Wall of force and huge size creatures

[Lance Tankmen]

does it work? i tried to google but didnt seem to find an answer outside of no on gargantuan creatures. Does it work on say an Adult dragon? or a giant?

[NNescio]

does it work? i tried to google but didnt seem to find an answer outside of no on gargantuan creatures. Does it work on say an Adult dragon? or a giant?

The hemisphere or sphere option has a radius of 10 ft, so it covers a volume of space smaller than a 20 ft cube. Ergo Garguantuan creatures (which occupy spaces of a 20 ft cube or bigger) cannot fit within that volume, and are thus pushed to one side by the wall.

Huge creatures occupy the space of a 15 ft cube. By a strict reading of RAW, they cannot fit within a 10 ft radius sphere either; you need a radius slightly bigger than 10.6 ft to fully enclose a 15 ft cube.

This becomes worse if you're using a square battle grid, as you can only target points where the grid intersect, and not within squares or cubes. In this case you will need a radius slightly bigger than 14.14 ft to fully enclose a 15 ft cube.

(If you draw out the areas enclosed by a 10 ft radius on a 2D grid map and ignore the vertial component, you will note that a 10 ft radius covers a 20 ft square with the corners removed. There is no space to fit a contiguous space of 3 x 3 squares. This becomes worse if you consider 3D, as there are even more missing "cubes" on the layers above and below.)

[lperkins2]

The hemisphere or sphere option has a radius of 10 ft, so it covers a volume of space smaller than a 20 ft cube. Ergo Garguantuan creatures (which occupy spaces of a 20 ft cube or bigger) cannot fit within that volume, and are thus pushed to one side by the wall.

Huge creatures occupy the space of a 15 ft cube. By a strict reading of RAW, they cannot fit within a 10 ft radius sphere either; you need a radius slightly bigger than 10.6 ft to fully enclose a 15 ft cube.

Do note that space/reach and size are not quite the same thing. People aren't 5' cubes, and dragons aren't 20ft cubes. This means how it's handled will be DM and circumstance dependent. If the dragon knows what you're doing, and streches out, it'd pretty easily be able to make itself not fit. On the other hand, if the dragon wants to be stuck inside it, it could easily curl into a ball small enough to fit. Consider the case of a PC wanting to hide in a 3ft diameter basket. If you say a creature can't fit in anything smaller than its space/reach, they can't do it. At the same time, if they are not rendered helpless, forcing them into the same basket would be difficult.

[NNescio]

Do note that space/reach and size are not quite the same thing. People aren't 5' cubes, and dragons aren't 20ft cubes. This means how it's handled will be DM and circumstance dependent. If the dragon knows what you're doing, and streches out, it'd pretty easily be able to make itself not fit. On the other hand, if the dragon wants to be stuck inside it, it could easily curl into a ball small enough to fit. Consider the case of a PC wanting to hide in a 3ft diameter basket. If you say a creature can't fit in anything smaller than its space/reach, they can't do it. At the same time, if they are not rendered helpless, forcing them into the same basket would be difficult.

This is irrelevant because Wall of Force explicitly refers to a creature's space, not its actual physical dimensions:


If the wall cuts through a creature's space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side).
(Underlined mine)

The space occupied by a given creature is defined unambiguously in the PHB:


Space
A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet wide, for example, but it does control a space that wide. If a Medium hobgoblin stands in a 5-foot-wide doorway, other creatures can’t get through unless the hobgoblin lets them.
(Underlined mine)

A Huge creature occupies a 15ft x 15ft space:


Creature
Each creature takes up a different amount of space.The Size Categories table shows how much space a creature of a particular size controls in combat. Objects sometimes use the same size categories.

Size Categories
Size | Space
(...)
Huge | 15 by 15 ft.
(...)


There is one exception though, if a creature is squeezing through a smaller space. RAW is technically ambiguous here, but one may intuitively interpret that it is occupying a smaller space while squeezing. But the dragon doesn't get to choose to squeeze while out-of-turn. Or even when it is moving on its turn, if there's no smaller space around to squeeze into.

