the Western Pantheon for Moot purposes.

[D.One]

... their gods are a subset of the Western Pantheon for Moot purposes.

LOL

I'm not sure if that was your intention, but

LOL

[Fyraltari]

LOL

I'm not sure if that was your intention, but

LOL

I don't get it. :smallconfused:

[Cazero]

I don't get it. :smallconfused:
Given OotS context, "For Moot purposes" means "for the purposes of the Godsmoot". But outside of that context, it becomes a nonsensical statement as "moot" and "purposes" contradict each other. You made a pun.
In unrelated news, I like dissecting frogs.

[Fyraltari]

Given OotS context, "For Moot purposes" means "for the purposes of the Godsmoot". But outside of that context, it becomes a nonsensical statement as "moot" and "purposes" contradict each other. You made a pun.
In unrelated news, I like dissecting frogs.

Oh, I get it.

The Giant did not make that meaning up, you know. The Godsmoot is literally a moot (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moot) of the gods.

[hroþila]

This might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to mention the witena gemot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witenagemot) in this forum, so I'm taking it.

[Heksefatter]

Come to think of it, the greatest flaw in Hel's plan is Hel herself and her impatience.

Follow my thought:

Suppose everything that happened until Durkon's vampirization happens the same way. Then, she gets a High Level Cleric. Instead of sending him to vote in a Godsmoot and makes lots of arrangements for a tiebraker vote to be tampered, she could simply tell Durkon* to be discrete and follow the order to their final destination at Kraagor's gate. There, instead of focusing o Xykon and Team Evil, he could concentrate in trying to destroy the gate, and thus give the other gods a reason to destroy the world.

I mean, the vote was already a close one. If the last gate fell, they would probably decide for "destroy the world".

But she just couldn't wait...

Hel has screwed up repeatedly. In fact, she is pretty immature and childish.

For example, she could just not have revealed what she was trying to do at the Godsmoot. This might have changed two things:

1) Hermod just might not have switched his vote. Hard to say. The gloating and revealing her plan did not help her there, at least.

2) It would have made the opposition to her activities much more half-hearted. Durkula could have pretended that he cared about the souls of the world and so could Hel to a degree. Roy was not certain that Heimdall wasn't right. The Order still probably would have fought Durkula's plans, but they would have been more half-hearted.

This is also pointed out by Loki, how a premature villain gloat from Hel means he is a failure as a parent. Sure, he's being sarcastic, but he's also making a point. Furthermore, we also know that the gods are able to be evasive in stating their motivations for their votes - Thrym at least was evasive and did not open up what he actual motives were.

[KorvinStarmast]

This might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to mention the witena gemot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witenagemot) in this forum, so I'm taking it. Great link, thanks, I'm keeping that one in a bookmark. :smallsmile:

[Xyril]

Hel has certainly made some amateurish mistakes, but I'm not sure biding her time until the Order confronted Xykon would necessarily be the way to go. Keep in mind, there are at least two other sides in play with their own agenda for the gates. Redcloak and Xykon's team might still very well outclass the Order. At least one of them had concrete plans to betray the other. The MitD is a big unknown factor (he's leaning towards helping the good guys, but given his demonstrated lack of knowledge or control of his own abilities, the only thing that is certain is that he'll contribute to the uncertainty of the situation.)

I'm not sure about the whole ritual with the Gate. I vaguely remember someone talking about Team Evil having to control the gate for a while to implement their plan, which would imply that they're doomed to failure (since the gods have stated that all they need is the few minutes warning when the last gate falls to destroy it before the Snarl escapes.) I don't actually know how true that first statement is, since it might have come from misinformation Redcloak was feeding the Xykon or his minions, or an inference made by the paladins as to why Xykon didn't just bum rush the Soon's gate instead of trying to occupy the city. If there's even a chance they can succeed, then the last thing Hel would want to do is to wait and roll the dice. The whole point is that she wants to gain an advantage by exploiting the gods' rules and the rules of her wager, but if the Dark One actually gains control of the Snarl and blackmails to the other gods, I'm pretty sure

Maybe Durkula whacks the gate before Xykon or Redcloak neutralizes him. That's far from certain. Team Evil still outclasses them I think. Everyone else has leveled some, and Roy's gained a few very powerful anti-caster, anti-undead tools, but Xykon's got two, possibly three people with epic levels, and the enemy cleric will be their first or second target. Also, Durkula will have to be pretty manipulative. Destroying the gate is no longer a viable last resort to keep it from falling into enemy hands, so trying to do so would put Durkula alone against multiple hostiles, including a the guy with the shiny new anti-caster, anti-undead abilities.

