Which classes fair best (and worst) with no magic item shops

[Quertus]

If all treasure is randomly rolled, no magic item shops of any kind to be had, which classes would people want to take, and which would be lemons?

For example, the Wizard would be unable to purchase new spells, and so would be limited to 2/level, plus what they can research. Worse, if they lost their spell book, they can't just replace it. Yes, there's feats and ACFs to remedy some of these issues, but the base Wizard class gets knocked down a peg or three in this scenario.

What about everyone else? Who's worth taking, and who's a joke?

EDIT: mind you, this prevents you from purchasing the expensive magical components you'd need in order to craft magical items, too. So, to craft items, you'd have to adventure for the components (whatever those are).

[Divine Susuryu]

Considering core classes.

Cleric and especially Druid fare best, as their kit has very little to do with items (outside of DMM persist).

Sorcerer suffers a bit more, but not having reliable Page of Spell Knowledge hurts.

Wizard suffers even more but just needs to make more careful spell selections in order to remain competitive.

Non-full-casters are left a bit in the cold due to their accuracy and defences taking hits with no real recompense.

In conclusion - it nerfs the weakest classes the most and the strongest only a little. The sole example of a relative increase is that of the sorcerer relative to the wizard, and that's only because the wizard is a lot better under normal circumstances

[liquidformat]

Artificer is probably the best choice to have in the party period, who needs a magic shop when an artificer can breakdown all magic items and turn them into what you want instead, including spell scrolls.

Besides that Druid is probably number 1, they can VOP and be just fine hanging out in wild shape all day. For the same reason building a Master of Many Forms or a Primeval can also work great in such a setting.

Cleric, bard, beguiler, sorcerer, and dread Necromancer with pale master to build his armies.

In this case all mundanes are much worse off than any full caster with the exception of building MoMF or Primeval as stated above.

[Elkad]

Wizards work fine without shops. Matter of fact I kinda prefer it that way.

Enemies have spellbooks and scrolls. The DM gets some agency in what spells are in the game, and if there is something you really want, you can always research it.

I'm used to not getting any level-up spells at all (from earlier editions). So when you hit 5th level, you might have only what you've scrounged up prior. Which might be Secret Page, Gentle Repose, and Gaseous Form. Not exactly fight-winners, so you might as well put another Scorching Ray in that slot.

[Quertus]

I'm absolutely accustomed to earlier editions, and random spells. But I've not seen many foes with spell books from which to scrounge 3e. Can anyone comment on spells from modules, or adventure paths?

Afaict, Artificer recycling only helps with XP, not with physical components. So, would the Artificer be nearly useless in this scenario, where they cannot craft anything?

I'm sad that muggles would fare poorly. But is their att/def problems really worse than caster DC/def problems?

[liquidformat]

I'm absolutely accustomed to earlier editions, and random spells. But I've not seen many foes with spell books from which to scrounge 3e. Can anyone comment on spells from modules, or adventure paths?

Afaict, Artificer recycling only helps with XP, not with physical components. So, would the Artificer be nearly useless in this scenario, where they cannot craft anything?

I'm sad that muggles would fare poorly. But is their att/def problems really worse than caster DC/def problems?

not really there are spells like fabricate out there after all...

[Quertus]

not really there are spells like fabricate out there after all...

If what you need to make an item is blue minotaur hide & Dragon bones, and there are no stores that sell such things, I'm not seeing a way to simply Fabricate the required components.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Classes like Dragonfire Adepts or Warlocks can function reasonably well without items. They can live without huge DCs or stats, and have class abilities that let them do almost everything themselves.

I also like the idea of a Vow of Poverty Easy Bake Wizard in such a campaign.

[Godskook]

If all treasure is randomly rolled, no magic item shops of any kind to be had, which classes would people want to take, and which would be lemons?

Almost everyone would be fine, with the exception of builds that rely on particular items to even function up to bare minimums. Classes that "needed" flight according to optimizers will suffer, as will certain Scout/Rogue builds that were overly-reliant on items to proc precision damage. Wizards will be less more-powerful than Sorcerers, but even in a no-item-drops game, they're still better overall.

Artificers and Druids will shine, as their ability to circumvent your premise is particularly notable.

[liquidformat]

If what you need to make an item is blue minotaur hide & Dragon bones, and there are no stores that sell such things, I'm not seeing a way to simply Fabricate the required components.

What is a blue minotaur and what items do I need its hide for?

But seriously, Artificer's have access to wish...

[GrayDeath]

Depends.

If any and all magic Shops are non available it paints a different picture than "magic Mart does not exist, but some random magic Vendors do:

Druid reigns suprmee in both.

Wizards completely get shafted in the first, and only about hlf as much in the second.

Sorcerers rise in comparable power in both, but more in the first.

Clerics are fine, as always.

Truenamers suck even more.

Warlocks become THE CLass in the first case (unless artificers exist, which the nonexistance of amgic marts would speaka gainst) and are at least medium T3 then.

And as usual Martials get shafted the hardest.



Thought a lot about these things, as our recentmost round has a similar mode to the second version mentioned above. While Magic Marts exist, what they actually HAVE is based on the fluff of the ownar or randomness, so planning for magic Items becomes really really hard, but they are still relatively widely available.

[SangoProduction]

Crafting casters are better than everyone. Obviously.
Druids: Rawr Rawr.
Regular casters fair very well. They only tangentially need items to get a bit of a boost.

The solid T3s's like Warlock and Dragonfire Adept may see a slight boost in relevance (even if it's just because martials are moving up to these), but are overall not *as* affected as other classed
Gishes have it relatively hard, since they are partially martial-based, and are more spread thin than regular casters.

Barbarians still hit things really hard. Just not as often and slightly less hard. Unless they optimize. Then they still obliterate the moon in a single charge. Same with Hulking Hurlers.
Monks are...well, they are still monks, and are much lesser characters without the 4 stat boosting items they need, but they've got some inherent scaling without magic items, and can easily take Vow of Poverty and lose very little.
Other Martials don't do anything without magic items.

And of course, Vow of Poverty. If there's nothing to spend the money on, may as well just give that money away, while actually getting at least some benefits.
Except for wizards. They want to spend the money on spell research.

[calam]

Incarnum classes would get a bit of a relative boost as well since they are not that magic item dependant, chakras conflict with item slots and unlike classes like the wizard they can bind any soulmeld that's in the game.

[SangoProduction]

Incarnum classes would get a bit of a relative boost as well since they are not that magic item dependant, chakras conflict with item slots and unlike classes like the wizard they can bind any soulmeld that's in the game.

Oh my gosh. I completely forgot about Incarnum. Man they were so fun. Maybe I'll go back to 3.5 in order to play them.

[Elkad]

I'm absolutely accustomed to earlier editions, and random spells. But I've not seen many foes with spell books from which to scrounge 3e. Can anyone comment on spells from modules, or adventure paths?

I'm not that familiar with the published stuff, but surely there are plenty of arcane scrolls at least.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Incarnum classes already got mentioned; their meldshaping replicates a lot of item effects, partially to compensate for precluding having items on those slots in the first place. In a world without items, this becomes a straight advantage.

Tome of Battle base classes (Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade) rise in power relative to other martials, and (I think) fall in power relative to casters. They have some utility and ability to cover holes in their builds, but not as much as native magic provides.

Prestige classes that 'theurge' (dual progression classes) become more powerful, since in the absence of magic items to cover utility, more class features is more utility and thus more power. Standouts here are probably Ruby Knight Vindicator, Jade Phoenix Mage, Soul Caster/Manifestor, and Sapphire Hierarch. Maybe the Warlock theurges, too.

[MisterKaws]

Almost everyone would be fine, with the exception of builds that rely on particular items to even function up to bare minimums. Classes that "needed" flight according to optimizers will suffer, as will certain Scout/Rogue builds that were overly-reliant on items to proc precision damage. Wizards will be less more-powerful than Sorcerers, but even in a no-item-drops game, they're still better overall.

