OOTS #1173 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Forikroder]

hope they brought alot of snacks for the godsmoot

[Ornithologist]

You tell him Sigdi! That's how its done!

[D.One]

hope they brought alot of snacks for the godsmoot

LOL

Nice one, Giant! We can always count on you to give the events such delightful turn. :smallsmile:

[Kantaki]

And this is how you use the rules to win.:smallcool:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I like how nonplussed the possessed cleric is, and how "plusplussed" the cleric becomes the moment the possession is over.

ETA: also, a moment of silence for so many speculations that how now been laid to rest.

No "flooding the place with sunlight"
No "the rest of the order can go in via the hole"
No "the hammer will hit Durkon and break him"

You were short lived, random speculations, but we enjoyed you nonetheless.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Not exactly what I expected, but "obscure rule the Ex-Exarch overlooked" does make sense-- as Sigdi says, nobody is going to be more prepared for a battle of the rules than Durkon. (I guess collapsing the ceiling to let the sunlight in probably would have killed too many people.)

The hammer appears to have landed next to Durkon, for those speculating on how that might work from #1172.

Now, uh, does Durkon get free while the meeting is suspended?

[D.One]

I like how nonplussed the possessed cleric is, and how "plusplussed" the cleric becomes the moment the possession is over.

Grey Wolf

I liked the "unzot" detail.

[Going Hereward]

Ah, that last panel.

The arc could end there and I'd be happy.

[AJ the Ronin]

I have never read something so anti-climatic that is so awesome at the same time since Sandman's "showdown" with Lucifer in Season's of Mist. :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

The one time I manage to correctly guess what happens and it turns out to be a side effect of the real plot development. At least my streak of not knowing what's going to happen continues largely unabated.:smallbiggrin:


I like how nonplussed the possessed cleric is, and how "plusplussed" the cleric becomes the moment the possession is over.

Grey Wolf

It's an additive characteristic.

[Psyren]

Uh, I'm actually worried. If the meeting is suspended, do the protections still apply? Yes they saved the day, but Sigdi is face to face with an angry vampire and surrounded by noncombatants.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Uh, I'm actually worried. If the meeting is suspended, do the protections still apply? Yes they saved the day, but Sigdi is face to face with an angry vampire and surrounded by noncombatants.

Well, Durkon is still statuefied in the background, so I'm guessing that the protections will lift the moment he's de-stoned.
Not sure why I'm feeling the need to make up all the words today
Grey Wolf

[Forikroder]

Uh, I'm actually worried. If the meeting is suspended, do the protections still apply? Yes they saved the day, but Sigdi is face to face with an angry vampire and surrounded by noncombatants.

if the meeting is over then Durkon is flesh again, so either shes protected by the rules or him

[Kantaki]

Uh, I'm actually worried. If the meeting is suspended, do the protections still apply? Yes they saved the day, but Sigdi is face to face with an angry vampire and surrounded by noncombatants.

So? Getting ripped apart by a irrate vampire whose plan you just foiled- whom you got at axe-point no less -certainly counts as a honourable death.

Besides, if the meeting's over Durkon isn't stoned anymore.

[D.One]

Uh, I'm actually worried. If the meeting is suspended, do the protections still apply? Yes they saved the day, but Sigdi is face to face with an angry vampire and surrounded by noncombatants.

If the protections are still on, he can't really attack her (or maybe he will, and get stoned). If they are off, Durkon is back. Anyway, it's risky for her (except that it's Sidgi we're talking about. He's the one in real danger :smallcool:)



But if we look at panel 10, the blue barrier is there, and in panel 18 (after the suspension), it seems to have vanished...

[TurboGhast]

Not exactly what I expected, but "obscure rule the Ex-Exarch overlooked" does make sense-- as Sigdi says, nobody is going to be more prepared for a battle of the rules than Durkon. (I guess collapsing the ceiling to let the sunlight in probably would have killed too many people.)

The hammer appears to have landed next to Durkon, for those speculating on how that might work from #1172.

Now, uh, does Durkon get free while the meeting is suspended?

V knows Stone to Flesh, and the Order knows enough about the meeting's defenses that they'd have reason to prepare it. However, V's outside the magic blocking barrier and still fighting the Death Wurm.

[Quebbster]

Nice twist. People guessed the Hammer would return but I don't think anyone called that particular effect.

[Giggling Ghast]

Ah, it’s always satisfying to watch these damn vampires {scrubbed} get out-maneuvered.

[thorr-kan]

Boo-yah.

Time for some smitin'.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I should say: I'm impressed so many of the councilmembers knew about section 1.3, paragraph 2. These guys might be more into this council business than I was giving them credit.

Grey Wolf

[CriticalFailure]

I love the obscure rule twist. I thought bringing down the ceiling to get light in might happen but it also seemed too close to how Roy buried Thog in the rubble during their fight.

[Ornithologist]

Its kinda neat that the Orange barrier showed up at the hole up top. Neat trick there.

[Lheticus]

(the following is paraphrased with the accent removed)
"Were you really so dumb to think for one second that you could beat Durkon--Durkon of all people, in a fight that revolved around following the rules?!

So, I'd really been getting frustrated with the last few comics how things were getting worse and worse...and every last drop of that frustration was TOTALLY worth it JUST FOR THAT LINE! :elan:

[Goremplotz]

"unzot" - what a nice detail

[Verappo]

I'm kind of surprised that the title of the book has nothing to do with obscure and lengthy political procedures at this point :smallbiggrin:. Great payoff for an arc so centred around upholding rules and duty.

Hope this doesn't mean that the cleric pals at the godsmoot have to stay locked in the temple until the table is replaced :smallbiggrin:. At least Create Food and Water is in the standard cleric spell list.

[Snails]

"fashioned from the corpse of a tree"

That is hilarious.

The resolution is...stupid. Yet I am laughing my ass off, and I think I love it.

[CriticalFailure]

Doesn't Elan have mending? I bet they defeat the vampires and then simply mend the table so the council can resume.

[HalfTangible]

.... Eh

Splitting the table kinda comes out of nowhere.

[GreatWyrmGold]

"The corpse of a tree." Gods, I love the little details Rich puts into his comics.

[D.One]

On an unrelated detail, I remember it was questioned about the council not having drinks and snacks for during the debates and all. Well, if you read the last paragraph shown in section 1.3, it says: "Following the completion of duties, the Council shall ... (something something) ... snacks and other light refreshments, as well ... (something something) ... quantities of beer sufficient ... (something something) ... scones. big... (or scores, I don't know what a scone is)

[Doug Lampert]

You tell him Sigdi! That's how its done!

No one beats Durkon at following the rules.

[Ornithologist]

(or scores, I don't know what a scone is)

A scone is a type of pastry. I find them to be a bit dry myself.

[Kantaki]

I should say: I'm impressed so many of the councilmembers knew about section 1.3, paragraph 2. These guys might be more into this council business than I was giving them credit.

Grey Wolf

Or they memorized the rulebook to stave off boredom.
You know, trying to pass some time during their less... unusually interesting Council meetings.

It was either that or getting stoned, and after that time no one was left to call off the meeting they don't do that anymore.

[Forikroder]

(the following is paraphrased with the accent removed)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html

what accent?

[Giggling Ghast]

Doesn't Elan have mending? I bet they defeat the vampires and then simply mend the table so the council can resume.

Mending can only fix a break that is no more than one foot in dimension. I’m not sure how wide that table is, but it’s definitely more than one foot in diameter.

[D.One]

A scone is a type of pastry. I find them to be a bit dry myself.

Thanks. Learning something new. :smallsmile:

[GregTD]

Snicker.

Win!


A scone is a type of pastry. I find them to be a bit dry myself.

That's so they taste delightful once you've covered them with clotted cream (and jam, if that floats your boat).

:-)

[gatemansgc]

the giant sees all our predictions, and takes the 30th option instead.

also lol, corpse of a tree.

and the orange barrier fills any holes in the ceiling it seems.

[Wraithfighter]

On one hand: Yay, the vote's indefinitely delayed!

On the other: ...uh, wait. Does that mean that all the clerics and bodyguards are stuck in the Godsmoot until someone can make these guys a new table?

...hope they're comfy...

[Reboot]

Thing is, what does this solve? Are we assuming that the vampires have a literal one-vote (e.g., 8-7) majority and the reversal of that vote after the vamps are dust will save the planet (rather than, say 9-7 which would lead to a further tie)?


Mending can only fix a break that is no more than one foot in dimension. I’m not sure how wide that table is, but it’s definitely more than one foot in diameter.

Yeah, but Make whole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/makeWhole.htm) is a second-level cleric spell. Even the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes could probably cast it.

[GregTD]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html

what accent?

That seems like a bit of a continuity error, given the whole "I do 4 Sendings with her every week"

[magwaaf]

i'll probably get in trouble for this...

Burlew... that was ****ing gold! i have not laughed that good at a comic in awhile, thank you.

[Kalirren]

Okay that was better than I had anticipated!

Parliamentary rule ex machina!

[Deophaun]

A) Why didn't Durkon just break the table directly? Hanging around Elan too much?
B) Make whole.

[Snails]

A scone is a type of pastry. I find them to be a bit dry myself.

They are a lot less dry if one does not over-mix and uses cold butter, the small globs of cold butter holding in the moisture during the quick baking process.

A lot of scones are tragically dry, and they further dry out as they go stale.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A) Why didn't Durkon just break the table directly?

Plausibly, misdirection. Made the vampire think Durkon's plan was to kill the vampire with daylight, so they didn't do anything to stop the hammer. An attack directly on the table might have been blocked.

Grey Wolf

[gatemansgc]

If the protections are still on, he can't really attack her (or maybe he will, and get stoned). If they are off, Durkon is back. Anyway, it's risky for her (except that it's Sidgi we're talking about. He's the one in real danger :smallcool:)



But if we look at panel 10, the blue barrier is there, and in panel 18 (after the suspension), it seems to have vanished...

even with the blue barrier not there, durkon is still stone in front of it so it could be a minor oversight. we'll see next comic.

[Lexible]

"UNZOT."

Tee hee.

[Peelee]

That seems like a bit of a continuity error, given the whole "I do 4 Sendings with her every week"

If a Sending is like a phone call, then I can see a formal letter for the high priest. One does not simply dial up the Space Pope, after all.

[Resileaf]

C'mon guys, it's not an obscure rule, it's literally the third rule in the book. :smalltongue:

[gatemansgc]

"UNZOT."

Tee hee.

i can't decide whether "unzot" or "corpse of a tree" is funnier.

[Kantaki]

A) Why didn't Durkon just break the table directly? Hanging around Elan too much?
B) Make whole.


Plausibly, misdirection. Made the vampire think Durkon's plan was to kill the vampire with daylight, so they didn't do anything to stop the hammer. An attack directly on the table might have been blocked.

Grey Wolf

Also, Durkon knows how to hit rock just right to break perfectly.
Wood is a entirely different matter.
Especially if all you have is a hammer.

[CriticalFailure]

Ah, make whole makes more sense then.

[Peelee]

C'mon guys, it's not an obscure rule, it's literally the third rule in the book. :smalltongue:

Depends on how many subsections Sections 1.0, 1.1, and 1.2 have.:smallamused:

[Kelenius]

Durkon remains stoned until the meeting is concluded, which will be a very long time
The vampire is going to attack and kill Sigdi
Sigdi will not be raised


are my predictions.

