Ring of Wizardry and Pearl of Power pricing

[Biggus]

Can anyone explain to me the logic of the pricing of the Ring of Wizardry?

Normal rings

1: 20,000GP
2: 40,000GP
3: 70,000GP
4: 100,000GP

Epic rings

5: 250,000GP
6: 360,000GP
7: 490,000GP
8: 640,000GP
9: 810,000GP

The Epic rings follow a simple formula of spell level squared x10,000GP, while the normal ones don't seem to follow any formula at all. I understand that some magic items have their prices adjusted because they'd be too useful or not useful enough for their price using the standard formulas, but I can't really see the logic here. For example, by the time the level 1 ring is affordable 1st-level spells have very little effect on your overall power level, so I'm struggling to see why someone would spend 20,000GP on one. And why is a level 5 ring worth 2.5x what a level 4 ring is?

While I'm on the subject of item pricing: does anyone know why the Pearl of Power which can store two spells of maximum levels 5 and 6 costs 70,000GP, when separate level 5 and 6 Pearls cost only 61,000GP put together? They don't take up space on the body, their weight is negligible, they take a standard action to activate so I don't see them getting used in combat much, so what's the big advantage of having one Pearl instead of two?

[StevenC21]

Bad design.

[Elkad]

I allow them to double all your spell slots, not just base ones. Which is the way they used to work.

They are still overpriced. But if I drop one as loot, the wizard sure doesn't sell it.

They do help with preparation on your wizard, where a Pearl doesn't. Having 8 1st level slots (4 extra) means 8 different spells prepared. That's a lot more useful than leaving slots open during the day and spending 15 minutes to memorize the correct one.
With my houserule, it's even more than that. 3 base, 2 stat, 1 specialist, 2 focused specialist. So 8 extra spells.

Of course some of that you can manage with scrolls. But a scroll won't cast Feather Fall for you.
You still carry pearls to get your combat stuff back (or for buff routines - Mage Armor for you, your familiar, the animal companion, and the monk)

[PanosIs]

Just play an Ultimate Magus and get 10+ spell slots for your money. Use those spellslots for free metamagic. Profit.

[noob]

The pearl of wizardry does not have the cost doubling from slotlessness because of the need to be used and the limitations.
The ring of wizardry should cost as having 6 spellslots 1 being slotted(having an item) and the 5 remaining ones being slotless(not having an item) so 11 times the cost of a spellslot(assuming the wearer is a sorcerer) but for level 1 spell it costs more and for higher level slots it costs less.
But it looks as if they did round it to 10 times the cost of a lone spellslot for epic rings and used a more or less random formulae for baseline ones.

[ayvango]

I allow them to double all your spell slots, not just base ones. Which is the way they used to work.

They are still overpriced. But if I drop one as loot, the wizard sure doesn't sell it.

If I was that wizard I would sell the ring for sure. I would not ever bother myself with searching merchant to trade, just sacrifice the ring to the ancestral relic runestaff.

[Biggus]

OK, it appears it's not just me then, the pricing of the rings really doesn't make any sense. Any thoughts on what they ought to cost?

[ayvango]

Any thoughts on what they ought to cost?
1. Make rings works on bonus spells too. So ring applications would be tied to other characteristics. In that case character would keep rings even if they works subpar on early game to gain more benefit later. It drags players to explore game content deeper.

2. Use 1.5x cost of pearl of power because providing extra slots are more flexible then restore used.
2. Consider 1st level allotment of 8 slots, 2nd level - 7 slots, 3rd level - 7 slots, 4th level - 6 slots.

That would give 12k for ring of wizardry 1, 42k for ring of wizardry 2, 94.5k for ring of wizardry 3, 144k for ring of wizardry 4.

Pretty much, but you could give some discount for wholesale. Like 10k for 1, 34k for 2, 80k for 3, 123k for 4.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, you could just follow the formula for the epic rings*. With that, the rings still cost ten times more than a pearl of power, so you could multiply their price by .5 or .6 or .7. That would make a ring of wizardry a superior option for most classes, in terms of slots gained, but since the slots are limited in level and must be bought in bulk, they're less versatile.


