AT vs EK Casting

[nickl_2000]

So, it seems like intelligence is significantly more important for an Arcane Trickster than it is for an Eldritch Knight. EKs seems like they have significantly more choices for spells that don't rely on the casting stat than ATs do.

Am I reading it wrong, or does that seem right to others as well?

[GlenSmash!]

Seems that way to me. Outside of Counterspell I've never worried about INT on an EK.

[Willie the Duck]

No, you are correct. ATs have a bunch of good enchantment and illusion spells that both 1) require a save, and 2) are actually reasonable to use at the level when a 1/3 caster gets them. An EK has a number of defensive options for their spells which do not require a save, and many of the spells they get which do require a save come online at a point where they aren't all that useful. There are exceptions (fireball is still a fine spell at 13th level, but devoting a high Int to the PC at level 1 for it is quite the wait, and of course a high-Str EK who dumps Dex because they have cantrips as a ranged backup is fine), but the trend is definitely there.

[Finieous]

Maybe because the AT probably has Int-based skills he cares about? Otherwise, my 11th-level AT has never cast a save spell. Other than cantrips, he's used find familiar, shield, disguise self, silent image, misty step, blur, invisibility, and mirror image. Bolded are my out-of-school spells (I took Magic Initiate, so I have two 1st-level out-of-school spells). Maybe when I get 3rd or 4th-level spells? Even then I'd rather save my precious few slots for blink, haste, or greater invisibility and leave the spellcasting to real spellcasters.

[Snowbluff]

It's true, but I wouldn't sweat it too much. Remember that AT and EK do get a spell per level from another school. A lot of AT mostly start with the blade cantrips, which are a straight DPR boost, and then grab haste later. Also, if you ask me, I find the AT ability Magical Ambush and their extra ASI at 10 means it's not such a big problem. Like take small amount of Int early on like 14, and then grab maybe a bump to it later on. Maybe go with the Observant feat, which is super handy for a scout.

[nickl_2000]

Maybe because the AT probably has Int-based skills he cares about? Otherwise, my 11th-level AT has never cast a save spell. Other than cantrips, he's used find familiar, shield, disguise self, silent image, misty step, blur, invisibility, and mirror image. Bolded are my out-of-school spells (I took Magic Initiate, so I have two 1st-level out-of-school spells). Maybe when I get 3rd or 4th-level spells? Even then I'd rather save my precious few slots for blink, haste, or greater invisibility and leave the spellcasting to real spellcasters.

Silent Image has a save. That was one I was looking at because as soon as an illusion is noticed by someone it turns useless.

[Snowbluff]

Silent Image has a save. That was one I was looking at because as soon as an illusion is noticed by someone it turns useless.

If they take their action and if they are good at investigating. Most people won't and aren't. Remember even if your int is 10 (I wouldn't go lower on a trap finder, technically Investigate is the trap finding skill), you still get your prof to the DC.


Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an Illusion, because things can pass through it. A creature that uses its action to examine the image can determine that it is an Illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If a creature discerns the Illusion for what it is, the creature can see through the image.

[Finieous]

Silent Image has a save. That was one I was looking at because as soon as an illusion is noticed by someone it turns useless.

No, it doesn't have a save. It has an Investigation check if a creature uses their action to investigate it. Same with disguise self

[Chronos]

You'd think that Investigate would be the trap-finding skill, but the actual rules (scattered across three chapters in the PHB and one in the DMG, for your convenience) say that it's Perception.

[nickl_2000]

You'd think that Investigate would be the trap-finding skill, but the actual rules (scattered across three chapters in the PHB and one in the DMG, for your convenience) say that it's Perception.

Frankly it's whatever the DM calls for anyways...

[Zhorn]

You'd think that Investigate would be the trap-finding skill, but the actual rules (scattered across three chapters in the PHB and one in the DMG, for your convenience) say that it's Perception.
Frankly it's whatever the DM calls for anyways...

Perception for noticing traps; "Something seems off about this room"
Investigation for actively looking for traps; "Before I open this door, I'm going to look for a trigger on the handle or hinge first"

[Ninja_Prawn]

You'd think that Investigate would be the trap-finding skill, but the actual rules (scattered across three chapters in the PHB and one in the DMG, for your convenience) say that it's Perception.

That might be because the books usually talk about spotting traps that would be visible to sharp eyes, like tripwires or pitfalls.

A typical rogue, however, isn't just happening to spot traps sometimes. Searching for a trap in a specific place like a lock or a doorframe, particularly one that wouldn't be visible to the casual observer, is always going to be Investigation.

Anyway, back on topic, sleep, invisibility, mirror image and blur don't rely on your spellcasting modifier, so there are definitely good options there. It's a shame to miss out on suggestion and potentially leaves your silent images vulnerable to disbelief, but I reckon you could get away with a low Int AT if you really wanted to.

[Tanarii]

Dumping Int of an EK means missing out on half of their extra capabilities: magical AoE & ranged damage. You can do it, but it's intentionally nerfing yourself.

Great low level spells for EKs:
Thunderwave
Chromatic Orb
Scorching Ray
Shatter

Even burning hands has its place as AoE damage, depending on your build.

[Teaguethebean]

Dumping Int of an EK means missing out on half of their extra capabilities: magical AoE & ranged damage. You can do it, but it's intentionally nerfing yourself.

Great low level spells for EKs:
Thunderwave
Chromatic Orb
Scorching Ray
Shatter

Even burning hands has its place as AoE damage, depending on your build.