That said, I suppose that most DMs would allow a little leeway instead of sticking to strict RAW, and I would personally allow Huge creatures to be entrapped if they fail an ad-hoc DEX save (using the caster's spell save DC), and possibly even (20ft ^2/^3) Gargantuan creatures (not bigger Garguantuan ones though), but with an advantage on that save. This is entirely case-by-case and subject to DM's largesse, however.

[lperkins2]

This is entirely irrelevant because Wall of Force explicitly refers to a creature's space, not its actual physical dimensions:


(Underlined mine)

The space occupied by a given creature is defined unambiguously in the PHB:


(Underlined mine)

A Huge creature occupies a 15ft x 15ft space:



There is one exception though, if a creature is squeezing through a smaller space. RAW is technically ambiguous here, but one may intuitively interpret that it is occupying a smaller space while squeezing. But the dragon doesn't get to choose to squeeze while out-of-turn. Or even when it is moving on its turn, if there's no smaller space around to squeeze into.

That said, I suppose that most DMs would allow a little leeway instead of sticking to strict RAW, and I would personally allow Huge creatures to be entrapped if they fail an ad-hoc DEX save (using the caster's spell save DC), and possibly even (20ft ^2/^3) Gargantuan creatures (not bigger Garguantuan ones though), but with an advantage on that save. This is entirely case-by-case and subject to DM's largesse, however.

That's a fair point about the wording of the spell and RAW, but still leaves some room for the DM to rule. As an aside, I would submit that a creature could choose to squeeze even if there isn't a tight space requiring it, which might be required to let an ally move through what would otherwise be 'your space' without costing them additional movement. Certainly wouldn't work out of turn.

As for the DM ruling, it says a creature whose space is bisected by the wall is pushed to one side of the wall. If the wall is a sphere, and you bisect the space of a medium creature, I suspect it's fairly common to rule that 'one side' can mean the inside. This brings us back to the larger creatures, who do fit on the inside, but whose space exceeds the internal volume. Related questions would be what to do if there are more medium creatures along the perimiter (plus some inside) than there is volume for them.

It seems that letting the target choose if it passes a Dex save and the caster choose if the target fails would be a good way to solve it if the particular circumstances are iffy.

[Damon_Tor]

If the wall cuts through a creature's space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side).

But it isn't clear what happens if the creature doesn't fit on the side of the wall its pushed toward. If one side of the wall doesn't fit the creature but the other does, is the caster unable to choose the unfitting side? If not, what happens if neither side of the wall fits the creature?

By RAW, nothing prevents you from forcing a tarrasque into a refrigerator using this method. However, because that's obviously silly, the DM has to be willing to adjudicate what happens in these scenarios using what makes sense. In this case, it makes sense that most gargantuan creatures can be fit into a sphere with a 20ft diameter.

[Bobthewizard]

Obviously, this is DM dependent, but I'd rule the following way

Solid Forcecage (10' cube) = large or smaller
Wall of force (10' radius sphere) = huge or smaller
Forcecage with holes (20' cube) = gargantuan except Tarrasque

[DMThac0]

This becomes worse if you're using a square battle grid, as you can only target points where the grid intersect, and not within squares or cubes.

So, firstly, you are not limited to only being able to use intersections on a battle mat. You are limited by what the spell indicates you are limited by.


...springs into existence at a point you choose within range.

Point means any arbitrary location you choose. Battlemats are nothing more than a tool, the world the players are in doesn't have grid lines running across the ground, through the air, etc. You can target anywhere.

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Secondly, radius is only half of the sphere, diameter is the whole of the sphere. If the sphere is 10 feet in radius that means it encompasses a total of 20 feet from side to side.

A creature which occupies a space of 20 ft, or less, would then be able to be inside the sphere.

[Bobthewizard]

A creature which occupies a space of 20 ft, or less, would then be able to be inside the sphere.

So would you allow wall of force to enclose any gargantuan creature with no save, since gargantuan occupies a 20' square? Just for clarity of what you are saying. I think it's reasonable to rule either way on this, I just think most people would say no, and that a 20' cube doesn't fit inside a 20' sphere.

