Fixing Kensei

[TyGuy]

“Monks of the Way of Kensei train relentlessly with their weapons, to the point that the weapon becomes like an extension of the body. Founded on a mastery of sword fighting, the tradition has expanded to include many different weapons.
A kensei sees a weapon much in the same way a calligrapher or a painter regards a pen or brush. Whatever the weapon, the kensei views it as a tool used to express the beauty and precision of the martial arts. That such mastery makes a kensei a peerless warrior is but a side effect of intense devotion, practice, and study.”
Ok, Kensei is the weapon master monk style. Cool concept, cool flavor, poor execution. It’s riddled with issues like things that don’t scale, something that incentivizes NOT using your weapon to attack (fewer weapon attacks for the weapon master… what?) and an important feature that becomes completely useless if you want to use a +1 or greater weapon. Eesh.

Let’s fix this mess with some changes to existing features and the addition of one. The addition could be dropped but I feel like it’s a way to drive the design goal home.

Going in order we first come across Agile Parry. The weapon master using the weapon defensively is COOL. What’s not cool, is having to use an unarmed strike to activate it. What, you can’t parry with a sword unless you kick first? Right… If we peek over the fence at the Drunken Master we see a nice little thing they get called Drunken Technique that folds one feature into Flurry of Blows. Let’s steal that idea and mesh it with Agile Parry to get.


Agile Parry. Whenever you use Patient Defense and are holding a kensei weapon, you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee weapon. You gain a +2 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn, while the weapon is in your hand and you aren’t incapacitated.

There you go. When you want to be defensive you can use your Patient Defense and become extra defensive integrating your melee kensei weapon into your technique. And you don’t have to sacrifice those precious weapon attacks to do so.

You don’t have to go far to notice another issue, down the line we have Kensei Shot. A neat little feature that adds some oomph to the Kensei’s ranged attacks. Too bad it doesn’t scale!! What the heck? Seems like an oversight really since it starts out at the exact same dice as the martial arts dice… hmmm. Let’s just make the bonus damage based on martial arts die.
Now, before you bring it up, I understand that WoC probably kept this feature tame because a dip in fighter for Archery fighting style combined with sharpshooter and crossbow master with hunter’s mark WOULD BE OP!!! 1) multiclassing and feats are variant options 2) this is kensei we’re fixing 3) those combos are OP before Kensei Shot 4) this is houserule fixing, houserule/ask to not do those combos or tone them down if you must. In a vacuum this innocent ability is not too strong for someone who just wants to single class kensei without aspirations of breaking encounters.


Kensei's Shot. You can use a bonus action on your turn to make your ranged attacks with a kensei weapon more deadly. When you do so, any target you hit with a ranged attack using a kensei weapon takes an extra 1d4 damage of the weapon’s type. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table. You retain this benefit until the end of the current turn.

Moving on we get to Sharpen the Blade. Ok, it’s cool if you’re in a low magic campaign. But if you’re not, a +X weapon isn’t terribly difficult to come by. Is it really an interesting decision to make between a +1 or +2 weapon and the ability to go higher with this feature? I don’t think so. And so let’s simply drop the restriction and keep the rest the same, including the cap at 3.


Sharpen the Blade. At 11th level, you gain the ability to augment your weapons further with your ki. As a bonus action, you can expend up to 3 ki points to grant one kensei weapon you touch a bonus to attack and damage rolls when you attack with it. The bonus equals the number of ki points you spent. This bonus lasts for 1 minute or until you use this feature again. If this feature is used on a magic weapon that already has a bonus to attack and damage rolls, the combined bonus maximum is 3.

Alright, that fixes the most glaring issues. Save two minor bumps. One, Sharpen the blade still does nothing on a +3 weapon. Two, you’re still only making two weapon attacks as the weapon master. Come on! Give us those dang weapon attacks! Here’s the optional feature to address both. In addition to Sharpen the Blade at level 11 you receive:


Flurry of Blades. Whenever you use Flurry of Blows and are holding a melee kensei weapon, any number of your two additional attacks may be made with your kensei weapon instead of an unarmed strike.

[Millstone85]

There you go. When you want to be defensive you can use your Patient Defense and become extra defensive integrating your melee kensei weapon into your technique. And you don’t have to sacrifice those precious weapon attacks to do so.But it instead costs you ki and your bonus action. I am not sure I like this tradeoff.

[bendking]

Here's a wild idea, how about just get +2 AC every time you use Ki?
Honestly, what would this break? It's not like Monk has a crazy AC or anything (Heavy Armor & Shield already beats him in most levels), and this would facilitate this sub-class being somewhat of a departure from the usual hit-and-run style of Monk, and a good sub-class should make you play differently if you ask me.

This would make the Kensei a bit more of a frontliner/tank/damage dealer, which would be a cool role to see the Monk in.
I honestly don't think this feat is any better than the Way of the Open Hand 3rd level feat, which emphasizes the hit-and-run playstyle and complements it really well.
This would simply complement a different playstyle.

[TyGuy]

But it instead costs you ki and your bonus action. I am not sure I like this tradeoff.
Does it need to be borderline always-on? If so, then it may as well just be, use your weapon as a shield, add +2 AC when wielding a kensei weapon. If not, then it's theme appropriate to use the weapon defensively when being defensive. I considered making the AC bonus proficiency or Wis mod so it scales, but it's still good as a static boost to an already useful feature.

[PeteNutButter]

Does it need to be borderline always-on? If so, then it may as well just be, use your weapon as a shield, add +2 AC when wielding a kensei weapon. If not, then it's theme appropriate to use the weapon defensively when being defensive. I considered making the AC bonus proficiency or Wis mod so it scales, but it's still good as a static boost to an already useful feature.

It's built into the subclass to be basically always on. It's the biggest feature the class gets. Just make it +2 AC whenever wielding only your kensei weapon.

[bendking]

It's built into the subclass to be basically always on. It's the biggest feature the class gets. Just make it +2 AC whenever wielding only your kensei weapon.

I don't like this as much because then it just feels like a passive. Sure, it's effective, but fluff-wise you don't feel like your monk is doing anything special to gain this bonus.
I do feel like it needs to be attached to player choice somehow.

[Millstone85]

Here is how I would buff Agile Parry:
Agile Parry. The first time you make an unarmed strike as part of the Attack action on your turn and are holding a kensei weapon, you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee weapon. You gain a +2 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn, while the weapon is in your hand and you aren't incapacitated.
Now it can be used either with the Attack action, with your standard monk BA unarmed strike, or with Flurry of Blows.

[Nidgit]

My real issue with the Kensei Monk is that it feels bland and flavorless. Every other Monk subclass offers flavorful abilities that shape the subclass's approach and fighting style. Kensei is all about using weapons, which has some potential. But the abilities are all incremental gains rather than giving you cool stuff to do with your weapons.

I'd love to see the Kensei Monk instead have built-in options for specific weapon arts, similar to the idea of the Weapon Master Fighter or the UA weapon mastery feats. Maybe your Kensei weapon gets an additional 20 ft of Thrown range. Maybe you get Tripping Attack and Riposte from Battle Master. Without additional cool things to do, the Kensei just feels like the Champion of Monks.

[Misterwhisper]

3 steps to fixing Kensei:

1. You get unarmed and one other melee weapon as a choice of your Kensei weapon. No archery, just make the zen archer subclass it’s own subclass. This way you can give them better abilities without wasting subclass space on extra useless choices.

2. Agile defense should not have to activate from an unarmed attack on a subclass that specializes in weapons. Just have it activate any time you use flurry of blows. Open hand and drunken master already get something nice like that, why punish the Kensei.

