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The Neoclassic
2007-10-10, 05:29 PM
I've always been heavily interested in the roleplaying aspect of DnD, much less so in the combat. However, if I want to be a better DM or a better player, I think I need a stronger grasp of the some of the ways to get the most potential out of a character.

So, I'm asking for people to help by throwing in a list of feats, equipment, & other such stats that combine for an optimized (or at least quite strong) 10th level character. They can be any core class with any standard prestige class, but I'm not interested in splatbook material; I don't own it and it's not a part of the SRD (plus, if you look hard enough, you can make really broken characters with enough splatbook options). I'd like builds that could work with any race, and preferably standard PH/DMG equipment/feats/etc too.

Thanks for any suggestions; I expect to have my mind quite expanded by your brilliant builds. :smallsmile:

Yeygresh
2007-10-10, 05:35 PM
We actually have a Character Builder Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18300) here, but seeing as you've already made a topic for it I'll give you a hand.

Do you have any Race/Class that you prefer?

The Neoclassic
2007-10-10, 05:42 PM
Ooh, thanks for that thread. It will certainly come in handy.

Here, I was hoping to get any of the core classes (Fighter? Wizard? Cleric?) with a standard race (preferrably humans or elves, I suppose). It's more to get a general idea of how to choose a good combination of feats and equipment than make one specific character.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-10, 07:10 PM
Ooh, thanks for that thread. It will certainly come in handy.

Here, I was hoping to get any of the core classes (Fighter? Wizard? Cleric?) with a standard race (preferrably humans or elves, I suppose). It's more to get a general idea of how to choose a good combination of feats and equipment than make one specific character.

"How to optimize", in general, is a hard question to answer. Core makes it a bit easier, since there's a limited number of feats and such.

You've probably heard by now that in core, the spellcasters are significantly more powerful at most levels. That's a starting point.

For example, level 10. Let's say we're making a wizard.
What are his options for PrCs? Loremaster is the only one availible, in core. What's the cost of entry? Keeping two Knowledge skills maxed (which we'd do anyway), three magic item creation or metamagic feats (which we'd want anyway; a wizard gets Scribe Scroll for free anyway), and Skill Focus, which is an actual cost, in that it's not a good feat to take normally. We also won't progress familiar abilities (big deal) and lose the wizard bonus feats
The benefits are a whole bunch of abilities--one of which is actually a bonus feat, and others which are equivalent, plus some unique stuff.
So, Loremaster's pretty much a no-brainer for a core wizard. We can't enter until after level 7, which means the wizard will take Wizard 7/Loremaster 10, and fill the remaining levels out with Archmage, which is fairly obviously potent--it lets you do valuable things you otherwise couldn't (such as turn touch spells into ranged touch spells).

So, Wizard 7/Loremaster 3.
Race-wise, we want a bonus to our Intelligence. The only 0-LA race (level adjustment is bad, bad, bad, especially for spellcasters), core-wise, that grants that is the Grey Elf, an elven subrace in the MM. So we take that.
Other good races for wizards are Human (good for pretty much anything), Dwarf (CON bonus, CHA penalty, other useful abilities), and Gnome (CON bonus, small size).

Feats, we want three item creation-and-or-metamagic feats. At level 10, we only have 5th level spells, so a lot of metamagic isn't so useful. Extend has a low cost and gives you the benefit of keeping some spells going all or most of the day; take Extend. Wondrous Items are more common than any other kind; take Craft Wondrous Item. You get Scribe Scroll for free.
Let's take Improved Initiative at level 1 (going first means you can get yourself out of harm's way and start casting faster; at high levels, it becomes really important), then Craft Wondrous Item at level 3, and Extend Spell as the level 5 bonus feat. At level 6 we take Skill Focus: some Knowledge, because we need it to enter Loremaster. So we have our feats.

What makes or breaks a wizard are his spells. What makes some spells good and others suck? It's kinda complicated; it boils down to spells that don't offer saves, lengthy buffs (or potent combat buffs), and potent debuffs being the best. That makes spells like Overland Flight (hours-long very useful buff), Ray of Enfeeblement (no save, effective debuff), Haste (effective combat buff--gives each melee type in your party an extra attack), and Fear (a debuff that takes enemies out of the fight entirely) good ones to take. There's a lengthier examination of useful and not so useful spells availible in the Being Batman guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) to wizards.

