How much gold is a feat worth? How much is a flaw?

[ChudoJogurt]

Hi all.

Not sure if this goes here or in a homebrew section, but still:

There are certain ways to purchase a feat in D&D, either by visiting exotic locations or by purchasing a magic item that gives the benefits of the feat (or grants a feat while it's worn/held/used).

Can a feat be made that would grant a character more gold on generation?
How much could such a feat grant without breaking the game or being entirely useless?
One imagines it would be measured as a fraction of WBL but I'm not sure how much would be appropriate.

On another hand, perhaps a Flaw can be made that makes the character start with less WBL?
Vow of Poverty can be considered such a flaw (it does take two feats to get, and does grant bunch of other benefits, but essentially it gives you stuff for permanently setting your WBL to zero -- stuff that, I think, has been established to not be sufficient compensation).
How much would such flaw reduce the WBL?

[Particle_Man]

If it helps there is a trait in Pathfinder that lets you start chargen with 900 gp. A trait is generally worth half of a feat.

[HouseRules]

Well, 3.5 flaws are less well rounded style. They are for more minmaxing.

Look at these three flaws (forgot their names)

+2 Fortitude, -1 Reflex, -1 Will
+2 Reflex, -1 Fortitude, -1 Will
+2 Will, -1 Fortitude, -1 Reflex


Get all three at you are back to square one.

[Biggus]

The standard price for a magic item that grants a feat is 10,000GP, but obviously that's too much to give at level 1. Maybe you could allow 500-1,000GP to start and the rest in increments over the next 5-10 levels?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Can a feat be made that would grant a character more gold on generation?
How much could such a feat grant without breaking the game or being entirely useless?
One imagines it would be measured as a fraction of WBL but I'm not sure how much would be appropriate.

The Landlord (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/stronghold-builders-guidebook--49/landlord--1731/index.html) feat grants a considerable amount of free gold (or virtual gold equivalent, depending on fluff), essentially more than doubling your WBL but only for the purpose of building a stronghold, which are quite powerful but have some pretty severe limitations (hard to take into dungeons, immobile unless you spring for the pricey movement options, etc.). Ancestral Relic (https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Ancestral_Relic) also effectively gives you a lot of money, because you can directly convert valuable goods and items into enchantments for your relic without taking the usual sell-for-half-price hit, but again there's a pretty severe limitation to exactly one masterwork item previously owned by a relative.

Going by that example, a feat could give a lot of gold and still be balanced as long as there were fairly strict requirements for its use. A feat for wizards granting free gold for spell scribing, say, or one for monks that gave virtual gold for the purposes of enchanting their body with weapon and armor enhancements.

Of course, you can always invest all of that virtual gold to enhance your relic or stronghold and then sell it for cash like any other magic item or structure, but sacrificing/building it takes a lot of time (at least a year for the relic given the 1 day/1,000 gp requirement, at least a few months for the stronghold since multiple crafters can help at once) and finding a buyer could be tricky, so a feat that gives you a quarter to a half of gold usable for any purpose but does so over a long period of time and/or after a character jumps through some hoops could also be balanced.

Is there a particular use case for the gold you had in mind?


On another hand, perhaps a Flaw can be made that makes the character start with less WBL?

Not really, no. The little -1/-2/-3 that most flaws give are (A) small, so they're really noticeable at 1st and 2nd level but eventually have little impact overall, (B) specific, so it's possible to find ones that don't affect you too much, and (C) intrinsic, so they affect only the character; however, a flaw reducing WBL grows more impactful the higher your starting level, and a less-WBL flaw affects pretty much every character.

Also, keep in mind that WBL isn't some magical allowance that causes gold pieces to pop into existence in a character's wallet, it's a guideline for DMs and based on average values from treasure tables. The only way a flaw could "reduce your WBL" would be by requiring you take a certain proportion of acquired wealth and destroy it somehow...but as one can see from how people finagle VoP, it's possible to get around that by reserving the worst/weakest items for the VoP character, having other characters use items on the VoP character's behalf instead of giving it to them, etc. It's really quite hard to enforce something like that, and it's probably not worth the effort to try.