3. Move the level 17 ability to level 11, replace level 17 with an ability that lets you use your Kensei weapon as in place of unarmed strikes as part of flurry. Want to make sharpen the blade more balanced, just get rid of it.

[GlenSmash!]

I may be in the minority here,

but I pretty much wanted Kensei to be a Fighter with Unarmored Defense.

[Misterwhisper]

I may be in the minority here,

but I pretty much wanted Kensei to be a Fighter with Unarmored Defense.

I am still waiting for my duelist subclass...

[stoutstien]

Kensei are the champion fighters of the monk world. Great switch hitters with no investment.
20 AC without any outside support at lv 4 and a 22 cap before any magic spells or items puts you up with the top of the chart. Combined with ba dodge you can survive as long in a brawl as a barbarian.

Kensei shot is weak but allows the times you are hanging back and using a ranged weapon to get a little boost. Monk suffers from every action costing ki so I'll take it.

Deft strike is like a mini smite. Save it for crits.

Sharpen the blade means you get the biggest boon from non static plus magic weapons and you make the best of simple weapon that are magical.

Sure it seems like a simple subclass but the crunch is there.

[Lunali]

I think if I were to try to 'fix' kensei, I would instead have unarmed strikes (probably only any strikes that are part of the attack action) take on attributes of the weapon. Their unarmed strikes would keep their normal damage, but would get the damage type, attack bonus, and possibly additional riders of their wielded melee kensei weapon. This keeps it distinct from a fighter, but also implies a very different fighting style than other monks.

[TyGuy]

It's built into the subclass to be basically always on. It's the biggest feature the class gets. Just make it +2 AC whenever wielding only your kensei weapon.


I don't like this as much because then it just feels like a passive. Sure, it's effective, but fluff-wise you don't feel like your monk is doing anything special to gain this bonus.
I do feel like it needs to be attached to player choice somehow.
I find myself agreeing with Bendking. I'd rather have the bonus scale and be a bigger boon that the player has to choose to activate than a passive for a subclass that already doesn't have very flashy features to play with.

[Spiritchaser]

A sharpened flame tongue longsword in the hands of a Kensai using flurry of blades would do damage comparable with a sorcadin shadow blade build... with all the monk toys...

Meh... special item needed, that might still be ok.

[Skylivedk]

A sharpened flame tongue longsword in the hands of a Kensai using flurry of blades would do damage comparable with a sorcadin shadow blade build... with all the monk toys...

Meh... special item needed, that might still be ok.

The Sorcadin also has a pretty big toy box besides damage. Either Wish or Aura with level 9 slots or Aura+ with level 8 slots. Option B could be an AoA strong enough to pretty much kill a Kensei flurrying said Sorcadin...

[GlenSmash!]

I am still waiting for my duelist subclass...

Somewhat Ironically Barbarian is my go to for a wandering unarmored warrior dedicated to use of a single Longsword.

[CorporateSlave]

Great switch hitters with no investment.


I agree 100%, but this will always be a hard sell to the optimization crowd.

[stoutstien]

Also kensei are the most independent from ki which means you can focus your ki on more of the base monk features without spreading yourself thin which is a common concerned at lower lvs for monks. Unless I'm mistaken it's the only subclass with ki free features at lv three other than long death. I want to really see which of the the two are the more tanky. At face value long death seems like a clear winner but +2 AC and being able to function at range is hard to value from group to group.

[suplee215]

I feel like a lot of monk subclasses get labeled as under power and "need fixing" when at the end of the day it doesn't. The monk chasis is extremely powerful already.

[Misterwhisper]

I agree 100%, but this will always be a hard sell to the optimization crowd.

Anyone who is dexterity beaded is a switch hitter.

Kensei don’t have to invest because they can’t, no feats they can take without it taking a severe nerf compared to other classes, they don’t get a fighting style, or any of that.

As good as it is, you still have to be in melee to use stunning strike, and you don’t get to ignore disadvantage from melee range on ranged attacks, because with point buy you will almost always need the stats, if you went variant human for an archery feat now you had to invest highly.

Archery, in the way they implemented it, is only there as an oh crap backup option that is only slightly better than any other monk.

They should have just put out a zen archer, it has been around about 20 years maybe more, and would be easy to make.

[TyGuy]

All this talk about archery and zen archers. Am I the only one who thinks beefed up shuriken damage is cool?

[Vogie]

I feel like a lot of monk subclasses get labeled as under power and "need fixing" when at the end of the day it doesn't. The monk chasis is extremely powerful already.

Yeah, I'm in this boat too.

I'm okay with some of these -

Being able to augment magic weapons with sharpen the blade makes sense, as well as the cap at +3.
The Kensei's Shot Scaling with unarmed die makes sense... but ONLY if you get the bonus once a turn. It's basically replacing the bonus action attack. They shouldn't get "flurry of arrows" for free each turn. As written, it's just 1d4 at level 3, sure, but it is also 2d4 at level 5 (provided both shots hit). That's better average damage then a single 1d8 damage boost.

But I completely disagree with having an always-on Agile Parry - That gives you a meaningful choice on what you want out of the fight. Kensei Monks have the ability to choose an awesome weapon that increases their damage die early - as though they were a monk of 11+ level, but at 3. Being able to decrease damage to increase survivability WITHOUT spending Ki is unique to the subclass. Any monk can spend ki for patient defense, or pick up defensive dualist to turn their daggers/shortswords into AC boosts... but the Kensei doesn't have to.

Lastly, Flurry of Blades makes no sense, balance-wise. 4 Attacks with a martial weapon in a single turn is the 20th-level fighter ability, or level 5+ Fighter by spending their limited Action Surge, and you want to give it to a monk archetype... at level 3. Sure, you limit it to "melee only" and require the spending of a single ki point... but it's still WAY overpowered.

[Misterwhisper]

All this talk about archery and zen archers. Am I the only one who thinks beefed up shuriken damage is cool?

Yeah but another issue with 5e is completely lack of support for throwing weapon builds.

A rogue could do it but only because they only get one attack anyway.

[darknite]

So many XGtE subclasses look awesome and so few truly are.:frown:

[TyGuy]

Yeah but another issue with 5e is completely lack of support for throwing weapon builds.

I don't think of Kensei's Shot as a feature for a ranged monk build. I see it as a less-suck option when the monk can't engage in melee.

[Haydensan]

Lastly, Flurry of Blades makes no sense, balance-wise. 4 Attacks with a martial weapon in a single turn is the 20th-level fighter ability, or level 5+ Fighter by spending their limited Action Surge, and you want to give it to a monk archetype... at level 3. Sure, you limit it to "melee only" and require the spending of a single ki point... but it's still WAY overpowered.


The OP stated that "Flurry of Blades" would be something they get at level 11. This is a lot easier to stomach but still a bit too strong I feel.

I think they should get something like this though I'm not sure how to implement it.

Maybe change Flurry of Blows to give the option for one Kensei weapon attack AND one unarmed attack at a certain level?

[Misterwhisper]

I don't think of Kensei's Shot as a feature for a ranged monk build. I see it as a less-suck option when the monk can't engage in melee.

One issue is that throwing weapons are not considered ranged weapons, And they can’t be drawn for free.

[TyGuy]

One issue is that throwing weapons are not considered ranged weapons, And they can’t be drawn for free.
Darts are ranged weapons. While you're correct that they don't have the free-draw ammunition aspect RAW, I think it's a fair ruling to give it to them if drawing and knocking bolts and arrows get a free pass.