Artificers and Druids will shine, as their ability to circumvent your premise is particularly notable.

That is very subjective and heavily depends on the sort of enemies the DM is putting against them. Any enemy with Flight would force martials without items to go pew pew with their 1d8+3 bows, at a prohibitively low attack bonus, mind you. Any foe with some sort of supernatural defense that needs to be overcome with magic suddenly is untouchable against martials. Any foe with an incapacitating attack such as medusa and cockatrice are now completely game-destroying and will destroy a martial almost certainly because they don't have saves high enough without magic items.

If all you're doing is putting your players to fight orcs/trolls/dinosaurs/giants day after day, you're probably fine. Put them against a flying demon and they all die because they can't do crap.

[Vizzerdrix]

Collegiate Wizard + using your skin as a tattooed spellbook would cover wizards just fine. Only one critter that I know of would give you trouble, but not a lot. Put the most crucial spells on your skin, everything else in a book.

Ancestral Relic is a thing, with its own rules for improvement of the item. Just feed a dungeon to it every now and then.

Otherwise, I'll parrot everyone else in saying it hurts martials far more than casters.

[Asmotherion]

Non casters suffer the most: Casters still have access to magic wile non casters now have no (guaranteed) access to it.

[Crichton]

Afaict, Artificer recycling only helps with XP, not with physical components. So, would the Artificer be nearly useless in this scenario, where they cannot craft anything?


If what you need to make an item is blue minotaur hide & Dragon bones, and there are no stores that sell such things, I'm not seeing a way to simply Fabricate the required components.



Unless your intention is to effectively also ban crafting, along with your removal of magic item shops, artificers and crafting wizards and such are really not changed in any way.

There are no real rules about using odd, specific components to craft items, or whatnot. Your reference to blue minotaur hides and dragon bones, I assume, is either sarcasm or an unfamiliarity with 3.5's crafting rules, which only make a barely passing reference to the components used in crafting any specific item, and instead just assume that when you craft, you're essentially trading xp, time, feat investments, and gp, for items. WotC's stated intention for the existence of crafting feats was for characters to invest feats to explicitly be able to acquire magic items they couldn't find in their campaign (ie. no magic shops).


If you're gonna make characters who want to craft things not only invest feat slots, xp, time, and gold, but also go on ridiculous fetch quests for components? Yeah no way. That's a hard pass on any and all crafting. Might as well just ban crafting altogether, in addition to your removal of magicmarts, if your intention is to force players to only have the items that you (the DM) want to dole out to them in loot. The whole point of taking crafting feats (and the entire artificer class) is to be able to acquire the items you want, and more cheaply than normal.

[Quertus]

So, martials that don't have good ranged weapons and/or good flying mounts get laughed at even harder than usual. Martials who are not highly optimized, and cannot destroy dragons in a single hit, become even less relevant thanks to DR. People assume that random items will produce no useful magical weapons… any math on this? Incarnum (and Vow of Poverty, and I'll add Sculpt Self) are a bit tastier. No one's mentioned psionics. Most relative power shifts are minimal? And, once Wish comes online, items become available again.

Does that sound like a fair summary?

-----

To clarify my premise, imagine that you were playing Exalted, and the Idea of selling Magic had been slain. In D&D, imagine if an epic spell didn't just remove the concept, it transformed the races into beings incapable of ever grasping the concept again.

So, no one in the setting is capable of conceptualizing selling magical (or psionic, or…) items, spells, services, etc. And, yes, that includes the exotic components of magic items.

[Vizzerdrix]

So, no one in the setting is capable of conceptualizing selling magical (or psionic, or…) items, spells, services, etc.

What about buffing and healing party members? One could say that is a form of transaction. You cast on them in exchange for their killing the things.

[Quertus]

What about buffing and healing party members? One could say that is a form of transaction. You cast on them in exchange for their killing the things.

I could kill the idea of Commerce, of Capitalism, and still expect a mother bear to protect her cub. Same thing here. People can cast spells out of benevolence, or malevolence, or to aid or hinder society, but not commercially, for the concept of gain. If the infernal logic or semantics reeks of a transaction, then it's verboten.

In short, how earlier editions were usually played, IME.

Actually, that may be an easy way of looking at it: what if the 3e developers hadn't decided to commoditize magic, hadn't decided to make "Magic Mart" the defacto

[SangoProduction]

I could kill the idea of Commerce, of Capitalism, and still expect a mother bear to protect her cub. Same thing here. People can cast spells out of benevolence, or malevolence, or to aid or hinder society, but not commercially, for the concept of gain. If the infernal logic or semantics reeks of a transaction, then it's verboten.

In short, how earlier editions were usually played, IME.

Actually, that may be an easy way of looking at it: what if the 3e developers hadn't decided to commoditize magic, hadn't decided to make "Magic Mart" the defacto

...mm...
That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what commerce and capitalism is.
"You do something of value, we give you something of value."
And this could be anything - in this case, that's killing something that's bothering you, in exchange for you giving magical supp-...oh look, they dropped gold. Here take a share.
Nope. No commerce here.


But anyway, on to the main point: You may want to look to 5e. They did away with "Magic Marts" and wealth by level, and all that.

[Crichton]

And, yes, that includes the exotic components of magic items.



That's just it though. In the crafting rules, there are no exotic crafting components, just a gp cost for crafting the item. So what you're saying is not only are you removing the idea of magic marts from your campaign setting, you're also houseruling a (soft) ban on item crafting.

That's a fine houserule for you to have, but I'd say it's only fair to tell your players up front that they probably shouldn't take crafting feats, since they won't really be able to use them as written or intended.


Edit: I should note, I'm speaking from a purely mechanical standpoint of how this is gonna function, not in any way passing judgment on this proposed aspect of your setting.

[Quertus]

But anyway, on to the main point: You may want to look to 5e. They did away with "Magic Marts" and wealth by level, and all that.

Eh, and 5e made a bunch of other changes, too. So, no, this thought experiment is just about making one change to 3e (not "no wealth", which hurts martials disproportionally, but "random wealth", which… ?), and asking how the classes fair.

Now, in 2e, at least, the magic item tables were stacked heavily in the Fighter's favor. So random treasure favored the Fighter. But what about 3e? If the party just gets random treasure (or what the module / adventure path gives), what would that do to class balance?

[Quertus]

That's just it though. In the crafting rules, there are no exotic crafting components, just a gp cost for crafting the item. So what you're saying is not only are you removing the idea of magic marts from your campaign setting, you're also houseruling a (soft) ban on item crafting.

That's a fine houserule for you to have, but I'd say it's only fair to tell your players up front that they probably shouldn't take crafting feats, since they won't really be able to use them as written or intended.


Edit: I should note, I'm speaking from a purely mechanical standpoint of how this is gonna function, not in any way passing judgment on this proposed aspect of your setting.

Shrug. It's how crafting was before 3e. So the "you get what you want" attitude of 3e was implemented by both "abstracted crafting" and "magic item Walmart". Admittedly, people often decry the latter, while ignoring the former, but I was more thorough in this question, removing both sources of choosing your loadout. So, if the 3e design team hadn't made those changes to D&D, and had left the PCs dependent upon random tables (or published modules) for their gear, how would class balance have been different?

Also, I wouldn't say that 2e had a "soft ban" on creating items by requiring the PCs to hunt down components any more than I'd say 2e has a soft ban on casting spells just because of a lack of concentration checks, or spells taking time to cast.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Personally, I would be investing heavily in means to bypass the limitation. Ancestral Relic and enhancing my own body (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook/page11&p=23285432#post23285432) using it would be a good idea. As is the Easy Bake Wizard (or psion, or druid, or...).

If I had to be T3 or below, I'd probably focus on psychic warrior with the soulbound weapon ACF, and maybe some other options that do similar things.

3.5 is good like that.