[DMThac0]

So would you allow wall of force to enclose any gargantuan creature with no save, since gargantuan occupies a 20' square? Just for clarity of what you are saying. I think it's reasonable to rule either way on this, I just think most people would say no, and that a 20' cube doesn't fit inside a 20' sphere.

I would say that it would be situational, some gargantuan creatures just couldn't fit in the sphere no matter what.

Using the idea of a Medium creature crawling into a Small basket, I would allow some creatures to be caught in it. A dragon's tail and neck being pushed back by the wall, since they're not rigid, as a narrative for the how. A Tarrasque, there's no chance, the rigid shell wouldn't have any give.

By strict adherence to RAW, it's possible*, by theater of the mind, it's situational.

*Gargantuan starts at 20x20, so it is reasonable to say that a majority of the Gargantuan creatures would simply be too big.

[NNescio]

So, firstly, you are not limited to only being able to use intersections on a battle mat. You are limited by what the spell indicates you are limited by.



Point means any arbitrary location you choose. Battlemats are nothing more than a tool, the world the players are in doesn't have grid lines running across the ground, through the air, etc. You can target anywhere.

You still have to follow targeting rules. See DMG pg. 251:


AREAS OF EFFECT
The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't. Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.

Technically the grid is optional, but RAW you have to play by grid rules if you are using a grid.

You can, however, dispense with grid lines entirely and use free targeting ala Warhammer with tape measures and rulers, but that also dispenses with most of the other rules in the DMG that assume a grid (including the half a square rule), so it becomes a free-for-all what-the-DM-says-goes (AKA Theater of the DM's Mind).

('though I suppose nothing says you have to use a 5' grid. One could conceivably use 1' grids or 2.5' ones. The latter would be useful if you're running a Pixie campaign or something.)



---
Secondly, radius is only half of the sphere, diameter is the whole of the sphere. If the sphere is 10 feet in radius that means it encompasses a total of 20 feet from side to side.

A creature which occupies a space of 20 ft, or less, would then be able to be inside the sphere.

10 ft. radius sphere means a diameter of 20 ft, yes. But a 20ft. diameter sphere encloses far less volume than a 20 ft. cube (approx 52% if you math it out), because Pythagoras hates you. This ain't 4E with its Firecubes, even if creatures can still give geometry the middle finger when they move diagonally.

[DMThac0]

You still have to follow targeting rules. See DMG pg. 251:

I stand corrected.

I now have a question, if you must target an intersection for a spell, how does one target on the Z axis for flying creatures if there is no grid? By that logic you cannot target flying creatures with spells. It's an inconsistency that has to be adapted to by allowing a person to cast both arbitrarily and by the letter of RAW simultaneously.



10 ft. radius sphere means a diameter of 20 ft, yes. But a 20ft. diameter sphere encloses less volume than a 20 ft. cube, because Pythagoras hates you. This ain't 4E with its Firecubes, even if creatures can still give geometry the middle finger when they move diagonally.

Ok, so I have an issue with this. Space is indicated as the area a creature occupies as well as the effective area for a creature in combat. A Medium creature is assumed to both occupy and combat in a 5x5 area. If we go by the idea that you can only encompass the cube that the creature is in then we have a problem when it comes to the height of certain playable races.

A Half-Orc starts at 4'10" then you roll 2d10 and add it to the base. Max roll would add 20" making the Half-Orc 6'6" tall. They are now taller than the cube they are supposedly occupying. A Bugbear starts at 6' and rolls 2d12, assuming averages the height would be 7'1", max would be 8' tall. As well, many of the races, if you roll low, would not be 5' tall, but they're considered Medium.

If we go by the idea that a spell that has a circular/spherical AoE must cover 1/2 of a square before it affects that square we can write off the Half-Orc. However, A couple high rolls puts the Bugbear at a point where it covers more than half the next square, wouldn't it then effectively control that square?

A purple worm is 10ft in diameter but is considered Gargantuan because of it's length, it's volume isn't enough to fill a 20x20 cube.

---
The whole point I'm trying to get at is that it is necessary to relax on the whole RAW argument, there are way too many cases where it just doesn't make sense. Look at how the situation is presented, figure out if it's plausible, if yes, then narrate it in favor of the players, if no, then it doesn't work.