Problem child

[Mooglir]

I just started a game and full disclosure im mostly a spike, but I do try my best to not always min/max and rp sometimes. I think strategically and enjoy helping my party; im usually a paladin but decided to play a barbarian this recent game I started. I'd like to hear thoughts if im more in the wrong or the other player. It may be that she seems to be a full RP and non strategic player and so its hard for me to comprehend her style. We started a module and we were getting our butts handed to us so we had to flee off the ship. Everyone else is fighting and running while this, lets call her Whoopideedo, is doing random stuff like mage handing as her main action to slap a monster in the face instead of disengage or hitting it.
I get the attention of a lot of monsters so everyone else can get off safely as I can take more hits than the squishies. The DM is doing his best to point her in the best direction without saying specifically gtfo the boat you dumby. He is using the guards to tell us to leave there are too many of them, im pretty sure he DM gifted a guard to kill a few monsters to help us because sometimes you just know? All the guards except one close to us had their butt dead in 1 turn but not this holy mother of everything. 8 turns later still alive taking names. We get to the boat around turn 7 and im yelling for everyone to get off while whoopideedo is making illusions that LOOK LIKE THE MONSTERS WE ARE FIGHTING, to try and SCARE them. I **** you not, Um hi MR. fire elemental would you like me to cast fireball at you because I think itll hurt you? Some things your charcters shouldn't and don't know, that's fine with me; however there are some things your character should know like fire elementals probably don't take fire damage.

When everyone but thicky thick head is off the boat I have had enough and ditch. I will try my best to help dumb people to the best of my ability, but there was no way we were winning this fight. Everyone is out of resources and 2-3 hp, 2 knocked out with 15 full hp monsters left? Its time to go!!! She stays on board as she's too scared and somehow thinks moving away from the raft we just got to towards the burning ship with monsters is better. She gets downed easily before her turn and here comes Hero DM. Our one guard that somehow has been living through 8 turns of attacks disregards his own safety to save this PC. he runs from 2 guys without disengaging to use his action to pick up the PC and throw her onto the boat to save her life. She takes 2 death hits but at least on the boat now. He takes 5 opportunity attacks to throw her before he dies. This frustrates the living hell out of me, Im now rooting for her dumbass to die instead of live because of what she is doing. This is all the first session and SHE IS NOT NEW TO DND. At least that's what the group says and what she herself says. Am I wrong for hating this person day one? am I wrong for wanting her to die from the most idiotic actions ever? If she wants to play a class that has no combat potential as my DM checked her abilities to help and she has nothing of real use. Am I Spiking too hard? The DM usually makes encounters for our WHOLE party. If this numnut is in it then we are going to have a rough road as itll be made for 5 pcs that SHOULD be capable instead of really the 4 of us.

Advice? maybe a story of your own? Our session was last night and I had to vent a little.

[bendking]

First off I'll say that if I were the DM, I'd just let her die. If a character is being stupid and making suicidal choices, it should get the brunt of the effect from those choices
Secondly - D&D is a team game with combat being one of the three main pillars in it. Being an RP purist can only get you so far. You need to carry your own weight.
Honestly, even from an RP perspective, any self-respecting adventurer's group would kick out a member that doesn't pull his weight.
I guess if I had to give any tips I would say, in order of preferability:
1. Talk it over with her.
2. Talk it over with your DM.
3. Don't try saving her character. Bring into RP the fact that she is a dead-weight.
4. If you really can't cope, just quit.

[Aprender]

Did you make a lizard folk barbarian? If you did, that player's character(s) will likely be most useful as provisions.

You aren't being a Spike to expect a player to contribute to one of the three main pillars of D&D. Were the player to walk up to a king and slap their face during a discussion, you'd be within your rights to be just as upset.

When a character does exceptionally stupid and suicidal things because "it's what my character would do", I feel comfortable letting them die because "it is what your character would do".

Yes, talk to DM and player, but don't feel bad if things go their natural course.