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

Makes me wonder if he ever discussed knowledge architecture with Roy.

Also, can't wait to see what they do with the vampires now.

[Snails]

Hmmm... Make Whole...



Target: One object of up to 10 cu. ft./ level


That table could easily be too big for any dwarf cleric available, except Durkon and Hilgya.

[D.One]

A) Why didn't Durkon just break the table directly? Hanging around Elan too much?
B) Make whole.


Plausibly, misdirection. Made the vampire think Durkon's plan was to kill the vampire with daylight, so they didn't do anything to stop the hammer. An attack directly on the table might have been blocked.

Grey Wolf


Also, Durkon knows how to hit rock just right to break perfectly.
Wood is a entirely different matter.
Especially if all you have is a hammer.

Also also, time. To get to the table and strike, Durkon might need to spend another round, in which the final vote might have been cast.

[Reboot]

Ah, make whole makes more sense then.

OTOH, the rule explicitly states "unbroken". Something which has been broken, even if subsequently fixed, could possibly still not count as "unbroken" if you define it as "never broken" rather than "not currently broken" ;)


Durkon remains stoned until the meeting is concluded, which will be a very long time
[...]
are my predictions.

Unlikely. That sub-boss Xyklon guy probably needs to be dealt with more quickly than that.

[Snails]

OTOH, the rule explicitly states "unbroken". Something which has been broken, even if subsequently fixed, could possibly still not count as "unbroken" if you define it as "never broken" rather than "not currently broken" ;)

You. Are. Good.

[Windscion]

Lawful Stupid subverted for the win.
:satisfaction:

[woweedd]

Lawful Good represent! Despite being Neutral Good, hopefully, myself, I have deep respect for you guys, and this is why.

[D.One]

The vampire is going to attack and kill Sigdi
Sigdi will not be raised


are my predictions.

Infidel! How can you doubt Sidgi's Might!?

She will bite the vampire and de-vampirize him!

[Anarion]

The facial expressions in that last panel are just perfect! :smallbiggrin:

[h0m3st4r]

Okay. I did NOT see that coming. Well played, Rich.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Lawful Good represent! Despite being Neutral Good, hopefully, myself, I have deep respect for you guys, and this is why.

I don't think Good had anything to do with it. I think this is all on the Lawful side, and thus this is a victory for Lawful Neutral types.

Grey Wolf

[HalfTangible]

Thing is, what does this solve? Are we assuming that the vampires have a literal one-vote (e.g., 8-7) majority and the reversal of that vote after the vamps are dust will save the planet (rather than, say 9-7 which would lead to a further tie)?



Yeah, but Make whole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/makeWhole.htm) is a second-level cleric spell. Even the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes could probably cast it.

Two things here.

-If the vote is 8-7, then switching one vote over will lead to a 7-8 vote. I count 16 clan heads, with 7 casting 'yes' vote; I assume two others voted and just weren't shown in the comic. If it's 9-7, then it becomes a tie, and I assume in the case of a tie Dvalin gets to cast his vote how he pleases.
-You're assuming that the clans cannot change their vote once cast. And even if they couldn't normally, I imagine they can when it's clear there was vampiric influence on the council's vote. And it's unlikely that the vampire will be able to act with impunity on this second vote. All they need to do to get rid of the domination is walk out through the orange barrier and then back in.

[Lexible]

Durkon remains stoned until the meeting is concluded, which will be a very long time
The vampire is going to attack and kill Sigdi
Sigdi will not be raised


are my predictions.


Durkon will be restored in short order
The vampire is going to attack Sigdi, just as she intending by goading him, and will end up stone
Toasts will be raised to Sigdi and Durkon by their family and friends.

[Snails]

Dwarves are nominally 4 feet tall.

The table looks like it is roughly two dwarf height in radius (~8 ft)
The table thickness is roughly 1/6th of a dwarf height (~2/3 ft.)

pi * (8^2) * 2/3 = ~134 cubic feet

So Durkon is probably high enough level, but anyone who cannot cast a 7th level spells is not good enough to Make Whole this thing.

[Thecommander236]

So the godsmoot is rendered moot? Can't someone just cast a spell to fix the table?

[SlashDash]

Honestly, I didn't like the nick of time things. Sure, the expected return hammer was given.

But honestly, why would the dominated council members just blurt out "YES" all at once.
Yeah, I get it's for the dramatic effect. But still...

Either way, I'm assuming a quick combat to finish off the vampires and then a re-vote?

We're at the end of the book obviously, so either there's going to be a time jump or the council members will just change the rules or something (or maybe they have a spare table)



Still betting on one of the vampires surviving and being sent by Hel to Xykon to speed things up and scare the other gods.


Also, Durkon knows how to hit rock just right to break perfectly.
Wood is a entirely different matter.
Especially if all you have is a hammer.
If anything, I'm expecting Durkon to know how to hit trees...

However, I just assumed that since the table is surrounded by council members, Durkon didn't want to accidentally hit any of them.




Durkon remains stoned until the meeting is concluded, which will be a very long time
The vampire is going to attack and kill Sigdi
Sigdi will not be raised

are my predictions.
Durkon remains stoned until the meeting is over.

So if he is stone, the Exarch can't attack Sigdi (and vice versa)

[chy03001]

Wait...

Was there a previous strip where that rules page was visible?

If so I would love to take a look to confirm the plot crumbs were there.

Thanks,
Cheng

[HalfTangible]

So the godsmoot is rendered moot? Can't someone just cast a spell to fix the table?

The godsmoot is still adjourned until this vote is done.

They stopped the vote at the last possible second, delaying it long enough to get the vampires out of the room.

[gatemansgc]

Okay. I did NOT see that coming. Well played, Rich.

did anyone? who would have expected a ROCK BREAKING A TABLE to stop the meeting? LOL

[Snails]

But honestly, why would the dominated council members just blurt out "YES" all at once.
Yeah, I get it's for the dramatic effect. But still...

Because the head of the council could honestly say he was confused about the count, and close votes are done one by one as per precedent from 11 centuries ago.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

why would the dominated council members just blurt out "YES" all at once.
Yeah, I get it's for the dramatic effect. But still...

Because a cacophony of "yes" and "no" doesn't make for easy counting of how many said which.

So I'm guessing the rules call for only one vote performed per round, to ensure they are all accounted for. What'd be the rush?

Grey Wolf

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

-If the vote is 8-7, then switching one vote over will lead to a 7-8 vote. I count 16 clan heads, with 7 casting 'yes' vote; I assume two others voted and just weren't shown in the comic. If it's 9-7, then it becomes a tie, and I assume in the case of a tie Dvalin gets to cast his vote how he pleases.

It's 15, assuming Dvalin's cleric does not vote.

Couting only what we've seen on panel, the vote before the table broke was at 6-2. So yes, someone must have voted and it was not shown, because Ironthumb couldn't be the last by this count.

[Zumbs]

You tell him Sigdi! That's how its done!

Am I the only one hearing the echo of a Wisdom save? Or seeing the expression of a failed one? So the vampire will attack Sigdi and turn to stone?


So the godsmoot is rendered moot? Can't someone just cast a spell to fix the table?

I'm not sure if "fixed by spell" qualifies as unbroken?

[HalfTangible]

It's 15, assuming Dvalin's cleric does not vote.

Couting only what we've seen on panel, the vote before the table broke was at 6-2. So yes, someone must have voted and it was not shown, because Ironthumb couldn't be the last by this count.

I didn't count Dvalin's cleric. I just counted the same person twice; once as a voice-over and once as a person on-screen.

MB.

[Snails]

The godsmoot is still adjourned until this vote is done.

I would assume that Dvalin could now honestly report that he cannot enter a vote within a reasonable amount of time frame, as repairing the table could take many months, so he abstains. Thus the godsmoot vote is complete on the matter on hand with a tie, and the godsmoot can be adjourned, and everyone can go home.

Or race to the final Gate.

[Ornithologist]

I'm not sure if "fixed by spell" qualifies as unbroken?


I think that will entirely depend on whether or not the council wants to stall the vampires for longer or not. Though until this chunk of arc, I have been reasonably confident that legal tom-foolery would not be a big part of the climax of the book. Shows what I know.

[understatement]

Huh, that did come a little out of nowhere. The last panel is great, though.

Crack theory: does this table count as the "third ring" Durkon was going on about back in this strip? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html)

[Forikroder]

I would assume that Dvalin could now honestly report that he cannot enter a vote within a reasonable amount of time frame, as repairing the table could take many months, so he abstains. Thus the godsmoot vote is complete on the matter on hand with a tie, and the godsmoot can be adjourned, and everyone can go home.

Or race north.

it cant be a tie, dvalin needs to break the tie so the tie is broken to break the tie to decide if the world goes boom or not

he might decide that he made a good solid effort in polling the council and since they cant come to a conclusion decide how to vote on his own

[Psyren]

I should say: I'm impressed so many of the councilmembers knew about section 1.3, paragraph 2. These guys might be more into this council business than I was giving them credit.

Grey Wolf

I'm guessing you wouldn't even be chosen for a body like that without having a love of arcane rules and minutiae - along the lines of a senate or high court.



Yeah, but Make whole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/makeWhole.htm) is a second-level cleric spell. Even the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes could probably cast it.

1) As others have mentioned, by the strictest definition of "unbroken", fixing the table (by whatever means) would not qualify.

2) Even if it did, who would cast it? Hel was two clerics in attendance, neither of whom would have thought to prepare it, and all the other clerics nearby are against destroying the world.

[Forikroder]

I'm guessing you wouldn't even be chosen for a body like that without having a love of arcane rules and minutiae - along the lines of a senate or high court.



1) As others have mentioned, by the strictest definition of "unbroken", fixing the table (by whatever means) would not qualify.

2) Even if it did, who would cast it? Hel was two clerics in attendance, neither of whom would have thought to prepare it, and all the other clerics nearby are against destroying the world.

they dont need to fix it immediately, finish off the vampires fix the domination and get the vote over with so that the gods dont destroy the world and they have time to fix it properly

forcing the tie to remain perpetually raises the risk of either A) the high priests stuck in the godsmoot dieing of boring vetoing there gods vote or B) the gods getting tired of waiting and just ending the world

[Snails]

it cant be a tie, dvalin needs to break the tie so the tie is broken to break the tie to decide if the world goes boom or not

he might decide that he made a good solid effort in polling the council and since they cant come to a conclusion decide how to vote on his own

Usually a vote that ends in a tie is not a measure that has passed. So I still say the godsmoot can adjourn on a tie. It is a result.

But, you are correct that Dvalin has fulfilled the requirements of his oath, and the council cannot give him advice based on a properly tallied vote at this time. Presumably he would feel a greater degree of latitude to vote his conscience now.

[Quebbster]

It's also worth noting that the Council gets to decide the security measures for the chamber. I assume something that stops dwarf vampire domination will be added soon.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Hmmm... Make Whole...