Vow of Poverty can be considered such a flaw (it does take two feats to get, and does grant bunch of other benefits, but essentially it gives you stuff for permanently setting your WBL to zero -- stuff that, I think, has been established to not be sufficient compensation).

It's not that it's not sufficient, it's that it's suboptimal. You only ever need Big Six-style numerical boosts (and really, you don't even need those, but people like higher success chances), and someone who spent all their WBL on those basic items would be perfectly competent at basic stuff. What VoP makes you miss out on is all the utility stuff, which then screws over your fellow party members who now have to cover for you.

So VoP is kind of a poor comparison, because if it just gave you a certain amount of gold-equivalent that you could freely allocate, it would be better than actual wealth in many cases even if it gave you less WBL overall, because you don't have to find items as treasure, convince the DM to let you buy a very specific item, etc., you just magically get what you want.

So taking all of that into account, I'd say a flaw that reduces WBL really can't be made to work because there are just too many variables and complications involved.


You could have a flaw that reduces starting gold and leaves WBL alone, though. That avoids all those issues: it's limited to level 1, it affects "backstory gold" rather than items found in play, it hits certain classes differently based on their gold dependence at 1st, and there's only so many ways you can get customizing a bunch of mundane gear at 1st level "wrong."

[HouseRules]

The standard price for a magic item that grants a feat is 10,000GP, but obviously that's too much to give at level 1. Maybe you could allow 500-1,000GP to start and the rest in increments over the next 5-10 levels?

Some Feats are worth more, and others worth less.
Trying to linearize two points with rounding.

3.5

Level Feat Average Value
1 1,000 GP
3 4,000 GP
6 7,000 GP
9 10,000 GP
12 13,000 GP
15 16,000 GP
18 19,000 GP


Pathfinder

Level Feat Average Value
1 1,000 GP
3 3,000 GP
5 5,000 GP
7 7,000 GP
9 9,000 GP
11 11,000 GP
13 13,000 GP
15 15,000 GP
17 17,000 GP
19 19,000 GP

[Yogibear41]

Iron Will is worth 3,000 gp :smallsmile:

[Asmotherion]

Iron Will is worth 3,000 gp :smallsmile:

And to be noted: it's both worth it because it allows entry to PrCs and (if not interested) can be chaos shuffled for virtually any feat you want (and meet the pre-reqs).

[ChaosStar]

Well, 3.5 flaws are less well rounded style. They are for more minmaxing.

Look at these three flaws (forgot their names)

+2 Fortitude, -1 Reflex, -1 Will
+2 Reflex, -1 Fortitude, -1 Will
+2 Will, -1 Fortitude, -1 Reflex


Get all three at you are back to square one.
Those aren't flaws. Those are traits.


Hi all.

Not sure if this goes here or in a homebrew section, but still:

There are certain ways to purchase a feat in D&D, either by visiting exotic locations or by purchasing a magic item that gives the benefits of the feat (or grants a feat while it's worn/held/used).

Can a feat be made that would grant a character more gold on generation?
How much could such a feat grant without breaking the game or being entirely useless?
One imagines it would be measured as a fraction of WBL but I'm not sure how much would be appropriate.

On another hand, perhaps a Flaw can be made that makes the character start with less WBL?
Vow of Poverty can be considered such a flaw (it does take two feats to get, and does grant bunch of other benefits, but essentially it gives you stuff for permanently setting your WBL to zero -- stuff that, I think, has been established to not be sufficient compensation).
How much would such flaw reduce the WBL?
There is a feat called Mercantile Background, which gives 300 GP at character creation, you sell stuff for 75% of purchase price instead of 50%, and once a month you can buy something for 75%. Can only be taken by a 1st level character though.