Need help making a 3.5 character where sneak attack damage can crit

[balbonuss]

Hello all!

I have joined a group that has a house rule where sneak attack damage is allowed to crit which sounds crazy to me. I really want to make a character that can benefit from this house rule cause it sounds like a lot of fun, but I am at a loss at what kind of character to make or play as I'm generally new to 3.5.

We are starting from level one and are playing in a dwarven mountain, I have also gotten the okay from the dm to play as a whisper gnome if that helps. In terms of sources allowed is most of the complete series and some other stuff like Ultimate feats.

That's the gist of it thanks for the advice!

Edit ~ forgot to mention that the game takes place in Ebberon

[exelsisxax]

keen kaorti resin kukri for 15-20 crit range on a x4 weapon and TWF for all the attacks? Then just as much sneak and BaB as you can get to make the crits insane and to make sure they confirm.

Because letting sneak damage crit is indeed totally crazy.

[heavyfuel]

Anything from a crit-fishing build will work.

Keen kukris and TWF are the way to go.

Try not to break the game by using stuff like Kaorti Resin (which makes the critical of slashing weapon become x4) and you should be good.


Also, what happens in your game if you have the Telling Blow feat from Player's Handbook 2? Normally it's a sub-par feat, but in your game it might as well be a slice of fried gold

[liquidformat]

Checkout the [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)

I would suggest: Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 4/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler +11 with Daring Outlaw feat and a couple Kukri.

[Quertus]

A good TWF Rogue build should win the game; a great TWF Rogue build - especially a well-supported one - should actually break the game (via infinite attacks*).

Balance to the group.

Also, Know your GM. UMD is awesome… if he'll let you buy stuff. Will he? Can you expect WBL? How does he handle consumables?

* At higher level

[AnimeTheCat]

Marital stance: blood in the water, though I think an errata made it less good.

[AvatarVecna]

Marital stance: blood in the water

Top 10 Marriage Problems Nobody Warns You About

[heavyfuel]

I think an errata made it less good.

What errata?

[AnimeTheCat]

Top 10 Marriage Problems Nobody Warns You About
Whoops! Thank you mobile phone auto correct lmao.


What errata?
The incomplete one that turns in to an errata for one of the completes halfway through iron heart surge or something... like I said "I think".

[heavyfuel]

The incomplete one that turns in to an errata for one of the completes halfway through iron heart surge or something... like I said "I think".

Ah, the actual errata. As in, not one of the many "unofficial errata" out there

I just checked it out. Nothing about Blood in the Water stance in it.

[Anthrowhale]

If you use Sacred Outlaw + Surge of Fortune + Sense Weakness then you can crit on command with lots of sneak attack.

[StevenC21]

Can I ask how we are getting Kukri proficiency? Are y'all seriously burning a feat just for Martial Proficiency: Kukri?

Rogues don't get martial weapon proficiency.

[Zombulian]

Can I ask how we are getting Kukri proficiency? Are y'all seriously burning a feat just for Martial Proficiency: Kukri?

Rogues don't get martial weapon proficiency.

Well considering so far no one has recommended a straight classed Rogue I’d classify that as a non-issue.

[Telonius]

Can I ask how we are getting Kukri proficiency? Are y'all seriously burning a feat just for Martial Proficiency: Kukri?

Rogues don't get martial weapon proficiency.

Pick a class that gets it; it's mostly assumed that Rogues multiclass at least once (due to the entirely worthless 20th level).

Anyway, the Craven feat is even better than usual for a Rogue in this situation.

[RaiKirah]

Can I ask how we are getting Kukri proficiency? Are y'all seriously burning a feat just for Martial Proficiency: Kukri?

Rogues don't get martial weapon proficiency.

Take a level of Sneak Attack Fighter (UA) and you're golden. Make it Hit-and-Run and you're golden+

[liquidformat]

Can I ask how we are getting Kukri proficiency? Are y'all seriously burning a feat just for Martial Proficiency: Kukri?