[Trickery]

If you want to make Kensei more of a damage-oriented Monk, then having it spend its bonus action for things other than flurry of blows is counter productive. At the same time, we need to ensure that monks aren't blowing rogues and fighters out of the water for damage at low levels.

Here's what I would do:

Level 3

Kensei weapons
Move Deft Strike here, allow it to be used more than once per turn.
When you are hit with an attack and are holding a Kensei weapon, you can spend one ki to defend yourself with your weapon and add your proficiency bonus to your AC, potentially negating the attack. Bonus AC lasts until the start of your next turn.

Level 6

Magic Kensei Weapons
Kensei Strike: When you hit a stunned target with a Kensei weapon, you can add the weapon's damage die to the damage roll a second time.

Level 11

Kensei flurry: your flurry of blows attacks may now use your Kensei weapons instead of your fists.

Level 17

Unerring Accuracy: your attack rolls cannot have disadvantage.

Deft strike is only usable with Kensei weapons anyway, so you aren't getting more than 2MA extra damage per turn out of it until level 11, and it's only usable once per turn prior to level 5.

Kensei strike would allow a level 6 Kensei with a longsword to drop a bunch of ki and stunning fist the target (1d6+Dex), then deal 2d10+1d6+dex (Deft Strike + Kensei Strike + normal longsword in two hands), then flurry and deal 2d6+2dex. That's about 41 damage. Action surge from a CBE SS Fighter at the same level might deal 87.5 damage (5*(1d6+4+10)). The Kensei is still behind the fighter in damage, particularly when the fighter wants to burst, but is doing competitive damage nonetheless.

It also gives Kensei a built-in defensive duelist, but one that works more like Shield. Kensei flurry comes online at a level when MA dice is pretty strong anyway and allows some interesting interaction with their stunning strike + Kensei Strike combo, allowing them to use deft strike more than once per round without needing another stunner in the party.

And the level 17 feature is just fun - no rerolling required and allows the Kensei to attack from prone and things like that without penalty.

[Vogie]

The OP stated that "Flurry of Blades" would be something they get at level 11. This is a lot easier to stomach but still a bit too strong I feel.

I think they should get something like this though I'm not sure how to implement it.

Maybe change Flurry of Blows to give the option for one Kensei weapon attack AND one unarmed attack at a certain level?

Even at level 11, it's still crazy-powerful... they can only perform it a mere 11 times a short rest, which is effectively all the time.

I mean, you could add a single kensei weapon attack as a bonus action, but that's basically "Deft Strike 2: Strike Harder", and wouldn't stack with the OP's updated Kensei's Shot.

What I'd like to see is some sort of weapon-themed bonus that is more on brand, such as the ability to make ranged opportunity attacks, throw in some unique weapon options like kunai rope darts, kusari-gama, hook swords, and weighted (spiked?) chains. Alternatively, grab one of the neat effects from the UA feats, such as Flail mastery's:

+2 bonus to targets holding shields, and
knockdown potential on opportunity attacks

[Trickery]

Even at level 11, it's still crazy-powerful... they can only perform it a mere 11 times a short rest, which is effectively all the time.

I mean, you could add a single kensei weapon attack as a bonus action, but that's basically "Deft Strike 2: Strike Harder", and wouldn't stack with the OP's updated Kensei's Shot.

What I'd like to see is some sort of weapon-themed bonus that is more on brand, such as the ability to make ranged opportunity attacks, throw in some unique weapon options like kunai rope darts, kusari-gama, hook swords, and weighted (spiked?) chains. Alternatively, grab one of the neat effects from the UA feats, such as Flail mastery's:

+2 bonus to targets holding shields, and
knockdown potential on opportunity attacks


What's important isn't how much damage the Kensei does, but how much damage it does relative to other martials. The balance point for monks seems to be them doing less damage than the other martial classes past about level 6, and about equal damage prior to then. Compare what you expect a Kensei's damage to be with the changes to what you'd expect a PAM GWM fighter to do and what you'd expect a CBE rogue to do (counting advantage from hiding).

For example, my version of the Kensei at level 11 can spend a full 5 ki points (stun+flurry+three deft strikes) to deal 1d8+Dex (stunning strike) plus 3*(2d10+1d8+Dex). That sounds like a lot, but it's actually 71 expected damage and will only happen if the Kensei lands all of those attacks and gets the stun on the first hit. A CBE SS fighter on an action surge at that round expects to deal 7*(1d6+5+10)=129.5 damage assuming all attacks hit, and those attacks are made at range and only -3 to hit (due to archery) compared to the Monk's attacks. Even considering miss chance, the Monk is still doing a lot less damage and, again, had to spend 5 Ki to do it - meaning he can only do that twice per short rest.

So you have to keep things in perspective. Match the damage up against what you expect other martials to do at the same level. And I mean what you expect actual players to do, not what a worst-case suboptimal whip fighter with defensive duelist would do.

[TyGuy]

A level 11 two weapon fighting style fighter can deal 3 attacks as an action and a 4th as a bonus action.
A level 11 kensei with the proposed flurry of blades can make 2 attacks as an action and 2 more as a bonus action by consuming its limited resource.
So by spending ki it can reach the free attack economy of a fighter.
That’s not OP in my opinion.

[Vogie]

What's important isn't how much damage the Kensei does, but how much damage it does relative to other martials. The balance point for monks seems to be them doing less damage than the other martial classes past about level 6, and about equal damage prior to then. Compare what you expect a Kensei's damage to be with the changes to what you'd expect a PAM GWM fighter to do and what you'd expect a CBE rogue to do (counting advantage from hiding).

For example, my version of the Kensei at level 11 can spend a full 5 ki points (stun+flurry+three deft strikes) to deal 1d8+Dex (stunning strike) plus 3*(2d10+1d8+Dex). That sounds like a lot, but it's actually 71 expected damage and will only happen if the Kensei lands all of those attacks and gets the stun on the first hit. A CBE SS fighter on an action surge at that round expects to deal 7*(1d6+5+10)=129.5 damage assuming all attacks hit, and those attacks are made at range and only -3 to hit (due to archery) compared to the Monk's attacks. Even considering miss chance, the Monk is still doing a lot less damage and, again, had to spend 5 Ki to do it - meaning he can only do that twice per short rest.

So you have to keep things in perspective. Match the damage up against what you expect other martials to do at the same level. And I mean what you expect actual players to do, not what a worst-case suboptimal whip fighter with defensive duelist would do.

Sure... if you're using 5e to play Street Fighter XIV, with all classes going one-on-one. If you're trying to do PAM GWM fighter Damage with a monk archetype, it's GOING to be broken. Same with a CrossbowExpert Rogue. A regular rogue+archetype, maybe, but expecting a SUBCLASS to act similarly to other characters with both Subclasses and Feats... that's just an absurd starting assumption, but explains why your numbers are so borked.

A Kensei Monk Archetype:

Can't use heavy weapons other than longbows (no d12 or 2d6 melee weapons, and no ranged weapons beyond d8... until 17, of course)
is more than likely going to use their ASIs rather than feats due to unarmored defense, damage based on Dexterity and DCs based on Wisdom.
If in melee, can (and probably will) be more focused on using Stunning Strike because they're in a party who benefits from advantage
Can nearly always have a +1, +2, or +3 weapon at hand from level 11 onwards, regardless of DM, campaign and loot.

Compare to any fighter archetype which will:

Wear Armor
Use all of the weapons
Have an extra feat/ASI at level 6
Ignore spending ASIs on Wisdom altogether
Have more, stronger attacks per round without resources spent

If you want to compare damage, it should be with the equivalent of a strong rogue archetype, with no feats - another D8 hit die class that is lightly armored, slippery and can hit really hard in the right conditions.

