Suggestions for most fun Tier 3-4 class (or non-dip PrCs)

[Willie the Duck]

Hi all, here is the scenario --
A group I've gamed with for a long while had a whole bunch of fun with 3e, although when some of he kinks in the system balance showed up, we drifted over to other games like Fantasy Hero. Well, with enough time away, people are raring to try it again. We're setting up some rules: tier 3-4, roleplay heavy over optimization, most PrCs allowed, but you can't just dip in for the best parts, you have to work at completion (or at least certainly not a level or two of one, then jump into another PrC for the best candy over there, etc.). Much of it will be on the honor system/you know it when you see it threshold for cheeze.

With that in mind, does anyone have suggestions for what is the most fun? Beguiler 1-20 looks relatively pleasant. Duskblade looks like a serviceable gish. Factotum looks like someone with some expertise could make if work. Anyone have any preferences, things they want to suggest, etc.?

Thanks in advance!

[liquidformat]

I would suggest using this tiering system instead: Retiering the classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568771-Retiering-the-Classes-A-new-home) I think it is a bit more accurate.

Totemist is a lot of fun, and I like going barb/totemist/totem rager.
I honestly avoid factotum like the plague it is kind of broken and not in a good way.
Duskblade is fun and solid
psychic warrior is pretty cool
I personally enjoy playing Ranger and Paladin though they do take a decent level of understanding to play well.

Anyways it depends on what type of character you are wanting to build and play. What type of character were you wanting to play?

[ayvango]

Good old warlock is always on board. Could go Unseen Seer route to get more damage.

[tiercel]

A Daring Outlaw build falls into that range (e.g., Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16, Daring Outlaw feat [CS], BAB +19 and full SA progression).

So too would Swift Hunter (Ranger/Scout with likely BAB +19 and full Skirmish and FE progression, and has its own handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html)).

Any 1-20 ToB class, of course.

Heck, Bard 1-20 is pretty tasty and configurable with ACFs, spell and item support.

Agreed on the “what combat role/ability archetype would you like?” question.

[Telonius]

I tend to like trickery-based characters, so something like Bard, Warlock, or social-focused Rogue would be my go-to. If you like thwacking people with heavy bits of metal, Swordsage might be more your speed.

(EDIT: Yeah, Beguiler is way on the high end of Tier 3, if you're using the original Tier System article. 9th-level spells with a selection not as silly as healer; sounds like a Tier 2 to me. You can cobble up Bard to be a Tier 2 if you use enough sources and get it full casting through Sublime Chord, but it sounds like that's not really going to fly in your group).

[Cygnia]

Echoing duskblade.

I've actually enjoyed playing less-loved classes like Healer and Marshal.

[liquidformat]

A Daring Outlaw build falls into that range (e.g., Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16, Daring Outlaw feat [CS], BAB +19 and full SA progression).

a level or 2 of swordsage is great in this build too

Also rogue/assassin is pretty awesome.

[Willie the Duck]

Agreed on the “what combat role/ability archetype would you like?” question.

At this point it is pretty wide open. No one else has come down solidly on anything. If I hear something here that really speaks to me, I can run with it. :smallbiggrin:


I tend to like trickery-based characters, so something like Bard, Warlock, or social-focused Rogue would be my go-to. If you like thwacking people with heavy bits of metal, Swordsage might be more your speed.

(EDIT: Yeah, Beguiler is way on the high end of Tier 3, if you're using the original Tier System article. 9th-level spells with a selection not as silly as healer; sounds like a Tier 2 to me. You can cobble up Bard to be a Tier 2 if you use enough sources and get it full casting through Sublime Chord, but it sounds like that's not really going to fly in your group).

I suspect, given what's been said, that being too good at making things dead will be, although not specifically discouraged, simply wasted potential. There's going to be combat, but it is always just a backdrop that lets people roll dice until the DM gets bored with it.