*Edit: this is very close to what ayvango's system works out to: 10 000 for I, 40 000 for II, 90 000 for III, and 160 000 for IV.

[Telonius]

I'll try to use the "creating magic items" guidelines to help figure this out. So let's say we're making a gizmo that's use-activated, that casts four level-four spells a day at CL 13 (which is when a Wizard maxes out at 4 spell slots). Spell level (4) * Caster Level (13)*2000 / (5/4 per day) = 83,200. That's what the price would be for an item that casts one specific spell in the same way that a Ring of Wizardry would. So whatever the final cost is, it would have to be higher than that, since the flexibility is worth quite a bit.

A gizmo that casts Limited Wish 4/day (to replicate a 5th-level Wizard spell) would be [(7*13*2000)/1.25]+(5*300xp*100) = 295,600gp. That does get you a higher level spell than the Ring usually would. (It might be notable that Limited Wish is the spell listed as a prereq for creating the ring).

So whatever cost scheme you come up with, the price of a Ring IV should fall somewhere between 83,200 and 295,600gp.

[StevenC21]

Just play an Ultimate Magus and get 10+ spell slots for your money. Use those spellslots for free metamagic. Profit.

Please explain?

[Elkad]

Please explain?

Ultimate Magus would have both his Wizard and Sorcerer(Beguiler?) slots doubled. So he'd get a lot more use out of the ring.

But absent early entry shenanigans, and Practiced Spellcaster to keep your top class at full progression, you are a couple spell levels behind on your top slots.

[Kurald Galain]

*Edit: this is very close to what ayvango's system works out to: 10 000 for I, 40 000 for II, 90 000 for III, and 160 000 for IV.

The main problem with this progression is that by the time you can afford a ring, you don't need to double that level's spell slots any more. Like, why would a ninth-level wizard care whether he has 6, 10, or even 20 first-level slots?

[Biggus]

Well, you could just follow the formula for the epic rings*. With that, the rings still cost ten times more than a pearl of power, so you could multiply their price by .5 or .6 or .7.

Yeah, this is what I'm leaning towards currently, somewhere between spell level squared x5000GP and spell level squared x7500GP.

[Elkad]

The main problem with this progression is that by the time you can afford a ring, you don't need to double that level's spell slots any more. Like, why would a ninth-level wizard care whether he has 6, 10, or even 20 first-level slots?

Because spamming 1st level spells all over makes me feel like a wizard? I can Mage Armor all the things in the morning (myself, my familiar, the monk, the animal companion), have plenty of Blockade spells to throw around with my swift actions, Nerveskitter every combat, have a Feather Fall ready for that pit, etc.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The main problem with this progression is that by the time you can afford a ring, you don't need to double that level's spell slots any more. Like, why would a ninth-level wizard care whether he has 6, 10, or even 20 first-level slots?
*shrug* There are good first-level spells to be found. And I did say that you might want to multiply the price by .5 to .7. Then again, 4500 gp will buy 50 charges of 6 different spells, so 5 000 might still be a bit high. Slots are more flexible, in that you can transition from mage armour and shield to additional utility as you level up, but 300 firsts for 4500 gp is hard to beat.

[Kurald Galain]

Because spamming 1st level spells all over makes me feel like a wizard?
While I certainly agree with that thought, you can do that for much cheaper (and more importantly, at lower level) with wands, scrolls, pearls, a reserve feat, Pathfinder's infinite-use cantrips, or even a one-level warlock dip. Even without any of that, a 9th-level wizard's 27 slots already cover pretty much all of what you said.

[Biggus]

Hadn't really thought about wands, but it's a good point, it's already perfectly possible to spam 1st-level spells at low levels if you want to. And if you're worried about them eventually running out there's also Eternal Wands from the MiC which cost about the same.