[Trickery]

Sure... if you're using 5e to play Street Fighter XIV, with all classes going one-on-one. If you're trying to do PAM GWM fighter Damage with a monk archetype, it's GOING to be broken. Same with a CrossbowExpert Rogue. A regular rogue+archetype, maybe, but expecting a SUBCLASS to act similarly to other characters with both Subclasses and Feats... that's just an absurd starting assumption, but explains why your numbers are so borked.

A Kensei Monk Archetype:

Can't use heavy weapons other than longbows (no d12 or 2d6 melee weapons, and no ranged weapons beyond d8... until 17, of course)
is more than likely going to use their ASIs rather than feats due to unarmored defense, damage based on Dexterity and DCs based on Wisdom.
If in melee, can (and probably will) be more focused on using Stunning Strike because they're in a party who benefits from advantage
Can nearly always have a +1, +2, or +3 weapon at hand from level 11 onwards, regardless of DM, campaign and loot.

Compare to any fighter archetype which will:

Wear Armor
Use all of the weapons
Have an extra feat/ASI at level 6
Ignore spending ASIs on Wisdom altogether
Have more, stronger attacks per round without resources spent

If you want to compare damage, it should be with the equivalent of a strong rogue archetype, with no feats - another D8 hit die class that is lightly armored, slippery and can hit really hard in the right conditions.

I read your post twice and was unable to figure out what you were saying. Let me reiterate, briefly this time:

The monk, even with a subclass, should not beat or meet a fighter's damage by level 7 and beyond.
The Kensei is a damage-focused archetype. It should have better damage than a typical Monk because that's the entire point of the archetype.


With those two considerations in mind, I came up with a set of features that allowed the Kensei's damage to grow organically and utilize its existing features intelligently, but without beating the damage we'd expect from a Fighter.

I considered what a Kensei with my features would deal with a Longsword under ideal circumstances and compared that to a CBE SS fighter. Note that CBE + SS is on the low end of optimized fighter damage, with GWM, GWM+PAM, and GWM+PAM+Sentinel all doing better. And all of this is before we consider any bonus from Fighter archetype.

Meanwhile, one attack from a crossbow fired by an 11th level Rogue will output about 30 damage. That's before we consider any archetypes, bonus actions, reactions (which are quite strong on a rogue), or consider that the Rogue's attack is more likely to hit since the Rogue will probably be hiding or have some other source of advantage. Note that the Rogue has not expended any resources to do this. My Kensei was able to output quite a bit more damage by expending a number of resources that it could only do twice per short rest - similar to an Eldritch Smite from a Hexblade around the same level.

My numbers aren't borked.

[Amechra]

Meanwhile, one attack from a crossbow fired by an 11th level Rogue will output about 30 damage.

Let's see... the Rogue (assuming a light crossbow) deals 30.5 damage on a single attack on average. Again, that's a single attack, probably made at advantage or through an ally setting them up by being in melee combat. Fair enough. If they try to attack a creature with cover, their damage drops to 9.5 average.

An 11th level Kensei using a longbow and Kensei's Shot (which they have no reason not to), at the same level, will deal 12 damage per attack on average, for 24 damage if both of their attacks hit. If they choose to use Deft Strike on one of their hits, they can spend 1 ki point to up that to 28.5 damage. Unlike the Rogue, they require no set-up to do so, and 1 ki is insanely cheap at 11th level. 2 fewer points of damage on average isn't too bad, really, especially since the Kensei has the potential for partial damage (if the Rogue misses on one attack, all of their damage is gone. If the Kensei misses an attack, they have a chance to deal the "other" half of their damage).

If we assume that the Kensei buffs their weapon by +1 with Sharpen the Edge¹, their damage matches the Rogue's assuming they use Deft Strike once per round. Assuming a 3-4 round combat, the Kensei has burnt 4-5 ki to do so... which matches what they can afford to burn in a fight (especially since they won't be using any of their normal ki sinks like Stunning Strike). Pointing out that the Rogue didn't burn anything is irrelevant, since Rogues have no resource they can burn to boost their damage.

If feats are allowed...

• Sharpshooter is a little better for the Rogue, because it opens up more chances to Sneak Attack (which might be irrelevant, depending on subclass). Sharpen the Edge means that the Kensei is probably in a better place to use the -5/+10 part of the feat.
• Crossbow Expert is actually better for the Monk - picking up hand crossbows essentially lets them replace Kensei's Shot with an actual bonus action attack, bringing their damage up (assuming Deft Strike) to flurry - x1 Dex.

I haven't done any noodling vis-a-vis your changes, but a quick bit of napkin math shows that flurrying with a longbow would bring them up to 38 damage base, with the potential for a 56 damage nova.

¹ Might cost more if the Rogue has a magic crossbow, but we'll leave that aside for now.

---

I would like everyone to note as part of this discussion that Rogues don't generally get features that boost their damage as part of their subclasses, at least not until the capstone:

• Arcane Trickster: Depends on what spells you pick up, but generally no.
• Assassin: Assassinate requires quite a bit of set-up, and you get to use it maybe once per combat.
• Inquisitive: Insightful Fighting helps you get sneak attack off, but since we're already assuming that you can sneak attack...
• Mastermind: Redirection is a damage boosting feature if you squint really hard.
• Scout: Ambush Master helps set up sneak attacks, but it also helps your Kensei buddy make more swings.
• Swashbuckler: Nope, just another sneak attack set-up feature.
• Thief: Other than Flask of Oil/Alchemist's Fire cheese, nope.

So Monk+Kensei is a viable comparison with a Rogue+Anything when we're talking ranged weapons.

[Misterwhisper]

If you want to make Kensei more of a damage-oriented Monk, then having it spend its bonus action for things other than flurry of blows is counter productive. At the same time, we need to ensure that monks aren't blowing rogues and fighters out of the water for damage at low levels.

Here's what I would do:

Level 3

Kensei weapons
Move Deft Strike here, allow it to be used more than once per turn.
When you are hit with an attack and are holding a Kensei weapon, you can spend one ki to defend yourself with your weapon and add your proficiency bonus to your AC, potentially negating the attack. Bonus AC lasts until the start of your next turn.

Level 6

Magic Kensei Weapons
Kensei Strike: When you hit a stunned target with a Kensei weapon, you can add the weapon's damage die to the damage roll a second time.

Level 11

Kensei flurry: your flurry of blows attacks may now use your Kensei weapons instead of your fists.

Level 17

Unerring Accuracy: your attack rolls cannot have disadvantage.

Deft strike is only usable with Kensei weapons anyway, so you aren't getting more than 2MA extra damage per turn out of it until level 11, and it's only usable once per turn prior to level 5.

Kensei strike would allow a level 6 Kensei with a longsword to drop a bunch of ki and stunning fist the target (1d6+Dex), then deal 2d10+1d6+dex (Deft Strike + Kensei Strike + normal longsword in two hands), then flurry and deal 2d6+2dex. That's about 41 damage. Action surge from a CBE SS Fighter at the same level might deal 87.5 damage (5*(1d6+4+10)). The Kensei is still behind the fighter in damage, particularly when the fighter wants to burst, but is doing competitive damage nonetheless.

It also gives Kensei a built-in defensive duelist, but one that works more like Shield. Kensei flurry comes online at a level when MA dice is pretty strong anyway and allows some interesting interaction with their stunning strike + Kensei Strike combo, allowing them to use deft strike more than once per round without needing another stunner in the party.

And the level 17 feature is just fun - no rerolling required and allows the Kensei to attack from prone and things like that without penalty.