I agree that the beguiler looks quite good, but it's also the kind of thing where a strong social contract going both ways goes a long way. The DM rewards ingenuity. OTOH, he'd reward a guy who is technically a fighter with no relevant skills doing most of the same things (social and trickery stuff) as a beguiler with both skills and magic support supposedly helping in the effort.

Anyways, thanks for the suggestions, and please keep them coming! :-)

[Particle_Man]

Warlock is dripping with flavour. You sell you soul for power for crying out loud!

Crusader or Warblade into Eternal Blade also works - you are trying to reestablish an ancient order of warriors (and this is for elven definitions of ancient)!

Factotum can be fun for McGyver types.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Seconding the suggestion of Totemist (Magic of Incarnum), and adding that Incarnate from the same system is also pretty cool.

All three of the Tome of Battle classes are oodles of fun. My personal favorite is Crusader. The initiator system the book uses is also noteworthy for playing well with both multiclassing and races that have Racial HD, because it counts half of your HD from other classes/race towards your initiator level (and all of your HD from prestige classes, which is cool).

Also seconding the recommendation for Warlock. All the fun of being a caster, but with so much less bookkeeping.

Speaking of casters, Dread Necromancers from Heroes of Horror are pretty cool. Summoning/animating minions is the obvious way to use the class (fair warning, minionmancy can really bog down gameplay if not handled carefully), but it can also make for a good debuffer, especially by using fear effects. Don't have to be evil, but can't be good. I'll make that my last base class recommendation and move on to...


Prestige Classes:

Necrocarnate from MoI is a funky prestige class for evil characters; it's an incarnum class, but rather than increasing your total essentia, it lets you harvest essentia from dead foes, making for a character that gets stronger as the day goes on. The traditional build is Incarnate 7/ Necrocarnate 13.

Stormsinger is an awesome prestige class for bards. However, it can advance any arcane class, so it's arguably even better for Bard/X multiclasses. My favorite is probably Bard/Warlock/Stormsinger. Stormcaster is a similarly flavored class for more traditional casters (Shugenja makes for a particularly flavorful entry).

If you're doing anything with sailing, check out Dread Pirate (Complete Adventurer) and Legendary Captain (Stormwrack). Also, if you're doing anything with sailing be sure to check out the narrative naval combat rules from Stormwrack; they will make your life much simpler than trying to memorize and account for wind speed, turn radius, and relative speeds on the fly.

I mentioned fear effects up above; if you're interested in those, Dread Witch is the prestige class for you. This class will have even creatures immune to fear fleeing from you in terror.

Last but not least, Weretouched Master is a class that turns you into a werewolf (or werebear, wereboar, werewolverine, etc.). Which is just as awesome as it sounds. Your race has to be Shifter (werebeast lite) to enter, but really, why wouldn't you want to play one of those guys anyway?

[pabelfly]

Binder has pretty cool flavour and lots of options, so it's pretty open as to what you do with it.

[Efrate]

Seconding binder. It oozes more flavor than most anything and rping your bindings in the morning when people can see is awesome. It is a bit underpowered until you get zycrell, which then pushes it into kind of overpowered territory, but it's a blast to play and has fun tricks.

[Particle_Man]

Oh yeah,

Stonechild Warblade can be fun. The racial int bonus synergies nicely with Warblade int bonuses.

[Willie the Duck]

Seconding binder. It oozes more flavor than most anything and rping your bindings in the morning when people can see is awesome. It is a bit underpowered until you get zycrell, which then pushes it into kind of overpowered territory, but it's a blast to play and has fun tricks.

What kind of character would you conceive making with a binder? Both in terms of party role and character role?

[MisterKaws]

Hi all, here is the scenario --
A group I've gamed with for a long while had a whole bunch of fun with 3e, although when some of he kinks in the system balance showed up, we drifted over to other games like Fantasy Hero. Well, with enough time away, people are raring to try it again. We're setting up some rules: tier 3-4, roleplay heavy over optimization, most PrCs allowed, but you can't just dip in for the best parts, you have to work at completion (or at least certainly not a level or two of one, then jump into another PrC for the best candy over there, etc.). Much of it will be on the honor system/you know it when you see it threshold for cheeze.

