3.5 optimisation but with weird house rules

[Trandir]

So i have to build a new PC.
I would like it to be a rogue whit the usual focus on OoC skills. The stats are 18, 14, 13, 12, 12, 10 rolled.
My master uses some intresting house rules. So most guides and the usual rogue optimisation do not work. But I got the UA ACF that trades the Sneak Attack for the Fighter's Bonus Feat class feature.

The house rules for the PC creation are as follows:
- Only core races from the PHB
- All spell lists include all books since level 1
- The monk is the only class banned
- From level 1 to 5: only classes from the PHB (but if justified he usually allow ACF);
only feats from PHB no exeption (and no retrain so the first feats have to be from the PHB);
- From level 6 every book is a viable source of classes and feats
- If you take a first level in any class, even prestige ones, you get all the first level bonus: max HD+ Con mod, 4 times skill points+int mod, the starting equip and gold
- You get around 600 gp per level as starting budget plus a magic item or enchantment worth no more than 2000 gp


Sidenotes:
-The PC can craft items and merchant have
random items only from the DMG but
the starting ones are "treasures" so you
can take them from any book
but afterwards the "offbook" items can
be foun only in dungeons or as quest
rewards;
-The rogue can do a single sneak attack per
round (this makes the rogue worthless in combat);
-All spells with casting time of a standard
action get promoted to full round action,
but you can use quicken spell to cast
two spell in a turn if the quickened one
was a standard action in the book;
-In this setting there is every single monster
ever printed legal in the 3.5

The plan would be to create a more squishy fighter, so probably a ranged one, with most of the rogue tools and the skill points to do thing OoC. Multiclass can provide some more HP to make up for the d6.


Edit: In the beginning the topic of this tread was to find wacky combinations with my master house rules. Since it got off topic i changed the thread to follow the trend.
Ok the master added even more restrictions so I am going to open a new thread to ask for things that a degenerate would do. If I can't have what the base rules offer i might as well enjoiy what this house rules can offer.

[StevenC21]

There's no real reason for a martial to not just go full bore into multiclassing for the bonus skills & max HP, for one.

[Celestia]

- If you take a first level in any class you get all the first level bonus: max HD+ Con mod, 4 times skill points+int mod, the starting equip and
gold and the +3 cap to skill ranks
Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 1/Monk 1/Bard 1/etc.

[liquidformat]

Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 1/Monk 1/Bard 1/etc. +
There's no real reason for a martial to not just go full bore into multiclassing for the bonus skills & max HP, for one.
This would be an issue with that:


- Multiclassing is allowed but with some sort of logic behind

What level are you starting at?

[Trandir]

What level are you starting at?
Me? 11
But the idea of this thread was to see weird stuff. Not just multiclass everything for the skills.
I am planning to build a Fighter 4/ rogue 1/ barbarian 1/warblade 5 and the idea is that the PC was a soldier than did something horrible ( still to define) and got first ostracised then straight up exiled and after wandering across the lands found a monastery/fort of a knighty order that gave him purpose once more. But this is just to get really beefy and as such it isn't very intresting.

[MeimuHakurei]

Spells are a full-round action now? Wizard -> Force Missile Mage is what you want. Since Magic Missile is no longer a Standard Action, it is not subject to the volley rule, therefore you can apply extra effects on each shot rather than just the first (like Fell Drain).

[Trandir]

Spells are a full-round action now? Wizard -> Force Missile Mage is what you want. Since Magic Missile is no longer a Standard Action, it is not subject to the volley rule, therefore you can apply extra effects on each shot rather than just the first (like Fell Drain).
This is interesting can you be more specific in how does this works and why is it good?

[StevenC21]

+
This would be an issue with that


"I want to be the highest HP martial eva"

[pabelfly]

- You get around 600 gp per level as starting budget plus a magic item or enchantment worth no more than 2000 gp

This seems really stingy by WBL - Apparently you get to start with 8600 gold instead of 66,000 gold that you'd normally get. Is that correct? If it is, I'd consider a Vow of Poverty build. You forgo your gold except for buying basic weapon/s and you get a bunch of benefits and bonus Exalted feats depending on the level you get the Vow of Poverty feat. Normally wouldn't recommend it but if you're getting such low gold to start with it could be worth it for the right build.