This is horribly designed based on bad assumptions.

1. Deft strike mini crit at level 3 for a ki more than once a round is WAY too good for a class that at base has a built in bonus action attacks.

2. One ki to add your prof to ac for a round like mini shield is also far too good.

3. Essentially auto crit with possible even bigger crit against stunned people thanks to deft strike. 4d6 + dex PER normal attack and 2d6 + dex on unarmed on a class that can attack 4 times a turn and you think this is cool at level 6? This is ridiculously op.

4. Kensei weapon for flurry is fine, but not at 11, unless you cap it at unarmed damage.

5. Capstone is debatable, with the rest it is op, but could be fixed if the rest is fixed.

You try to justify this subclass with no fear or feats by saying it is less than the fighter with 2 of the best combat feats in the game, hitting on each attack with a -5 hit and using action surge.

In a normal round a fighter at level 6 will be doing 25 is damage depending on the weapon and fighting style.

The monk could also take sharp shooter and be doing at level 12:
1d8 + 15 four times with a longbow for 1 ki
+ 1d8 each of stunned
+ 1d8 each of using deft strike for 4ki but not worth it really

That is 78 damage for 1 ki
96 if stunned
114 if deft striking too

And can just spend a ki for + 4 ac for a round.

That is broken as hell.

[Max_Killjoy]

As a few others have noted... I'd start with immediately ditching the idea that the weapon-master has to attack bare-handed to get one of the basic special benefits of her weapon.

[Witty Username]

Agile Parry. Whenever you use Patient Defense and are holding a kensei weapon, you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee weapon. You gain a +2 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn, while the weapon is in your hand and you aren’t incapacitated.

Bias warning: I do not like patient defense much, I prefer using my ki on stunning strikes and flurry of blows, and if I need to be defensive I prefer disengaging most of the time.

I think this makes the kensei weaker, sure you don't down grade your weapon attack to an unarmed strike, (at 3rd a 1d10(two handing a longsword) to 1d4), but now to get the same effect you need to use a bonus action that you could use to disengage or make an unarmed strike 1d4+dex to zero, not to mention this runs into the scaling problem that you dislike with the subclass already, as the monk gains levels this gets less impactful as their martial arts dice catch up with their kensei weapon, where this ability has negative scaling with flurry of blows as the monk gains levels.
If I were to change this with the goal you have in mind I would allow unarmed attacks from bonus actions or flurry of blows apply since they are going to be unarmed attacks anyway. this would encourage a kensei to act aggressively, using their bonus action for attacks instead of movement, but it would also make this ability have virtually no down side unless you needed to use patient defense as well.


Kensei's Shot. You can use a bonus action on your turn to make your ranged attacks with a kensei weapon more deadly. When you do so, any target you hit with a ranged attack using a kensei weapon takes an extra 1d4 damage of the weapon’s type. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table. You retain this benefit until the end of the current turn.

do note that this ability does not require ki to use, so a ranged kensai at 11th level, will be doing 2d8+5 as an attack twice from range with no resource investment, combined with unarmored movement, sharpen the blade, and sharpshooter this can easily get out of hand with just the straight monk.


Sharpen the Blade. At 11th level, you gain the ability to augment your weapons further with your ki. As a bonus action, you can expend up to 3 ki points to grant one kensei weapon you touch a bonus to attack and damage rolls when you attack with it. The bonus equals the number of ki points you spent. This bonus lasts for 1 minute or until you use this feature again. If this feature is used on a magic weapon that already has a bonus to attack and damage rolls, the combined bonus maximum is 3.

more quality of life then anything else, I like it.


In addition to Sharpen the Blade at level 11 you receive:
Flurry of Blades. Whenever you use Flurry of Blows and are holding a melee kensei weapon, any number of your two additional attacks may be made with your kensei weapon instead of an unarmed strike.

I was going to go all hulk on this two abilities at 11th level instead of one heresy, but this would be a 1d8 + 1d8 to 1d10 to 1d10 (about 2 points a round on average)by this point. So This seems more of a flavor thing at this point, seems fine. My only concern is that sharpen the blade could get out of hand with its pluses applying to the flurry attacks as well.

Overall this seems fine, I think Kensei's shot may need to cost 1 ki in this version so it conforms more to flurry of blows instead of the martial arts attack. And I think that this would outperform the other sub classes of monk by a lot, drunken master, sun soul, way of four elements, way of the open hand and way of shadow all seem weak compared to this.

Oh, one more thing.

A level 11 two weapon fighting style fighter can deal 3 attacks as an action and a 4th as a bonus action.
A level 11 kensei with the proposed flurry of blades can make 2 attacks as an action and 2 more as a bonus action by consuming its limited resource.
So by spending ki it can reach the free attack economy of a fighter.
That’s not OP in my opinion.

now I know you are going to take dual wielder, at some point but I will address both with and without.
w/ out 4 attacks with light weapons 1d6 +dex each
w/ fighter 4 attacks 1d8 +dex
monk two-handing 4 attacks 1d10 +dex for 1 ki
monk is still going to be best in terms of damage output, despite the fighter getting the same number of attacks. Sure not OP, two-weapons is known to be a lackluster, but not necessarily a fair comparison.

[Trickery]

Think I now understand why game designers usually work in small teams. It's impossible to get anything done with too many voices pitching their own ideas.

[Kane0]

Mumble grumble... Kensei should’ve been a fighter subclass... mumble grumble...

[Amechra]

So I've been running some numbers, and I have to throw my support behind the people who want Kensei's Shot to auto-scale with your Martial Arts die. That would bring a Kensei Archer's average damage up to the dizzying heights of a standard Monk using their bonus action to make a single unarmed attack. It looks like adding another die would bring them up to "standard Monk using Flurry of Blows" levels.

I mean, the average damage lags behind by a point or two, but the variance/crits should make up for it.

Seriously, not getting that extra 2xDex to damage that a base Monk gets is murderous.

[Witty Username]

So I've been running some numbers, and I have to throw my support behind the people who want Kensei's Shot to auto-scale with your Martial Arts die. That would bring a Kensei Archer's average damage up to the dizzying heights of a standard Monk using their bonus action to make a single unarmed attack. It looks like adding another die would bring them up to "standard Monk using Flurry of Blows" levels.

I mean, the average damage lags behind by a point or two, but the variance/crits should make up for it.

Seriously, not getting that extra 2xDex to damage that a base Monk gets is murderous.
Fair enough, players being able to do that damage from 150/600 ft still makes me nervous sometimes though.

[Amechra]

Fair enough, players being able to do that damage from 150/600 ft still makes me nervous sometimes though.

You aren't dealing much more damage than a Rogue sneak-attacking, which can be done at equivalent ranges.

---

It's kind of interesting to look at older versions of Kensei. In the original version:

• Kensei weapons weren't Monk weapons, and you only got to pick three ever (at 3rd), but there was no limit on what kinds of martial weapons you could pick. Heavy Crossbow and Greatswords, anyone?
• Kensei Shot worked with melee weapons, but arguably you could only damage a creature with it once per turn.
• Agile Parry was even more terrible, since you'd be dealing 1+Str damage to trigger it (due to Martial Arts shutting off).
• Sharpen the Blade stacked with pre-existing magical bonuses.
• Most interestingly, Deft Strike used to be Precise Strike: "As a bonus action, give your next attack against a creature within 30ft Expertise". Seems like it would work really well with Sharpshooter.

The second (pre-published) version:

• You started with two Kensei weapons, and got an extra one with each subclass level. You had to start with a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. The weapons you can pick now match the published version, and Kensei weapons are Monk weapons.
• Kensei Shot is now in its modern form.
• Precise Strike is now Deft Strike with a different name.
• Sharpen the Blade stacked with pre-existing magical bonuses.