[ezekielraiden]

Eh, and 5e made a bunch of other changes, too. So, no, this thought experiment is just about making one change to 3e (not "no wealth", which hurts martials disproportionally, but "random wealth", which… ?), and asking how the classes fair.

Now, in 2e, at least, the magic item tables were stacked heavily in the Fighter's favor. So random treasure favored the Fighter. But what about 3e? If the party just gets random treasure (or what the module / adventure path gives), what would that do to class balance?

I don't see how "random" wealth is any better than no wealth. Magic-using classes, particularly full casters, still have 90% or more of their power at their disposal; they lose nice things, to be sure, but (other than *maybe* pages of spell knowledge and pearls of power) nothing "critical" to doing what they already do. Full casters merely have to play more cautiously. Non-caster and low-caster classes (like Paladin) are hosed, as they fundamentally rely on magic armor, magic shields, magic weapons, and magic jewelry to keep their numbers high enough to remain relevant in their designed role. The only way to *not* punish them is to guarantee that some form of these things, even if not optimal picks, is guaranteed to them...but that's a far cry from "random" wealth, it's specifically tailoring the equipment system to reward non-/partial-casters at full-casters' expense. At which point you're using one subsystem to try to patch over the mountainous gulf between "can thoroughly break the laws of physics 20+ times a day" and "must obey a harshly restrictive interpretation of Earth physics 24/7."

[Crichton]

this thought experiment is just about making one change to 3e


Shrug. It's how crafting was before 3e.

Does.Not.Compute. You can't go say you want to make one tiny change to the 3.x system, then in the very next post say you're rolling back the entire crafting system to a previous, very different edition.






Also, I wouldn't say that 2e had a "soft ban" on creating items by requiring the PCs to hunt down components any more than I'd say 2e has a soft ban on casting spells just because of a lack of concentration checks, or spells taking time to cast.

But we're not discussing how 2e did crafting. 2e's take on creating magical items was basically "ask your DM, they'll decide what you need to do(2e DMG pg 84). We're discussing the effect of this change on the 3.x crafting system.

3.x rebuilt the entire crafting system, and central to the 3e system is being able to take the crafting feat for the item category, and that's it; you can now craft any item in that category, no other requirements aside from the listed prerequisites and costs for the item desired. (That's even how they portrayed the feats, in an Ask Wizards article, saying the point of crafting feats was so players could make any items they couldn't find in the world)


Under the 3.x system, forcing players to retrieve random materials makes the crafting feats much, much less attractive/usable, and makes the Artificer's main shtick kinda pointless(sure, you can build a decent character out of an Artificer who doesn't craft, but that's a different discussion).


Again, that's not to say you can't houserule a return to 2e's 'mother may I?' take on crafting, but if that's what you're doing, you really owe it to your players to strongly discourage them from taking crafting feats or becoming an Artificer, since you've made those things all but useless.


All that said, I don't see any real problems, mechanically or thematically, in playing a campaign in a world as you describe, and largely the effects on the various types of classes have been discussed here already. I'm just advocating for not blindsiding your players by nerfing crafting without expressly telling them that's what you're doing.

[Jack_Simth]

If all treasure is randomly rolled, no magic item shops of any kind to be had, which classes would people want to take, and which would be lemons?

For example, the Wizard would be unable to purchase new spells, and so would be limited to 2/level, plus what they can research. Worse, if they lost their spell book, they can't just replace it. Yes, there's feats and ACFs to remedy some of these issues, but the base Wizard class gets knocked down a peg or three in this scenario.

What about everyone else? Who's worth taking, and who's a joke?

EDIT: mind you, this prevents you from purchasing the expensive magical components you'd need in order to craft magical items, too. So, to craft items, you'd have to adventure for the components (whatever those are).

So for practical purposes, no crafting, either.

Hmm.

Well, the game is mostly built around a party of four and 13 encounters per level. So let's roll a few times with an online generator and see what we get out of, say, 13 CR = Party Level encounters for 1-10, to see what equipment the party might have at 11th:
Hoard
Coins 1370 pp, 45270 gp, 144300 sp, 286000 cp
Gems

Alexandrite (400 gp)
2 x Alexandrite (500 gp)
Amber (60 gp)
Amber (110 gp)
Amethyst (100 gp)
Aquamarine (300 gp)
Aquamarine (400 gp)
Aquamarine (500 gp)
Aquamarine (600 gp)
2 x Azurite (8 gp)
2 x Azurite (9 gp)
Banded Agate (9 gp)
Banded Agate (10 gp)
Banded Agate (13 gp)
Black Opal (500 gp)
Black Opal (900 gp)
Black Pearl (200 gp)
Black Pearl (500 gp)
3 x Black Pearl (600 gp)
Black Star Sapphire (1000 gp)
Bloodstone (30 gp)
Bloodstone (40 gp)
2 x Blue Quartz (10 gp)
Blue Sapphire (1000 gp)
Blue Sapphire (1100 gp)
Blue Star Sapphire (1200 gp)
Blue-white Diamond (4000 gp)
Brown Diamond (6000 gp)
Brown-green Garnet (110 gp)
Brown-green Garnet (130 gp)
Carnelian (40 gp)
2 x Carnelian (50 gp)
Carnelian (60 gp)
2 x Chalcedony (60 gp)
Chrysoberyl (110 gp)
Chrysoberyl (140 gp)
2 x Chrysoprase (30 gp)
2 x Chrysoprase (40 gp)
Chrysoprase (80 gp)
Citrine (30 gp)
Citrine (40 gp)
Deep Blue Spinel (800 gp)
Deep Green Spinel (70 gp)
Emerald (600 gp)
Emerald (1300 gp)
2 x Eye Agate (8 gp)
Eye Agate (9 gp)
Eye Agate (14 gp)
Fiery Yellow Corundum (1200 gp)
Fire Opal (1200 gp)
Freshwater Pearl (10 gp)
Golden Pearl (70 gp)
Golden Pearl (90 gp)
Golden Pearl (110 gp)
2 x Golden Yellow Topaz (500 gp)
Golden Yellow Topaz (600 gp)
Hematite (7 gp)
2 x Hematite (11 gp)
2 x Iolite (40 gp)
2 x Iolite (60 gp)
Jade (80 gp)
Jade (100 gp)
Jasper (40 gp)
2 x Jasper (60 gp)
Jasper (80 gp)
Jet (90 gp)
Lapis Lazuli (7 gp)
Lapis Lazuli (9 gp)
2 x Malachite (8 gp)
Malachite (15 gp)
Moonstone (30 gp)
2 x Moonstone (50 gp)
Moss Agate (13 gp)
Obsidian (11 gp)
Peridot (50 gp)
Pink Diamond (6000 gp)
Pink Pearl (60 gp)
Pink Pearl (90 gp)
2 x Pink Pearl (100 gp)
Pink Pearl (110 gp)
2 x Red Garnet (90 gp)
Red Garnet (110 gp)
2 x Red Spinel (110 gp)
Red-brown Spinel (60 gp)
Red-brown Spinel (80 gp)
2 x Red-brown Spinel (90 gp)
2 x Red-brown Spinel (110 gp)
Rhodochrosite (7 gp)
Rhodochrosite (8 gp)
2 x Rhodochrosite (10 gp)
Rich Purple Corundum (800 gp)
Rock Crystal (20 gp)
2 x Rock Crystal (40 gp)
2 x Rock Crystal (50 gp)
Rock Crystal (60 gp)
Rock Crystal (70 gp)
2 x Rose Quartz (50 gp)
Rose Quartz (60 gp)
Rose Quartz (70 gp)
Sardonyx (50 gp)
Sardonyx (70 gp)
Silver Pearl (150 gp)
Smoky Quartz (30 gp)
2 x Smoky Quartz (70 gp)
Star Rose Quartz (20 gp)
2 x Star Rose Quartz (30 gp)
Star Rose Quartz (50 gp)
Star Rose Quartz (80 gp)
Star Ruby (900 gp)
Star Ruby (1100 gp)
Star Ruby (1200 gp)
Tourmaline (120 gp)
Turquoise (9 gp)
Turquoise (10 gp)
Violet Garnet (400 gp)
2 x Violet Garnet (600 gp)
White Opal (900 gp)
White Pearl (90 gp)
White Pearl (120 gp)