Specialization: the same guide explains why it's a good idea; core-only, being a Conjurer or Transmuter with Enchantment and Evocation banned is probably the best idea. Evocation is mostly damage spells, which are lackluster, and Enchantment can mostly be replicated by other schools (Will-save debuffs) plus stops working very well at higher levels. Conjuration and Transmutation are very potent schools, with useful spells at each level.

At level 10, an optimized wizard should have Overland Flight up all the time--it lasts 10 hours/day; few parties adventure longer than that. That will keep you entirely or almost entirely safe from a large portion of creatures you'll be fighting.
Teleport is a must to know, because it gets the party around vastly more quickly than was possible before. Other good spells are Baleful Polymorph (takes an enemy out of the fight entirely) and Wall of Stone.
Good level 4 spells to know are Greater Invisiblity (a very potent defense, and it's great to put on scrolls), Fear (can effectively defeat an entire group of enemies), Black Tentacles (keeps the enemies in an area grappled and makes it tough for them to move), Dimension Door (to get yourself out of danger), and Enervation (no save, potent effect).
For level 3, you're looking at, say, Haste, Slow, Dispel Magic, and Ray of Exhaustion.
For level 2 spells, Alter Self is very powerful, Glitterdust is a remarkably effective debuff, False Life helps you effectively have more HP, Web lets you control the battlefield, and Rope Trick lets you rest safely.
And so on.

The result is a wizard that flies around all day, rests in safety, and in combat, throws out effective debuffs both against groups and against individual enemies; plus, he buffs the party, generally doing something like dropping a Haste at the start of a fight.


Overall, what you're looking for with optimization are things that are going to apply on a regular basis (this is why Great Cleave is a bad feat, and even Cleave isn't so great), give a significant bonus (making Weapon Focus mediocre), let you do useful things you couldn't (Combat Reflexes), and synergize (Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and a reach weapon--trip people who approach you). You also want to cover your weaknesses.

As for items--remember that several smaller bonuses that stack are cheaper than one large bonus. For example, 8000 gp buys a Ring of Protection +2... or +2 armor, a Ring of Protection +1, and an Amulet of Natural Armor +1.

psychoticbarber
2007-10-10, 07:14 PM
The most general advice I have is to plan with a destination in mind. Also, typically, the fewer things a character does well, the better that character does them.

The Neoclassic
2007-10-10, 07:18 PM
Thanks for the help so far!

Reel On, Love, you have been extraordinarily helpful! I think I'll use that to build a practice optimized 10th level wizard. Also, your note on feats was very good; I never stopped to think how Cleave and Great Cleave are rather limited in their applications.

Any more ideas?

Fax Celestis
2007-10-10, 07:18 PM
The most general advice I have is to plan with a destination in mind. Also, typically, the fewer things a character does well, the better that character does them.

Not necessarily: a fighter with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization (all in longsword) does one thing very well: hit things with a longsword. However, he's still not very good at it.

Yeygresh
2007-10-10, 07:23 PM
Fighter8/(Wiz2 or Sorc2)

32 point buy
STR16(+2)
DEX12
CON14
INT10/16
WIS8
CHA16/10

Feats:
Mounted Combat
Ride By Attack
Spirited Charge
Power Attack
Weapon Focus(Lance)
Greater Weapon Focus(Lance)

Take the spell Mount.

On a charge, you deal 1d8+6+15(Power Attack and Charge)x4=102 damage average

You also have a few extra feats that you can spend on whatnot. If you can get ahold of the books I recommend Leap Attack(CA) and Shock Trooper(CW).

For further levels you can put more into caster levels and go Fighter8/Wizard5/Eldritch Knight7, giving you 6th level spells, +17BAB, and passable saves(Take weasel familiar) and HD; or go Fighter6/Sorc1/Barb13 for rage, DR3/-, great HD, passable saves, and +19BAB.