[LordEntrails]

... This frustrates the living hell out of me, Im now rooting for her dumbass to die instead of live because of what she is doing. This is all the first session and SHE IS NOT NEW TO DND. At least that's what the group says and what she herself says. Am I wrong for hating this person day one? am I wrong for wanting her to die from the most idiotic actions ever? If she wants to play a class that has no combat potential as my DM checked her abilities to help and she has nothing of real use. Am I Spiking too hard? The DM usually makes encounters for our WHOLE party. If this numnut is in it then we are going to have a rough road as itll be made for 5 pcs that SHOULD be capable instead of really the 4 of us.

Advice? maybe a story of your own? Our session was last night and I had to vent a little.

Yes this is your problem and not hers. You are letting something that is beyond your control upset/annoy/anger/frustrate you. Their is no point in allowing that to happen in a game, or in life. Being able to accept what is and not let it drive your emotional happiness is a pretty important life skill.

Sure, it can be frustrating or demoralizing, but learn to let it go. It's not your problem. If the character doesn't contribute, if they give your character no reason to help them, and if you (the player) have no desire to help the other player, then don't (behind expected civility). It's the players problem and the DM's, they are the only ones who should be concerned if the character lives or not.

Yea, sure the DM had to go out of the way to have an NPC rescue her. That's fine. Maybe it continues and then you have to decide if you are fine with that or not. If you maturely and nicely talk to the DM and players and you all can't work something out, then you have to decide whether you want to keep playing with the group or go start your own. *shrug* that's life.

[BloodOgre]

To some extent, I have to agree that in the real world, this is not your problem, and don't let it frustrate you. In the RP world, however, this character is putting your PC in danger as well as other PCs and NPCs and one NPC has already lost it's life saving her. So, it is your PC's problem. And yes,if a PC habitually unnecessarily puts a group of PCs at risk, those PCs will kick her out of the group. You could mention that to her.

As a DM, I may bail a PC out once if I can reasonably do it. But suicidal behavior leads to suicide by monster. You may want to suggest to the DM that the only way for that player to learn is to have the PC get killed. If the monsters kill your PCs often enough, you eventually learn that they are dangerous and that perhaps a more intelligent PC would be better suited for survival.

In a campaign I was in last year, one of the PCs died (the player played stupidly). The player's new PC was similar to the previous PC in that it was a Tiefling Warlock. We found it in another chamber chained to a wall. He kept spouting nonsense in Abyssal and insisted we recognize him as a demon. So we left him chained to the wall. One of the other players told him that basically, "hey, you need to give the party a reason to let you in the group. Creating a character is not an automatic entry into the game." PC #3 was much more amenable to the group and played with much more intelligence and consideration for fitting in with the party.

[Grimmnist]

I've played as a Whoopideedo before. About halfway through the first session I realized I'd made a huge mistake (the PC was just too much, trying to hand goblins flowers or give them hugs), fortunately the DM killed me and we never had to deal with that character again. Now, even though I knew I was being too much I couldn't stop doing dumb stuff halfway through the session. I come from an improv comedy background so once something is established in a scene it feels unnatural for me to remove it without a reason (even if it is objectively stupid).

There are two ways to deal with your problem, out of character or in character, never mix the two. Either you should, at the start of next session, bring up your concerns out of character, say how you like to play the game and try to find a middle ground. Or do it in character, Whoopideedos tend to be looking for a reaction with their bizarre behavior (this certainly applies to me), why not have your strong Barbarian literally pick them up, put them over a shoulder and walk them to "time out" when they are being too much. This does a great job of acknowledging their behavior and giving them a reason to stop. Obviously this won't work great in combat, but maybe you could do something like threatening time out once the encounter is done.

[zinycor]

A few things:
1- Don't let it anger you, this is a game after all. Take a breath and try to stay calm and explain the situation.
2- speak out of character with her and the GM. Again calmly.
3- NPC lives don't matter. Don't take their deaths to heart, or get upset over them. Those happen all the time and NPCs live as long as the GM wants them to.

[Evaar]

I get it. I'm in a game now with two brand new D&D players including a Paladin who's too timid to get into melee with anything and likes to spend her turn "readying" to do things (effectively skipping her turn) and a Rogue who keeps trying to "drop into stealth mode" in the middle of a well lit room while surrounded by observers.

Originally I was going nuts because I had made a Wizard who was primarily an enabler. I was setting the ball, but there was no one to spike it. I talked with the DM and swapped out that character, instead using the Celestial Generalist from LudicSavant's builds thread. So now when one of the two players just fails to contribute, my character can step up.