Target: One object of up to 10 cu. ft./ level
That table could easily be too big for any dwarf cleric available, except Durkon and Hilgya.
Time to break out the Math!
We don't seem to have any panels where part of the table isn't out of frame; the best we have are ones like the third panel of 1168. In that panel, the dwarves are 90-100 pixels tall, while the table is 15-20 pixels thick (it isn't a perfect cylinder) and more than 330 pixels wide.
Hill dwarves average 4 feet tall; let's therefore say that 95 pixels correspond to four feet. This means that the table is between 0.632 and 0.842 feet thick and has a diameter somewhere around 14 feet. A perfect cylinder precisely eight inches thick, with a radius of seven feet, in a vacuum, would have a volume of (0.75*(π*7*7)) = 147π/4 = ~115.5 cubic feet. This would require a 12th-level cleric to make whole; they are hardly unheard of, but you'd only have a few per metropolis (according to the DMG rules).



If the protections are still on, he can't really attack her (or maybe he will, and get stoned).
It looks like most of the dominated dwarves were un-dominated, a detail which would be narratively unneeded if the vampire was just going to remove itself from play next comic. It also weakens a potential joke where the dominated dwarves snap out of it and wonder why a statue is attacking Sigdi, or something to that effect.



Doesn't Elan have mending? I bet they defeat the vampires and then simply mend the table so the council can resume.
It would be kinda funny if Elan cast mending a bit too early, but that would ruin the arc conclusion's pacing (and Elan is no longer tha man-child who sang "Bluff, bluff, bluff, bluff the stupid ogre!"), so it won't happen.



That seems like a bit of a continuity error, given the whole "I do 4 Sendings with her every week"
Sigdi isn't the high priest of Thor. Also, sending is only 25 words each way; I count 180 words in that letter, which would require about seven more sendings than a High Priests would be expected to listen to from a lowly wandering priest for anything short of an emergency.



Plausibly, misdirection. Made the vampire think Durkon's plan was to kill the vampire with daylight, so they didn't do anything to stop the hammer. An attack directly on the table might have been blocked.

Grey Wolf
By the people standing all around the table, if nothing else. And lobbing it in an arc gentle enough to hit the table before the ceiling probably wouldn't carry enough force, because putting that much kinetic energy into the hammer would lob it in an arc that hits the ceiling first. Physics!



Two things here.

-If the vote is 8-7, then switching one vote over will lead to a 7-8 vote. I count 16 clan heads, with 7 casting 'yes' vote; I assume two others voted and just weren't shown in the comic. If it's 9-7, then it becomes a tie, and I assume in the case of a tie Dvalin gets to cast his vote how he pleases.
-You're assuming that the clans cannot change their vote once cast. And even if they couldn't normally, I imagine they can when it's clear there was vampiric influence on the council's vote. And it's unlikely that the vampire will be able to act with impunity on this second vote. All they need to do to get rid of the domination is walk out through the orange barrier and then back in.
Unspoken assumption: That suspending the session doesn't end the vote and shove the subject being voted on down the line.



it cant be a tie, dvalin needs to break the tie so the tie is broken to break the tie to decide if the world goes boom or not
It could absolutely be a tie. Everyone has a big laugh about tiebreaker procedures and the Order goes to fight Xykon while the dwarven clan council gathers the hill dwarf representatives or whatever their tiebreaker is.
I don't expect that to happen, but it could.



.... Eh

Splitting the table kinda comes out of nowhere.
Don't get me wrong, that part did. But resolving the tension of an arc built on honor, honor codified as bureaucracy, and loopholes in general through some obscure bureaucratic loophole makes perfect sense.
I'm going to count this as one of those things I appreciate more now that I understand what my literature teacher was talking about.



Lawful Stupid subverted for the win.
:satisfaction:
More like Lawful Stupid was exploited more effectively by the good guys than the bad guys for once.



I should say: I'm impressed so many of the councilmembers knew about section 1.3, paragraph 2. These guys might be more into this council business than I was giving them credit.

Grey Wolf
I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason so many of them knew that section was because they were there for the debates that ensued last time they had to replace the table.



even with the blue barrier not there, durkon is still stone in front of it so it could be a minor oversight. we'll see next comic.
If Dark Souls 2 taught me anything, that doorway is basically just a wall until someone finds a fragrant branch of yore and...I'm not actually sure how those work, do you wave it under their nose like smelling salts?



If anything, I'm expecting Durkon to know how to hit trees...
He knows how to kill trees. But that doesn't mean he knows how to break things made out of tree corpses, any more than a soldier knows how to break a door made out of human body parts. (Though I imagine they'd be able to figure out "without touching it".)



That's so they taste delightful once you've covered them with clotted cream (and jam, if that floats your boat).
I'm sure clotted cream tastes better than it sounds, but eurgh does it sound disgusting.

[Peelee]

Usually a vote that ends in a tie is not a measure that has passed. So I still say the godsmoot can adjourn on a tie. It is a result.

If a tie was an acceptable result, I doubt the main gods would poll the demigods to begin with.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm guessing you wouldn't even be chosen for a body like that without having a love of arcane rules and minutiae - along the lines of a senate or high court.

But they aren't chosen. They just happen to be the guys in charge of the 15 richest/most powerful clans. A look at the kind of person that can end up in charge of powerful family ruling dynasties should tell you that it does NOT ensure the person will love arcane rules and minutiae. Heck, the dwarven council is doing well to not have a guy who poops purple.

Grey Wolf

[kivzirrum]

If a Sending is like a phone call, then I can see a formal letter for the high priest. One does not simply dial up the Space Pope, after all.

I think the continuity error is more in the part where Durkon says that he suspects his mother wonders what happened to him after his abrupt departure. Since if he talks with her all the time, he would presumably have explained it by now. I may be misunderstanding either the comic or their point, though!

[Dagny]

Does this mean Durkon is stuck as a statue until they get a new table, resume the suspended meeting, and formally adjourn it? Unless Stone to Flesh works on obscure conditional petrification magic like this, which I guess it might.

[woweedd]

I don't think Good had anything to do with it. I think this is all on the Lawful side, and thus this is a victory for Lawful Neutral types.

Grey Wolf
Yeah, but they're the reason we're in this mess, and more to the point, screw them, all walking around, sounding like satirical British cartoon characters...

[Forikroder]

I think the continuity error is more in the part where Durkon says that he suspects his mother wonders what happened to him after his abrupt departure. Since if he talks with her all the time, he would presumably have explained it by now. I may be misunderstanding either the comic or their point, though!

would be hard to explain with only 25 words a week, he might have just used it purely for status reports without trying to explain everything

[King of Nowhere]

wouldn't it have been simpler to just shatter the table in the first place then?

[Psyren]

they dont need to fix it immediately, finish off the vampires fix the domination and get the vote over with so that the gods dont destroy the world and they have time to fix it properly

forcing the tie to remain perpetually raises the risk of either A) the high priests stuck in the godsmoot dieing of boring vetoing there gods vote or B) the gods getting tired of waiting and just ending the world

1) If Dvalin doesn't vote at all, it stays where it is now, a tie. Not sure what the moot's rules say then, since the rule was to bring in the lesser deities if there was a tie among the greater. But I'm guessing that neither a stalemate nor a re-vote would end in Hel's favor.

2) Hel's plan hinged on its speed - i.e. ending the world before the dwarves could realize they were doomed. Remove that surprise from the equation and now they have time to plan out honorable deaths for themselves - say, by storming the location of the final Gate (conveniently located near their homeland) en masse. If they win, the world is saved, if they lose, their souls are saved from Hel, meaning they still win. It might not be enough to save all of them, but probably would save enough of them that Hel wouldn't be able to wrest control of the worldbuilding from Odin.

[Thecommander236]

Thing is, what does this solve? Are we assuming that the vampires have a literal one-vote (e.g., 8-7) majority and the reversal of that vote after the vamps are dust will save the planet (rather than, say 9-7 which would lead to a further tie)?



Yeah, but Make whole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/makeWhole.htm) is a second-level cleric spell. Even the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes could probably cast it.

Do you really think vampires would've prepared that spell of all things the day before a battle? And the table WAS broken. The rules don't say anything about a repaired broken table being sufficient, just that the table could not have ever been broken.

[woweedd]

wouldn't it have been simpler to just shatter the table in the first place then?
Yes, but could he get close enough to do that without the Vamps stopping him? Misdirection, my friend.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

wouldn't it have been simpler to just shatter the table in the first place then?

Not if Durkon didn't think he could manage it in a single swing - and all he would get is a single swing. That's a big table, breaking it by dropping rocks is probably a more likely to succeed scenario than throwing a hammer at its side.

Grey Wolf

[kivzirrum]

would be hard to explain with only 25 words a week, he might have just used it purely for status reports without trying to explain everything

Fair enough, though it was 4 Sendings a week--not that 100 words is all that much for explaining things either, but after a few decades of being gone I'm sure at some point an explanation of why he was gone would have come up, no? :smalltongue:

I'm not much concerned with minor continuity errors or things like that, personally, I'm just saying, I think that's what GregTD was saying earlier.

[Psyren]

But they aren't chosen. They just happen to be the guys in charge of the 15 richest/most powerful clans. A look at the kind of person that can end up in charge of powerful family ruling dynasties should tell you that it does NOT ensure the person will love arcane rules and minutiae. Heck, the dwarven council is doing well to not have a guy who poops purple.

Grey Wolf

Point, but these are Dwarven clans we're talking about. The only creatures that tend more towards law in OotSland are probably Outsiders. So even if a devotion to law isn't a requirement, it probably correlates among the clan leaders far more often than not. I'm betting the irritable grandma who'd rather do anything but participate in the vote is an outlier, and the fact that her daughter is chiding her over it suggests as much.

[Forikroder]

1) If Dvalin doesn't vote at all, it stays where it is now, a tie. Not sure what the moot's rules say then, since the rule was to bring in the lesser deities if there was a tie among the greater. But I'm guessing that neither a stalemate nor a re-vote would end in Hel's favor.

2) Hel's plan hinged on its speed - i.e. ending the world before the dwarves could realize they were doomed. Remove that surprise from the equation and now they have time to plan out honorable deaths for themselves - say, by storming the location of the final Gate (conveniently located near their homeland) en masse. If they win, the world is saved, if they lose, their souls are saved from Hel, meaning they still win. It might not be enough to save all of them, but probably would save enough of them that Hel wouldn't be able to wrest control of the worldbuilding from Odin.

hels plan didnt hinge on speed though, Durkula was in a hurry purely because the godsmoot wouldnt wait for him

the entire dwarf race rice killing themselves with honour was an idea Roys dad brought up but is obviously a pretty gruesome solution to the problem, the best solution is one that doesnt end with the world being destroyed at all, neither by the gods or the snarl so ensuring the vote is a solid no is best for them

[Psyren]

hels plan didnt hinge on speed though, Durkula was in a hurry purely because the godsmoot wouldnt wait for him

the entire dwarf race rice killing themselves with honour was an idea Roys dad brought up but is obviously a pretty gruesome solution to the problem, the best solution is one that doesnt end with the world being destroyed at all, neither by the gods or the snarl so ensuring the vote is a solid no is best for them

I didn't suggest mass suicide though, I suggested an assault. Big difference.