For armor, take an Animated Shield so you can still THW the lance, and a Twilight(PHB2) Mithral Breastplate(Assuming you go Eldritch Knight).

psychoticbarber
2007-10-10, 07:23 PM
Not necessarily: a fighter with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization (all in longsword) does one thing very well: hit things with a longsword. However, he's still not very good at it.

That's why I said typically :smalltongue:. Not true in all cases.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-10, 07:50 PM
Thanks for the help so far!

Reel On, Love, you have been extraordinarily helpful! I think I'll use that to build a practice optimized 10th level wizard. Also, your note on feats was very good; I never stopped to think how Cleave and Great Cleave are rather limited in their applications.

Any more ideas?

Great Cleave is a great example of something to avoid. Cleave itself is limited--you have to kill a creature rather than having someone else finish it off (something that happens how often per combat?), and have *another* creature within reach while you do it.
Great Cleave requires you to do that, and then one hit kill the second creature, too, to get *any* use out of it. You might miss with any of the attack rolls, and if the creatures are weak enough to one-shot, they're weak enough that you could take another couple rounds to clean them up and have taken a different feat.

Let's take a human Fighter 10--something that is in itself not an optimal choice, but:
H: Combat Expertise
1: Combat Reflexes
Ftr 1: Improved Trip

At first level, the character--using a reach weapon (Guisarme, since it's the only non-exotic reach weapon that can trip)--can get AoOs on people moving in to fight him, and can trip people he attacks and then get a free attack.

Why tripping? Because disarming is more situational (many enemies have no weapons), and you have a bonus +8 to disarm a tripped person anyway (you get +4 on your attack roll, they get -4 on theirs, because they're prone).

Ftr 2: Power Attack - a staple of damage dealing. It synergizes well with Improved Trip, since the tripping attack is a touch attack (and thus needs to hit a lower, often vastly lower, AC) and the follow-up attack gets a +4 since the target is prone.
3: Iron Will - help cover the Fighter's weak will save.
Ftr 4: Improved Initiative - going first is always good.
Ftr 6: Cleave - it's of limited usefulness, but it does offer an extra attack sometimes, and works better with reach.
6: Imp. Bullrush - control the battlefield further by pushing people around.
Ftr 8: Blind-Fight - it helps you deal with concealment.
9: Weapon Focus - not much in core to take that's better at this point.
Ftr 10: Weapon Specialization - see above.

You'll obviously want Enlarge Person cast on you by the party mage (buy him a wand, maybe) so you have an even greater reach. You'll want to compensate for your reach weapon (which means you can't attack squares next to you) by having armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet (which will let you do that).

Now, if we don't limit ourselves to Fighter, we can take two or four levels of fighter to help us get all the really important feats faster, and get another class--say, Barbarian--in there. A Fighter 4/Barbarian 6 has Rage 2/day (the strength boost makes it easier to trip), a higher hit die, better saves than the straight fighter (Rage gives a Will save boost while we're at it), and (Improved) Uncanny Dodge. You lose three feats--let's make them Weapon Spec, Cleave, and Weapon Focus. Or Cleave, Blind-Fight, and Improved Bullrush if you want to focus on AB/damage.

Now, we're barbarian/fighters. Looking further, the Horizon Walker class can get immunity to fatigue (Desert terrain)--Barbarians get fatigued after Rage. And at level 6, we can get Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds as a planar terrain ability! That's great mobility. At level 7, we can get Tremorsense.

So, 7 levels of Horizon Walker, leaving 13 others, that's good stuff. Knowledge; Geography makes entry a bit iffy, though.
Over 20 levels, we can take, say, Ranger 1 (skills)/Fighter 4 (feats)/Barbarian 8/Horizon Walker 7. You get the Track feat for free (keep Survival maxed; it's a class skill for everyone but fighter, who can cross-closs it), you can still do your reach-weapon-combat-reflexes-and-tripping thing, and you're overall more survivable, with better saves. Meanwhile, a straight Fighter would be reduced to taking crap like Dodge and Mobility.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-11, 12:00 PM
That's why I said typically :smalltongue:. Not true in all cases.