So if we were to go with spell level squared x5000GP we'd get:

1: 5,000GP
2: 20,000GP
3: 45,000GP
4: 80,000GP
5: 125,000GP
6: 180,000GP
7: 245,000GP
8: 320,000GP
9: 405,000GP

5th and 6th level rings become nonepic items, but that doesn't seem particularly game-breaking to me, by the time you can afford them you'll have 8th-level spells at the very least, probably 9th. Can anyone see any problems with pricing them like this?

[Kurald Galain]

So if we were to go with spell level squared x5000GP we'd get:
Let's see...

Assuming you spend no more than one-third of your WBL on one item, you can afford the L1 ring by level 7, the L2 ring by level 11, L3 by level 13, L4 by level 16, L5 by level 18, and the rest basically never.

That's... not great. The L1 ring is still marginally relevant by level 7, but the rest basically isn't useful by the time you can afford them. Frankly, pearls of power and wands have the same issue (in that L1 pearls and wands are a good pick, and the L2 versions are pretty expensive for what they do, and the L3 and higher basically aren't worth it).

[Biggus]

Let's see...

Assuming you spend no more than one-third of your WBL on one item, you can afford the L1 ring by level 7, the L2 ring by level 11, L3 by level 13, L4 by level 16, L5 by level 18, and the rest basically never.

That's... not great. The L1 ring is still marginally relevant by level 7, but the rest basically isn't useful by the time you can afford them. Frankly, pearls of power and wands have the same issue (in that L1 pearls and wands are a good pick, and the L2 versions are pretty expensive for what they do, and the L3 and higher basically aren't worth it).

Ha, I meant "does anyone see any problem with such large reductions in the prices", but fair point. I'm a bit wary of reducing them much more, the 1st-level ring is already one-quarter of its standard price and most of the others about half. I'm not looking to make them must-have items, just something that won't automatically get sold if you get one.

What do you think would be a fair price for them?

[Elkad]

While I certainly agree with that thought, you can do that for much cheaper (and more importantly, at lower level) with wands, scrolls, pearls, a reserve feat, Pathfinder's infinite-use cantrips, or even a one-level warlock dip. Even without any of that, a 9th-level wizard's 27 slots already cover pretty much all of what you said.

At the current pricing (and with the base spells only restriction), sure. Especially if you gave up base slots for Focused Specialist.
At half the price, and doubling all my slots, I'll take the ring every time. Even at full price, if it doubles all my slots it's worth consideration.

I'd consider a prefered mid-level loadout in 1st level slots to be something like Mage Armor, Nerveskitter, Magic Missile, Feather Fall, Blockade, Enlarge Person, Longstrider, and Shield. Several of those I'm going to want every combat (or for multiple party members), so I'll need a dozen pearls as well, even if I have 8 slots. (20-27 int and focused specialist).

Nerveskitter I could wand. Shield and Enlarge person I could as well, if I'm not concerned about Dispel, but the extra duration is nice to speed-clear several rooms and then go back and search for treasure. Or in the case of Shield, if my familiar is off on a scouting mission. The hour/level stuff is critical to be at full CL, both for duration and dispel resistance. Magic Missile could be a CL9 wand I guess, it's mostly used for clearing Mirror Image (yes, I'm aware of the rules debate on that) or the occasional incorporeal - (Eternal Wand if I banned Evocation). And I'd still like an empty slot or two in case I decide I need a Tenser's Disk or Reduce Person or something else I didn't plan for, without filling half my pack with scrolls (and emptying half my XP bar making them).


20k for 3 slots on my focused specialist? No way.
20k for 8 more slots (multiplying all slots, but no price reduction) isn't efficient. But it adds breadth, and it's fun. Aren't we supposed to be having fun?
10k (half price) for 8 more slots? Directly competitive with pearls.

And if I take a sorc(beguiler) level and spend a feat (practiced caster) on chasing Ultimate Magus, it's value shoots skyward. Costs me a caster level (and a 2nd at UM7)

[RNightstalker]

Hadn't really thought about wands, but it's a good point, it's already perfectly possible to spam 1st-level spells at low levels if you want to. And if you're worried about them eventually running out there's also Eternal Wands from the MiC which cost about the same.