[ZamielVanWeber]

If the DM compensates for the lowered PC numbers the stinginess of the gold is not a big deal. With those rules consider druid 5 with the animal companion ACF, beastmaster 1, druid 14. You will have a truly powerful animal companion. Just be sure to peruse the full list of available companions (DM permitting) because you have a +8 to druid level with natural bond.

[SirNibbles]

This is interesting can you be more specific in how does this works and why is it good?

It doesn't work because only weaponlike spells (spells which require an attack roll) can crit/deal precision damage.

The idea he was going for was this:

"A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group." - Rules Compendium, page 42

By making casting a full round action, those multiple attacks are all eligible for precision damage. However, there are some who argue that spells of any kind cannot be used in this manner because of something written in the section on weaponlike spells:

"Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster receives a bonus on damage rolls or some form of extra damage (such as precision damage) with such spells, the extra damage applies only on the first attack, whether that attack hits or not." - Rules Compendium, page 136

I personally think the intent was to allow spells cast as a full round action to get precision damage on all the hits, even though is contrary to the RAW. Discuss it with your DM.


EDIT: I am dumb and for some reason confused this thread with another tab I had open: a build for a game where sneak attack damage was allowed to crit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?594124-Need-help-making-a-3-5-character-where-sneak-attack-damage-can-crit). Since he's not trying to sneak attack with Force Missile, it works. Then again, you could argue it works even without the houserule, since it's not extra damage, but the rules are very unclear as to how Fell Drain actually works.

[RNightstalker]

Me? 11
But the idea of this thread was to see weird stuff. Not just multiclass everything for the skills.
I am planning to build a Fighter 4/ rogue 1/ barbarian 1/warblade 5 and the idea is that the PC was a soldier than did something horrible ( still to define) and got first ostracised then straight up exiled and after wandering across the lands found a monastery/fort of a knighty order that gave him purpose once more. But this is just to get really beefy and as such it isn't very intresting.

After reading the intro on the Warblade, which is made to seem the reckless type that leaps without looking, I see a progression of the classes from disciplined soldier, an event that makes him question himself and he starts to lose it (rogue & barbarian) into warblade, harnessing the rage.

The magic item rules seem pretty restrictive, especially if you're into custom items.

[Trandir]

This seems really stingy by WBL - Apparently you get to start with 8600 gold instead of 66,000 gold that you'd normally get. Is that correct? If it is, I'd consider a Vow of Poverty build. You forgo your gold except for buying basic weapon/s and you get a bunch of benefits and bonus Exalted feats depending on the level you get the Vow of Poverty feat. Normally wouldn't recommend it but if you're getting such low gold to start with it could be worth it for the right build.
Thanks for the advice but it might be me but nearly every single exalted feat suks Nymph's Kiss is the only one that seems generally good. Also whitout the monk what class can perform well with vow of poverty?




The magic item rules seem pretty restrictive, especially if you're into custom items.
We players can't exactly do that but the master created some (by my humble noob opinion) broken magic items for the other 3 party members: the sorcerer has a proestetic enchanted arm that works and cast maximased spell as with the feat at no cost, the "figher" a cleric who hides his religion got a mace with +10 enchantment plus speed, that on a crit creates a blast of fire and a lighning against the enemy (if i remember correctly each of them deal around 6d6). The master of many forms has the troll shales and sometimes he solo the fights so no weird op item for him.
And I joined the campaign recently so i didn't got any chance to get one

[Maat Mons]

To some extent, the purpose of magic items is to protect you from stuff. So if you're not going to get much by way of magic items, you might want to seek protection in other forms. Bone Knight and Pale Master spring to mind.

You're going to be in a party with a Cleric, a Druid, and a Sorcerer. I suppose Wizard would be the logical class for you to choose.

[pabelfly]

Ranger goes well with Vow of Poverty. Nemesis is a good feat, and greatly boosts the effectiveness of Favored Enemy, especially with the Arcane favored enemy ACF and if you get into the Stalker of Kharash PrC.