Not true in general. Synergy is an amazing thing, and can count for a lot of your effectiveness at a role in D&D.

Telonius
2007-10-11, 12:36 PM
Next up: Cleric. These guys are pretty darn hard to screw up in core. The biggest decisions that you'll make in creating the characters are where to place his stats and which Domain to choose.

Wisdom is the obvious priority. Get it, love it, use it to call forth divine fury upon thine enemies. Strength is secondary, if you're going to be primarily a fighter-Cleric. Constitution is another useful one to have, as it both improves your Concentration check, and gives you precious, precious HP (which you will expend as you draw attacks of opportunity trying to fit the pieces of the Barbarian back together after he's been torn apart by the Dire Badger, again).

Charisma is an often-neglected Cleric stat. If you're going beyond Core, it can grow in importance, as some feats let you trade Turn Undead attempts for cheesy combinations. In Core, you can dump as you see fit, unless you're serving as the party face. (Try to get the Rogue, Bard, Paladin, or Sorcerer to fill this role if you can).

Dex is ... problematic for Clerics. Sometimes it's beneficial to go last in initiative order - wait to see what's coming, which buffs you need to cast. Still, it's good to have for the Cleric's poor reflex save as well as a bit of additional AC. I wouldn't put too much in here.

For Domains, the choice is really up to you. The usefulness of some of the domain powers is very, very campaign- and DM-dependent. Some almost-always useful Domains: Magic, Healing, Travel, War.

Now, Feats. Don't underestimate the power of some Craft feats. A Wand of "Cure x Wounds" is always, always going to come in handy. Coordinate with your party Wizard to see which craft feats he isn't taking. Remember, you two can collaborate on creating items.

Extend Spell is probably among the most important for Clerics. Your hours per level spells suddenly turn into 24-hour buffs if you choose wisely.

Improved and Extra Turning are decent for undead-heavy campaigns. You might want to spend feats on them, you might not; really depends on the campaign. (Exception: if non-core materials are allowed, pick up Extra Turning as soon as you can).

One matter of some debate is Concentration checks, and how best to buff them. Because you'll be the combat medic, you'll be up close to melee a lot more often than the flying/invisible/nobody-here-but-us-chickens wizard. Most people on the boards think that it's a better idea to take Skill Focus: Concentration. It gives +3 to Concentration checks in all circumstances. However, a minority believe that Combat Casting, which gives +4 to Concentration checks while casting on the defensive or while grappling/pinned, is the better pick. Have a look at the feats and pick for yourself, but I personally think that a +3 all the time is better than +4 sometimes, +0 sometimes.

The Neoclassic
2007-10-11, 01:02 PM
The help so far has been great! I do have a few more questions though, if you're up to them:

1) Would it be worth it to get Skill Focus (Concentration) and Combat Casting if the cleric's job is healing above all else (as opposed to as much combat or buffing)? Or would that just be redundant?

2) Should clerics wear heavy armor in most circumstances? Are there times when they shouldn't? The only problem I can think of is that it slows them down, so if the party is spread out, running around to heal could be hampered by it.

3) What are some good equipment choices (by class)? I find myself continuing to go back to wands, weapons, armor, and cloaks of resistance. What other choices would be good? Any particular armor or weapon enchantments worth getting above others?

Oh, I really like the advice on tripping with the fighter. I've never used tripping in combat before, so that will not only give me a way to optimize but also a way to make combat more interesting!

Kyeudo
2007-10-11, 01:11 PM
Here's the simplest optimized build I can think of:
Dwarven Druid
Take Wild Spell at 6th level
Maximize your Wisdom, then your Constitution
Have a high enough Intelligence to have max ranks in Spellcraft and Concentration
Spend most of your time in Wild Shape
Proceed to self buff and own encounters

Anything extra that you can add to this is purely gravy. Item Creation feats, Extend Spell, Spell Focus(conjuration), and Augment Summoning will probably find their way into your build at some point, as well as some ranks in Handle Animal and a couple of Knowledge skills.