Rogues don't get martial weapon proficiency.

I always forget that they took away kukri proficiency from Rogues in the move from 3.0 to 3.5. But it is moot anyways as everyone pointed out all the suggested builds have kukri prof...

[Eldariel]

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10. Cast Hunter's Mercy (from a Wand or whatever). Cast Hunter's Eye and shoot. Boom, x3 crit straight out of the box for a few fistfuls of d6's. Of course, it's nothing special in the grand scheme of things but probably the best home for this. Hunter's Eye on a full caster (you should have Practiced Spellcaster to maximize your caster level) gives you a ton of Sneak Attack and Hunter's Mercy guarantees a crit.

[RNightstalker]

Depending on what sources are available:
Fighter 4-TWF feats

One level dips that give SA at 1st level:
Justiciar of Taiia
Spellthief
Avenger
Nightsong Enforcer
Guild Thief

Misc:
Swordsage-1--taken at the right level will give you access to Assassin's Stance: +2D6 SA

Put the rest into Rogue

Magic Items:
Rogue's Vest-+1D6
Bracers of Murder-+2 atk & dam when SA, reroll 1's!!
Ring of Spell Storing-have party wizard cast Greater Blink into it so you can cast it and always attack from concealment, hence SA

Weapon Enchantments:
Deadly Precision
Assassination
Splitting (for ranged attacks)

Feats:
Craven-+1 SA dam/cl
Law Devotion-helps overcome twf attack penalties (+3, 5, 7 sacred/profane bonus to attack or ac)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If you're willing to sacrifice a hand and a feat, the Arms & Equipment guide has the exotic weapon Stump Knife. Starts with 19-20 crit range... but once you damage the opponent, it's crit range jumps up to 17-20. With Improved Critical or keen that's a 13-20 range!

[Troacctid]

Try not to break the game by using stuff like Kaorti Resin (which makes the critical of slashing weapon become x4) and you should be good.
It doesn't really break the game once you realize it's replacing the weapon's crit rather than upgrading it. Notice the sample kaorti resin dagger has a crit of x4, not 19–20/x4.

[Anthrowhale]

It doesn't really break the game once you realize it's replacing the weapon's crit rather than upgrading it. Notice the sample kaorti resin dagger has a crit of x4, not 19–20/x4.

With this, there's a real preference for the greathammer, since you can cast Greater Might Wallop on it to inflict 8d6 base damage. And if you make it out of Duskwood it's eligible for Brambles/Spikes so base damage is 8d6+10(enhancement) ~=38.

[balbonuss]

Wow, this is all great stuff and thanks for the suggestions guys. I appreciate the advice I'm going through the replies and it's looking really good, thanks again! Oh, I totally forgot to mention that the game takes place in Ebberon if that means anything else.

[RaiKirah]

If you're willing to sacrifice a hand and a feat, the Arms & Equipment guide has the exotic weapon Stump Knife. Starts with 19-20 crit range... but once you damage the opponent, it's crit range jumps up to 17-20. With Improved Critical or keen that's a 13-20 range!

I've been wanting to out together a Stump Knife build for a while now. There are at least two ways to temporarily lose a hand so as to have a Stump available. The Disembodied Hand Warlock invocation and the Spider Hand spell (BoVD). The former has the added benefit of giving you an ad-hock fly speed if you're strong enough to carry yourself, and arguably the hand can use Martial Stances, meaning you can have it carry you around with Island of Blades going to be continuously flanking.

since in your campaign your crits seem to multiply damage dice, you could potentially make use of Hideous Blow in this case , though getting your EB high enough to matter might be difficult (Unseen Seer and or Spellwarp Sniper could maybe work, though qualifying could be difficult). Just some thoughts. :)

[heavyfuel]

It doesn't really break the game once you realize it's replacing the weapon's crit rather than upgrading it. Notice the sample kaorti resin dagger has a crit of x4, not 19–20/x4.