In the final version, they handed out an extra tool proficiency, renamed Precise Strike, and prevented Sharpen the Blade from stacking. They went from "yeah sure, GWM your Monk with three features that boost your accuracy" nonsense to the current state of affairs. And you know what? I'm glad about that.

EDIT: This is a much less disappointing nerf than the poor Arcane Archer. You used to get +1 arrows at 3rd level instead of "your arrows count as magic" at 7th.

---

As a "what could have been", I would've loved to see a version of the Kensei where they were a Battlemaster/College of Swords equivalent for the Monk. I might try fiddling with that...

[stoutstien]

Haven't had time to post last few days but something to keep in mind about monks, more so the kensei, is that they never will be the best at dealing damage in anyone circumstance but will always be able to be equally effective regardless. I can't think of any encounter that would drop the monks output substantially like the lack of melee targets from a Pam build or tight winding tunnels for the SS user.

It would be a good thought exercise to compare them when they shine and struggle to get a better picture of the monk in play.

[Amechra]

Haven't had time to post last few days but something to keep in mind about monks, more so the kensei, is that they never will be the best at dealing damage in anyone circumstance but will always be able to be equally effective regardless. I can't think of any encounter that would drop the monks output substantially like the lack of melee targets from a Pam build or tight winding tunnels for the SS user.

It would be a good thought exercise to compare them when they shine and struggle to get a better picture of the monk in play.

Another thing that would be interesting to look at is how much Stunning something improves the entire party's average damage. Monks are the earliest (and arguably most reliable) way to inflict stunning in the game (the other options are a 5th level spell, a 7th level spell, and an 8th level spell), and it gives out some huge benefits that can help the whole party:

1) Everyone has Advantage on attack rolls against the victim. The Rogue is guaranteed sneak attacks, everyone's chances to crit are (effectively) doubled, and it can overcome issues like attacking from prone and the like.
2) The victim automatically fails Dexterity and Strength saving throws. Hit them with a Fireball or whatever, and watch them fry.
3) They skip their turn. It's like a one-turn timestop for the whole party!

---

Amusingly, I think you could get an interesting Kensei out of the Half-Orc. Savage Attacker and Orcish Fury don't require Strength-based attacks, and having a little mini-Barbarian action would help your survivability as well as your damage.

[Trickery]

It would be a good thought exercise to compare them when they shine and struggle to get a better picture of the monk in play.

The worst encounter for a Monk, that I know of, is a big powerful creature with high con saves. It's likely that the Monk won't die if he's playing defensively, but he probably won't contribute much to the fight.

One of the things that's so good about open hand and drunken monks is that they're generally still able to do things even against targets like that.

[stoutstien]

The worst encounter for a Monk, that I know of, is a big powerful creature with high con saves. It's likely that the Monk won't die if he's playing defensively, but he probably won't contribute much to the fight.

One of the things that's so good about open hand and drunken monks is that they're generally still able to do things even against targets like that.

What do you consider not contributing in this case? With so many attacks the monk's average damage is good vs high AC targets and unless your DM is fudging roles to purposely prevent SS it is always on the table. Is it always the best use of ki? No, but it's there and it's cheap.

Not sure how drunken is better at big single targets when 3/4 of the subclass needs multiple targets to work. Maybe the free disengage? Not hating on the subclass as I feel it it one of the better ones. Redirect attack is such a good feature if your not fighting a bunch of monsters with reach.

[Amechra]

Not sure how drunken is better at big single targets when 3/4 of the subclass needs multiple targets to work. Maybe the free disengage? Not hating on the subclass as I feel it it one of the better ones. Redirect attack is such a good feature if your not fighting a bunch of monsters with reach.

Essentially, the Drunken Monk can always flurry, since it's pretty much impossible to keep them in place when they do (unless you give your monsters feats, I guess). The ability to walk in, make four attacks, then walk away without being counter-attacked is really strong.

I went through an entire campaign as a Drunken Monk where I used Redirect Attack... maybe twice? However, I got so much out of my flurries that I wasn't too mad about it.

[stoutstien]

Essentially, the Drunken Monk can always flurry, since it's pretty much impossible to keep them in place when they do (unless you give your monsters feats, I guess). The ability to walk in, make four attacks, then walk away without being counter-attacked is really strong.

I went through an entire campaign as a Drunken Monk where I used Redirect Attack... maybe twice? However, I got so much out of my flurries that I wasn't too mad about it.

Which is true but is 4 attacks and retreating more helpful than 2 attacks + patient defense where the NPC is attacking and potentially missing the monk including the NPCs reaction? Hard to say. This is where the where the math fails us and only actual game play can show a clearer picture.
I think the kensei will feel lacking as a damage focused subclass because it's strength is flexibly, survivability, and low ki usage.

[TyGuy]

Which is true but is 4 attacks and retreating more helpful than 2 attacks + patient defense where the NPC is attacking and potentially missing the monk including the NPCs reaction? Hard to say. This is where the where the math fails us and only actual game play can show a clearer picture.
I think the kensei will feel lacking as a damage focused subclass because it's strength is flexibly, survivability, and low ki usage.

Why is Kensei being considered the damage focused subclass?

[Bloodcloud]

I may be in the minority here,

but I pretty much wanted Kensei to be a Fighter with Unarmored Defense.

I'm also of the opinion that a monk-ish fighter subclass would have been better.

[stoutstien]

Why is Kensei being considered the damage focused subclass?
*Shrugs* don't know but it seems to be a sore point is lack of damage.

[Vogie]

Why is Kensei being considered the damage focused subclass?

Maybe that's the problem - perhaps, they were never supposed to be. We started this discussion with this assumption, and it's potentially a faulty one.

If you look at the class, it doesn't actually lean towards MOAR DAMAAAGE.

Agile Parry is basically a shield
Deft Strike is basically a smite
Unerring Accuracy is only once a turn
Sharpen the Blade + Magic Kensei weapons give attacks more power... but there's less attacks.

Compare this to:

Open hand can use FoB to strikes a target prone, potentially saving points from stunning strikes. It encourages the controly-mobile style of fighting that people are used to.
Drunken Master has free athletics & mobile feats when fighting, so they dance in the
Long Death encourages the monk to stay close with THP, control via fear, and being hard to kill
Shadow is the Sneaky/Teleporty focused subclass
Sun Soul is the AOE/Ranged Radiant damage focused subclass

I think that Kensei ISN'T the damage focused subclass. It's the subclass that can either be the tank or... a single-target ranged character, which the other ones can't really do. Long Death is only tanky if there's little things to kill to refresh the THP, and Sun Soul only has a range of 30 ft or less until they get their fireball Sunburst at 11.

A tanky Kensei acts like a Paladin - Strikes with their +3 magic Longsword, rerolling if it's a miss, Deft Striking if it's a crit, then throws an unarmed strike for higher AC. A normal high level one will easily have 22 AC before any bracers of defense are picked up.
A Ranged Kensei acts like a Ranger - A pair of attacks from their +3 Longbow, dealing an additional 2d4 damage (compared to a colossus hunter's +1d8), smiting on crits, and rerolling their misses from 150 ft away.

They're *not* the damage focused subclass - they're the ones emulating their 'half magic' counterparts. It's also the class that can let the player use whatever weapon for their story reason - Whips, darts, scimitars, hand crossbows, tridents... heck, even a blowgun (not recommended, but could technically be picked).

