Competitive backgrounds

[zinycor]

So, recently I acquired the Guildmaster guide to Ravnica, for the most part, I really liked it. But I really disliked the fact that backgrounds give spells. I always liked how backgrounds were treated before this, as mainly an rp thing, which didn't really grant a real bonus but informed who your character and it's motivations. I feel like having backgrounds giving spells, makes it so they are now open to be optimized.

Anyway, what are your thoughts regarding backgrounds and their implementation?

[nickl_2000]

Ya, I don't like it at all. I wouldn't allow those at a table I was DMing

[Zhorn]

I did not offer Ravnica backgrounds to my players due to the spells, and I normally have the "all official sources are acceptable" mindset.

I did tell my players to pick two background features though (one full background, and one for just the ribbon feature) as a way to flesh out their characters more, and so far have used at least one background feature in every 2nd/3rd session.

[MrStabby]

I am torn.

I think that backgrounds are important and should be a pretty big feature at a table, they should encourage people to play to them. They should be RP focused rather than power focused.

That said... if features reinforce the background and help push this set of outlooks and allegiances to the forefront of play that would also please me.

There are also thematic characters that I have been unable to make, for whom this whole thing is a gift. A paladin of Moradin for example benefits from access to the Izzet spell list.

When I first saw the lists I thought it was dangerous, since then I don't really think most of it is overpowered. The classes that get the most out of an expanded spell list are those that know/prepare the most spells and have the spell slots to use for them, i.e. casting classes. For any given guild there are usually only about two powerful spells on the list that are not already on the class list or accessible easily some other way.

[Lunali]

Ravnica backgrounds are very appropriate for a game set in Ravnica or a similar setting, where they will probably be the only backgrounds, and completely inappropriate anywhere else.

[Amechra]

I am torn.

I think that backgrounds are important and should be a pretty big feature at a table, they should encourage people to play to them. They should be RP focused rather than power focused.

That said... if features reinforce the background and help push this set of outlooks and allegiances to the forefront of play that would also please me.

There are also thematic characters that I have been unable to make, for whom this whole thing is a gift. A paladin of Moradin for example benefits from access to the Izzet spell list.

When I first saw the lists I thought it was dangerous, since then I don't really think most of it is overpowered. The classes that get the most out of an expanded spell list are those that know/prepare the most spells and have the spell slots to use for them, i.e. casting classes. For any given guild there are usually only about two powerful spells on the list that are not already on the class list or accessible easily some other way.

The really dangerous combos are stuff like Golgari Warlocks, which demonstrates why Animate Dead wasn't on the Warlock spell-list in the first place.

I'm just sad that they used all their space up with overpowered backgrounds and didn't give us overpowered feats for each Guild :smalltongue:.

[DeadMech]

The idea that backgrounds weren't picked for mechanical reasons before this is a laugh. They offer, for some characters, 50% of their skill loadout.

My thoughts on the implementation of backgrounds? Not favorable.

It's often the single most stressful aspect of putting a character sheet together. If I want the skill loadout that I want to play with then I have to either pick very specific class skills and background combinations to make it work or else play mother may I with my DM to get a customized background approved.

And narratively it's worse. I can perfectly well draft a character backstory and motivation without 5e's approach.

[MrStabby]

The really dangerous combos are stuff like Golgari Warlocks, which demonstrates why Animate Dead wasn't on the Warlock spell-list in the first place.

I'm just sad that they used all their space up with overpowered backgrounds and didn't give us overpowered feats for each Guild :smalltongue:.

This was one of the things that worried me at the start, but honestly armies of undead are not often too much of a problem. One enemy cleric and they all disappear. Investing too much is not going to be too powerful and a handful of them is kind of OK.

[DerficusRex]

or else play mother may I with my DM to get a customized background approved.

Have you had DMs give you trouble with that? It's not even an optional rule - the PHB expressly says you can make up your own background with any two skills, plus a total of two tools or languages, and one of the existing background features.

The traits/ideals/bonds/flaws stuff is all just suggestion too - that section specifies at the very beginning that you can write your own.

[DeadMech]

Have you had DMs give you trouble with that?

Absolutely and I've pointed it out each time. At this point I don't bother mentioning I'm doing it. I just do it since he never asks to review the sheet before we start anyway. It's easier to just beg forgiveness if he finds out than to ask permission.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Ravnica backgrounds are very appropriate for a game set in Ravnica or a similar setting, where they will probably be the only backgrounds, and completely inappropriate anywhere else.
This!
The Ravnica book is intended for Ravnica Campaigns. The material isn’t intended to be balanced against other stuff.

[zinycor]

This!
The Ravnica book is intended for Ravnica Campaigns. The material isn’t intended to be balanced against other stuff.

So, is it because of this being a high magic setting? Should other high magic setting also have backgrounds that grant spells?

[Lord Vukodlak]

So, is it because of this being a high magic setting? Should other high magic setting also have backgrounds that grant spells?
If its appropriate to the setting as established then yes. I can't tell you without seeing the campaign. But if you wrote an Eberron campaign with the expectation that EVERYONE belong to a dragonmarked house then yes.