Huh. You are absolutely correct. It's on pages 108 and 110 of Fiend Folio in case anyone else wants to check it out.

Suddenly Kaorti resin weapons went from "broken to the point they should be banned" to "Yeah you can have it. Not like they're ever gonna be worth a feat".

Now we wait for someone to claim that the statblock is wrong

[AvatarVecna]

Huh. You are absolutely correct. It's on pages 108 and 110 of Fiend Folio in case anyone else wants to check it out.

Suddenly Kaorti resin weapons went from "broken to the point they should be banned" to "Yeah you can have it. Not like they're ever gonna be worth a feat".

Now we wait for someone to claim that the statblock is wrong

Bait though it may be..."the statblock is wrong" isn't necessarily an invalid argument. There are plenty of existing magic items whose abilities and price don't line up with the "magic item creation guidelines", but that doesn't mean the guidelines are generally wrong, it just means that those magic items aren't following them (whether those guidelines should be followed is a different argument entirely). The individual dagger is an example item, but it doesn't necessarily define the general rules for doing so. Those rules are defined here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a), not in Fiend Folio*, and the link says the kaorti resin weapon has a crit multiplier of x4 without making any mention as to the critical threat range. The example Ribbon Dagger in the Kaorti section (including in the statblock) doesn't have 19-20 crit threat range, so it seems exceedingly obvious that the designer's intention was that kaorti resin weapons have their whole critical stat changed to 20/x4...but that's not what's written down in the general crafting rules for it.

*: To complicate matters further, the linked article says that FF pg 110 gives "general information regarding kaorti resin items". There's no crafting mechanics in that section, only examples that don't agree with the general crafting mechanics in the article, and it doesn't say "general mechanics" anyway, but that the line is there at all just makes any argument about "which is the primary source on this issue" even muddier.

I can admit to being biased though since I don't really see a huge problem with the interpretation that leads to an 18-20/x4 exotic weapon. Most exotic weapons are a joke that aren't worth anywhere near a whole feat ("ooh a whole +1 damage on average I'm quivering in my boots" or "ooh now I'm allowed to use a bastard sword in a worse fighting style than I could before"), and it's not like even a 2-20/x20 weapon would be broken given it's just a slightly pointier stick for poking people with. But that's just my two coppers.

[heavyfuel]

snip

We are 100% in agreement that exotic weapons are usually worthless, but I do think that 15-20x4 weapons are a big deal. Much like uberchargers, they make the game binary. Either their trick works and the is combat over. Or it doesn't work and they are useless.

If there's rule for interpretation that something doesn't make the game black and white, that's the interpretation I lean towards.

In fact, I usually houserule away anything I feel makes the game too binary. And yes, that includes a spells.

[Anthrowhale]

There is an independent argument here (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,760.0.html) for the "x4 on a 20 only" interpretation.

I also doubt this really matters for balance as 18-20/x4 means you do an extra x.3 (=x1.45-x1.15) damage if all damage is replicated 4 times on a critical hit and all criticals are confirmed. That's a good return on a feat, but other options (shocktrooper, greater might wallop, etc...) often yield greater returns and many things are immune to critical hits anyways.

[Heliomance]

This seems like a time to break out Aptitude kukris and Lightning Maces...

[AvatarVecna]

We are 100% in agreement that exotic weapons are usually worthless, but I do think that 15-20x4 weapons are a big deal. Much like uberchargers, they make the game binary. Either their trick works and the is combat over. Or it doesn't work and they are useless.

If there's rule for interpretation that something doesn't make the game black and white, that's the interpretation I lean towards.

In fact, I usually houserule away anything I feel makes the game too binary. And yes, that includes a spells.