So if we were to go with spell level squared x5000GP we'd get:

1: 5,000GP
2: 20,000GP
3: 45,000GP
4: 80,000GP
5: 125,000GP
6: 180,000GP
7: 245,000GP
8: 320,000GP
9: 405,000GP

5th and 6th level rings become nonepic items, but that doesn't seem particularly game-breaking to me, by the time you can afford them you'll have 8th-level spells at the very least, probably 9th. Can anyone see any problems with pricing them like this?

I pause to ask if I want to make one of the better classes in the game even more potent? I do see the frustration with the unclear pricing, but there are a lot of things that are not clear to pricing.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The ring lets you prepare different spells, the pearl has to be duplicates of the same spell. And the pearl has to be used as an action and thus can't be used that easily mid-combat.
It's not much, but it's something.

Frankly, I don't even care if the ring is overpriced because...


I pause to ask if I want to make one of the better classes in the game even more potent? I do see the frustration with the unclear pricing, but there are a lot of things that are not clear to pricing.

Thank you. Too much asking, "can we?" and not enough asking, "should we?"

[Bphill561]

I agree the rings are priced pretty high for what they do. The only trick I found where they are relavent is with the Arcane Manipulation feat from Lost Empires of Faerun. It let's you break down three slots into a number of lower slots, so for instance you could break a 6th level slot into a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Playing a shadowcraft mage with residual metamagic tricks, three 9th level slots burned nets you 27 + 3 base first level spell slots (focused specialist). The feat makes actual spell slots in place of the old and it does not designate them as bonus slots from high ability scores like so many other extra slot abilities. So that ring of wizardry level one nets you 30 extra level one spell slots, which are pretty good considering 2 level 1 spell slots on your heightened silent image grants you a 10th level spell. You don't have to use 9th level slots, just an example and you will get far less mileage on a non-shadowcraft mage.

[Biggus]

I pause to ask if I want to make one of the better classes in the game even more potent? I do see the frustration with the unclear pricing, but there are a lot of things that are not clear to pricing.



Too much asking, "can we?" and not enough asking, "should we?"

The thing is, I've NEVER known anyone buy a Ring of Wizardry. Have you?

If an item is so overpriced that nobody ever uses it, it might as well not exist, the DM might as well just add half its price in gold to the loot if it comes up as random treasure and save everyone a bit of time.

As I said earlier in the thread, I'm not trying to make them into a must-have item, just into something that someone might decide to keep if they get one rather than automatically sell it because they know they can buy something more useful with the gold.

[Kurald Galain]

The thing is, I've NEVER known anyone buy a Ring of Wizardry. Have you?
No. Then again, the same applies to easily 75% of all items printed in the handbooks. There are a lot of overpriced and/or undereffective items in existence.


At half the price, and doubling all my slots, I'll take the ring every time. Even at full price, if it doubles all my slots it's worth consideration.
Yes, that's precisely my point. Under those conditions, you and I would buy the level 1 ring. But still not the higher level ones.

[RNightstalker]

I agree the rings are priced pretty high for what they do. The only trick I found where they are relavent is with the Arcane Manipulation feat from Lost Empires of Faerun. It let's you break down three slots into a number of lower slots, so for instance you could break a 6th level slot into a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Playing a shadowcraft mage with residual metamagic tricks, three 9th level slots burned nets you 27 + 3 base first level spell slots (focused specialist). The feat makes actual spell slots in place of the old and it does not designate them as bonus slots from high ability scores like so many other extra slot abilities. So that ring of wizardry level one nets you 30 extra level one spell slots, which are pretty good considering 2 level 1 spell slots on your heightened silent image grants you a 10th level spell. You don't have to use 9th level slots, just an example and you will get far less mileage on a non-shadowcraft mage.

Can you imagine an encounter where a character will have the chance to burn all those spell slots?!

[Bphill561]

Can you imagine an encounter where a character will have the chance to burn all those spell slots?!

Ha, it makes me feel like a warlock. I did not mention the 30 level 1 pearls of power thrown in for good measure.