Ravnica comes from the "Magic The Gathering" card came with each guild specializing in certain colors of magic. For example Black and Green for the Gelgori Swarm. So they decided the best way to represent that was was joining a guild added certain spells to your available spell list. They aren't free just added to the list of spells you can choose from. So a Gelgori Warlock CAN learn animate dead(and he probably should) but its not automatic upon gaining access to 3rd level spells).

If there was a 5e Modern campaign book, designed for supernatural intrigue, monster hunting and adventuring in the modern day. You wouldn't expect it to be balanced for use in the forgotten realms would you?

[Keravath]

The idea that backgrounds weren't picked for mechanical reasons before this is a laugh. They offer, for some characters, 50% of their skill loadout.

My thoughts on the implementation of backgrounds? Not favorable.

It's often the single most stressful aspect of putting a character sheet together. If I want the skill loadout that I want to play with then I have to either pick very specific class skills and background combinations to make it work or else play mother may I with my DM to get a customized background approved.

And narratively it's worse. I can perfectly well draft a character backstory and motivation without 5e's approach.

Since PHB custom backgrounds are accepted in many games, the skills could be picked for mechanical or character backstory reasons or however the player wants. There generally isn't a "best" background when you can mix and match to fit the character you want.

"The sample backgrounds in this chapter provide both concrete benefits (features, proficiencies, and languages) and roleplaying suggestions." PHB 124

"CUSTOMIZING A BACKGROUND
You might want to tweak some of the features of a background so it better fits your character or the campaign setting. To customize a background, you can replace one feature with any other one, choose any two skills, and choose a total of two tool proficiencies or languages from the sample backgrounds." PHB 124

The rules clearly indicate that the chapter contains sample backgrounds and goes on to clearly describe how the player can customize the background for their character or campaign setting. It isn't an optional rule. It isn't go beg a DM "Can I have these skills". If a DM refuses to accept custom backgrounds built for a character concept the player has then they are purposefully house ruling additional limitations that don't exist in RAW. It's not as if sailors have a lock on proficiency in athletics and perception for example.

On the other hand, the new backgrounds from Ravnica do provide abilities that would otherwise be unavailable to a character unless they take that specific background. (Very useful spells not otherwise available on class lists is one great example). So I would agree with the person who said Ravnica backgrounds might be appropriate for play in a Ravnica game but no where else.

Finally, the 5e approach to character creation is not aimed at the folks who have no problem coming up with a character concept, fleshing out their goals, desires, fears, how they are likely to react or behave. For these folks, make up your own backstory/background, pick 2 skills, 2 tool/languages, a background feature and go to town.

The 5e system is designed for the majority (? - but especially new folks) who don't have the time, or don't have a decent concept, then the 5e system can walk them through some basics of creating a character that can be role played. It isn't a straight jacket on your imagination unless your DM makes it that way, it is a guide to suggest ideas to everyone else.

[zinycor]

If there was a 5e Modern campaign book, designed for supernatural intrigue, monster hunting and adventuring in the modern day. You wouldn't expect it to be balanced for use in the forgotten realms would you?

I wouldn't, and I am not arguing for balance, am just surprised to see this at backgrounds, instead of feats, races or even classes archetype.

I found that it would be extremely easy to just take those into other settings, with only changing the fluff. But to see that the imbalance would be around the backgrounds surprised me.

[Tiadoppler]

I dislike the Ravnica "backgrounds" immensely, but I see what the designers were trying to do with them, and like the concept.

In my opinion, a background should be just that: the things your character has learned and mastered over their life so far. It might represent education or practice, but it's a part of your character's history and it doesn't change over time. The Ravnica backgrounds can be swapped out or taken away, and grant changing future benefits. Ravnica backgrounds aren't really backgrounds at all.

At my table, characters have Backgrounds (what skills, tools and languages they've mastered), and Affiliations (the organizations or groups they're a part of: gaining membership benefits from, paying dues to and performing required services for). The Ravnica backgrounds aren't backgrounds at all - they're affiliations.

So, I like the Ravnica backgrounds as a tool/rough guide to 'what kinds of benefits would you get from being a member of a powerful organization' (like the Harpers, Red Wizards or being a knight of some nation or other), but not as a feature tacked onto the 'background' mechanic.

[zinycor]

I dislike the Ravnica "backgrounds" immensely, but I see what the designers were trying to do with them, and like the concept.

In my opinion, a background should be just that: the things your character has learned and mastered over their life so far. It might represent education or practice, but it's a part of your character's history and it doesn't change over time. The Ravnica backgrounds can be swapped out or taken away, and grant changing future benefits. Ravnica backgrounds aren't really backgrounds at all.

At my table, characters have Backgrounds (what skills, tools and languages they've mastered), and Affiliations (the organizations or groups they're a part of: gaining membership benefits from, paying dues to and performing required services for). The Ravnica backgrounds aren't backgrounds at all - they're affiliations.

So, I like the Ravnica backgrounds as a tool/rough guide to 'what kinds of benefits would you get from being a member of a powerful organization' (like the Harpers, Red Wizards or being a knight of some nation or other), but not as a feature tacked onto the 'background' mechanic.

I love that idea, giving players the "normal" backgrounds and "affiliations" that include only the spell list and main ability of the Ravnica backgrounds seems like the best of both worlds.