Basically, you have the option to get confrontational about it, or you can roll with it. Talk with the DM, agree that you're realistically a team of 4, and look to cover any essentials while she wastes turns. Maybe eventually she'll realize she's not actually contributing and decide she doesn't like that.

[KorvinStarmast]

3- NPC lives don't matter. Sometimes, they do. Depends on the adventure.

While your post was one I generally agree with, I do not care for that particular meme.

We've had a number of really intense sessions, RP and adventure, where our disagreement as a group regarding how to handle an NPC or an NPC's situation was the center point of tension.

Most recently, our group's martial characters got into an argument with some NPCs and it came to blows. My cleric tried to stop the fight, failed, and when the three NPC's were dropped to 0 HP my cleriec triggered "Perserve Lifve" (life cleric channel divinity). The DM, based on the damage done, ruled that two of the three weren't dead, but one had taken massive damage and was dead. No, I didn't have revivify prepared.

The rest of the party was taken somewhat aback by my actions, but as it worked out, our martials had been a bit too murderhobo and it all was a case of mistaken identity/a terrible mistake.

So we then had to RP a few of us finding the widow of the slain NPC and offereing a weregild since we acknowledged that it was really a terrible mistake.

The local authorities in that town, noting the very bloody handed manner of my allies, were probably in no position to arrest them/us. Our peace offering was accepted. (Heck, carrying all that gold might have been slowing us down).

The widow wasn't overjoyed, but during the RP our rogue did a couple of good things and I consumed a 50 gp ruby to create a continual flame tribute to their lost loved one. I put it on my mace, and set in on their hearth.

A continual flame can be covered or hidden but not smothered or quenched. My words to the widow were almost exactly this:

This I offer as a memorial of his love for you. It will burn eternally, but will do you no harm.
That went over real well with the DM. Didn't even roll. The widow accepted our apology, and the weregild, and we took our leave.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Well, I have a player in the group like this.

I set with him and told him.

"My friend, it is ok if you want to play some stupid, but there has to be a limit. When you cross this limit you hurt the other players, not character."

"Hurting the characters is ok, the moment it hurt a player you did wrong"


After that he told me that an aspect of my character was making him feel bad, so I told him "why didn't you tell me before? Next time tell me the moment something like this happens"

If it is in character only then:
Punch the balls.
Leave them to die.
Spit on them.
Yell at them.
If you are playing with PvP on then kill them.
Drag them to safety if you want.
(All in character, only do the last one to a player and only if he is in danger).

[zinycor]

Sometimes, they do. Depends on the adventure.

While your post was one I generally agree with, I do not care for that particular meme.

We've had a number of really intense sessions, RP and adventure, where our disagreement as a group regarding how to handle an NPC or an NPC's situation was the center point of tension.

Most recently, our group's martial characters got into an argument with some NPCs and it came to blows. My cleric tried to stop the fight, failed, and when the three NPC's were dropped to 0 HP my cleriec triggered "Perserve Lifve" (life cleric channel divinity). The DM, based on the damage done, ruled that two of the three weren't dead, but one had taken massive damage and was dead. No, I didn't have revivify prepared.

The rest of the party was taken somewhat aback by my actions, but as it worked out, our martials had been a bit too murderhobo and it all was a case of mistaken identity/a terrible mistake.

So we then had to RP a few of us finding the widow of the slain NPC and offereing a weregild since we acknowledged that it was really a terrible mistake.

The local authorities in that town, noting the very bloody handed manner of my allies, were probably in no position to arrest them/us. Our peace offering was accepted. (Heck, carrying all that gold might have been slowing us down).

The widow wasn't overjoyed, but during the RP our rogue did a couple of good things and I consumed a 50 gp ruby to create a continual flame tribute to their lost loved one. I put it on my mace, and set in on their hearth.
My words to the widow were almost exactly this:
That went over real well with the DM. Didn't even roll. The widow accepted our apology, and the weregild, and we took our leave.

And while I believe you had a great experience there, I do not care to advice people to care for NPC deaths, especially when it could turn into a conflict with someone at the table.