With the metamagic reducers (including arcane thesis), the level 1 spell slot counts as a 6th level spell (starting from a level 0 silent image). Residual Magic on the second round allows a Persistence Miracle (ocular spell as needed) with a level 1 spell slot (heighten added for free with residual). With all the alternative class features and the rainbow vale location, those persistent spells last 12 days. Worse, I took the epic Tenacious spell which means my 40 some persistent silent images come back in 1d4 rounds if disjoined. Now if I only had level 24 for the artifact lord epic destiny ability to cancel disjunction effects on equipment.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The thing is, I've NEVER known anyone buy a Ring of Wizardry. Have you?

If an item is so overpriced that nobody ever uses it, it might as well not exist, the DM might as well just add half its price in gold to the loot if it comes up as random treasure and save everyone a bit of time.

As I said earlier in the thread, I'm not trying to make them into a must-have item, just into something that someone might decide to keep if they get one rather than automatically sell it because they know they can buy something more useful with the gold.

Never seen someone buy one, no. Same for most magic items. I have seen people keep one from loot, at least for a while until they want to buy something specific and need the money. If you're giving everyone equal loot and having them "buy back" items from it at the sell price (how I and most other groups I've been in have done it), then there's no real loss in taking a non-expendable item and using it for a while. When you decide to sell it, you get the money back that you paid for it. Honestly, if you're saving up for a big purchase, it kind of is better to treat some small expensive wondrous item as a form of "bank" for your savings, rather than keeping a ton of coins/gems, even aside from the fact you're getting a mechanical benefit out of what otherwise would've been loose change.

[Segev]

I’ve bought a ring of wizardry IV on an epic sorcerer before. He had a lot of spells he essentially wanted to spam as self-buffs from that level. It gave him enough slots that he essentially never worried about running out even using them casually.

[Biggus]

No. Then again, the same applies to easily 75% of all items printed in the handbooks. There are a lot of overpriced and/or undereffective items in existence.



Never seen someone buy one, no. Same for most magic items. I have seen people keep one from loot, at least for a while until they want to buy something specific and need the money.

It's true that there are a lot of overpriced magic items out there, WotC admitted as much in the introduction to the MiC. Has there ever been a large-scale attempt to reprice DMG items, like the LA-assignment threads?


If you're giving everyone equal loot and having them "buy back" items from it at the sell price (how I and most other groups I've been in have done it)

Not quite sure what you mean by "buy back" here?


I’ve bought a ring of wizardry IV on an epic sorcerer before. He had a lot of spells he essentially wanted to spam as self-buffs from that level. It gave him enough slots that he essentially never worried about running out even using them casually.

Yeah, the RoW IV is the only one I've ever seriously considered buying, it's about the only one which seems like it might be worth its standard price (also there seem to be a lot of very useful level 4 spells for some reason). As it happens, it's the only one which comes out fairly close to the original price using the formula Mortis suggested.

[Crichton]

Not quite sure what you mean by "buy back" here?


Many (maybe most) tables allow party members to buy loot items from the party loot after an adventure, for the same price they'd get if the party sold it for cash to split (for example, a Pearl of Power 1 would sell for half it's list price, which ends up being 500gp, so if one shows up in the loot drops, a party member can buy it from the group for 500gp instead of the party selling it off and splitting the 500gp cash)


In this way, a party member can get an item for half its listed price, use it for a while, and then if they need money for something else, or find a better item for that slot, they can, at that point, sell it for the same amount they paid for it. So there's no loss to the player, monetarily, to grab one for a while and then sell it off later.

[Blackhawk748]

The main problem with this progression is that by the time you can afford a ring, you don't need to double that level's spell slots any more. Like, why would a ninth-level wizard care whether he has 6, 10, or even 20 first-level slots?