AKA_Bait
2007-10-11, 01:25 PM
I'm surprised no one has purt forward this question yet but, what level are you starting at and what level do you expect to finish at? At different levels different builds have a range of stregnths and weaknesses. Part of really optimizing is thinking not just about how powerful will will be at 20th but also how powerful you will be at x level and how powerful you will be as you go along. Sometimes there is a tradeoff there (although not much of one with primary spell casters past level 5).

So where are you starting, where are you finishing, and do you want to be the most powerful all the time, at the end, or at the beginning?



Take Wild Spell at 6th level



Um, do you mean Natural Spell?

Yeril
2007-10-11, 01:30 PM
1) if you have 2 feats to spare then go for it, but remember that Maxing Concentration isn't needed considering its unlikley you will be facing incredibly high Dc's.

2) True, the spell Longstrider from travel domain can help this alittle bit.

3) Armour you want to get, Medium armour Mithraled would help, as for weapons not needed as much due to a non-melee build, however carrying somthing for emergency always helps. Resistance is good, Cause if you get snuffed, your whole party will soon be snuffed without healing.

If you buff your damage alittle and are allowed noncore, the Knockdown feat its great, and grab a +1 Sweeping Reach weapon, Improved trip, Enlarge self too. Bam you have +16 to trip from just Misc bonuses, and can do it at a range of 20ft, AND you can do it as a free action whenever you deal more than 10 damage in a melee attack.[/QUOTE]

The Neoclassic
2007-10-11, 01:30 PM
Just as an easy point to go from, any core 10th level character. Some of the builds so far have gone farther, but if I can get an optimized CR 10 character out, then I'll be happy. Thanks for asking.

The druid build is neat, Kyeudo.

EDIT: Just saw what Yeril posted. Good answers, much appreciated. Your avatar by Dr. Bath rocks, by the way.

Kyeudo
2007-10-11, 01:30 PM
The help so far has been great! I do have a few more questions though, if you're up to them:

1) Would it be worth it to get Skill Focus (Concentration) and Combat Casting if the cleric's job is healing above all else (as opposed to as much combat or buffing)? Or would that just be redundant?


No. Do not combat heal unless absolutely nessacery. Heal after combat. Dealing damage and killing an enemy is effectively preventing any further damage that that enemy could do. A pound of prevention is worth a ton of cure. Heal Bot clerics are underplaying their effectiveness



2) Should clerics wear heavy armor in most circumstances? Are there times when they shouldn't? The only problem I can think of is that it slows them down, so if the party is spread out, running around to heal could be hampered by it.


Almost always yes. This allows you to dump stat Dex for the most part. See above as to why not to worry about running around healing people. The only way you wouldn't want heavy armor is if some domain or class abilty you have only works in lighter armor, but this is rarely worth it.



3) What are some good equipment choices (by class)? I find myself continuing to go back to wands, weapons, armor, and cloaks of resistance. What other choices would be good? Any particular armor or weapon enchantments worth getting above others?


There are the basics: Magic Weapon, Magic Armor, Magic Shield, Stat Booster Items, wands of cure light wounds (wands of higher level cure spells are overpriced), and extra-dimensional storage space. Everyone wants these.

As for Cloaks of Resistance, It is probably feasible to dip into paladin for two levels for classes and builds that require a moderate to high Charisma score and then use a Cloak of Charisma instead.

Wizards and Clerics love Metamagic Rods.



Oh, I really like the advice on tripping with the fighter. I've never used tripping in combat before, so that will not only give me a way to optimize but also a way to make combat more interesting!

Tripping dies after you regularly face high strength monsters of size large or larger. You just can't do it well enough after the first 10 levels to compete.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-11, 01:37 PM
Also, this might sound as a surprise, but monks are horrible. They look pretty damn fine good, what with the many abilities, but the problem is that all those abilities mostly don't synergize, which makes 'em situational (good example: flurry of blows and fast movement. Can't use both of them in one round, isn't a benefit). And the big damage the SEEM to do is counteracted by power attack, special attacks, and tons other things. Their biggest selling point is their good saves, fast movement, and tremendous survivability. If there is ONE thing monks outmatch more or less anyone, is survive. It's not too useful, but it's their job.