[KorvinStarmast]

And while I believe you had a great experience there, I do not care to advice people to care for NPC deaths, especially when it could turn into a conflict with someone at the table. The core reasons that I raised an objection to your little meme there is that
(1) it is a very short walk from "NPC lives don't matter" to "murderhobo R us" for far too many players.
(2) Caring about NPCs gets to the heart of this game: it is imbedded in accepting a great many quests and adventures. If you don't care whether or not NPCs die, then you don't go off into a dungeon or a dark and mysterious forest or an old mad wizard's tower to get to and solve/defeat the problem that is causing NPCs to get sick, die, kidnapped, whatever.

Narratively, NPC lives matter. It's baked into the game, into the genre, and into most of the published adventures to date for this edition.

[zinycor]

The core reasons that I raised an objection to your little meme there is that
(1) it is a very short walk from "NPC lives don't matter" to "murderhobo R us" for far too many players.
(2) Caring about NPCs gets to the heart of this game: it is imbedded in accepting a great many quests and adventures. If you don't care whether or not NPCs die, then you don't go off into a dungeon or a dark and mysterious forest or an old mad wizard's tower to get to and solve/defeat the problem that is causing NPCs to get sick, die, kidnapped, whatever.

Narratively, NPC lives matter. It's baked into the game, into the genre, and into most of the published adventures to date for this edition.

I guess we have different ideas for what "matter" means. What I mean by it is that NPCs deaths should not weight heavy in your heart or thoughts. NPCs are a part of the world the PCs explore, and may have any importance for the story or the world. BUT their lives don't matter for concerns over the enjoyment at the table, what your fellow players want to do or not.

The comment itself is related to the frustration expressed by the op, that a NPC died because a PC actions. Is my honest opinion, that the death of that NPC doesn't matter. What matters is that the attitude the girl playing aloof doesn't take into consideration the other players feelings.

[KorvinStarmast]

What matters is that the attitude the girl playing aloof doesn't take into consideration the other players feelings. ON this we agree. :smallsmile:

[Ravinsild]

it feels unnatural for me to remove it without a reason (even if it is objectively stupid).

Shouldn't the reason be that it is objectively stupid? lol It seems self explanatory idk.

[Grimmnist]

Shouldn't the reason be that it is objectively stupid? lol It seems self explanatory idk.

You clearly aren't a Bard main.

Honestly though, I would say it has to do with momentum, it's hard to stop doing stupid things once started.

[zinycor]

You clearly aren't a Bard main.

Honestly though, I would say it has to do with momentum, it's hard to stop doing stupid things once started.

Isn't a; "hey dude! Relax with the stupid!" Coming from another player enough to stop?

[Grimmnist]

Isn't a; "hey dude! Relax with the stupid!" Coming from another player enough to stop?

It should be, but communication is really difficult.

I'm not trying to defend the actions of the irritating player, but rather, as a player who has some similar tendencies, to explain the motivations and thought process (or lack there of) of the problematic behavior. The OP needs to somehow communicate with the problem player that they are being a problem, a difficult thing to do especially without offending, so more knowledge on how Whoopideedos think might be useful.

[Pex]

Drama Queens are right up there with The Jerk as the worst player type. The Jerk gets his fun at your expense. Drama Queen gets his fun at the campaign's expense. Rules are irrelevant. Plot is irrelevant. Competence is irrelevant. The Drama Queens wants to do whatever they like whenever they like to keep the focus of attention on them. However, they are completely dependent on the DM enabling them. If the DM is firm on the rules working as they are and not what the Drama Queen wants, if the DM is firm on focusing on the campaign plot and not indulge whatever fetish the Drama Queen is looking for, the Drama Queen will quit the campaign in a huff, sometimes even during the session. I call that a win.

[Hail Tempus]

I ran into a player like this back in the day. Her PC "wasn't into adventuring" and wanted to run a business or something back in town. The rest of us looked at each other, went on our adventure, and left her behind. She got to sit there for three hours while we played the game we had all shown up for.