With that in mind, does anyone have suggestions for what is the most fun? Beguiler 1-20 looks relatively pleasant. Duskblade looks like a serviceable gish. Factotum looks like someone with some expertise could make if work. Anyone have any preferences, things they want to suggest, etc.?

Thanks in advance!

You guys ever heard of the Stormwind Fallacy? Feels like you're just constraining yourselves out of a needless fear. Even if someone optimizes a bit for a fun build, doesn't mean they'll play horribly or destroy the game.

Anyway, the others already said most of it. Binder/Totemist and other such modular classes are the best t3/4, and are especially adaptable. Any class that gets nothing more than "full attack with some cute changes" will get boring pretty fast if you're doing a lot of combat.

[Efrate]

Binder can do tons of things, and change them daily, you adapt to what you need. From minionmancy with tenebreous and zycrell, a mobile skirmisher with paimon, a sneak with malphas, etc. And that's before combining differing vestiges. There are options to be a frontline, a mounted combatant, a healer of sorts, and many more.

[Willie the Duck]

You guys ever heard of the Stormwind Fallacy? Feels like you're just constraining yourselves out of a needless fear. Even if someone optimizes a bit for a fun build, doesn't mean they'll play horribly or destroy the game.

I'm trying to find what in my initial post might have made you come to that conclusion, and I'm not finding it. The notion that we're looking for 'tier 3-4, roleplay heavy over optimization,' suggesting a competition between those two goals, maybe? Or just that we're aiming for t3/4 in general?

Anyways, I think you are mistaken. As I said, we're going by a 'you know it when you see it' threshold, so if someone wants to play outside those lines, but not in a way that would stretch the game past the desired confines, we would entertain the idea.


Anyway, the others already said most of it. Binder/Totemist and other such modular classes are the best t3/4, and are especially adaptable. Any class that gets nothing more than "full attack with some cute changes" will get boring pretty fast if you're doing a lot of combat.

I agree, but what specifically would you propose? Character concept (like, broad thematic: 'the tank,' 'a scoundrel,' 'the skill monkey') and what selections would you choose to facilitate that?

[Psyren]

Binder becomes versatile but is unfortunately pretty awful at early levels (1-7, which could be a long time depending on how your fast campaign levels) when you have just one vestige, few to choose from and no easy ways to switch. Once you have more slots, higher vestiges and more options for both combat and non-combat, it becomes much better, but for me, Binder works best in a multiclass build e.g. Anima Mage/Priest or Hellfire Warlock or KotSS where another class can do the heavy lifting while your vestiges come online. In particular, Binder would have really benefited from the "half-advancement" rule that ToB gets to enjoy where your pact magic continues to advance more slowly while you're putting levels in something else.

Compare to something like Totemist that really only might struggle a tiny bit at level 1 and then is perfectly fine after that, able to handle combat and non-combat roles with relative ease.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I agree, but what specifically would you propose? Character concept (like, broad thematic: 'the tank,' 'a scoundrel,' 'the skill monkey') and what selections would you choose to facilitate that?

I don't know enough about Binders to go into their roles (besides that party face is one of them, through binding Naberius).

Totemists are typically either melee damage (Girallon Arms bound to totem and Sphinx Claws bound to hand are your friends) or ranged damage (mainly through Manticore Belt bound to totem). They also have a decent amount of utility, which can vary wildly from day to day depending on what they bind, but often takes the form of movement options (teleportation, flight, etherealness, etc.). They can also make decent tanks with tripping and defensive soulmelds, but this requires feat investment to be able to trip effectively. Once you hit 8th level you can rebind a soulmeld 1/day, which gives you even more flexibility.