Total value = 46609 gp
Art Objects

Bolt of Fine Steel Cloth (500 gp)
Brass Scroll Case set with Moonstone (600 gp)
Carved Ivory Drinking Horn set with Star Rose Quartz (500 gp)
Deck of Ivory Tarot Cards inlaid with Platinum (9000 gp)
Electrum Cloth Hunter's Cap (100 gp)
Electrum Cloth Hunter's Cap (1000 gp)
Ermine Talisman (100 gp)
Feathered Ribbon (10 gp)
Feathered Sash (100 gp)
Fine Steel Cloth Gloves (20 gp)
Fine Steel Dice (pair) set with Hematite (700 gp)
Gilded Wooden Miniature (of a Ship) (100 gp)
Gold Buckle (100 gp)
Gold Longsword inlaid with Silver (3000 gp)
Gold Torc (800 gp)
Iron Belt (10 gp)
Leather Belt with Platinum Buckle (200 gp)
Leather Ribbon (40 gp)
Leather Ribbon (70 gp)
Leopard Fur Corset (800 gp)
Leopard Fur Longsword Scabbard (1600 gp)
Ornate Silver Mirror set with Azurite (600 gp)
Painted Glass Miniature (of a Tower) (80 gp)
Painted Glass Puzzle Box (50 gp)
Pewter Rapier (60 gp)
Platinum Cloth Hunter's Cap (100 gp)
Platinum Warhammer (1700 gp)
Polished Stone Jar (160 gp)
Porcelain Amphora carved with Knotwork (800 gp)
Porcelain Amphora carved with Knotwork (1800 gp)
Rabbit Fur bound Book (blank) (40 gp)
Silver Chime (1000 gp)

Total value = 25740 gp
Mundane Items

Antitoxin (2 doses, 50 gp each)
Average Lock (40 gp)
2 x Banded Mail (Medium) (250 gp)
2 x Breastplate (Medium) (200 gp)
Chain Shirt (Medium) (100 gp)
Darkwood Buckler (Medium) (175 gp)
2 x Darkwood Shield (Medium) (167 gp)
2 x Disguise Kit (50 gp)
Everburning Torch (110 gp)
3 x Full Plate (Medium) (1500 gp)
Good Lock (80 gp)
Half-plate (Medium) (600 gp)
Magnifying Glass (100 gp)
Masterwork Arrows (50, Medium) (302 gp 5 sp)
Masterwork Bastard Sword (Medium) (335 gp)
Masterwork Drums (100 gp)
2 x Masterwork Heavy Crossbow (Medium) (350 gp)
2 x Masterwork Kama (Medium) (302 gp)
Masterwork Lance (Medium) (310 gp)
Masterwork Longsword (Medium) (315 gp)
Masterwork Mandolin (100 gp)
Masterwork Rapier (Medium) (320 gp)
Masterwork Sling (Medium) (300 gp)
Masterwork Studded Leather (Small) (175 gp)
Smokesticks (3 sticks, 20 gp each)
Superior Lock (150 gp)

Total value = 10910 gp 5 sp
Magic Items

Arcane Scroll (Hold Portal (25 gp)) (total 25 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Charm Person (25 gp), Acid Arrow (150 gp)) (total 175 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Summon Monster I (25 gp), Pyrotechnics (150 gp)) (total 175 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Detect Secret Doors (25 gp), Mount (25 gp), Shatter (150 gp)) (total 200 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Magic Aura (25 gp), Acid Arrow (150 gp), Knock (150 gp)) (Requirement curse) (total 325 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Cure Moderate Wounds (200 gp), Magic Mouth (160 gp)) (total 360 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Lesser Confusion (50 gp), Enthrall (200 gp), Web (150 gp)) (total 400 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Magic Aura (25 gp), Vampiric Touch (375 gp)) (Opposite effect or target curse) (total 400 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Darkness (150 gp), Detect Thoughts (150 gp), Disguise Self (150 gp)) (total 450 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Animal Messenger (200 gp), Ghoul Touch (150 gp), Locate Object (150 gp)) (total 500 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Invisibility (150 gp), Resist Energy (150 gp), Stinking Cloud (375 gp)) (total 675 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Eagle's Splendor (150 gp), Resist Energy (150 gp), Heroism (375 gp)) (total 675 gp)
Arcane Scroll (See Invisibility (150 gp), Keen Edge (375 gp), Summon Monster III (375 gp)) (total 900 gp)
Bracers of Defenselessness (1200 gp)
Cloak of Charisma (+4) (16000 gp)
Darkwood Shield (257 gp) (Medium)
Divine Scroll (Detect Poison (12 gp 5 sp)) (total 12 gp 5 sp)
Divine Scroll (Guidance (12 gp 5 sp), Bless Water (50 gp)) (total 62 gp 5 sp)
Divine Scroll (Bear's Endurance (150 gp)) (total 150 gp)
Divine Scroll (Purify Food and Drink (12 gp 5 sp), Entropic Shield (25 gp), Fog Cloud (150 gp)) (total 187 gp 5 sp)
Divine Scroll (Magic Fang (25 gp), Fog Cloud (150 gp), Spiritual Weapon (150 gp)) (total 325 gp)
Dwarven Waraxe (Small) (+1 weapon) (2330 gp)
Dwarven Waraxe (Medium) (+3 weapon) (18330 gp)
Elixir of Love (150 gp) (design provides clue to function)
Heavy Steel Shield (Medium) (+2 shield) (4170 gp)
Heavy Wooden Shield (Medium) (+2 shield) (inscription provides clue to function) (4157 gp)
Horn of Fog (2000 gp)
Necklace of Fireballs (I) (1650 gp)
2 x Oil of Magic Weapon (50 gp)
Oil of Shillelagh (50 gp)
Pipes of Sounding (1800 gp)
3 x Potion of Cure Light Wounds (50 gp)
Potion of Delay Poison (300 gp)
2 x Potion of Fox's Cunning (300 gp)
Potion of Hide from Animals (50 gp)
Potion of Hide from Undead (50 gp)
Potion of Invisibility (300 gp)
Potion of Lesser Restoration (300 gp)
Potion of Magic Fang (50 gp)
Potion of Protection from Evil (50 gp)
Restorative Ointment (4000 gp)
Ring of Blinking (27000 gp)
Ring of Sustenance (2500 gp)
Rod of the Python (13000 gp)
Siangham (Medium) (+1 weapon) (Opposite effect or target curse) (2303 gp)
Wand of Daylight (47 of 50 charges) (4230 gp)
Wand of Invisibility (6 of 50 charges) (540 gp)
Wand of Magic Missile (9th) (7 of 50 charges) (945 gp)
Wand of Shocking Grasp (22 of 50 charges) (330 gp)

Total value = 114889 gp 5 sp
Total value 274409 gp

Lots of scrolls (3rd and lower), lots of potions, four wands, a few rather random items of mixed use, a Cloak of Charisma+4, two +2 Shields, a Rod of the Python (+1/+1 quarterstaff), a +3 dwarven Waraxe, a small +1 dwarven Waraxe, plenty of mundane armor and weapons. Party would be light on saves, light on save DC's, OK on AC and attack rolls, light on damage, light on healing. This does NOT include gear harvested from NPC's - e.g., those guards with +2 Cloaks of Resistance that were standing outside the cult's hideout, or the cult leader that had a +4 Periapt of Wisdom.

As a party, the casters could compensate - Greater Resistance, Magic Vestments, Greater Magic Weapon, and so on would go a long ways - but as long as the NPC's are also not getting custom gear, things might end up surprisingly balanced.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

<Snip>Don't forget that virtually all of that gold, all of those art objects, all of those gems, and all the gear the party isn't actively using might as well be in a dragon's hoard for all it's doing the party any good, since the only real point to having money is to get magic stuff, and the only reason to collect most of the mundane gear is to get money to get magic stuff. Which you no longer can do.