[KorvinStarmast]

Does this mean Durkon is stuck as a statue until they get a new table, resume the suspended meeting, and formally adjourn it? Unless Stone to Flesh works on obscure conditional petrification magic like this, which I guess it might. I'll guess that the latter will work, but that's a guess.

Things I noted that I enjoyed, beyond Gontor being out-rules-lawyered.

In panel 2, one of the elders notices Gontor and says: "There's two of them?"

Support for Sigdi's point in the last panenl is a reach back to this:
Nuh uh. The rules say ye haf ta make a Raincloud 'fore ye can roll a Thunderclap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html)
It was bolded in the strip.


Reach back to this strip about seeing the sky for the first time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html)

[woweedd]

Not if Durkon didn't think he could manage it in a single swing - and all he would get is a single swing. That's a big table, breaking it by dropping rocks is probably a more likely to succeed scenario than throwing a hammer at its side.

Grey Wolf
This too, yes.

[Forikroder]

I didn't suggest mass suicide though, I suggested an assault. Big difference.

no its not, its just suicide with extra steps

[Ruck]

If a tie was an acceptable result, I doubt the main gods would poll the demigods to begin with.

More likely, as Snails suggested, we get something like Dvalin returning to the Godsmoot and saying "I consulted the Council of Clans, as per my oath, but they couldn't hold a vote. So I'm voting my own conscience, which is telling me 'no, do not condemn the Dwarves to Hel.'"

[Reboot]

1) As others have mentioned, by the strictest definition of "unbroken", fixing the table (by whatever means) would not qualify.

Actually, that was also me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24064950#post24064950) :p

[Cazero]

I was so close, predicting an obscure loophole of a sensible regulation. So close !

[WindStruck]

Wee, awesome comic! And to Rich or any editor:

Not to be a downer, but the correct grammar is "Mistress's". I know it might look weird, but that is how it is for a single mistress (I assume that being Hel). Unless there are more than one he is referring to?

edit: well in that case for multiple mistresses, it would be " Mistresses' ".

Oooor I guess keep it how it is for stylistic purposes.

[Kantaki]

More likely, as Snails suggested, we get something like Dvalin returning to the Godsmoot and saying "I consulted the Council of Clans, as per my oath, but they couldn't hold a vote. So I'm voting my own conscience, which is telling me 'no, do not condemn the Dwarves to Hel.'"

Nah. If the Council ties it gotta have a tiebreaker.
It's tiebreakers all the way down.:smalltongue:

[Ruck]

Nah. If the Council ties it gotta have a tiebreaker.
It's tiebreakers all the way down.:smalltongue:

The Council didn't tie, they suspended the vote.

[b_jonas]

Not if Durkon didn't think he could manage it in a single swing - and all he would get is a single swing. That's a big table, breaking it by dropping rocks is probably a more likely to succeed scenario than throwing a hammer at its side. Agreed. On the plus side, Sigdi bought a whole armed mob of dwarves, and they're coming towards the council room. If each of them takes just one swing at a vampire, then it's quite likely that all three or four vampires will die. I'm feeling good about my bet.

[Giggling Ghast]

Yeah, but Make whole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/makeWhole.htm) is a second-level cleric spell. Even the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes could probably cast it.

Who the heck prepares Make Whole?

[Resileaf]

In the first panel of the second page, curly-haired vampire has already misted to flee. She realized way before Gonthor what was happening.

[Hekko]

Fair enough, though it was 4 Sendings a week--not that 100 words is all that much for explaining things either, but after a few decades of being gone I'm sure at some point an explanation of why he was gone would have come up, no? :smalltongue:

I'm not much concerned with minor continuity errors or things like that, personally, I'm just saying, I think that's what GregTD was saying earlier.

I'd even expect Durkon to Send to her more when he first learnt to. The weekly conversation is a routine thing. The first time you can talk to your mother after not seeing her for a long period of time? He probably Sent as much as he could, so they had opportunity to cover the basics.

Another disharmony here is that Durkon writes that he would like to see his grandfather, who (per the High Priestess' answer that MitD ate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)) died "last year". Sigdi never mentioned that?

[Fyraltari]

So does that mean that Thor controls everything that falls from sufficiently high in the North, or just that hammer?

Also could somebody be kind enough o tell me what "pursuant" means?

Not exactly what I expected, but "obscure rule the Ex-Exarch overlooked" does make sense-- as Sigdi says, nobody is going to be more prepared for a battle of the rules than Durkon. (I guess collapsing the ceiling to let the sunlight in probably would have killed too many people.)

The hammer appears to have landed next to Durkon, for those speculating on how that might work from #1172.

Now, uh, does Durkon get free while the meeting is suspended?
The meeting is "temporarily suspended", not "formally adjourned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html)", so I guess not.

On an unrelated detail, I remember it was questioned about the council not having drinks and snacks for during the debates and all. Well, if you read the last paragraph shown in section 1.3, it says: "Following the completion of duties, the Council shall ... (something something) ... snacks and other light refreshments, as well ... (something something) ... quantities of beer sufficient ... (something something) ... scones. big... (or scores, I don't know what a scone is)
It is the thing and the whole of the thing. Scones and stones and dwarves, are we really suuuuuuuuuuuure the Giant doesn't read Pratchett? :smalltongue:

Thing is, what does this solve? Are we assuming that the vampires have a literal one-vote (e.g., 8-7) majority and the reversal of that vote after the vamps are dust will save the planet (rather than, say 9-7 which would lead to a further tie)?
We're not assuming, we know it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1158.html).

A) Why didn't Durkon just break the table directly? Hanging around Elan too much?
B) Make whole.
"We still gotta chance left" = We hoped this would kill the vampires, but not to worry, Plan B is on.

Wait...

Was there a previous strip where that rules page was visible?

If so I would love to take a look to confirm the plot crumbs were there.

Thanks,
Cheng
No (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html)pe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html).


[spoiler=Plotty stuff]It looks like most of the dominated dwarves were un-dominated, a detail which would be narratively unneeded if the vampire was just going to remove itself from play next comic. It also weakens a potential joke where the dominated dwarves snap out of it and wonder why a statue is attacking Sigdi, or something to that effect.
No, the dwarves are still very much Dominated, Dvalin's channelling alone stopped.
Also, the Dominated are still aware of their surroundings and remember it clearly as evidenced by "HE HAD TO ORDER YOU NOT TO DRINK IT ALL! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html)"

[Forikroder]

I'd even expect Durkon to Send to her more when he first learnt to. The weekly conversation is a routine thing. The first time you can talk to your mother after not seeing her for a long period of time? He probably Sent as much as he could, so they had opportunity to cover the basics.

Another disharmony here is that Durkon writes that he would like to see his grandfather, who (per the High Priestess' answer that MitD ate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)) died "last year". Sigdi never mentioned that?

if expect him to send less, less spell slots means using one to talk to his mother is a large chunk of resources, the higher level he gets the less valuable those low level spell slots even are so having more sendings taking them up becomes a non issue since he can always convert them into healing

sigdi knows he cant come back home so maybe didnt bother filling him in on the really heavy stuff

[Davian]

Heh, I sort of expected the vote to be invalidated on some kind of legal technicality, but I had absolutely no idea what it could possibly have been.

Now... Absolutely not a prediction, and no idea if it's been mentioned before, but... If the whole vote business were to be fully resolved, that would free up all of those clerics back at the Godsmoot to again act as they see fit, including taking action against the impending threat to the world's safety. Including rallying all their subordinates in their various churches. As it stands though, they're stuck.

Narratively speaking, the current stalemate could ensure that our heroes are really the only people in a position to stop Xycon, despite numerous other powerful individuals now being aware of the situation, which keeps the dramatic stakes high.

Similar to how the Azurites and Girard's family may have been aware of what's going on, but they're (mostly) out of the picture.

But that's only one of a million ways things can play out. I'm not in the business of predictions.

[JumboWheat01]

Gonna have to get the army up and running if they ever hope of slaying a tree that big for a new table.

[Jasdoif]

Gonna have to get the army up and running if they ever hope of slaying a tree that big for a new table.I think this is a job for Hew the Adamant and the Arbor Appropriators, actually.

[HandofShadows]

When someone uses the rules to abuse, use the rules right back and beat them at their own game. :smallcool::smallbiggrin::smallcool: A great idea Giant.

[Schroeswald]

Gonna have to get the army up and running if they ever hope of slaying a tree that big for a new table.

And of course the nearest tree of that size is up North in Monster Hollow with all the other most dangerous monsters (I hear that a Lich and an unimaginably powerful thing is there too!).

[WindStruck]

In the first panel of the second page, curly-haired vampire has already misted to flee. She realized way before Gonthor what was happening.

Hey, that is a good catch! It's hard to spot at first...

[Hekko]

if expect him to send less, less spell slots means using one to talk to his mother is a large chunk of resources, the higher level he gets the less valuable those low level spell slots even are so having more sendings taking them up becomes a non issue since he can always convert them into healing

He could have Sent to her once but every day; twice if circumstances allowed. She is very important to him.


sigdi knows he cant come back home so maybe didnt bother filling him in on the really heavy stuff

Perhaps, but I don't believe it.

[Fyraltari]

In the first panel of the second page, curly-haired vampire has already misted to flee. She realized way before Gonthor what was happening.


Hey, that is a good catch! It's hard to spot at first...

She's getting better at this, last time she ran (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html).

My money is on her surviving this book, and vampirism infestation becoming something of a long-term-but-not-apolyptic problem for the Dwarven Lands* thus fullfilling the prophecy to "bring death and destruction for us all".

*She may not be high level enough to cast Malack's vampirization accelerator

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also could somebody be kind enough o tell me what "pursuant" means?

"In accordance to" - i.e. "as per the rule"


It is the thing and the whole of the thing. Scones and stones and dwarves, are we really suuuuuuuuuuuure the Giant doesn't read Pratchett? :smalltongue:
You do realize that all British royalty is coronated upon the Stone of Scone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_Scone), right? I.e. Pratchett is making a reference, as he is wont to do?

Scones are very Scottish (I hear), which of course makes them quite dwarven, on the basis of the "dwarves are scottish" trope, which is in effect in OotS.

Grey Wolf

[Lheticus]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html

what accent?

RGAHFRGAHFLRGLPLZMGARGITYFLARGITYDAHAAA...

...Touché. XD

[Doug Lampert]

Fair enough, though it was 4 Sendings a week--not that 100 words is all that much for explaining things either, but after a few decades of being gone I'm sure at some point an explanation of why he was gone would have come up, no? :smalltongue:

I'm not much concerned with minor continuity errors or things like that, personally, I'm just saying, I think that's what GregTD was saying earlier.

It wasn't decades, at the time that the OotS started, Durkon was much lower level, 4 sendings at once is a high level cleric's action. Per class and level geekery, Durkon was level 8 at comic's start. Which was less than 2 years ago in comic, and much closer to back at Azure City. At that point sending was one of his highest level spells.

Assuming that he was leveling while adventuring with Roy, he'd almost certainly been able to cast sending for only a short time when the comic started.

[HalfTangible]

He could have Sent to her once but every day; twice if circumstances allowed. She is very important to him.



Perhaps, but I don't believe it.