Warlocks are also pretty flexible, though more in potential builds rather than on a day-to-day basis like Totemists. Ranged damage is their default role via Eldritch Blast, but depending on what invocations they choose they can also be melee damage (Eldritch Glaive), debuffers (Sickening Blast/Frightful Blast and Darkness at low level, Noxious Blast at mid and high level), battlefield control with Chill Tentacles and similar, and social (Beguiling Influence is the standout here). Warlocks will be strong at whatever you build them for, and while you can squeeze several of the above roles into one character fairly easily, you can't switch their role every day like incarnum classes or prepared spellcasters can. If you want more flexibility at the expense of a little power, two levels of Chameleon will give you a floating feat that you can reassign each day. Choose a new invocation for yourself each day with Extra Invocation, and during downtime change that feat to an item crafting feat or something.

Bards can be buffers (by boosting Inspire Courage, especially with Dragonfire Inspiration), social, illusionists, enchanters, debuffers (swap Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe and start fear stacking), surprisingly good archers, encyclopedias of monster knowledge... there's a lot they can do. Pick a few, and go to town. To narrow it down, it may help to pick a bard prestige class that seems especially awesome to you, and theme around that (my favorite is Stormsinger, but other cool ones I'm familiar with are War Chanter for buffing/debuffing and Sublime Chord for casting).

[Eldariel]

Swordsages are a ton of fun to play as are Bards. Both are extremely solid classes too.

[MisterKaws]

I'm trying to find what in my initial post might have made you come to that conclusion, and I'm not finding it. The notion that we're looking for 'tier 3-4, roleplay heavy over optimization,' suggesting a competition between those two goals, maybe? Or just that we're aiming for t3/4 in general?

Anyways, I think you are mistaken. As I said, we're going by a 'you know it when you see it' threshold, so if someone wants to play outside those lines, but not in a way that would stretch the game past the desired confines, we would entertain the idea.

The problem here really is: a lot of D&D monsters assume you have those stronger classes(especially Wizards and Clerics), and the only ways around it are either A: UMD with 20 different wands, or B: Optimize those T3/4 classes to high hell. And it really isn't that hard to do both Roleplay and Rollplay. Actually, the weird things you do to fit ten different dips with over five different magic systems make very funny backstories when you try to justify it fluff-wise.


I agree, but what specifically would you propose? Character concept (like, broad thematic: 'the tank,' 'a scoundrel,' 'the skill monkey') and what selections would you choose to facilitate that?

It's easier to offer you suggestions if you have a character concept in mind, rather than give you my opinion on what's the best theme to build around. There's around 30 classes on the T3-4 range, and when you add prestige classes to the mix... Yeah, there's more than a few.

What do you like most: skillmonkeys, tanks, casters? Give us that first, then we can give you nice ideas.

By the way, don't know why no one mentioned it, but Dragonfire Adept is better than Warlock if you want to do area damage+one other schtick, though Warlock would be better if you don't want area damage. Invocation classes are usually limited to two specialties, so you gotta choose well.

[jdizzlean]

warlocks and dfa's can be extremely fun, and both are quite versatile

[skunk3]

Warlocks are my favorite base class hands down and can be played in MANY ways and have loads of room for flexible RP in any direction. They also require basically no notekeeping or paperwork. My favorite part about them is that their invocations are all at will and unlimited so you never have to worry about stuff like spell slots, spell points, etc. They can be useful in social situations, with stealth, with long range blasting, in melee, using magic devices, etc. Unfortunately there aren't too many great prestige classes to take with them but the ones available are fairly potent. (I personally love Eldritch Disciple.)

[Willie the Duck]

The problem here really is: a lot of D&D monsters assume you have those stronger classes(especially Wizards and Clerics), and the only ways around it are either A: UMD with 20 different wands, or B: Optimize those T3/4 classes to high hell.