[deuterio12]

Hel has screwed up repeatedly. In fact, she is pretty immature and childish.


A natural result of being starved of soul food for so long. You try to keep going on just scraps for centuries, let's see how well your malnourished brain works. :smalltongue:

As they say, ""Civilization is two meals and twenty-four hours away from barbarism". Hunger can override all other thoughts pretty fast.



This is also pointed out by Loki, how a premature villain gloat from Hel means he is a failure as a parent. Sure, he's being sarcastic, but he's also making a point.

If keeping your child starving for centuries doesn't count as being a failure as a parent, I don't know what does.

[Xyril]

If keeping your child starving for centuries doesn't count as being a failure as a parent, I don't know what does.

If you give your child a fish, she eats for a day.

If you ruthless withhold your fish from your child, you force her to learn to fish and she eats for a lifetime.

[deuterio12]

If you give your child a fish, she eats for a day.

If you ruthless withhold your fish from your child, you force her to learn to fish and she eats for a lifetime.

Except in this case the parent is sabotaging all of the child's attempts to fish on her own and even when the child manages to catch some fish, the parent calls the big burly alcoholic uncle to burst inside the child's room and take her fresh fish, before the parent follows to take any fish the big burly alocholic uncle missed in the child's room.

[Xyril]

Except in this case the parent is sabotaging all of the child's attempts to fish on her own and even when the child manages to catch some fish, the parent calls his big burly alcoholic uncle to burst inside the child's room and take her fresh fish, before the parent follows to take any fish the big burly alocholic uncle missed in the child's room.

... in which case the child learns to be Aquaman. (The Jason Mamoa one, not the lame one.)

Obviously I'm kidding, but the trope of the well-intentioned parent taking the whole tough love thing way too far is pretty common among evil characters. And Red Foreman. Loki's EC-ness makes both comically bad tough love and just being an abusive parent pretty equally plausible.

[137beth]

The bet is between Thor and Hel. I do not see why the other pantheons are required to honor that bet, with respect to dwarves who grow up with a different religion within the continent they dominate.

Or, rather, we have no information to indicate that other pantheons view dwarves as the exclusive property of the Northern pantheon. It is possible that they do. We know of only one very large group of dwarves, and that is in the Northern pantheon -- whether such is evidence of something important is hard to say.

Hel says the dwarves fall under her preview (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html). I took that to mean that all, or almost all, dwarves come from the northern continent.

Also, IIRC there was a quote by the Giant where he said that almost all dwarves live in a single country, as do the elves.
Nope: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?300492-Questions-about-Gourntonk-and-Ian-Starshine&p=15919361#post15919361) I found the quote I was thinking of, but it only mentions elves and gnomes, not dwarves.

[Squire Doodad]

If keeping your child starving for centuries doesn't count as being a failure as a parent, I don't know what does.

Honestly I'm just impressed you had a kid who was alive for centuries.

[Emanick]

Honestly I'm just impressed you had a kid who was alive for centuries.

Yeah, that's longer than most kids last. Hey, if you kept your kid alive for several times the average human life expectancy, who am I to question your parenting methods?

[deuterio12]

Honestly I'm just impressed you had a kid who was alive for centuries.

That's minimum standard for several races such as all the elven variants.

Also possible in the modern world for a certain definiton of "alive". Like you can keep cancer cells "alive" basically forever as long as you feed them nutrients. How does turning your child into a cancerous mass sounds for parenting?

[D.One]

That's minimum standard for several races such as all the elven variants.

Also possible in the modern world for a certain definiton of "alive". Like you can keep cancer cells "alive" basically forever as long as you feed them nutrients. How does turning your child into a cancerous mass sounds for parenting?

Sounds like Deadpool to me...