Durkon said earlier that he prepared 4 Sending spells when Tarquin captured Roy because he's been using the spell to talk to Sigdi once a week. (I read 1152 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html) for unrelated reasons earlier today)

My thoughts on the matter were that he prepares Sendings on a day of the week where he's not expecting to fight too hard, and if he's wrong he can just convert the Sendings into healing spells.

As for his dead Grandpappy, it's possible that Sigdi didn't tell him, but it's also possible she did and the High Priestess of Thor just didn't know.. We never saw him be sad because his Grandpappy died of (double) liver failure; as he told Malack, dying of alcohol-based diseases/illnesses technically counts as an honorable death.

[Deophaun]

Also also, time. To get to the table and strike, Durkon might need to spend another round, in which the final vote might have been cast.
Well, we have another problem then. Durkon hit the roof with the hammer, breaking through to daylight above. They first had to take valuable time to fight through the front gate, past whatever guardians and counter measures were there, to get into the chamber where Durkon could attack the ceiling, turning to stone in the process.

They could have circumvented all of that by simply breaking the ceiling from the surface, and Durkon would still be his fleshy self.

But, that I will give to Durkon being a dwarf and not thinking about the surface. And he probably didn't tell the rest of his party what the final portion of his plan was for Roy to point out the alternate route.

1) As others have mentioned, by the strictest definition of "unbroken", fixing the table (by whatever means) would not qualify.
Except the rules don't say "unbroken by the strictest defintion." It says "unbroken." A table that is unbroken by any definition satisfies the requirement. Make whole is valid.

Edit: Also, take exception to the idea that this is the "strictest" definition. "Un" does not mean "never." It means "not." A door that is unlocked was not never locked before. A knot that comes undone was not never done. In fact, for it to have been undone, that implies that it was done at some point.

If anything, I'm expecting Durkon to know how to hit trees...

However, I just assumed that since the table is surrounded by council members, Durkon didn't want to accidentally hit any of them.
Hitting something with a hammer you hold in your hand might risk casualties, but dropping a giant boulder right in the center of a group of people is safer?

[Grey Watcher]

I like how nonplussed the possessed cleric is, and how "plusplussed" the cleric becomes the moment the possession is over.

ETA: also, a moment of silence for so many speculations that how now been laid to rest.

No "flooding the place with sunlight"
No "the rest of the order can go in via the hole"
No "the hammer will hit Durkon and break him"

You were short lived, random speculations, but we enjoyed you nonetheless.

Grey Wolf

In fairness, the Sudden Skylight Hypothesis has been around for a fair but at this point, even before we saw the Council Chamber on screen.

My two cents on the meaning of "unbroken": It might get a bit too deep into the silly back and forth even for this comic, but I can totally imagine this sequence of events:


Ex-Exarch repairs the table.
Before voting can resume, the representative of Clan Cobalt points (as many of us has) out that "unbroken" might mean "has never been broken" not just "is not currently broken"
The Council Leader calls for a vote on this interpretation of the rule, phrased along the lines of "Does 'unbroken' mean 'has never been broken' regardless of how undetectable the repairs?"
The dominated members start to mindlessly vote "Yes." By the time the vampires realize what's happening and try to give them new instructions, there are too many Yesses and Durkon's impromptu masonry-based legal hack stands.

[Giggling Ghast]

Just a note on the "why aren't the rules written on Durkon's accent debate: the Scottish accent is specific to Durkon's clan. (Notice that none of the other elders speak with it. Nor does Thor.)

Why would they write the rules for the Council of Clans (plural) in a region-specific dialect?


In fairness, the Sudden Skylight Hypothesis has been around for a fair but at this point, even before we saw the Council Chamber on screen.

My two cents on the meaning of "unbroken": It might get a bit too deep into the silly back and forth even for this comic, but I can totally imagine this sequence of events:


Ex-Exarch repairs the table.
Before voting can resume, the representative of Clan Cobalt points (as many of us has) out that "unbroken" might mean "has never been broken" not just "is not currently broken"
The Council Leader calls for a vote on this interpretation of the rule, phrased along the lines of "Does 'unbroken' mean 'has never been broken' regardless of how undetectable the repairs?"
The dominated members start to mindlessly vote "Yes." By the time the vampires realize what's happening and try to give them new instructions, there are too many Yesses and Durkon's impromptu masonry-based legal hack stands.


Also, I'm willing to bet they don't just leave the vampires to loiter around the council chambers.

[GregTD]

If a Sending is like a phone call, then I can see a formal letter for the high priest. One does not simply dial up the Space Pope, after all.

No, the issue is Durkon's letter claims his mother and grandfather have no idea what's happening to him. Which is false, if he's talking to her every week

[Fyraltari]

"In accordance to" - i.e. "as per the rule"
Thank you, I appreciate it.



You do realize that all British royalty is coronated upon the Stone of Scone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_Scone), right? I.e. Pratchett is making a reference, as he is wont to do?

Scones are very Scottish (I hear), which of course makes them quite dwarven, on the basis of the "dwarves are scottish" trope, which is in effect in OotS.

Grey Wolf
Yes I do realize that, but I won't allow reasonnableness to come between me and the fun I get of pointing to random trivial similarities between The Giant's and Sir Pterry's works. :smallwink:

[kivzirrum]

It wasn't decades, at the time that the OotS started, Durkon was much lower level, 4 sendings at once is a high level cleric's action. Per class and level geekery, Durkon was level 8 at comic's start. Which was less than 2 years ago in comic, and much closer to back at Azure City. At that point sending was one of his highest level spells.

Assuming that he was leveling while adventuring with Roy, he'd almost certainly been able to cast sending for only a short time when the comic started.

A fair point--though I'd say that makes it A) even more likely that Durkon would have brought it up to his mom, and B) Possible that he wasn't sending to her regular by the time of strip 305. So for those who care about inconsistencies, hey, there we go :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

Also could somebody be kind enough o tell me what "pursuant" means?

"Pursuant to" means "according to."

[Tuhlore]

I think it's time to have a big group hug under the sunlight... With the vampire

[Grey_Wolf_c]

She's getting better at this, last time she ran (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html).

My money is on her surviving this book, and vampirism infestation becoming something of a long-term-but-not-apolyptic problem for the Dwarven Lands* thus fullfilling the prophecy to "bring death and destruction for us all".

*She may not be high level enough to cast Malack's vampirization accelerator

If I were to make a prediction, I’d hazard a guess that she might be allowed to live and preach about Hel, as part of an arrangement where Hel allows dwarven souls to go to their proper place in exchange for getting a priest.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

If I were to make a prediction, I’d hazard a guess that she might be allowed to live and preach about Hel, as part of an arrangement where Hel allows dwarven souls to go to their proper place in exchange for getting a priest.

Grey Wolf

Problem being the dwarven soul thats stuck inside her might want something different.

[Fyraltari]

If I were to make a prediction, I’d hazard a guess that she might be allowed to live and preach about Hel, as part of an arrangement where Hel allows dwarven souls to go to their proper place in exchange for getting a priest.

Grey Wolf
Ooh, good one.

"Pursuant to" means "according to."

Thank you.

[Psyren]

no its not, its just suicide with extra steps

Still no. The big difference is the goal. They wouldn't be trying to die in that scenario - they would be trying to save the world, with the side-effect that dying also frees their souls from slavery (win-win.)

In any event, it's a moot point - this could only arise if the Godsmoot results in a completely hung jury that must somehow be resolved prior to the thing with Xykon that is forcing the question in the first place. Somehow I doubt that's what ends up happening.

[Cavenskull]

no its not, its just suicide with extra steps

You're so focused on suicide that you're overlooking the other potential outcome of such an assault. If the Dwarves succeed in the assault they'll have played a major role in saving the world. An honorable death just becomes the consolation prize for any dwarves who happen to die in the process.

Sometimes a goal is so important that it's worth risking even certain death to achieve it.

[Reboot]

If I were to make a prediction, I’d hazard a guess that she might be allowed to live and preach about Hel, as part of an arrangement where Hel allows dwarven souls to go to their proper place in exchange for getting a priest.

Grey Wolf

She still has at least four at the moment - the Exexarch, Curly, Nameless and the Frontarch (the last at the Godsmoot. One presumes that the tome of rules for that also forbids killing another High Priest the moment the moot ends)


In any event, it's a moot point - this could only arise if the Godsmoot results in a completely hung jury that must somehow be resolved prior to the thing with Xykon that is forcing the question in the first place. Somehow I doubt that's what ends up happening.
Well, Roy himself points out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html) that even if THIS vote sticks with "save the world", there's still every chance they have another vote if it looks like the Snarl's going to get free. Hel(l), Loki actually argues that as part of his defence of the world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) (saying they'll have enough time to zap it if things come to it, might as well give the worms one more shot).

[D.One]

Who the heck prepares Make Whole?

The guy who expects to break the huge table...


Well, we have another problem then. Durkon hit the roof with the hammer, breaking through to daylight above. They first had to take valuable time to fight through the front gate, past whatever guardians and counter measures were there, to get into the chamber where Durkon could attack the ceiling, turning to stone in the process.

They could have circumvented all of that by simply breaking the ceiling from the surface, and Durkon would still be his fleshy self.

But, that I will give to Durkon being a dwarf and not thinking about the surface. And he probably didn't tell the rest of his party what the final portion of his plan was for Roy to point out the alternate route.

Except that, even if he is able to locate the precise area outside which is directly over the Council Hall, how could be sure about where to hit in order for the debris to fall over the table and not over some Council member, unless he was inside the room?

[MReav]

I guess Durkon knows more about mortal laws than divine ones, otherwise he wouldn't have been so surprised at Durkula's use of Control Weather to beat Thor's storm.

[Psyren]

You're so focused on suicide that you're overlooking the other potential outcome of such an assault. If the Dwarves succeed in the assault they'll have played a major role in saving the world. An honorable death just becomes the consolation prize for any dwarves who happen to die in the process.

Sometimes a goal is so important that it's worth risking even certain death to achieve it.

That.



Except the rules don't say "unbroken by the strictest defintion." It says "unbroken." A table that is unbroken by any definition satisfies the requirement. Make whole is valid.

Edit: Also, take exception to the idea that this is the "strictest" definition. "Un" does not mean "never." It means "not." A door that is unlocked was not never locked before. A knot that comes undone was not never done. In fact, for it to have been undone, that implies that it was done at some point.

How about this then - the time it would take a group of dwarven bureaucrats like the ones before us to come to a consensus on what "unbroken" actually means in the statute, is probably close to if not even longer than the time it would take for them to just replace the table, and thus the point is moot. Work better for you?

[Yuki Akuma]

Not to be a downer, but the correct grammar is "Mistress's".

...And the correct word choice in your sentence would be "spelling", not "grammar". :smallwink:

[Reboot]

Except the rules don't say "unbroken by the strictest defintion." It says "unbroken." A table that is unbroken by any definition satisfies the requirement. Make whole is valid.

Edit: Also, take exception to the idea that this is the "strictest" definition. "Un" does not mean "never." It means "not." A door that is unlocked was not never locked before. A knot that comes undone was not never done. In fact, for it to have been undone, that implies that it was done at some point.

So, would you describe this door as unbroken: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html

[AutomatedTeller]

Huh. that is not the resolution I expected.

So, what happens when the table is fixed? Do the elders who were dominated and who will presumably no longer be dominated then get to revote?