Telonius
2007-10-11, 01:39 PM
1. Not really, it would be redundant. Remember, you have a limited amount of Feats available. By level 20, you'll only have seven, eight if you're a human. Your goal is to get to a (15+spell level) bonus on your Concentration check as soon as possible. This will give you an automatic success on the Concentration check needed to cast a spell defensively, avoiding all attacks of opportunity. Getting there is extremely useful. Getting there fast is nice. But after you get there, the extent of the benefit is that you can spend your skill points on things besides Concentration. Getting there fast is worth one feat. Getting there really fast isn't worth two.

2. In most circumstances, yes. This is actually one of the reasons why Dwarvish clerics are fairly popular - they don't lose anything by wearing heavy armor. (Of course they still only move 20 feet anyway, but that's another topic). If the Cleric has a low Dexterity (and Dex is a commonly-dumped Cleric stat), then Plate Mail makes the most sense.

If the Cleric has a higher dex, a Mithral Breastplate is preferable. This is the choice for some Archer clerics - clerics that are either Elves or take the War domain for a god with a bow as their favored weapon. (EDIT: Not really all that useful for builds that have a non-core feat, Zen Archery, that allows you to use Wisdom on your ranged attacks).

Most clerics usually are up in melee along with the fighters. If that's the case, you typically won't need to move more than 20 feet to get to the downed comrade. It's only when you're farther away - say, sniping at the monster with arrows, for instance - that you really have to worry about getting to the guy immediately. There are lots of exceptions, though, so take this with a grain of salt.

3. For equipment - don't neglect the mundane. There have been some particularly embarrassing campaigns when nobody in the party remembered to buy rope. Chalk, caltrops, oil, grappling hooks... all that stuff has its uses.

On to magic items. Cloaks of Resistance are great. Handy Haversacks (and other bags of holding) are incredibly useful.

For the Wizard, wands should be the primary source of your blasting. For any spellcaster, buy scrolls for utility spells that you either don't know, use only once in a blue moon, or that you can't put into a wand. Everybody should have a couple potions of Cure Serious or Critical as soon as you can afford them. These are for emergency, "Oh crap the Cleric's being grappled and can't get to me," purposes only.

Stat-boosting items are your friends. Buy them for your primary casting stats ASAP.

For both weapons and armor, special materials are important. In most cases, you'll want mithral versions of whatever armor you have. If you're a fighter, it's usually a good idea to have a couple spare +1 swords of various materials (silver, cold iron, etc) just in case you run into things with damage reduction.

Some of my favorite enchantments for weapons are Keen and Holy (or Unholy if you're running an Evil campaign). Increased threat range is always good, particularly for a Rogue. Just remember, this usually doesn't stack with any other increased threat range bonuses - no crits on a roll of 10 for you! And for Holy - really, you're the hero. You're going to be fighting evil stuff. Ghost Touch is fairly useful, too; since it's very hard to hurt incorporeal things otherwise. Seeking is great on Bows. The rest of the Core weapon enhancements are situational, and depend on the campaign.

For Armor: Invulnerability is overrated. By the time you can afford it, everything you're fighting will be magical. Fortification is worth the price, and so are the Resistance armors. Glamered is terrific for fluff purposes, but if you're looking for battle optimization look elsewhere.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-11, 01:48 PM
The help so far has been great! I do have a few more questions though, if you're up to them:

1) Would it be worth it to get Skill Focus (Concentration) and Combat Casting if the cleric's job is healing above all else (as opposed to as much combat or buffing)? Or would that just be redundant?
No. Neither of them are worth the cleric's time--remember that the DC to cast defensively (and therefore not provoke AoOs) is only 15; you'll be making that 100% of the time pretty soon.
The cleric's job is *not* healing above all else. Occasionally healing in combat is good (especially once you get the Heal spell), but most of the time, you're better off saving healing for after combat and using a Wand of Cure Light Wounds--save your spell slots.
The point was that if you feel you *must* get one of them, SF:Concentration is better than the pitiful Combat Casting.