There is, I think, an implicit agreement that players will play their character to the best of that character's abilities as part of a team. If someone isn't willing to do that, they need to find another hobby.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Drama Queens wants to do whatever they like whenever they like to keep the focus of attention on them. However, they are completely dependent on the DM enabling them. If the DM is firm on the rules working as they are and not what the Drama Queen wants, if the DM is firm on focusing on the campaign plot and not indulge whatever fetish the Drama Queen is looking for, the Drama Queen will quit the campaign in a huff, sometimes even during the session. I call that a win. Good for the table, though now and again that makes some "away from the table" relationships require mending.

I think the progression you describe is the way it is fated to go unless the DQ gets a clue and stops being so selfish.

[Teaguethebean]

I ran into a player like this back in the day. Her PC "wasn't into adventuring" and wanted to run a business or something back in town. The rest of us looked at each other, went on our adventure, and left her behind. She got to sit there for three hours while we played the game we had all shown up for.


This is excellent always treat them as if they aren't a PC and see if you would keep them in the team when they act the way they do. I personally don't give a PC any more sway in my party. If the village priest who is a competent cleric offers aid they are on the team but if a kid who has like a pet squirrel and isn't even good at avoiding danger starts following us into the dungeon we shoo them off regardless of if the Cleric or Child are Players or NPCs

[JakOfAllTirades]

My advice to the OP: give the "Whoopideedoo" player some time to figure out what she's doing wrong. The DM is obviously trying very hard to make this game fun for everyone by not killing her off. So you're off the hook and you don't have to worry about saving her when she does something dumb. As long as she doesn't get someone else killed, everything's okay. If/when that happens, you should definitely have a chat with her out of character.

And yes, I've got my own story about a player like that myself. My current group started gaming together a little over a year ago, and we have a "Whooideedoo" type player. At first she annoyed the crap outta me, and constantly did sub-optimal things in combat. I wasn't sure if she'd ever be a real fighter. Her antics out of combat were nonsensical too. However, she learned. And we started getting along better. She's an excellent roleplayer, and our characters became close. Fast forward a year... she still does some goofy **** once in while, but she knows how to carry her weight in combat. And out of combat, she includes me in her shenanigans. She's one of my favorite players of all time now.

Example:

Both our characters were going to the library to do some research, she says "I'll race you! First one there without being seen wins!" She's a rogue, I'm a warlock. No way I'm as fast or as stealthy as her. So I hexed her Dexterity and used Mask of Many Faces to disguise myself as the rogue so everyone would see "her" on the way to the library. At one point her mother saw me and mistakenly invited me to dinner. OOPS! The rogue's making stealth rolls and dex checks to cut through crowds in the market at disadvantage; I used dimension door. The final sprint to the library is a dead heat. She's using cunning action to dash an extra 30 feet every turn; I keep using relentless hex to teleport five feet in front of her. At the last moment she tripped me! Librarians are rushing out to see what's going on and we're both lying on the front steps of this huge library laughing our butts off. And the rest of the group is cracking up. She's like, "I won, I won." And I'm like, "Yeah, your mom's cooking dinner tonight, don't be late." The look on her face was priceless.

So yeah, give it time. It may take a while, so be patient. And try to have some fun.

[LordEntrails]

You know, these types of problems really are pretty easy to limit for a DM. Before you (a DM) starts a campaign, run a bunch of one-shots (or do an "open-table") for some time. You will then have a group of players you know, and you can then just invite the ones you want to your campaign, and avoid the ones that are a PITA or don't fit with your style or that of the other players.

[Ronnocius]

No, I think you are completely in the right to be frustrated with someone who seemingly doesn't bother to contribute anything to the game.

It was a bad DM decision to bail her out (considering she is not new to the game), it just rewards this behaviour.

[bobofwestgate]

A few things:
1- Don't let it anger you, this is a game after all. Take a breath and try to stay calm and explain the situation.
2- speak out of character with her and the GM. Again calmly.
3- NPC lives don't matter. Don't take their deaths to heart, or get upset over them. Those happen all the time and NPCs live as long as the GM wants them to.

That's not true. A good DM can bring a NPC to life and make you care about it almost as much as your PC

[zinycor]

That's not true. A good DM can bring a NPC to life and make you care about it almost as much as your PC

You might not agree, and that's ok.

[Sigreid]

You might be able to satisfy your need and whatever need she has by having your barbarian in character confront her with her actions and the realities of life and death situations. If she's that into RP, give her an RP reason to wise up.