Piggy Knowles posted a build a few weeks back that made good use of Favored Enemy, Holy Boulders or something like that, might be a few more ideas for you there

[Celestia]

+
This would be an issue with that:


What level are you starting at?
Just roleplay as a free spirit who doesn't want to be tied down to anything and is always willing to try anything once. That way, literally any explanation becomes valid.

"Why is your character multiclassing to barbarian?"
"It seems like it could be fun."
"Why also ranger?"
"Nature is cool."
"And bard?"
"Chicks dig bards, right?"

[Trandir]

To some extent, the purpose of magic items is to protect you from stuff. So if you're not going to get much by way of magic items, you might want to seek protection in other forms. Bone Knight and Pale Master spring to mind.

You're going to be in a party with a Cleric, a Druid, and a Sorcerer. I suppose Wizard would be the logical class for you to choose.
Well those two classes are intresting. It might be fun in a setting where there are nearly only undead. The pale master sacrifice 5 spellcaster levels for garbage. The pale knight sacrifice basically nothing (if you are a paladin) and gets little in return but again this is not an undead heavy campaign.
The master of many forms is actually just a master of many form. He took the ranger variant that gains wild shape so he can do just that.

[Maat Mons]

The current version of Pale Master is in Libris Mortis. You now lose only 1 level of spellcasting. And you gain immunity to:

Disease
Nonlethal damage
Stunning
Poison
Sleep effects
Paralysis
Death effects
Critical hits
Ability drain
Energy drain
Damage to physical ability scores

I would typically enter Bone Knight with Cleric. And while the loss of a level of Cleric casting is pretty significant, you gain immunity to:

Stunning
Nonlethal damage
Poison
Sleep effects
Paralysis
Disease
Death effect
Fatigue/exhaustion
Damage to physical ability scores
Ability drain
Energy drain
Death from massive damage
Critical hits

While it is true that both classes have an undead theme, many of the things they grant immunity to frequently come up even without undead around.

[Trandir]

I would typically enter Bone Knight with Cleric. And while the loss of a level of Cleric casting is pretty significant, you gain immunity to:

Stunning
Nonlethal damage
Poison
Sleep effects
Paralysis
Disease
Death effect
Fatigue/exhaustion
Damage to physical ability scores
Ability drain
Energy drain
Death from massive damage
Critical hits

While it is true that both classes have an undead theme, many of the things they grant immunity to frequently come up even without undead around.

Ok those are a lot of status immunity. The defense it provides seems well worth using most edgy class I've seen so far.

[Elkad]

Rationalizing mad class dipping is easy.

"I want to learn every fighting style in the world" (or form of magic, or whatever)

It even kind of makes sense. You pick up the basics of something very fast, compared to the time spent mastering it.

Take Able Learner and name yourself Jack while you are at it.

Your character might do other odd things too. Downtime in a village? Spend the afternoon learning to make bricks, or midwifing, or brewing beer, or anything else you've never tried before.

[Quertus]

Also whitout the monk what class can perform well with vow of poverty?

Wizard (especially with Eschew/Ignore Materials)

(Also Druid.)

EDIT: also, why is Monk banned?

[Trandir]

Wizard (especially with Eschew/Ignore Materials)

(Also Druid.)

EDIT: also, why is Monk banned?
The master doesn't like the idea of an almos naked dude that can punch trough armor and he imself has defences similar to a fully armored warrior.

[Celestia]

The master doesn't like the idea of an almos naked dude that can punch trough armor and he imself has defences similar to a fully armored warrior.
I mean, wizards can do far more while also being nearly naked.

[Trandir]

I mean, wizards can do far more while also being nearly naked.
I know it's weird. That said the DM decides the rules not me

[Sactheminions]

If you are getting that much benefit from dipping around anyway, go Fochluchan Lyrist. It justifies anything up to 5 different classes before level ten just to get the prerequisites, gives dual casting AND full BAB, and advances Bardic music. The downside is you have to dip like crazy just to qualify, which kind of screws your character for spells. But you'll get more than enough other benefits, and the extra skill points will make it easier, too.

Google "the sublime ur-lyrist" for the full effect, but any means of getting into FL will do the trick.