The cleric's job is buffing, out-of-combat condition removal, and smashing things. Clerics can often even prioritize Strength over Wisdom. Why? Because clerics will be casting very few spells with DCs; most spells will be buffs, heals, etc.


2) Should clerics wear heavy armor in most circumstances? Are there times when they shouldn't? The only problem I can think of is that it slows them down, so if the party is spread out, running around to heal could be hampered by it.
Much like other STR-based fighters, heavy armor should be worn most of the time. The only times you shouldn't are when you know you'll need it off for some reason (e.g. you need to swim across the lake and don't have any other way of getting across, or something).


In regards to Turn Undead: it's a trap. Notice how it's based on your cleric levels, i.e. hit dice, and notice how it lets you turn a certain amount of HD of undead, and undead of up to your level+some number.
Well, take a look at some of the higher-CR undead, even at CR 10 or so. By and large, undead (like all other monsters) gain hit dice much faster than CR--a CR 10 undead could reasonably have 16 to 20 HD. That means that turning is going to get less and less effective as you go up in levels.



3) What are some good equipment choices (by class)? I find myself continuing to go back to wands, weapons, armor, and cloaks of resistance. What other choices would be good? Any particular armor or weapon enchantments worth getting above others?
In general, you want some of everything good--lots of smaller things > one big thing. Generally, stat-boosters, armor, weapons, and, yes, cloaks of resistance are a priority. A Wand of Cure Light Wounds (and another whenever you run out) is good for the party.

Clerics don't need to buy weapons/armor with more than a +1 AC enhancement: they have the Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment spells, which are hours/level. They can, however, eventually buy the Bead of Karma (under Strand of Prayer Beads in the SRD/DMG): it boosts your CL by 4 for 10 minutes. Cast GMW and MV in those 10 minutes, and the bonuses increase by +1; as a result, a 12th level cleric with a bead can be making weapons and armor +4.

Weapon enhancements: Keen isn't as good as it looks. Criticals don't add that much damage overall. For damage enhancements, avoid Flaming and Frost; at lower levels it's OK, but the higher you go the more things start being resistant. Shocking gets through a bit more, but expect the electricity damage to be resisted some of the time. Holy, however, is pretty handy. At higher levels, Speed is going to be your friend. Wounding is also worth buying.

Armor-wise, unless you're a cleric, or have one casting Magic Vestment on you, you want +X armor before armor properties. After that, wait for Heavy Fortification.

Spellcasters like metamagic rods. At first, the cheap ones are your friend (Lesser Rod of Extend Spell = very useful, 3000 gp); at high levels, things like lesser/regular rods of Quicken are invested in.

Make sure you can fly at high levels.

Rings of Protection are better than Amulets of Natural Armor; the AC applies in more situations (i.e. it's added to touch AC as well as flat-footed AC). However, a +1 of each is better than a +2 of one--half the price.


Oh, I really like the advice on tripping with the fighter. I've never used tripping in combat before, so that will not only give me a way to optimize but also a way to make combat more interesting!
The cleric can do this too. If he worships a cause rather than a deity and decides that the guisarme is his cause's favored weapon--or takes a proficiency feat or a Fighter level, less preferable--he gets proficiency. You do need a better DEX than normal clerics.

Human Cleric:
H: Combat Expertise
1: Improved Trip
War domain: proficiency & Weapon Focus
3: Combat Reflexes
6: Power Attack
9: Quicken Spell
and so on.

Cleric melee: at level 1, you might be casting Bless or something; at level 6 you get Divine Favor at +2 AB/damage, and at 7 you get the mighty Divine Power. At level 9 you get 5th level spells, which lets you cast Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor in one round. Alternatively, if you get time to buff before the fights, Divine Power and then Righteous Might are your friend.

Telonius
2007-10-11, 01:57 PM
I would put one caveat about the Cleric's role. It's definitely true that it's not the Cleric's job to heal the Barbarian up to 105 HP from 98 HP during combat. However, if somebody's about to seriously, for-real, die, it is the Cleric's job to heal (or at least stabilize) him. Resurrection spells are expensive and powerful, and a drag on the whole group's resources. Only the most expensive and powerful of them don't result in level loss.