[Vizzerdrix]

Don't forget that virtually all of that gold, all of those art objects, all of those gems, and all the gear the party isn't actively using might as well be in a dragon's hoard for all it's doing the party any good, since the only real point to having money is to get magic stuff, and the only reason to collect most of the mundane gear is to get money to get magic stuff. Which you no longer can do.

I'd use it for hirelings. If ya can't have gear, have swarms of footmen and archers.

[Quertus]

.


Does.Not.Compute. You can't go say you want to make one tiny change to the 3.x system, then in the very next post say you're rolling back the entire crafting system to a previous, very different edition.

But we're not discussing how 2e did crafting. 2e's take on creating magical items was basically "ask your DM, they'll decide what you need to do(2e DMG pg 84). We're discussing the effect of this change on the 3.x crafting system.

3.x rebuilt the entire crafting system, and central to the 3e system is being able to take the crafting feat for the item category, and that's it; you can now craft any item in that category, no other requirements aside from the listed prerequisites and costs for the item desired. (That's even how they portrayed the feats, in an Ask Wizards article, saying the point of crafting feats was so players could make any items they couldn't find in the world)


Under the 3.x system, forcing players to retrieve random materials makes the crafting feats much, much less attractive/usable, and makes the Artificer's main shtick kinda pointless(sure, you can build a decent character out of an Artificer who doesn't craft, but that's a different discussion).


Again, that's not to say you can't houserule a return to 2e's 'mother may I?' take on crafting, but if that's what you're doing, you really owe it to your players to strongly discourage them from taking crafting feats or becoming an Artificer, since you've made those things all but useless.


All that said, I don't see any real problems, mechanically or thematically, in playing a campaign in a world as you describe, and largely the effects on the various types of classes have been discussed here already. I'm just advocating for not blindsiding your players by nerfing crafting without expressly telling them that's what you're doing.

We are discussing 2e - and Exalted - as a way to understand what I mean by this change. The change is that items are random (or set by the adventure path, or…) as opposed to under the players' / PCs' control. This is implemented by the removal of the "magic item Walmart" feel, by the removal of the composition of magic-centric goods and services. And, yes, that includes whatever it is you need to buy in order to make Magic items.


So for practical purposes, no crafting, either.

Hmm.

Well, the game is mostly built around a party of four and 13 encounters per level. So let's roll a few times with an online generator and see what we get out of, say, 13 CR = Party Level encounters for 1-10, to see what equipment the party might have at 11th:
Hoard
Coins 1370 pp, 45270 gp, 144300 sp, 286000 cp
Gems

Alexandrite (400 gp)
2 x Alexandrite (500 gp)
Amber (60 gp)
Amber (110 gp)
Amethyst (100 gp)
Aquamarine (300 gp)
Aquamarine (400 gp)
Aquamarine (500 gp)
Aquamarine (600 gp)
2 x Azurite (8 gp)
2 x Azurite (9 gp)
Banded Agate (9 gp)
Banded Agate (10 gp)
Banded Agate (13 gp)
Black Opal (500 gp)
Black Opal (900 gp)
Black Pearl (200 gp)
Black Pearl (500 gp)
3 x Black Pearl (600 gp)
Black Star Sapphire (1000 gp)
Bloodstone (30 gp)
Bloodstone (40 gp)
2 x Blue Quartz (10 gp)
Blue Sapphire (1000 gp)
Blue Sapphire (1100 gp)
Blue Star Sapphire (1200 gp)
Blue-white Diamond (4000 gp)
Brown Diamond (6000 gp)
Brown-green Garnet (110 gp)
Brown-green Garnet (130 gp)
Carnelian (40 gp)
2 x Carnelian (50 gp)
Carnelian (60 gp)
2 x Chalcedony (60 gp)
Chrysoberyl (110 gp)
Chrysoberyl (140 gp)
2 x Chrysoprase (30 gp)
2 x Chrysoprase (40 gp)
Chrysoprase (80 gp)
Citrine (30 gp)
Citrine (40 gp)
Deep Blue Spinel (800 gp)
Deep Green Spinel (70 gp)
Emerald (600 gp)
Emerald (1300 gp)
2 x Eye Agate (8 gp)
Eye Agate (9 gp)
Eye Agate (14 gp)
Fiery Yellow Corundum (1200 gp)
Fire Opal (1200 gp)
Freshwater Pearl (10 gp)
Golden Pearl (70 gp)
Golden Pearl (90 gp)
Golden Pearl (110 gp)
2 x Golden Yellow Topaz (500 gp)
Golden Yellow Topaz (600 gp)
Hematite (7 gp)
2 x Hematite (11 gp)
2 x Iolite (40 gp)
2 x Iolite (60 gp)
Jade (80 gp)
Jade (100 gp)
Jasper (40 gp)
2 x Jasper (60 gp)
Jasper (80 gp)
Jet (90 gp)
Lapis Lazuli (7 gp)
Lapis Lazuli (9 gp)
2 x Malachite (8 gp)
Malachite (15 gp)
Moonstone (30 gp)
2 x Moonstone (50 gp)
Moss Agate (13 gp)
Obsidian (11 gp)
Peridot (50 gp)
Pink Diamond (6000 gp)
Pink Pearl (60 gp)
Pink Pearl (90 gp)
2 x Pink Pearl (100 gp)
Pink Pearl (110 gp)
2 x Red Garnet (90 gp)
Red Garnet (110 gp)
2 x Red Spinel (110 gp)
Red-brown Spinel (60 gp)
Red-brown Spinel (80 gp)
2 x Red-brown Spinel (90 gp)
2 x Red-brown Spinel (110 gp)
Rhodochrosite (7 gp)
Rhodochrosite (8 gp)
2 x Rhodochrosite (10 gp)
Rich Purple Corundum (800 gp)
Rock Crystal (20 gp)
2 x Rock Crystal (40 gp)
2 x Rock Crystal (50 gp)
Rock Crystal (60 gp)
Rock Crystal (70 gp)
2 x Rose Quartz (50 gp)
Rose Quartz (60 gp)
Rose Quartz (70 gp)
Sardonyx (50 gp)
Sardonyx (70 gp)
Silver Pearl (150 gp)
Smoky Quartz (30 gp)
2 x Smoky Quartz (70 gp)
Star Rose Quartz (20 gp)
2 x Star Rose Quartz (30 gp)
Star Rose Quartz (50 gp)
Star Rose Quartz (80 gp)
Star Ruby (900 gp)
Star Ruby (1100 gp)
Star Ruby (1200 gp)
Tourmaline (120 gp)
Turquoise (9 gp)
Turquoise (10 gp)
Violet Garnet (400 gp)
2 x Violet Garnet (600 gp)
White Opal (900 gp)
White Pearl (90 gp)
White Pearl (120 gp)

Total value = 46609 gp
Art Objects

Bolt of Fine Steel Cloth (500 gp)
Brass Scroll Case set with Moonstone (600 gp)
Carved Ivory Drinking Horn set with Star Rose Quartz (500 gp)
Deck of Ivory Tarot Cards inlaid with Platinum (9000 gp)
Electrum Cloth Hunter's Cap (100 gp)
Electrum Cloth Hunter's Cap (1000 gp)
Ermine Talisman (100 gp)
Feathered Ribbon (10 gp)
Feathered Sash (100 gp)
Fine Steel Cloth Gloves (20 gp)
Fine Steel Dice (pair) set with Hematite (700 gp)
Gilded Wooden Miniature (of a Ship) (100 gp)
Gold Buckle (100 gp)
Gold Longsword inlaid with Silver (3000 gp)
Gold Torc (800 gp)
Iron Belt (10 gp)
Leather Belt with Platinum Buckle (200 gp)
Leather Ribbon (40 gp)
Leather Ribbon (70 gp)
Leopard Fur Corset (800 gp)
Leopard Fur Longsword Scabbard (1600 gp)
Ornate Silver Mirror set with Azurite (600 gp)
Painted Glass Miniature (of a Tower) (80 gp)
Painted Glass Puzzle Box (50 gp)
Pewter Rapier (60 gp)
Platinum Cloth Hunter's Cap (100 gp)
Platinum Warhammer (1700 gp)
Polished Stone Jar (160 gp)
Porcelain Amphora carved with Knotwork (800 gp)
Porcelain Amphora carved with Knotwork (1800 gp)
Rabbit Fur bound Book (blank) (40 gp)
Silver Chime (1000 gp)