Or, maybe, this just gives the Order enough time to deal with the last gate, cause it'll take 10 days to fix the table, at which time the vote goes through?

[Svata]

OTOH, the rule explicitly states "unbroken". Something which has been broken, even if subsequently fixed, could possibly still not count as "unbroken" if you define it as "never broken" rather than "not currently broken" ;)


Unbroken could also mean "un-broken" as in "something undid the breaking of it" They broke it. Now they un-break it and it will have been unbroken.

[Reboot]

Unbroken could also mean "un-broken" as in "something undid the breaking of it" They broke it. Now they un-break it and it will have been unbroken.

That would require the table to have been broken & mended before they ever held a meeting around it!

[Lord Torath]

On this side of the pond (i.e. in the USA) scones are made from bread dough deep fried in hot oil. Excellent when slathered in honey-butter. Or cinnamon-honey-butter.

Dang it, now I'm hungry!

[GregTD]

So the godsmoot is rendered moot? Can't someone just cast a spell to fix the table?

A GodsMoot that doesn't come to a decision is a GodsMoot that isn't destroying the world.

Works for the Order of the Stick

[JT]

Who the heck prepares Make Whole?

Somebody who used to dig a lot, but can’t spell.

[Elenna]

Sigdi: the literal best. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Kantaki]

Clearly the Council has to vote wether a mended table counts as „unbroken”.
For which they need a new table.
So, it doesn't matter I guess?

[KorvinStarmast]

No, the issue is Durkon's letter claims his mother and grandfather have no idea what's happening to him. Which is false, if he's talking to her every week ... after he reached 7th level. Sending in 3.5e is a 4th level spell. (though it is/was a third level spell in some other editions)

[Svata]

That would require the table to have been broken & mended before they ever held a meeting around it!

Nothing suggests it wasn't

[GregTD]

Except the rules don't say "unbroken by the strictest defintion." It says "unbroken."

Really? You know every word in the rules?

Could you write them out for us? Because I'm looking at them, and there's a whole bunch of words i can't see

[Lord Torath]

So, what happens when the table is fixed? Do the elders who were dominated and who will presumably no longer be dominated then get to revote? I suspect that only the members who have not yet voted get to cast their votes once the meeting is reconvened. That includes a fair number of the never-dominated members, and the one dominated member whose vote was interrupted. Presumably his vote changing from "ye-" to "No!" will give victory to the "Don't Destroy the World" side.

[GregTD]

It wasn't decades, at the time that the OotS started, Durkon was much lower level, 4 sendings at once is a high level cleric's action. Per class and level geekery, Durkon was level 8 at comic's start. Which was less than 2 years ago in comic, and much closer to back at Azure City. At that point sending was one of his highest level spells.

Assuming that he was leveling while adventuring with Roy, he'd almost certainly been able to cast sending for only a short time when the comic started.

While I’d never question yer worshipfulness’s judgment, I imagine that the manner in which I wiz asked to leave so suddenly might’ve caused them to wonder what happen’d ta me for all these years.”

If he was Level 8 at the start of the comic, then he had 2 fourth level spells + any wisdom bonus, for a while.

I have to believe that the first day he was resting up after making 7th level, he sent a Sending to his Ma, to let her know he was alive. And that they continued, until he had given her the whole story

[Kantaki]

Really? You know every word in the rules?

Could you write them out for us? Because I'm looking at them, and there's a whole bunch of words i can't see

As far as I can tell the interrupted section after the table gets specified as „unbroken” pertains its size, not the unbroken-ness.

Edit:


Votes shall take place a table fashioned from the corpse of [a oak] tree. The table shall be of one (1) piece, unbroken and bearing suffi[cent] circumference to permit one (1) representative of each currently ext[ant clan] to stand before it simultaneously. No vote shall be completed in any [halls that]fail to meet these requirements.

[Brackets] are my guesses for the missing sections.

[ATHATH]

Doesn't Elan have mending? I bet they defeat the vampires and then simply mend the table so the council can resume.
He can't cast it inside of the barrier without being zotted, no?

[Zhorn]

*unzot*

heh. Gotta love those little details to the sound effects :smallsmile:

[2.5 cats]

Sorry if someone commented on this upthread, but (unless it's an archaic spelling I'm unaware of), there appears to be a typo on page 2, panel 7, with all the rules text.

In the top paragraph, which we only partially see, it reads "possiblt" rather than "possible".

[Fyraltari]

While I’d never question yer worshipfulness’s judgment, I imagine that the manner in which I wiz asked to leave so suddenly might’ve caused them to wonder what happen’d ta me for all these years.”

If he was Level 8 at the start of the comic, then he had 2 fourth level spells + any wisdom bonus, for a while.

I have to believe that the first day he was resting up after making 7th level, he sent a Sending to his Ma, to let her know he was alive. And that they continued, until he had given her the whole story

:durkon: The five (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html) of us never left our cells.

While I doubt that was the intent at the time the letter was written, I can see Durkon carefully choosing his words to make Hurak believe he never had any contact with his family, lest Hurak throws them out too.

After all, it's true that they wondered what happened to him during all hese years he didn't have Sending. And he would like to see his grandfather again, alas he is dead.

[DavidSh]

He can't cast it inside of the barrier without being zotted, no?
Depends on whether the corpse of a dead tree counts as a creature.

[Ortho]

There's a typo in the first paragraph of the rules text: "At the earliest possiblt convenience."



Sorry or someone commented on this upthread, but (unless it's an archaic spelling I'm unaware of), there appears to be a typo on page 2, panel 7, with all the rules text.

In the top paragraph, which we only partially see, it reads "possiblt" rather than "possible".

Dangit, ninja'd.

[Schroeswald]

There's a typo in the first paragraph of the rules text: "At the earliest possiblt convenience."

No it isn't, possiblt is an obscure word that refers to the god of buildings, meaning that it is somehow about Posyblit the Egyptian god (who just so happens to be a short child, almost like a dwarf).

[Kashem]

Second theory: Durkon hits the ceiling and collapses it, but all of the Vamps have already voted. However, the vote becomes invalid since it must take place inside the council chambers, and the council chambers no longer exist, or at least are no longer "inside".

Dude, I CALLED it. I wasn't quite there on the council chambers collapsing, but nailed it on "The chambers is no longer suitable to hold a vote"!

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I just noticed this: the blue "light" that is all over the chamber is all but gone as soon as Dvalin's cleric is "unzotted". Compare the color of the Council Speaker two panels before. It seems that the petrification effect no longer applies now. The lack of the blue barrier in the door behind Durkon also shows this.

[Fyraltari]

I just noticed this: the blue "light" that is all over the chamber is all but gone as soon as Dvalin's cleric is "unzotted". Compare the color of the Council Speaker two panels before. It seems that the petrification effect no longer applies now. The lack of the blue barrier in the door behind Durkon also shows this.

Oh, good catch, I hope That Logann and the others can come quick, because I'm not sure Sigdi can deal with The Exaargh by her lonesome.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And this is how you use Knowledge: bureaucracy to win.

Also, the Order just needs to dust whichever vampire Dominated the last voter, and suddenly they can vote freely.

Or just go solve the Gates problem and have Dvalin say "You know what, proposal withdrawn. New business: I open the floor for suggestions on upgrading security."

[Ridureyu]

OKay okay, let me try my hand on this. So, if I were unreasonably pessimistic and banked all my self-image on the bad guys winning (so i could be "right), my prediction would be:

Round 1: The vampire dominates everybody with ease.
Round 2: The vampire casts Mending on the table.
Round 3: Evil wins, good dies, lots of people go "I told you so!" on the forum. The comic ends in an unsatisfactory manner.
Round 4: Chaos in the streets, mass hysteria, dogs and cats living together.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OKay okay, let me try my hand on this. So, if I were unreasonably pessimistic and banked all my self-image on the bad guys winning (so i could be "right), my prediction would be:

Round 1: The vampire dominates everybody with ease.
Round 2: The vampire casts Mending on the table.
Round 3: Evil wins, good dies, lots of people go "I told you so!" on the forum. The comic ends in an unsatisfactory manner.
Round 4: Chaos in the streets, mass hysteria, dogs and cats living together.

A vampire can only do one domination attempt per round

Grey Wolf

[HalfTangible]

OKay okay, let me try my hand on this. So, if I were unreasonably pessimistic and banked all my self-image on the bad guys winning (so i could be "right), my prediction would be:

Round 1: The vampire dominates everybody with ease-

The blue field turns the vampire to stone, good wins, case closed, miller time!

There's a reason they had to wait until they were inside the orange field but outside the blue one.

[Fyraltari]

The blue field turns the vampire to stone, good wins, case closed, miller time!

There's a reason they had to wait until they were inside the orange field but outside the blue one.

Blue field went away when the meeting was suspended as noted by the 102nd of the Nazzo dynasty.

[Malphegor]

Hah none of us saw this coming in the last thread, I believe.

[HalfTangible]

Blue field went away when the meeting was suspended as noted by the 102nd of the Nazzo dynasty.

The field was up long before the meeting started and the Exarch's statements imply they were up for decades/centuries before then.

[The Troubadour]

That was so awesome!

[Ridureyu]

Or... OR... Vampire kills Sigdi. Hel uses the same rules-lawyering that Thor did to claim followers ("she didn't die in combat. She wasn't technically attacking on the round she died") to claim Sigdi's soul, and sticks to her guns until the other gods let her have her. Everyone is sad, thus giving us enough melodrama for True Art(tm).

[Peelee]

Also, the Order just needs to dust whichever vampire Dominated the last voter, and suddenly they can vote freely.

That was always the case, though. Doing it is another thing entirely, when the vampires are all in the Dwarf-Only area.

[xroads]

ROFL! Awesome strip! I sometimes think Durkon moonlights as an Inevitable or a Modron.

Also, I bet the clerics back at the grand assembly are going to be very annoyed when they learn the vote has been delayed even longer.

Edit: Fixed English. Thanks HalfTangible.

[HalfTangible]

ROFL! Awesome strip! I sometimes think Durkon honeymoons as an Inevitable or a Modron.

Also, I bet the clerics back at the grand assembly are going to be very annoyed when they learn the vote has been delayed even longer.

I think you mean "moonlights"

"Honeymoon" is a vacation taken after you get married.

[ti'esar]

The thing I find most hilarious here is the book referring to the corpse of an oak tree. Because of course the dwarves would make the defeat of their nemesis an important part of their decision-making process.

[Fyraltari]

The field was up long before the meeting started and the Exarch's statements imply they were up for decades/centuries before then.

No it doesn't. It implies they were designed centuries before then, but it says nothing about when it switches on. In light of the fact that it visibly switched* off when the channelling stopped (middle of the second row of the second page) I guess it is triggered by the council being summoned.

Just look at anything white like Gontor*'s or the chairman's beard or Elder Whiterock hair before and after and you'll notice the blueish hue is gone. You can also see tha the runes stopped glowing, and most importantly, there is no longer a barrier behind Durkon in the fourth-to-last panel.

[Grey Watcher]

I think you mean "moonlights"

"Honeymoon" is a vacation taken after you get married.

All the more reason Hilgya doesn't want to marry Durkon.