I think I see where you are coming from. So it is not something I specifically said, but merely you find specifically aiming for T3/4 to be a foolish endeavor? If that's the case, I would tentatively agree... if-and-only-if the DM is not onboard. And in this case, it is an assumed part of the campaign being run. There are clear exceptions where the game is not set up to be without XYZ (other classes not having resurrection, restoration, or the like), and a party with nothing but Beguilers, Rogues, and Factotums is going to have a lot of trouble in 'The Halls of Undead, Constructs and Oozes.' However, in general, no, you do not need to UMD with 20 different wands and optimize those T3/4 classes to high hell, you just lower the bar for challenges you undertake.

And that's the playspace we are looking for. One where the ranger/scout getting a party, mule train, and fragile religious/cultural paraphernalia through rough taiga to a remote location for an important ceremony is the adventure. Or negotiate peace between the local lizardfolk and gnoll tribes. Or one of many other things that simply do not care if you are a level 4 tier 1 party or a level 6 tier 3 party. If we wanted to be fighting devils on the plane of Archeron or the like, we wouldn't optimize T3/4 to high hell, we would simply play T1/2.


And it really isn't that hard to do both Roleplay and Rollplay. Actually, the weird things you do to fit ten different dips with over five different magic systems make very funny backstories when you try to justify it fluff-wise.

I do not discount that this is something one can do. It is not what we are trying to do.



It's easier to offer you suggestions if you have a character concept in mind, rather than give you my opinion on what's the best theme to build around. There's around 30 classes on the T3-4 range, and when you add prestige classes to the mix... Yeah, there's more than a few.

Well, that's the point. I want to hear what other people like to play (in that range), and perhaps a little of what they found fun about their suggested choices. However, since you asked, I do tend to enjoy skillmonkeys or utility casters. Conceptually, the Factotum would be my favorite character, although like others, I only like parts of the actual construction we ended up with.

[MisterKaws]

I think I see where you are coming from. So it is not something I specifically said, but merely you find specifically aiming for T3/4 to be a foolish endeavor? If that's the case, I would tentatively agree... if-and-only-if the DM is not onboard. And in this case, it is an assumed part of the campaign being run. There are clear exceptions where the game is not set up to be without XYZ (other classes not having resurrection, restoration, or the like), and a party with nothing but Beguilers, Rogues, and Factotums is going to have a lot of trouble in 'The Halls of Undead, Constructs and Oozes.' However, in general, no, you do not need to UMD with 20 different wands and optimize those T3/4 classes to high hell, you just lower the bar for challenges you undertake.

And that's the playspace we are looking for. One where the ranger/scout getting a party, mule train, and fragile religious/cultural paraphernalia through rough taiga to a remote location for an important ceremony is the adventure. Or negotiate peace between the local lizardfolk and gnoll tribes. Or one of many other things that simply do not care if you are a level 4 tier 1 party or a level 6 tier 3 party. If we wanted to be fighting devils on the plane of Archeron or the like, we wouldn't optimize T3/4 to high hell, we would simply play T1/2.

If your DM is on board with it and knows the limitations, then that's all good. Moving on:


Well, that's the point. I want to hear what other people like to play (in that range), and perhaps a little of what they found fun about their suggested choices. However, since you asked, I do tend to enjoy skillmonkeys or utility casters. Conceptually, the Factotum would be my favorite character, although like others, I only like parts of the actual construction we ended up with.

There's just so many classes to choose from, I find it easier to recommend something if I know what you like most. And in this case, since you mentioned skillmonkeys, I guess I should double up on Binder and Incarnate. At first glance, they seem pretty terrible at being skillmonkeys, but once you look at the pacts and soulmelds, they're actually very good at it, you could even do both at once, since those two are the most modular classes besides the three martial adepts... of which Swordsage is also a very good ninja/assassin-type skillmonkey. If you get over some of your group's limitations and go into mass-dipping with those three, you'd get a character with quite a bit of diversity without having really anything broken about it.

[LordBlades]

Apart from what people have mentioned so far, Dread Necromancer is also loads of fun if you enjoy minion-based game play.