Total value = 25740 gp
Mundane Items

Antitoxin (2 doses, 50 gp each)
Average Lock (40 gp)
2 x Banded Mail (Medium) (250 gp)
2 x Breastplate (Medium) (200 gp)
Chain Shirt (Medium) (100 gp)
Darkwood Buckler (Medium) (175 gp)
2 x Darkwood Shield (Medium) (167 gp)
2 x Disguise Kit (50 gp)
Everburning Torch (110 gp)
3 x Full Plate (Medium) (1500 gp)
Good Lock (80 gp)
Half-plate (Medium) (600 gp)
Magnifying Glass (100 gp)
Masterwork Arrows (50, Medium) (302 gp 5 sp)
Masterwork Bastard Sword (Medium) (335 gp)
Masterwork Drums (100 gp)
2 x Masterwork Heavy Crossbow (Medium) (350 gp)
2 x Masterwork Kama (Medium) (302 gp)
Masterwork Lance (Medium) (310 gp)
Masterwork Longsword (Medium) (315 gp)
Masterwork Mandolin (100 gp)
Masterwork Rapier (Medium) (320 gp)
Masterwork Sling (Medium) (300 gp)
Masterwork Studded Leather (Small) (175 gp)
Smokesticks (3 sticks, 20 gp each)
Superior Lock (150 gp)

Total value = 10910 gp 5 sp
Magic Items

Arcane Scroll (Hold Portal (25 gp)) (total 25 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Charm Person (25 gp), Acid Arrow (150 gp)) (total 175 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Summon Monster I (25 gp), Pyrotechnics (150 gp)) (total 175 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Detect Secret Doors (25 gp), Mount (25 gp), Shatter (150 gp)) (total 200 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Magic Aura (25 gp), Acid Arrow (150 gp), Knock (150 gp)) (Requirement curse) (total 325 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Cure Moderate Wounds (200 gp), Magic Mouth (160 gp)) (total 360 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Lesser Confusion (50 gp), Enthrall (200 gp), Web (150 gp)) (total 400 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Magic Aura (25 gp), Vampiric Touch (375 gp)) (Opposite effect or target curse) (total 400 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Darkness (150 gp), Detect Thoughts (150 gp), Disguise Self (150 gp)) (total 450 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Animal Messenger (200 gp), Ghoul Touch (150 gp), Locate Object (150 gp)) (total 500 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Invisibility (150 gp), Resist Energy (150 gp), Stinking Cloud (375 gp)) (total 675 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Eagle's Splendor (150 gp), Resist Energy (150 gp), Heroism (375 gp)) (total 675 gp)
Arcane Scroll (See Invisibility (150 gp), Keen Edge (375 gp), Summon Monster III (375 gp)) (total 900 gp)
Bracers of Defenselessness (1200 gp)
Cloak of Charisma (+4) (16000 gp)
Darkwood Shield (257 gp) (Medium)
Divine Scroll (Detect Poison (12 gp 5 sp)) (total 12 gp 5 sp)
Divine Scroll (Guidance (12 gp 5 sp), Bless Water (50 gp)) (total 62 gp 5 sp)
Divine Scroll (Bear's Endurance (150 gp)) (total 150 gp)
Divine Scroll (Purify Food and Drink (12 gp 5 sp), Entropic Shield (25 gp), Fog Cloud (150 gp)) (total 187 gp 5 sp)
Divine Scroll (Magic Fang (25 gp), Fog Cloud (150 gp), Spiritual Weapon (150 gp)) (total 325 gp)
Dwarven Waraxe (Small) (+1 weapon) (2330 gp)
Dwarven Waraxe (Medium) (+3 weapon) (18330 gp)
Elixir of Love (150 gp) (design provides clue to function)
Heavy Steel Shield (Medium) (+2 shield) (4170 gp)
Heavy Wooden Shield (Medium) (+2 shield) (inscription provides clue to function) (4157 gp)
Horn of Fog (2000 gp)
Necklace of Fireballs (I) (1650 gp)
2 x Oil of Magic Weapon (50 gp)
Oil of Shillelagh (50 gp)
Pipes of Sounding (1800 gp)
3 x Potion of Cure Light Wounds (50 gp)
Potion of Delay Poison (300 gp)
2 x Potion of Fox's Cunning (300 gp)
Potion of Hide from Animals (50 gp)
Potion of Hide from Undead (50 gp)
Potion of Invisibility (300 gp)
Potion of Lesser Restoration (300 gp)
Potion of Magic Fang (50 gp)
Potion of Protection from Evil (50 gp)
Restorative Ointment (4000 gp)
Ring of Blinking (27000 gp)
Ring of Sustenance (2500 gp)
Rod of the Python (13000 gp)
Siangham (Medium) (+1 weapon) (Opposite effect or target curse) (2303 gp)
Wand of Daylight (47 of 50 charges) (4230 gp)
Wand of Invisibility (6 of 50 charges) (540 gp)
Wand of Magic Missile (9th) (7 of 50 charges) (945 gp)
Wand of Shocking Grasp (22 of 50 charges) (330 gp)

Total value = 114889 gp 5 sp
Total value 274409 gp

Lots of scrolls (3rd and lower), lots of potions, four wands, a few rather random items of mixed use, a Cloak of Charisma+4, two +2 Shields, a Rod of the Python (+1/+1 quarterstaff), a +3 dwarven Waraxe, a small +1 dwarven Waraxe, plenty of mundane armor and weapons. Party would be light on saves, light on save DC's, OK on AC and attack rolls, light on damage, light on healing. This does NOT include gear harvested from NPC's - e.g., those guards with +2 Cloaks of Resistance that were standing outside the cult's hideout, or the cult leader that had a +4 Periapt of Wisdom.

As a party, the casters could compensate - Greater Resistance, Magic Vestments, Greater Magic Weapon, and so on would go a long ways - but as long as the NPC's are also not getting custom gear, things might end up surprisingly balanced.

Wow. Link for the online generator?

Gotta say, "surprisingly balanced" was not something i was expecting to hear say this point. Nice to know that the thread is worth thinking about.


Don't forget that virtually all of that gold, all of those art objects, all of those gems, and all the gear the party isn't actively using might as well be in a dragon's hoard for all it's doing the party any good, since the only real point to having money is to get magic stuff, and the only reason to collect most of the mundane gear is to get money to get magic stuff. Which you no longer can do.


I'd use it for hirelings. If ya can't have gear, have swarms of footmen and archers.

Pretty much this. Or getting that Dragon mount. Or a castle. Or some slaves. There's so much one could do with money, even before considering bribes and buying influence, that it would, IMO, be nice to separate "money = magic items", and get people to be inventive again.

[Efrate]

In the random loot you had 3 magic melee weapons, a bunch of low end consumables mostly scrolls which favor casters, and a few shields. One cloak which also favors casters.

So depending on when you get those weapons you have a large portion of your career as a martial where you cannot hurt a lot of cr appropriate foes. You do not have the defenses to be a front line. The weapons are exotic if you want to use them one handed, which means you need to spend a feat you might get 3 levels after you find the weapon to use it one handed. The one simple weapon is two handed as well.

Anything with DR you fight that flys you cannot hurt barring a consumable or a caster helping you.