Because of metamagic abuse on a Mailman caster? Seriously, the most useful straight combat spells for metamagic risers are 1st and 2nd level. That ring is great

[RNightstalker]

Because of metamagic abuse on a Mailman caster? Seriously, the most useful straight combat spells for metamagic risers are 1st and 2nd level. That ring is great

Can you explain that with a few examples?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Many (maybe most) tables allow party members to buy loot items from the party loot after an adventure, for the same price they'd get if the party sold it for cash to split (for example, a Pearl of Power 1 would sell for half it's list price, which ends up being 500gp, so if one shows up in the loot drops, a party member can buy it from the group for 500gp instead of the party selling it off and splitting the 500gp cash)


In this way, a party member can get an item for half its listed price, use it for a while, and then if they need money for something else, or find a better item for that slot, they can, at that point, sell it for the same amount they paid for it. So there's no loss to the player, monetarily, to grab one for a while and then sell it off later.

Yup, this is what I meant.

In character, you're not buying it "back" since it was never technically sold. But tossing in an amount of money to the pot that the item would sell for is mathematically the same.
I guess a more intuitive way to describe it is "deduct its sale price from your share of the gp" (but in some cases you might need to toss in some spare gold you've been saving up to afford it, too)

[Blackhawk748]

Can you explain that with a few examples?

The good old Magic Missile for starters. You put on Arcane Thesis and begin stacking low cost Metamagic on it to smack your opponent with guranteed damage.

For 2nd level its Scorching Ray

[Kurald Galain]

Because of metamagic abuse on a Mailman caster? Seriously, the most useful straight combat spells for metamagic risers are 1st and 2nd level. That ring is great

That's a very good build.

It's also a build aimed at ending combat as quickly as possible, and by the time it comes online it easily has 30 or more spells per day. So it doesn't really benefit from a ring of wizardry.

[Bphill561]

That's a very good build.

It's also a build aimed at ending combat as quickly as possible, and by the time it comes online it easily has 30 or more spells per day. So it doesn't really benefit from a ring of wizardry.

While not completely necessary, it is still very useful especially when your stick comes online. All the other spells in higher level slots can be used for defensive buffs and utility. A scorching ray master with arcane thesis for instance, can pack on a ton of metamagic for free especially with +0 metamagic feats that grant an effective -1 to reduce the total metamagic adjustment. The spell ends up staying level 2. More level 2 slots not only give you more spells per day, but it means you can go longer in combat before activating pearls of power which take an action to restore a spell. It also gives you more metamagic combo's, for instance if you drop maximize for quicken and can keep the spell in the same slot, various energy admixtures, sanctum spell, etc. At say level 15 with 10 levels of incantitrix, you could certainly afford a number of level 2 pearls of power and a ring of wizardry level 2. Plus if you are the mailman and the DM is not presenting you with continuous one shot kill encounters (you know, the DM is doing their job and challenging the party), you better have some staying power.

As for what you could do with all those spell slots, I am currently playing a rather standard Shadowcraft mage. Wizard 5/Incantritrix 10/Shadowcraft mage 5/Incantritrix 1 with arcane manipulation and a level 1 ring of Wizardry to have 60+ level 1 spell slots. Every two spells allows you to cast a Persistent Heightened Shadow Miracle due to the Residual Magic. 30 level 1 spells left over at the end of the day, no problem, put up 15 Persistent spells. Disjunction a worry, no because I took the Tenacious Magic feat (epic version, not the shadow weave one) for silent image. Every buff lasts days because ACF and Rainbow vale, and will only be knocked offline for 1d4 rounds by disjunction before coming back online.

Same rules apply pre-epic, but you just need more than 1d4 rounds to reapply buffs.

[Blackhawk748]

That's a very good build.

It's also a build aimed at ending combat as quickly as possible, and by the time it comes online it easily has 30 or more spells per day. So it doesn't really benefit from a ring of wizardry.

I mean I won't go out of my way to get it but if it falls into my lap Im gonna keep it, cuz thats 6 more slots. As written the ring benefits Sorcerers more than Wizards, but either Mailman is gonna enjoy the benefits from the ring. As has been said that level of staying power is very helpful and it saves your higher slots for other things.

[RNightstalker]

The good old Magic Missile for starters. You put on Arcane Thesis and begin stacking low cost Metamagic on it to smack your opponent with guranteed damage.

For 2nd level its Scorching Ray

Ah, I'm kinda already doing that working on a Force Missile Mage build.