*shrug*

I mean it's kinda difficult to argue with that directly? "This is unbalanced in my home game where I get rid of all the unbalanced crap" seems like a pretty difficult position to disagree with, but it's also an argument that kinda avoids the question of "is this balanced in the game as it exists". Now in fairness is a rigged question anyway, because in a game where magic characters can after a certain point straight-up invent new abilities for themselves that can do anything, it's difficult to declare anything that isn't "make your own superpower that can do anything" as unbalanced, but crit-fishing is something that more...looks impressive than actually is impressive.

If you're making attacks where you hit/confirm-crit on a 2+, where your current multiplier is 15-20/x2, and where all the damage you'd deal is damage that would be multiplied on a crit...if you take EWM (Kaorti version of the weapon I'm currently using) and start wielding that, you will deal...about 46% more damage in the long run. That's it. If you need more than a 2 to hit? It's worse. If you're dealing some damage that doesn't get multiplied on a crit? It's worse. If you don't have as wide a crit threat range? It's worse. If you have a x3 multiplier before taking the kaorti feat, it's worse. If you have a x4 multiplier before taking the kaorti feat, it's useless. If they have type-immunity to crits you don't have a way of bypassing, or if they have fortification? It's useless.

Now, if you're in that situation, where you're not throwing mounds of SA dice on crits or trying to headshot robots or upgrade your scythe instead of your rapier, is dealing half again as much damage in the long run worth a feat? Absolutely. But it's not some end-all be-all of borked mechanics. Kaorti Resin, at least with this interpretation where the article takes precedent, isn't borked because crit-fishing is inherently bad, it's because it's never just Kaorti Resin. On a charging build, EWP Kaorti Falchion is just gonna be worse than Power Attack. And if you have Power Attack, then it's worse than Shock Trooper. And if you have Shock Trooper, then it's worse than Leap Attack. But at that point, you might consider taking it, and it makes all three even worse than they were before. But Kaorti Resin on its own? Even Kaorti Resin plus PA without the others? Meh.

[Zaq]

This seems like a time to break out Aptitude kukris and Lightning Maces...

I mean, that particular combo is pretty busted regardless of whether you can get sneak attack or not. Doesn’t it have a nontrivial chance of going actually infinite?

[Anthrowhale]

I mean, that particular combo is pretty busted regardless of whether you can get sneak attack or not. Doesn’t it have a nontrivial chance of going actually infinite?

This results in an extra attack at most 30% of the time. This applies recursively, so it's a geometric series. The extra damage would therefore be 1/(1-.3) ~= 1.43 damage multiplier. This is decent, but also fairly expensive given the large number of feats required.

Edit: You can abuse this more via 3.0 classes. Take Disciple of Dispater 8 which, with Improved Critical, quadruples the critical threat range. Hence, the kukri could critical on a 9-20 so an extra attack on a critical hit does 1/(1-.6)= x2.5 damage. If you additionally take Weapon Master 7 this becomes a crit on 7-20 implying a 1/(1-.7) = x3.333 damage. These numbers of course only apply when you have a near automatic hit. Getting all of this to work together seems quite difficult though.

At this point of course your build is nearly fully specified. It's:

Evil Human Intermediate Bloodline[Fire] Fighter 5/Weapon Master 7/Disciple of Dispater 8

Human: Two-Weapon Fighting
1. Power Attack
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2: Combat Expertise
3. Weapon Focus {Scimitar}
Bloodline 4:Dodge
Armor of Mobility
Fighter 4: Whirlwind Attack
6. Improved Critical {Scimitar}
9. Disciple of Darkness
12. EWP[Kaorti Resin Scimitar]
15. Weapon Focus (Light Mace)
18. Lightning Mace

Altogether you end up with either 15-20/x5 or 7-20/x5 depending on interpretation. Suppose you use PAO[War Troll], have a +5 inherent bonus to Strength and a +6 enhancement bonus item for 42 Str. Your to-hit is: +43 = +18(BAB)+2(insight)+1(WF)+1(Superior Weapon Focus)+5(enhance)-1(size)+16(Str)+1(Haste). This is good enough to hit a Pit Fiend with high probability on the first iterative causing damage 1d6+24(Str)+5(enhance)+5(collision). If it's 15-20/x5 damage, then you end up with an expected 82.5 damage per hit. If it's 7-20/x5, you end up with an expected 142.5 damage per hit. Factoring in Lightning maces, you end up with 118 and 475 damage per hit, respectively.