And there is no dropped gear from npcs if using random loot, all of their loot is included in that list.

A perfect campaign for all caster party to wreck everything. Martials are largely just mediocre buckets of hp, which pack animals do a better job of. And with nothing else to spend your loot on prepare for herding simulator.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... so what is some of the best gear we can bash together under these rules?

[unseenmage]

...And with nothing else to spend your loot on prepare for herding simulator.

So basically minionmancy, yeah?

Diplomacy becomes even better at obviating encounters. It now behooves PCs to know all the languages so they can ask CR appropriate opponents to kindly bugger off. Veeeery politely.

It's a loot, sell, buy, wash , rinse, repeat game and you're asking what happens when you make it incapable of being what it is?
It breaks, duh. Of course it does.

Buying magical stuff is so centric to the game there are multiple books that boil down to magic effects with costs attached.
Just ban the books I guess. And vast quantities of the rest of the books.

At this point the advice to just play a different game becomes pretty relevant.

[Crichton]

We are discussing 2e - and Exalted - as a way to understand what I mean by this change. The change is that items are random (or set by the adventure path, or…) as opposed to under the players' / PCs' control. This is implemented by the removal of the "magic item Walmart" feel, by the removal of the composition of magic-centric goods and services. And, yes, that includes whatever it is you need to buy in order to make Magic items.





That's fine, but you need to frame this to potential players in a way that they understand that they cannot use crafting feats or classes as written, and that they probably shouldn't take them. You're not just removing magic marts, you're inventing a houserule(in opposition to WotC's stated aim of the 3.x crafting system) that crafting now needs specific components. By the normal rules, there are no fancy things you need to buy in order to make items, just a gold amount you need to expend(and a nebulous, fluff text reference to tools or general materials - no indication in that text that the materials are in any way special or unique or difficult to find).

Again, that's all fine, and might make for an interesting campaign setting, but you really need to make absolutely sure that your players know that this is a houserule you have in effect, and that they really ought not pursue crafting, since you're cutting the whole crafting system off at its metaphorical knees.


As you've seen from several responses in this thread, going this route is a major nerf to the power of martials, and only a very minor reduction in caster power. I can't say that I personally think it's a great idea, but it is very much a functional way to go, and it will work fine. It just increases the disparity in power between casters and martials even more, since casters like magic items, but by mid level, martials need magic items, or else they'll rapidly become irrelevant and unable to contribute.

[Quertus]

It's a loot, sell, buy, wash , rinse, repeat game and you're asking what happens when you make it incapable of being what it is?
It breaks, duh. Of course it does.

Buying magical stuff is so centric to the game there are multiple books that boil down to magic effects with costs attached.
Just ban the books I guess. And vast quantities of the rest of the books.

I mean, D&D worked just fine without "sell" and "buy" following "kill & loot" for decades. So, just so we're clear, it's not that D&D breaks, but that 3e may break.

But that's my question: does 3e break? If so, how?

The contention is, without magical gear, you cannot fight things with DR. I'm not so sure. Not all DR is "X/magic" - a lot of it is vs materials. Optimized martials often laugh at "DR 15" when they're dealing hundreds or thousands of damage. Heck, even my war rhino mount probably just considers it a speed bump.

As others have pointed out, there are buffing tactics that - while unavailable to an all-muggle party - would be very useful in overcoming missing some of the "expected" numbers. Which… you could take as a stealth buff (they are more important) or a stealth nerf (they have fewer resources remaining) to casters.

It definitively changes the game. And I suppose we'd need to think through exactly how it changes the game before we can answer my question of how it affects balance.

[Efrate]

Magic dr is exceedingly common. An ubercharger can ignore it mostly, but thats about it. More important is flight. You have no relevant options and it's pretty common for enemies during mid to upper levels to have. You also are more or less tpk by anything incorporeal. Swarms less so but no cheap wands of AoE spells to deal with them.

You have few options to enhance your senses, even something like llv or dv, let alone see invis. You can get scent with a swordsage dip or 2 feats, but that is not ideal for many characters and does force a build path. Ubercharging requires 4 feats generally, and mounted combat if you want to use a mount, which means a lot of juggling or fighter levels. Also how are you getting that rhino mount if you do not start near a place that has them natively? Cannot expect it in ye olde city.

Your saves are going to be well below par, especially on your weak save. Any SoL spell targetting weak saves or with most monster stats will be difficult, and little way to deal wirh fallout. ToB can compensate but it does ok fairly independently of wbl because its the martial fix.

You will need a cleric, and he will be a healbot, which is never a great role to play. They will need to use most their slots just fixing the team, and will never have enough slots because no stat enhancers. You have no easy way to recover so you either play at a snails pace with long downtime between encounters for natural healing which makes multiple adventure scenarios unplayable.

Precision damage dealers lack weapon crystals so are largely ineffective in combat versus giant swathes of monsters, and their only resource for traps is try it and hope, with no easy ways to get bonuses on their checks with lack of items so the moniker of corpse is very real.

[Ryton]

Which… you could take as a stealth buff (they are more important) or a stealth nerf (they have fewer resources remaining) to casters.

It definitively changes the game. And I suppose we'd need to think through exactly how it changes the game before we can answer my question of how it affects balance.

Well, I don't think we can assume players preferences are going to change much going into this kind of scenario, accordingly we shouldn't assume our CODzilla and Batman Wizard players are likely to be willing to suffer a substantial reduction in power by having to buff the rest of the party up into relevancy. Similarly, but on the other side of the scale, players with low tier characters probably won't enjoy the now obvious, necessary intervention of casters to make them able to perform their basic roles.

As stated numerous times on the previous page, it seems like this only widens the mundane/caster gulf, and it would likely drive players to retire mundanes in favor of casters who can fill the same niche. Fighter with shoddy gear? Probably not for long, when they could be a self-buffing cleric doing it all better, and that'd let the original cleric do whatever it was they were hoping to do with the character in there first place. Rogue? Well, according to that randomly roll gear that spanned 11 levels, they'd have a shiny Ring of Blinking, and not much else. They'd probably be much happier, and contributing more, with a Beguiler. Monk? Hopefully the sun has set on Monkday, and they play a druid by now. Seriously though, not one ability enhancing item that helps a monk? Either so dead, or hasn't contributed in combat without significant help in many, many levels. In fact, it hurts to say, but that monk would probably be best served by VOP.

It seems to me that the only parties that this play well for are parties who are actively interested in pursuing cooperative storytelling and are willing to make their characters play far below optimum level to ensure everyone is having the best game experience possible, while also being willing to have their characters story importance vastly overshadowed in the last dungeon by the randomly rolled Rod of Ropes, the true hero of The Chasm of Folly.
But if you're playing with a group like that, you're probably not playing with a group that need these kind of crafting limitations...

[Psyren]

Totemist and Druid work pretty well with few items. Keep in mind that just about everyone needs the Big Six though or the game's math just doesn't work.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A monk dip is a good way for WBL-minimal, Wis-heavy characters to seriously shore up their ACs and saving throws, or with Carmendine Monk, for an Int-heavy one. Yeah, a druid loses out on a level of spellcasting, but having the monk benefits is pretty great for someone who could actually get away with taking VoP.

A 2-level dip in totemist hurts the druid spellcasting more than monk 1 does, but if you're not getting much in the way of magic items anyways...

And gestalt with either or both classes is a great way to help in a game with randomized (or poor) item drops and no ability to procure magic items any other way.

[Quertus]

What kind of item drops do published modules or adventure paths tend to give?

[Vizzerdrix]

Oooh! Fiend of possessions become even better. Shadowsmiths would see play too.

[unseenmage]

Another option is to go through Shax Haversack lists and intentionally play a character who takes NONE of the things.

That should give you a feel for how borked playing this way will be.

[Quertus]

Another option is to go through Shax Haversack lists and intentionally play a character who takes NONE of the things.

That should give you a feel for how borked playing this way will be.

I mean, I probably play that way most of the time, so… business as usual?