[Trickery]

Because it was asked earlier, I consider contributing to an encounter to mean filling a useful role. Casting cantrips over and over (unless you're a warlock) is not a meaningful contribution. Bringing people back up when they go down, dealing competent damage, dealing AoE damage, having high AC and HP and soaking up attacks, buffs, crowd control, killing hard to reach targets, those are all examples of meaningful contribution.

The monk, generally speaking, is pretty decent at the last two. It can kill hard to reach targets and it can sometimes stun lock creatures. If there are no hard to reach targets or stunnable creatures in the encounter, then the standard Monk isn't going to contribute much to the encounter. Sure, he won't die, probably. But how does that help the party?

To be fair, the only thing Rogues do in most encounters is deal competent damage and not die. But the Rogue is also useful outside of combat. The Monk might be, or might not be. It just depends on the Monk and the campaign.

Kensei could be brought up to the level of competent, rogue-like or lesser than Fighter-like damage without being overpowered from the perspective of the roles it fills.

[Misterwhisper]

Because it was asked earlier, I consider contributing to an encounter to mean filling a useful role. Casting cantrips over and over (unless you're a warlock) is not a meaningful contribution. Bringing people back up when they go down, dealing competent damage, dealing AoE damage, having high AC and HP and soaking up attacks, buffs, crowd control, killing hard to reach targets, those are all examples of meaningful contribution.

The monk, generally speaking, is pretty decent at the last two. It can kill hard to reach targets and it can sometimes stun lock creatures. If there are no hard to reach targets or stunnable creatures in the encounter, then the standard Monk isn't going to contribute much to the encounter. Sure, he won't die, probably. But how does that help the party?

To be fair, the only thing Rogues do in most encounters is deal competent damage and not die. But the Rogue is also useful outside of combat. The Monk might be, or might not be. It just depends on the Monk and the campaign.

Kensei could be brought up to the level of competent, rogue-like or lesser than Fighter-like damage without being overpowered from the perspective of the roles it fills.

This is multiple times you have said that monks should be brought up to rogue level damage or about rogues having great damage in general?

Where are you getting this from?

At no point will a rogue do more damage than a monk on average if they are the same level, flurry is just that good.

[AdAstra]

At least in terms of Agile Parry, wouldn't an easy solution be to give Kensei a melee equivalent to Deflect Missiles? Probably shouldn't be quite as strong, but say, a reaction to reduce damage by Martial Arts Die+Monk level? Then if damage is reduced completely allow for 1 ki point to spent to make an attack against the blocked creature? Seems like a pretty elegant solution, save for using a different calculation than Deflect Missiles (regrettably necessary imo).

EDIT: Kensei's shot seems fine as-is, a small but valuable boost to an area where Monks normally lack.

For Deft Strike, maybe an iajutsu-style single strike? Spend 1 ki point and a bonus action to make an attack doing x martial arts die + Dex/Str worth of damage as an action, maybe with advantage? Maybe even have it be a line-shaped AOE with a dex save for half?

[Amechra]

Because it was asked earlier, I consider contributing to an encounter to mean filling a useful role. Casting cantrips over and over (unless you're a warlock) is not a meaningful contribution. Bringing people back up when they go down, dealing competent damage, dealing AoE damage, having high AC and HP and soaking up attacks, buffs, crowd control, killing hard to reach targets, those are all examples of meaningful contribution.

The monk, generally speaking, is pretty decent at the last two. It can kill hard to reach targets and it can sometimes stun lock creatures. If there are no hard to reach targets or stunnable creatures in the encounter, then the standard Monk isn't going to contribute much to the encounter. Sure, he won't die, probably. But how does that help the party?

To be fair, the only thing Rogues do in most encounters is deal competent damage and not die. But the Rogue is also useful outside of combat. The Monk might be, or might not be. It just depends on the Monk and the campaign.

Kensei could be brought up to the level of competent, rogue-like or lesser than Fighter-like damage without being overpowered from the perspective of the roles it fills.

I ran the numbers - if you don't factor in feats (which are an optional subsystem), a Monk beats out a sneak-attacking Rogue damage-wise from 1st to 10th level without Flurry, and all the way until 18th level if they are Flurrying. If we say that Rogues deal competent damage, Monks also deal competent damage. They just need a damage-improving feat if you're using those, not a poorly thought-out subclass.

As for there being no stunnable creatures in an encounter... stun immunity is super rare, and high saves (and Legendary Resistance) can be overcome by spamming Stunning Strike. As for how not-dying can help the party... I dunno, take Healer or something, to help your allies not die as well.

Oh, and if you count tanking... I think Vogie's on the right track vis-a-vis Kensei being the Defender Monk instead of the Striker Monk.

[Trickery]

This is multiple times you have said that monks should be brought up to rogue level damage or about rogues having great damage in general?

Where are you getting this from?

At no point will a rogue do more damage than a monk on average if they are the same level, flurry is just that good.

Please see https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/4i1dff/the_optimists_guide_to_dd_5e_damage_by_class_and/.

Monks sound great for damage until you do the math. In practice, they deal about as much damage as a Valor Bard in the long run. This is because their damage features max out early on and don't grow the same way other class' damage features do. The result is they the Monk's party role changes over time from damage to crowd control. Again, Monks can be hard to kill at any level, but that's not a party role. They're only hard to kill if they're avoiding getting attacked, unlike a proper tank.

[Amechra]

Please see https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/4i1dff/the_optimists_guide_to_dd_5e_damage_by_class_and/.

Monks sound great for damage until you do the math. In practice, they deal about as much damage as a Valor Bard in the long run. This is because their damage features max out early on and don't grow the same way other class' damage features do. The result is they the Monk's party role changes over time from damage to crowd control. Again, Monks can be hard to kill at any level, but that's not a party role. They're only hard to kill if they're avoiding getting attacked, unlike a proper tank.

The numbers there are a bit misleading vis-a-vis Monks and Rogues. If anything, you should compare the Monk with the no-advantage Rogue row, since pretty much everyone gets a comparable damage multiplier with advantage.

[Trickery]

The numbers there are a bit misleading vis-a-vis Monks and Rogues. If anything, you should compare the Monk with the no-advantage Rogue row, since pretty much everyone gets a comparable damage multiplier with advantage.

The rogue only needs advantage on one attack and has bonus action hide to do it. The Help action from a familiar or ally is also enough for a Rogue - not so for any other class since Help only works on one attack. Thus we can accurately say that it's much easier for a Rogue to get Advantage than a Monk.

[stoutstien]

Maybe that's the problem - perhaps, they were never supposed to be. We started this discussion with this assumption, and it's potentially a faulty one.

If you look at the class, it doesn't actually lean towards MOAR DAMAAAGE.

Agile Parry is basically a shield
Deft Strike is basically a smite
Unerring Accuracy is only once a turn
Sharpen the Blade + Magic Kensei weapons give attacks more power... but there's less attacks.

Compare this to:

Open hand can use FoB to strikes a target prone, potentially saving points from stunning strikes. It encourages the controly-mobile style of fighting that people are used to.
Drunken Master has free athletics & mobile feats when fighting, so they dance in the
Long Death encourages the monk to stay close with THP, control via fear, and being hard to kill
Shadow is the Sneaky/Teleporty focused subclass
Sun Soul is the AOE/Ranged Radiant damage focused subclass

I think that Kensei ISN'T the damage focused subclass. It's the subclass that can either be the tank or... a single-target ranged character, which the other ones can't really do. Long Death is only tanky if there's little things to kill to refresh the THP, and Sun Soul only has a range of 30 ft or less until they get their fireball Sunburst at 11.