[AvatarVecna]

This results in an extra attack at most 30% of the time. This applies recursively, so it's a geometric series. The extra damage would therefore be 1/(1-.3) ~= 1.43 damage multiplier. This is decent, but also fairly expensive given the large number of feats required.

Edit: You can abuse this more via 3.0 classes. Take Disciple of Dispater 8 which, with Improved Critical, quadruples the critical threat range. Hence, the kukri could critical on a 9-20 so an extra attack on a critical hit does 1/(1-.6)= x2.5 damage. If you additionally take Weapon Master 7 this becomes a crit on 7-20 implying a 1/(1-.7) = x3.333 damage. These numbers of course only apply when you have a near automatic hit. Getting all of this to work together seems quite difficult though.

At this point of course your build is nearly fully specified. It's:

Evil Human Intermediate Bloodline[Fire] Fighter 5/Weapon Master 7/Disciple of Dispater 8

Human: Two-Weapon Fighting
1. Power Attack
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2: Combat Expertise
3. Weapon Focus {Scimitar}
Bloodline 4:Dodge
Armor of Mobility
Fighter 4: Whirlwind Attack
6. Improved Critical {Scimitar}
9. Disciple of Darkness
12. EWP[Kaorti Resin Scimitar]
15. Weapon Focus (Light Mace)
18. Lightning Mace

Altogether you end up with either 15-20/x5 or 7-20/x5 depending on interpretation. Suppose you use PAO[War Troll], have a +5 inherent bonus to Strength and a +6 enhancement bonus item for 42 Str. Your to-hit is: +43 = +18(BAB)+2(insight)+1(WF)+1(Superior Weapon Focus)+5(enhance)-1(size)+16(Str)+1(Haste). This is good enough to hit a Pit Fiend with high probability on the first iterative causing damage 1d6+24(Str)+5(enhance)+5(collision). If it's 15-20/x5 damage, then you end up with an expected 82.5 damage per hit. If it's 7-20/x5, you end up with an expected 142.5 damage per hit. Factoring in Lightning maces, you end up with 118 and 475 damage per hit, respectively.

I believe they were thinking of the version that uses Aptitude Kukris, Lightning Maces, and Roundabout Kick.

[RNightstalker]

If you're willing to sacrifice a hand and a feat, the Arms & Equipment guide has the exotic weapon Stump Knife. Starts with 19-20 crit range... but once you damage the opponent, it's crit range jumps up to 17-20. With Improved Critical or keen that's a 13-20 range!

Two doubles equal a triple, so the crit range would be 15-20, not 13-20. It's the same as in 3.0 when Improved Critical stacked with the Keen weapon enchantment.

Would this be a bad time to recommend Sacred Scabbards that will imbue weapons stored in them to with the Bless Weapon spell, which will automatically confirm crits, as long as there aren't any other enchantments related to crits on the weapon?

[Anthrowhale]

I believe they were thinking of the version that uses Aptitude Kukris, Lightning Maces, and Roundabout Kick.

This seems to requires a liberal interpretation of Aptitude and two more feats, but would otherwise grant a nonzero chance of infinite damage if the probability of a critical hit is >50%. The good news is that Kaorti Resin is irrelevant.

[Heliomance]

I mean, that particular combo is pretty busted regardless of whether you can get sneak attack or not. Doesn’t it have a nontrivial chance of going actually infinite?

Not by itself, but it's the basis of a build that does, yes