[Aquillion]

Doesn't Elan have mending? I bet they defeat the vampires and then simply mend the table so the council can resume.Nah. Mending only works if the break is no longer than one foot; this is plainly far more than that.

(And a good thing, or the vampires could fix it.)

[schmunzel]

If a Sending is like a phone call, then I can see a formal letter for the high priest. One does not simply dial up the Space Pope, after all.

Was he even able to cast it at that time ??

sch

[Matt620]

A bit anticlimactic perhaps, but it reminds me of the twists in old school adventure games.

[pendell]

So does Durkon remain petrified until the meeting is re-convened and properly adjourned? Is this how he leaves the story?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cavenskull]

Well, we have another problem then. Durkon hit the roof with the hammer, breaking through to daylight above. They first had to take valuable time to fight through the front gate, past whatever guardians and counter measures were there, to get into the chamber where Durkon could attack the ceiling, turning to stone in the process.

They could have circumvented all of that by simply breaking the ceiling from the surface, and Durkon would still be his fleshy self.

But, that I will give to Durkon being a dwarf and not thinking about the surface. And he probably didn't tell the rest of his party what the final portion of his plan was for Roy to point out the alternate route.

Except the rules don't say "unbroken by the strictest defintion." It says "unbroken." A table that is unbroken by any definition satisfies the requirement. Make whole is valid.

Edit: Also, take exception to the idea that this is the "strictest" definition. "Un" does not mean "never." It means "not." A door that is unlocked was not never locked before. A knot that comes undone was not never done. In fact, for it to have been undone, that implies that it was done at some point.

The rules also say "the table shall be of one (1) piece". Mend that table together and you'll still have a table that was made from two pieces.

Now, one might say that the final result is one piece, but the same could be said for a table made of planks that are permanently fastened together. It's not unusual for people to prefer that something be made from one continuous piece. It's why some people want a marble slab for a counter top instead of marble tile. It's why some people prefer a single 2 ct diamond in a ring than four 0.5 ct diamonds in a ring. And it's why some people prefer a table top made from a solid piece of wood than one made from multiple planks. Sure, magic can result in an utterly flawless repair. However, lab-created diamonds can also be flawless, yet for many people that's "just not the same".

And the beauty of all this is that the argument doesn't have to be utterly convincing and indisputable. It just needs to be enough to spawn debate, and the fact that we're having this debate at all proves it already. After all, they can't very well have their council meeting if they can't agree on whether or not the council chamber is suitable to the task. Why, they might have to schedule a meeting to vote on whether or not the council chamber is in compliance, which could require it's own set of procedure. Perhaps they'll have to bring in professionals to inspect the chamber to verify that it is in fact in compliance. Can't have someone just push the two pieces together and pretend it's just one piece, after all. And if they're doing an inspection to "re-certify" the council chamber, they may very well have to go through the whole procedure, including measuring to make sure that the council chamber conforms to sea level restrictions. After all, maybe they've had issues with melting glaciers or something. Or perhaps Laurin caused some, er, "unintended consequences" with the Plane of Water. And of course, they have now identified at least two holes in their mystical defenses (one literal) that they'll undoubtedly want to address before the next meeting.

It could take quite a lot of time and effort to get the council chamber properly re-certified for Council of Clans meetings.

[Kashem]

Just a revisit on how high level you'd have to be to cast "Make Whole" on the table:
10 cubic feet per level...
the diameter of the table is circa 2-2.5 dwarves, and dwarves are approx. 4 feet tall. So we'll call the diameter of the table 10ft.
The height of the table doesn't matter. I'm casting the spell on the table top, not the table as a whole, but even if you were to target the whole thing, the legs probably don't actually add much true volume. Lets say that the table is 1 foot thick, because that'd be an extraordinarily thick table.
R is 5 feet. pi*r^2 is 78.5 feet^2. If the table is 1 foot thick, then the volume of the tableis 78.5 ft^3.

So you need an 8th level cleric to mend it. Dvalin's Cleric could probably do this easily, since she has to be high enough level to be able to cast summon proxy.

Edit:
Also just a note: if this was a naturally growing white oak tree, since they did specify that it'd have to be an oak (the people said it) then an oak grows approx. 1 inch in diameter every 5 years.
That tree would have to be 600 years old, or heavily magic-assisted.
600 years just so happens to be the maximum age for a White Oak tree in USDA zones 3b through 8b.

[Snails]

Somebody who used to dig a lot, but can’t spell.

And a vampire who cannot read is definitely not preparing Make-youyou-hole-y.

[Snails]

So does Durkon remain petrified until the meeting is re-convened and properly adjourned? Is this how he leaves the story?

Someone helps Sidgi cart him out, and Elan or Hilgya fix him in the morning.

[Cavenskull]

Just a revisit on how high level you'd have to be to cast "Make Whole" on the table:
10 cubic feet per level...
the diameter of the table is circa 2-2.5 dwarves, and dwarves are approx. 4 feet tall. So we'll call the diameter of the table 10ft.
The height of the table doesn't matter. I'm casting the spell on the table top, not the table as a whole, but even if you were to target the whole thing, the legs probably don't actually add much true volume. Lets say that the table is 1 foot thick, because that'd be an extraordinarily thick table.
R is 5 feet. pi*r^2 is 78.5 feet^2. If the table is 1 foot thick, then the volume of the tableis 78.5 ft^3.

So you need an 8th level cleric to mend it. Dvalin's Cleric could probably do this easily, since she has to be high enough level to be able to cast summon proxy.
I've seen 14 dwarves around the table so far, and it looks like there's room for at least 15. Assuming they're standing shoulder-to-shoulder, your math holds up. Now from what I'm seeing, they have some space between them. Assuming a spacing of one foot between them on average (the actual spacing seems to vary), that could result in a circumference of approximately 45 feet, which following your assumption of a one-foot thickness works out to 161.1 feet^2. Assuming the table is just a bit smaller than that, it could still potentially require a cleric of 15-16th level. Reducing the gap between dwarves to 0.5 feet, I'm still calculating 111.9 feet^2, which again with modest reduction could still require a 10-11th level cleric.

[Particle_Man]

Awesome! As for the unbroken table debate, I note that the clan chief said "The council stays suspended until we can get a new one!" not "The council stays suspended until it can be made whole again!". I expect that even if clan chiefs are not clerics themselves, they would know, roughly speaking, what high-level clerics are capable of. So I think they need to get a new tree corpse, not repair the boken one, to get the meeting going again. So assuming the clan chiefs know their own rules (and it seems that they do) the spell make whole would not unsuspend the meeting.

And I wonder if Sigdi is trying to get Gontor to attack her and stone himself, or is just going to kill him? I assume she would know what the situation is with the blue zone better than we do.

[gatemansgc]

Heh, I sort of expected the vote to be invalidated on some kind of legal technicality, but I had absolutely no idea what it could possibly have been.

Now... Absolutely not a prediction, and no idea if it's been mentioned before, but... If the whole vote business were to be fully resolved, that would free up all of those clerics back at the Godsmoot to again act as they see fit, including taking action against the impending threat to the world's safety. Including rallying all their subordinates in their various churches. As it stands though, they're stuck.

Narratively speaking, the current stalemate could ensure that our heroes are really the only people in a position to stop Xycon, despite numerous other powerful individuals now being aware of the situation, which keeps the dramatic stakes high.

Similar to how the Azurites and Girard's family may have been aware of what's going on, but they're (mostly) out of the picture.

But that's only one of a million ways things can play out. I'm not in the business of predictions.

i'm pretty sure you're right. this is order of the stick vs xykon, not "powerful other characters help OOTS defeat xykon".

so they'll definitely stay stuck in the godsmoot where they can't assist in the final battle in any way. i wouldn't be surprised if hilgya skipped out on the final battle too. it's also the reason Durkon's Cousin's Brother-in-Law's Niece's Fiancé isn't going to be rescued until after the final battle either. he's too strong.

[diremage]

Hey, I was right about electioneering 102. They've successfully disenfranchised the Vampire Party, and now they just need a quick bloodbath and some gerrymandering and they'll be all set.

Vote Team Hero! The alternative is a horrific eternity in Hel's embrace. :mitd:

Regarding everyone having memorized section 1.3: That's the section that outlines the snacks and the sufficiency of beer. Of COURSE they're familiar with it.

Now, if they want to REALLY delay proceedings, they could adjourn on the basis that the beer is insufficient. Could be a couple decades to resolve that one.

[rbetieh]

is the spelling error in the rule book on purpose? It reads "earliest possiblt convenience"...

[HalfTangible]

Hey, I was right about electioneering 102. They've successfully disenfranchised the Vampire Party, and now they just need a quick bloodbath and some gerrymandering and they'll be all set.

Vote Team Hero! The alternative is a horrific eternity in Hel's embrace. :mitd:
Bah! Team Hero is an elitist, exclusionary party only concerned with the status quo. You never know if they're actually good, either; Antiheroes are rampant in the party.

Team Villain is an equal opportunity oppressor, and are so good at job creation we never stop hiring. Our patented genocide and mass murder campaigns are single-handedly responsible for fixing the world's population crisis, and you know you can trust us to be evil.

Vote Team Villain! Angel's blood really brings out the color of your eyes!

[Fish]

A good comic that ties together some important character building laid down long ago. This is why the Order needed Durkon — not just any dwarven clerics in the wide beautiful world, but Durkon. And it’s probably also why the dwarves have been obsessively attacking trees; there’s no more old growth forest around here.

Plenty of material to make stakes, I notice.

[Squire Doodad]

A good comic that ties together some important character building laid down long ago. This is why the Order needed Durkon — not just any dwarven clerics in the wide beautiful world, but Durkon. And it’s probably also why the dwarves have been obsessively attacking trees; there’s no more old growth forest around here.

Plenty of material to make stakes, I notice.

Durkon for Governor of Dwarfland, 1086
"Transcribing Accents For Over 50 Years"

[danielxcutter]

Oh my god, that was PRICELESS.

[ackmondual]

Huh... it would appear Dwarves are better at writing requirements than modern tech companies!! :eek:

[The MunchKING]

Heck, the dwarven council is doing well to not have a guy who poops purple.

Grey Wolf

What, because he's a child that eats crayons? Or is that a specific thing I'm not aware of?


would be hard to explain with only 25 words a week, he might have just used it purely for status reports without trying to explain everything

Alternately that was before he got Sending, and since then he's leveled up a lot.


1) If Dvalin doesn't vote at all, it stays where it is now, a tie. Not sure what the moot's rules say then, since the rule was to bring in the lesser deities if there was a tie among the greater. But I'm guessing that neither a stalemate nor a re-vote would end in Hel's favor.

My guess is the Big Gods try to go pressure the DemiGods that didn't show up into coming to the Godsmoot now that their vote is important.


Awesome! As for the unbroken table debate, I note that the clan chief said "The council stays suspended until we can get a new one!" not "The council stays suspended until it can be made whole again!". I expect that even if clan chiefs are not clerics themselves, they would know, roughly speaking, what high-level clerics are capable of.

It's part of that whole Self-aware stick parody thing.

[tufttugger]

Watch this vampire do something against the rules with Durkon's mother in his face... and get zapped for it.

[Rollin]

Motion... Tabled.