Kyeudo
2007-10-11, 02:17 PM
I would put one caveat about the Cleric's role. It's definitely true that it's not the Cleric's job to heal the Barbarian up to 105 HP from 98 HP during combat. However, if somebody's about to seriously, for-real, die, it is the Cleric's job to heal (or at least stabilize) him. Resurrection spells are expensive and powerful, and a drag on the whole group's resources. Only the most expensive and powerful of them don't result in level loss.

That falls under the heading of "Absolutely Nessacery." No one with a heal spell prepped lets a comrade die if its possible to save him.

It's just that a CSW spell heals 3d8+5, an average of 13.5 hp recovered, while an enemy spellcaster can dish out 5d6 damage with a single Fireball, an average of 17.5 points of damage, to the whole party. Its usualy more expedient to stop the spellcaster from chucking Fireballs than to recover the Figter's hp when in combat.

If your healing spell is the difference between Life and Death for a party member, HEAL!!! but otherwise buff the Fighter or yourself and attack.

greenknight
2007-10-11, 04:44 PM
Outside of Core, Wizards are potentially more powerful than Clerics, but in a Core Only game, I believe a Cleric with the Magic and Trickery Domains is better (those particular Domains grant important spells and Domain Powers which allow the Cleric to duplicate most of the Wizard's abilities). For high level games, Clerics already get Gate, which is one of the most overpowered spells in the game, and Miracle allows them to duplicate the effects of any 7th level spell or lower (including Druid, Wizard, Bard, Ranger and Paladin spells), so there isn't a whole lot a Core Wizard can do that a Core Cleric can't, or at least get access to. On the other hand, the Cleric has better saves, hit dice and can cast spells with no chance of failure while wearing any type of armor.

One other thing to keep in mind is that spellcasters whose spells are powered by Wisdom or Charisma can benefit significantly from Polymorph any Object. That can be cast on them at any time and effectively replaces their Strength, Dexterity, Constitution (although this still doesn't change HP) and Intelligence scores. And if you choose your new form carefully, it can easily be a permanent transformation. This tactic works better the more monsters there are to choose from, so non-Core games give the most choice, but even in Core there's some good ones available, particularly if you can pick up the Outsider type. That said, the Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange spells are generally (and rightly) considered to be cheese, so you might not want to use this tactic.

Armads
2007-10-12, 01:44 AM
a few good spells to cast as a cleric
Divine Favor: +3 luck bonus to attack at damage at ECL 9. It's a luck bonus, so it should pretty much stack with everything
Divine Power: MAKES YOUR BAB FULL, and gives you a +6 enhancement bonus to strength.
Extended Shield of Faith: Get this via an lesser extend rod of metacheesyness, or via the extend spell feat. At ECL 12, when it duplicates a ring of protection +5, it lasts 4 hours, so if you spare 3 2nd level slots to it (or 3 1st level ones if you use the rod of cheesyness), then you can effectively get a continuous ring of protection +5
Extended Barkskin: If you take the plant domain, you should use this too. It's the same as Shield of Faith, only it replicates an amulet of natural armor.

I wouldn't cast righteous might in all circumstances, as it might cause problems in a dungeon (don't ever cast it in a kobold warren if your DM is using the improved kobolds. You WILL die).

Combat Casting and Skill Focus (concentration) are a trap. By level 10, you should have a mod of +12 at least (assuming your con is 14).

Reel On, Love
2007-10-12, 01:48 AM
Extended Shield of Faith: Get this via an lesser extend rod of metacheesyness, or via the extend spell feat. At ECL 12, when it duplicates a ring of protection +5, it lasts 4 hours, so if you spare 3 2nd level slots to it (or 3 1st level ones if you use the rod of cheesyness), then you can effectively get a continuous ring of protection +5
Except that Shield of Faith is minutes/level, not 10 min/level. Doesn't work.


Extended Barkskin: If you take the plant domain, you should use this too. It's the same as Shield of Faith, only it replicates an amulet of natural armor.

Except there are better domains than the plant domain, and you only get one domain slot per day.