I would actually argue chromatic orb is garbage on an Eldritch knight. You can't really pump int with Asi's and 3d8 isn't very good at lv 3 and scorching Ray's 6d6 at lv7 also is pretty bad.

[Zhorn]

scorching Ray's 6d6 at lv7 also is pretty bad.

Without the spell progression, those later levels are best spent on being a fighter first or leveraging those SCAG cantrips, but at earlier levels, those low level spells can still be a solid option. 6d6 on a 1st* 2nd level spell slot is still pretty neat, but yes, it needs the INT investment to get the true value out of it with those multiple spell attack rolls.

*edit: my bad

Do you mean 2nd Level slot.
good catch

[Chronos]

Yup, like I said, Investigate to search for traps makes plenty of sense. Except that the rules don't seem to agree. The only skill ever given for finding traps is Perception. And no, of course I'm not at all bitter about the cleric being better at trapfinding than my rogue, even without any proficiency.

And while you can make an Arcane Trickster without any casting-stat-dependant spells, you're missing out on some really good options by doing so. Magical Ambush is the best way any class gets of making saving-throw spells stick, and there are a lot of good save-or-lose spells available to Arcane Tricksters, even at reasonable levels (Tasha's, Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern...).

[nickl_2000]

Yup, like I said, Investigate to search for traps makes plenty of sense. Except that the rules don't seem to agree. The only skill ever given for finding traps is Perception. And no, of course I'm not at all bitter about the cleric being better at trapfinding than my rogue, even without any proficiency.

And while you can make an Arcane Trickster without any casting-stat-dependant spells, you're missing out on some really good options by doing so. Magical Ambush is the best way any class gets of making saving-throw spells stick, and there are a lot of good save-or-lose spells available to Arcane Tricksters, even at reasonable levels (Tasha's, Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern...).

So what do you consider a reasonable starting Int for an AT? Is 14 enough with a boost to 16 at some point with an ASI?

[Teaguethebean]

Without the spell progression, those later levels are best spent on being a fighter first or leveraging those SCAG cantrips, but at earlier levels, those low level spells can still be a solid option. 6d6 on a 1st level spell slot is still pretty neat, but yes, it needs the INT investment to get the true value out of it with those multiple spell attack rolls.

Do you mean 2nd Level slot. I would much rather spend that slot on mirror image or even shield.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Without the spell progression, those later levels are best spent on being a fighter first or leveraging those SCAG cantrips, but at earlier levels, those low level spells can still be a solid option. 6d6 on a 1st level spell slot is still pretty neat, but yes, it needs the INT investment to get the true value out of it with those multiple spell attack rolls.


Do you mean 2nd Level slot. I would much rather spend that slot on mirror image or even shield.

If I'm a low-DEX, mid-to-high-INT EK, I'd rather just pick Fire Bolt as one of my cantrips, and not use one of my precious few spells known on single-target ranged damage. Limited spell slots aside, I only need one thing to replace my ineptitude with a bow, expending more resources would be wasteful. I'm not trying to be good at ranged DPS as well as melee, I'm just trying to not be left twiddling my thumbs if my enemies are on the other side of a ravine, or flying, or otherwise outside of melee reach. Limited spell slots not aside, even if I know Scorching Ray, it'll almost always be a waste of a slot to cast it.

[Tanarii]

I would actually argue chromatic orb is garbage on an Eldritch knight. You can't really pump int with Asi's and 3d8 isn't very good at lv 3 and scorching Ray's 6d6 at lv7 also is pretty bad.
There's no reason an EK can't pump Int with ASIs. And if you're not dumping Int you've got good reason to.

3d8 with 150ft range sure beats 30ft Javelins. Which is the point. EKs get two things other Str fighters don't. Range and Area.

A good argument could be made not to keep it as you level up your Fire Bolt or whatever, of course.

[Snowbluff]

My problem isn't so much the int requirement (Rogue and Fighter get more than the standard class), but rather the weak damage die. Thunderwave like like 2d8, only 9 points of damage. At level 3 it's ok, but once you get to 5 you can just cut 2 people, probably hitting for more on each hit. If you ask me AoE damage spells don't really get good until Spell Level 3, with spells like Fireball (and for non Wizard based classes, Spirit Guardians).

[Tanarii]

My problem isn't so much the int requirement (Rogue and Fighter get more than the standard class), but rather the weak damage die. Thunderwave like like 2d8, only 9 points of damage. At level 3 it's ok, but once you get to 5 you can just cut 2 people, probably hitting for more on each hit. If you ask me AoE damage spells don't really get good until Spell Level 3, with spells like Fireball (and for non Wizard based classes, Spirit Guardians).
Thunderwave isn't primarily about damage. That's just an added benefit if you can happen to catch enough creatures in it. That's why I caveat'd Burning Hands and didn't include it on my list.

Speaking of control EK spells that are save dependent, I should have included Gust of Wind.

[Teaguethebean]

There's no reason an EK can't pump Int with ASIs. And if you're not dumping Int you've got good reason to.


I just feel that at lv3 and probably up to 6 your int will be 14 unless you roll in which case I suppose this point I made doesn't stand but a +4 to hit is very unreliable making magic missle seem much better. Hitting for an average of 13.5 on the average cr 3 though with chance at missing it goes down too 8.775 when accounting for miss chance and crit rate while magic missle which has no int needed does an average of 10.5 and is far more reliable with no miss chance and a similar range.