[Snails]

Motion... Tabled.

What would Thor do?
Not act like the sky is falling.
But make the sky actually fall.

[Ruck]

Or... OR... Vampire kills Sigdi. Hel uses the same rules-lawyering that Thor did to claim followers ("she didn't die in combat. She wasn't technically attacking on the round she died") to claim Sigdi's soul, and sticks to her guns until the other gods let her have her. Everyone is sad, thus giving us enough melodrama for True Art(tm).

I neither think Hel has a case nor think that killing Sigdi here would be True Art but rather would come across as cheap and cruel.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What, because he's a child that eats crayons? Or is that a specific thing I'm not aware of?


George III, the king of England during the American War of Independence, lost his mind, probably due to Porphyria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyria#Notable_cases). One of the more delightful characteristics of the sickness is that it turns poo purple.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

What would Thor do?
Not act like the sky is falling.
But make the sky actually fall.

So close to a haiku.

What Would Thor Do? Not
act like the sky is falling,
But make the sky fall.

[Hemoparty]

Aha, haha! Durkon found the most Durkonly way to win! Also, glad to see the orange barrier through the hole this time, it's a nice touch.

[One Skunk Todd]

I wonder if the typo in the rules nullifies everything else.

[HouseRules]

Make Whole does not work because it needs to be a corpse of an oak tree not the corpse of a table.

[One Skunk Todd]

Presumably that tree made a lot of tables. Maybe they could have one magically brought in from nearby.

[Grey Watcher]

I wonder if the typo in the rules nullifies everything else.

At most only in that section.


Motion... Tabled.

...

Ow.

[One Skunk Todd]

Oh man, now I have this idea that a tree that big was an epic monster/battle. Items made from it are probably of immense dwarven cultural and historic significance.

[One Skunk Todd]

Does Durkon’s clan run meetings by following Robert’s Rules of Thorder?

[derfenrirwolv]

Well no wonder the table cracked so easily the grains going the wrong way.

Dwarves....

[jwhouk]

Anyone else upthread get the feeling Sigdi is poking the tiger with a stick here?

[Leftour]

The corpse of a tree line is just hilarious.

One point though. If i am not mistaken, Sigdi carries in the strip her first axe, the dwarven waraxe that fell down the chasm. The replacement battleaxe she gets att #1169 has clearly smaller blade and no spiky butt. Is that an art mistake? I understand from previous forum posts that Sigdi wasn't meant to drop the axe in earlier drafts. Personally I prefer the waraxe, it is heftier and Sigdi looks more menacing wielding it.

[VaarsuviusFan#1]

Behold, Durkon just performed the engineering skill check to end all engineering skill checks.

[CriticalFailure]

Motion... Tabled.

Better than motion oakayed.

[Schroeswald]

Bah! Team Hero is an elitist, exclusionary party only concerned with the status quo. You never know if they're actually good, either; Antiheroes are rampant in the party.

Team Villain is an equal opportunity oppressor, and are so good at job creation we never stop hiring. Our patented genocide and mass murder campaigns are single-handedly responsible for fixing the world's population crisis, and you know you can trust us to be evil.

Vote Team Villain! Angel's blood really brings out the color of your eyes!

Bah! Team Villian is full of foreign scum, if you want oppression with a strong base at home vote for the Hel Caucus, all dwarven. Team Villian’s leadership is 50% goblinoid, 25% undead and 25% unknown, you can’t trust it to fight for dwarves. This election cycle vote third party, vote the Hel caucus.

[Kaed]

More amusing to me is that part of the laws state that after they finish a vote they all get snacks and beer :P

[HalfTangible]

Bah! Team Villian is full of foreign scum, if you want oppression with a strong base at home vote for the Hel Caucus, all dwarven. Team Villian’s leadership is 50% goblinoid, 25% undead and 25% unknown, you can’t trust it to fight for dwarves. This election cycle vote third party, vote the Hel caucus.

You say you want a party that looks out for the dwarves

So you vote for the caucus that wants to torture dwarves for eternity? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

[Schroeswald]

You say you want a party that looks out for the dwarves

So you vote for the caucus that wants to torture dwarves for eternity? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

Well if you want Evil and you want to vote for dwarves its either that or the Linear Guild, its the borst of two evoods.

[Squire Doodad]

Bah! Team Villian is full of foreign scum, if you want oppression with a strong base at home vote for the Hel Caucus, all dwarven. Team Villian’s leadership is 50% goblinoid, 25% undead and 25% unknown, you can’t trust it to fight for dwarves. This election cycle vote third party, vote the Hel caucus.

Unlike the sketchy upstart Team Evil, Team Villain is a strong antagonist platform, comprising of a vast, diverse suite of members from many races, species and states of living. Ranging from Undead to Daemonic to Lizardfolk to Draconic to [Unspeakable Rune] to Human to Cyborg, along with smaller amounts of members from a massive variety of species, Team Villain refuses to be speciesist about their membership like the primarily Humanoid and Celestial Team Hero. What their members actually do in terms of being speciesist is not relevant right now
Despite former candidate Jim W. Garland's narrow loss (polling at 42%, lost by 3%) in the last round of elections, Team Villain stands strong with their conviction that they can pull in a clean win this cycle. Current candidate Cyborg Al Capone's "Booze in every hidden cellar and a Speakeasy in every garage" campaign has pulled in impressive polling numbers thus far, and looks to get high numbers in this election.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

One point though. If i am not mistaken, Sigdi carries in the strip her first axe, the dwarven waraxe that fell down the chasm. The replacement battleaxe she gets att #1169 has clearly smaller blade and no spiky butt. Is that an art mistake? I understand from previous forum posts that Sigdi wasn't meant to drop the axe in earlier drafts. Personally I prefer the waraxe, it is heftier and Sigdi looks more menacing wielding it.

Nice catch. Yes, looks like a continuity error. Is there a way to warn Rich about this?

[Schroeswald]

Unlike the sketchy upstart Team Evil, Team Villain is a strong antagonist platform, comprising of a vast, diverse suite of members from many races, species and states of living. Ranging from Undead to Daemonic to Lizardfolk to Draconic to [Unspeakable Rune] to Human to Cyborg, along with smaller amounts of members from a massive variety of species, Team Villain refuses to be speciesist about their membership like the primarily Humanoid and Celestial Team Hero. What their members actually do in terms of being speciesist is not relevant right now
Despite former candidate Jim W. Garland's narrow loss (polling at 42%, lost by 3%) in the last round of elections, Team Villain stands strong with their conviction that they can pull in a clean win this cycle. Current candidate Cyborg Al Capone's "Booze in every hidden cellar and a Speakeasy in every garage" campaign has pulled in impressive polling numbers thus far, and looks to get high numbers in this election.

Team Villian and other major parties have been oppressing the vampiric spirits of the Hel caucus for decades, they only recently gained a cleric due to the prevention of northern clerics being aware of the party. Garland and Capone are still focused on taller medium sized creatures, while the Loki Caucus has only token dwarf representation, almost every leader of the Hel caucus is 4-5 feet tall.

[Anansiil]

It's a glorious feeling, crushing your opposition with a legitimate rule :)
This comic is such a delight!

[Squire Doodad]

Team Villian and other major parties have been oppressing the vampiric spirits of the Hel caucus for decades, they only recently gained a cleric due to the prevention of northern clerics being aware of the party. Garland and Capone are still focused on taller medium sized creatures, while the Loki Caucus has only token dwarf representation, almost every leader of the Hel caucus is 4-5 feet tall.

Would the almost completely dwarven Hel caucus be any better? Granted, the Team Villain platform has dwarves as a minority in comparison to other parts of their general demographic, but the amount of members who are within the given size range is about 85% of the Hel Caucus.

[Leftour]

Nice catch. Yes, looks like a continuity error. Is there a way to warn Rich about this?

A similar error at #1166 was corrected just within a few hours after release.

[Schroeswald]

Would the almost completely dwarven Hel caucus be any better? Granted, the Team Villain platform has dwarves as a minority in comparison to other parts of their general demographic, but the amount of members who are within the given size range is about 85% of the Hel Caucus.

If you're a dwarf it is better, and the Hel Caucus supports dwarven supremacy (with of course some strong Northern human creatures and vampiric spirits in the bodies of dwarves and strong Northern humans in major roles).

[Askthepizzaguy]

"Death and Destruction" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html).

Durkon said he brought death, and then when he picked up Thor's hammer, he said it was time for some destruction.

Well, that hammer destroyed that table, and also, Hel's plans.

Durkon fulfilled his prophecy.

[Goblin_Priest]

Durkon's gonna have a hard time swaying redcloak as a statue, now.

[Larre Gannd]

Durkon's gonna have a hard time swaying redcloak as a statue, now.

Semantics.

[Ironsmith]

Anyone else upthread get the feeling Sigdi is poking the tiger with a stick here?

In a room where she enjoys protection from any physical harm. And even if Gontor* did attack her, she's a mid-to-high level fighter and will therefore have a decent total of hit dice and hit points to burn through in one round.

[Squire Doodad]

Durkon's gonna have a hard time swaying redcloak as a statue, now.

With Durkon's inherent traits, he'd only suffer a -1 penalty really.

[Kantaki]

In a room where she enjoys protection from any physical harm. And even if Gontor* did attack her, she's a mid-to-high level fighter and will therefore have a decent total of hit dice and hit points to burn through in one round.

And if the vampire manages to kill her it's probably a honourable death, so she doesn't exactly loose even then.

[137beth]

That is the most impressive in-fight line from a parent in the series so far, I think. Sigdi fight-talks a lot better than Tarquin, Lauren, the ancient black dragon, or Right-Eye.

[Squire Doodad]

That is the most impressive in-fight line from a parent in the series so far, I think. Sigdi fight-talks a lot better than Tarquin, Lauren, the ancient black dragon, or Right-Eye.

Sigidi is also the weakest of all of them.
Correlation?
...maybe?

[Dentarthur]

One righteous beatdown from Mama Thundershield. :smallcool:

[Davian]

it's also the reason Durkon's Cousin's Brother-in-Law's Niece's Fiancé isn't going to be rescued until after the final battle either. he's too strong.

Yeah. While I don't expect him to play any sort of major role, I'm sure we haven't seen the last of him; he just stands out so much. I fully expect him to show up in the moment of maximum comedic effect, just far enough down the line for most of us to have forgotten about him.

[Snails]

If I were playing a bard in that party, when I do the Break Enchantment on Durkon, I would totally be telling him Xykon was already defeated.

[Jay R]

I specifically predicted that:


Rich has surprised me before, and I suspect that he is going to surprise me again, with a result that looks very reasonable after the fact, but which we didn't see coming.

"Were ye really so dumb ta think fer one second tha ye could beat Durkon--Durkon o' all tha folks in this great big beaut'ful world, in a fight that revolved around following tha rules?!?"


I'm goin' ta call tha one a win fer me.

[CandidKid]

Wait... if the object of throwing the Hammer was to break the table... why didn't Durkon just use the Hammer to break the table? He still would have been stoned for destruction of property, but it would have been a more certain method than hoping a random rock falling from the ceiling would do it...

Plus, spelling error in the rules as shown in panel 17, at the top - "earliest possiblt convenience"