A tanky Kensei acts like a Paladin - Strikes with their +3 magic Longsword, rerolling if it's a miss, Deft Striking if it's a crit, then throws an unarmed strike for higher AC. A normal high level one will easily have 22 AC before any bracers of defense are picked up.
A Ranged Kensei acts like a Ranger - A pair of attacks from their +3 Longbow, dealing an additional 2d4 damage (compared to a colossus hunter's +1d8), smiting on crits, and rerolling their misses from 150 ft away.

They're *not* the damage focused subclass - they're the ones emulating their 'half magic' counterparts. It's also the class that can let the player use whatever weapon for their story reason - Whips, darts, scimitars, hand crossbows, tridents... heck, even a blowgun (not recommended, but could technically be picked).

I agree. Kensei are the tank/range option and as I said, can switch between without missing a beat. Not a bad kit overall once you get a good feel for it. Now I want to play one to see it from the player's perspective.

A beast hide shifter kensei.
Longbow and handaxe for first weapons for fun.

[Misterwhisper]

I agree. Kensei are the tank/range option and as I said, can switch between without missing a beat. Not a bad kit overall once you get a good feel for it. Now I want to play one to see it from the player's perspective.

A beast hide shifter kensei.
Longbow and handaxe for first weapons for fun.

Honestly everything about Kensei would work fine if they would add one little line.

You may choose unarmed strike as your Kensei weapon.

That way you can fight unarmed all the time and get a little ac and you have the option of getting +1,2,3

[Zalabim]

Honestly everything about Kensei would work fine if they would add one little line.

You may choose unarmed strike as your Kensei weapon.

That way you can fight unarmed all the time and get a little ac and you have the option of getting +1,2,3

That would eventually be a large damage boost as it lets you make your flurry of blows attacks with a kensei weapon, and thus apply the benefits more often than any other weapon choice. The best weapon to choose for Kensei would be unarmed. I feel that would be letting the monk override the kensei.


The rogue only needs advantage on one attack and has bonus action hide to do it. The Help action from a familiar or ally is also enough for a Rogue - not so for any other class since Help only works on one attack. Thus we can accurately say that it's much easier for a Rogue to get Advantage than a Monk.

It is easier to give a rogue advantage, but in comparison the monk is able to give everyone advantage. The spreadsheet is also using 55% as the base accuracy which makes advantage itself as important as it can be and doesn't have any line for a monk attacking with advantage even though they get stunning strike and later improved invisibility. Rogue does still average a bit better damage on a round than a monk a lot of times, but that's also not including either class's subclass abilities. I feel like the monk could have 4-8 more average damage by level 20 without breaking the game (scaling up martial arts die faster so they reach d12, for example.)

[TyGuy]

Honestly everything about Kensei would work fine if they would add one little line.

You may choose unarmed strike as your Kensei weapon.

That way you can fight unarmed all the time and get a little ac and you have the option of getting +1,2,3
That's kind of the opposite of the point of this thread and the proposed changes...

[Misterwhisper]

That would eventually be a large damage boost as it lets you make your flurry of blows attacks with a kensei weapon, and thus apply the benefits more often than any other weapon choice. The best weapon to choose for Kensei would be unarmed. I feel that would be letting the monk override the kensei.



It is easier to give a rogue advantage, but in comparison the monk is able to give everyone advantage. The spreadsheet is also using 55% as the base accuracy which makes advantage itself as important as it can be and doesn't have any line for a monk attacking with advantage even though they get stunning strike and later improved invisibility. Rogue does still average a bit better damage on a round than a monk a lot of times, but that's also not including either class's subclass abilities. I feel like the monk could have 4-8 more average damage by level 20 without breaking the game (scaling up martial arts die faster so they reach d12, for example.)


That's kind of the opposite of the point of this thread and the proposed changes...

That would not allow a Kensei to attack with all Kensei weapons as part of a flurry or martial arts attack, it specifies unarmed strike in those abilities.

It just happens that unarmed strike is also a Kensei weapon.


Also the point of the thread is fixing Kensei, that would do it with the least change.

[Max_Killjoy]

As a few others have noted... I'd start with immediately ditching the idea that the weapon-master has to attack bare-handed to get one of the basic special benefits of her weapon.

No traction at all for the kensei (weapon master) being able to attack with their weapon and still get the AC bonus, instead of being forced to smack people with their hand or foot in order to get the AC bonus from their weapon?

[TyGuy]

Also the point of the thread is fixing Kensei, that would do it with the least change.



Ok, Kensei is the weapon master monk style. Cool concept, cool flavor, poor execution. It’s riddled with issues like things that don’t scale, something that incentivizes NOT using your weapon to attack (fewer weapon attacks for the weapon master… what?) and an important feature that becomes completely useless if you want to use a +1 or greater weapon. Eesh.


Further incentivizing eschewing weapons doesn't address the issues I presented.

[TyGuy]

No traction at all for the kensei (weapon master) being able to attack with their weapon and still get the AC bonus, instead of being forced to smack people with their hand or foot in order to get the AC bonus from their weapon?

Problem with that is that it's practically an always-on feature at that point and may as well be a static bonus. A potential gripe about a static bonus is that it's not as flashy or meaningful as something that has to be activated (something that's a choice to use).

I tried to make as few changes possible by only slightly modifying existing features and proposing one new one. But the more I think about it, maybe linking agile parry with patient defense means it should be more impactful and scale better, since it is sacrificing an extra attack or the opportunity cost of a disengage/dash/flurry. I think making the AC bonus based on Wis mod might be the way to go.

[Reevh]

So many XGtE subclasses look awesome and so few truly are.:frown:

I mean Path of the Zealot, College of Swords, Forge Domain, Grave Domain, Circle of the Shepherd, Circle of Dreams, Cavalier, Samurai, Swashbuckler, Divine Soul, Hexblade, Mastermind, and War Magic are all extremely strong sub-classes. And there are a whole lot more that aren't as strong, but have great flavor like the College of Whispers, the Inquisitive, Way of the Drunken Master, Horizon Walker, Shadow Magic, etc.

XtGE is replete with fantastic sub-classes.

[georgie_leech]

Problem with that is that it's practically an always-on feature at that point and may as well be a static bonus. A potential gripe about a static bonus is that it's not as flashy or meaningful as something that has to be activated (something that's a choice to use).

I tried to make as few changes possible by only slightly modifying existing features and proposing one new one. But the more I think about it, maybe linking agile parry with patient defense means it should be more impactful and scale better, since it is sacrificing an extra attack or the opportunity cost of a disengage/dash/flurry. I think making the AC bonus based on Wis mod might be the way to go.

Alternatively, what if it was the static bonus, but it applied any time the Kensai doesn't attack on their turn? Regardless of what they use the action for, if it isn't an attack, they keep their weapon poised and centered, ready to parry any incoming blow.

If it feels like that incentivizes not attacking too much, but that Monks should still be doing something to get the bonus, maybe have an exception for attacks involving ki (stunning strikes, FoB). Have the mental focus required not interpretation their defensive rhythm or something.

[stoutstien]

Alternatively, what if it was the static bonus, but it applied any time the Kensai doesn't attack on their turn? Regardless of what they use the action for, if it isn't an attack, they keep their weapon poised and centered, ready to parry any incoming blow.

If it feels like that incentivizes not attacking too much, but that Monks should still be doing something to get the bonus, maybe have an exception for attacks involving ki (stunning strikes, FoB). Have the mental focus required not interpretation their defensive rhythm or something.

Tie it in patient defense but make the AC boost last longer. Maybe for a number of rounds equal to wisdom mod or until they get hit by a melee attack.