So I looked it up, and wow, there's a lot of cool stuff compiled there. Including nonmagical low light / dark vision, nonmagical healing, etc. Yeah, I suspect people would have gotten a lot better at optimizing that kind of thing, were the 3e developers to have kept magic and commerce separate.

[Malphegor]

Warlocks probably do ok. Their higher level ability to go ‘screw the rules, I’m making a magic item I have no way to make by clapping my hands and begging Tinkerbell to let me make this UMD check’ means a lot of harder to obtain items are on the table without shops, they just need a gold mine and presumably materials to build the items.

[Eldariel]

3.5 with random magic items and no crafting would essentially highlight the following classes:
- Druid
- Cleric

Both have access to all their power with zero items and can actually fight without magic items since their spells give them the numbers magic items normally produce. The following classes would also work:
- Wizard (default Wizard would suffer though it would still be a better Sorcerer, but Collegiate Wizard would be hindered as little as Druid/Cleric)
- Sorcerer
- Favored Soul
- Spirit Shaman
- Wu Jen
- Shugenja
- Beguiler
- Psion
- Ardent

All of these classes stand to have a lot to gain from items (more spells/powers known and spell slots/power points, generally), but all of them would be more than solid. Behind them would probably be the likes of:
- Incarnate/Totemist
- Swordsage (better access to magical options through maneuvers helps compared to Warblade and Crusader here though they have the initiator level for Martial Study of course)
- Binder (though post-11 Binder would be top tier with Zceryll)
- Healer
- Warmage
etc.

These classes tend to have significant gains from magic items but they still function without them. Then you begin to get to pure non-caster classes, ****ty semicasters like Divine Soul, Truenamer and company that have glaring weaknesses like lacking flight/teleportation/dispelling/see invisibility/hitting incorporeals/hitting ethereals/detecting skulks/overcoming DR/etc. for most of the game now. And then you have classes like Monk, Ninja, etc. at the very bottom whose only saving grace in WBL no longer reliably helps them do anything. Rogue, Factotum, and many other UMD classes would also suffer though Factotum's innate casting is very nice here. Just very restricted too.

[Psyren]

What kind of item drops do published modules or adventure paths tend to give?

Almost all of them have Big Six, because that's what the game expects you to have. Beyond that it varies.

[Jack_Simth]

Wow. Link for the online generator?

Gotta say, "surprisingly balanced" was not something i was expecting to hear say this point. Nice to know that the thread is worth thinking about.donjon.bin.sh (https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/treasure/)

Also do keep in mind:
By "surprisingly balanced" I'm not saying it makes 3.5 as a whole more balanced. I'm saying that the specific random roll of 13 Standard treasures at each CR of 1-10 both didn't increase the Wizard's save DC and didn't increase the Fighter's saves (no Headband of Intellect, but no Cloak of Resistance either). Things that were lacking were lacking on both of their pairings - little magic armor, but also few magic weapons; little in the way of save boosters, but also little in the way of save DC boosters.

If NPC's suffer from similar equipment handicaps, then PC's vs. NPC's will be about as balanced as it is now.
If NPC's get "big six" equipment, then the first few fights with them will be rough, but afterwards the party will have "big six" equipment too.

When it comes to "vs. monsters" - e.g., DR/Magic or Incorporeal beasties - things are harder, yes. However: When fighting a Shadow at 1st, the Wizard casting Magic Weapon on the Fighter's sword is more spell-efficient than the Wizard casting Magic Missile. Same thing will apply here.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I've played in games like this, and here's what happens: It satisfies the GM's sense of nostalgia for AD&D, annoys the casters, and really screws over the martials. Even when the GM feels like he's giving the players "a lot" of treasure, their effective WBL in terms of actual character abilities/offense/defense is quite low. More specifically in my experience, upon hearing this rule players became concerned they were dealing with an old school "killer" GM and optimized accordingly.

To encourage "creative" use of wealth I prefer one of the many house rules that replace key items (especially the big 6) with inherent abilities. But if you're going to do it the old fashioned way, better to be direct and hand-wave it away at the metagame level than to... slay the concept of commerce.

[Quertus]

I've played in games like this, and here's what happens: It satisfies the GM's sense of nostalgia for AD&D, annoys the casters, and really screws over the martials. Even when the GM feels like he's giving the players "a lot" of treasure, their effective WBL in terms of actual character abilities/offense/defense is quite low. More specifically in my experience, upon hearing this rule players became concerned they were dealing with an old school "killer" GM and optimized accordingly.

To encourage "creative" use of wealth I prefer one of the many house rules that replace key items (especially the big 6) with inherent abilities. But if you're going to do it the old fashioned way, better to be direct and hand-wave it away at the metagame level than to... slay the concept of commerce.

Games? Plural? Multiple groups, multiple GMs?

So, were any of the groups smart enough to buff intelligently and use wealth creatively? Did they bother to learn all the mundane tricks to shore up their weaknesses? What classes did people play? You? Have any cool stories?

[Efrate]

Let's see. Level 1 wizard slots are going to have to be for magic weapon for a long time. With nearly no magic weapons and 4 encounters a day, with 1 free slot most of your career because you won't get more than 6 level one slots ever, and that not until 8th assuming you start with 18 int and solely pump it. Considering you will only probably learn 8 ever level 1 spells, that a large portion of of your loadout that is effectively useless.

You cleric has to keep everyone healed so his slots are all dropped for cure x wounds until he gets heal, so your defining features are strongly limited. Based on 4 encounters a day taking about 1/4 resources.

Your wizard might get away at lower levels with less but assuming the crafting ban extends to consumables you will always want 2 prepped minimum.

With now 4 spells only of every level past 1st, things get tighter. Your 2nd level slots are stat buffs since there is no other way to get them. 3rd is fly x2, dispel magic, and heart of water. 4th gets you polymorph, you will likely want only that. Maybe a dimensional anchor. 5th is teleport, break enchantment, overland flight and maybe permanency. 6th gets you g. dispel And mass stat buffs. amf maybe. And so on.

Assuming you want to play nice with martials. You essentially are forced into becoming your martials buff bot to keep up, like your cleric is healbot until they get high enough level that they can just use heal and not throw most their slots away.

Or, you go do not need a party, ignore all that and lean hard into minionmancy and dmm stuff and be selfish. You will be drastically more effective and actually have choices that benefit you and your team (of minions) and still be able to handle most of the common occurances.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Games? Plural? Multiple groups, multiple GMs?

So, were any of the groups smart enough to buff intelligently and use wealth creatively? Did they bother to learn all the mundane tricks to shore up their weaknesses? What classes did people play? You? Have any cool stories?Multiple GMs and campaigns. All but one of them died out after a few sessions, in part because of chafing at the GM's style. The one good long-running game was good in spite of questionable house rules, and due to a number of factors(*) we couldn't really "spend wealth creatively." I adjusted by taking Collegiate Wizard for spell knowledge, a reserve feat for longevity, and abrupt jaunt for defense. Another player "adjusted" by playing a Druid. I'm not sure what it means to "buff intelligently" in this circumstance. It seems to me that the best general buffs (e.g. Haste) remain so in a game with effectively low wealth. This reminds me that 3.0 might be a better game for this style, when item-replacing spells had much better durations.

(*) Time constraints, limited fungible wealth, the GM not really wanting to RP much commerce. With what resources we had we ended up doing ho-hum things like hiring mercenaries... who die quite quickly in 3e.

[Eldariel]

Let's see. Level 1 wizard slots are going to have to be for magic weapon for a long time. With nearly no magic weapons and 4 encounters a day, with 1 free slot most of your career because you won't get more than 6 level one slots ever, and that not until 8th assuming you start with 18 int and solely pump it. Considering you will only probably learn 8 ever level 1 spells, that a large portion of of your loadout that is effectively useless.

You cleric has to keep everyone healed so his slots are all dropped for cure x wounds until he gets heal, so your defining features are strongly limited. Based on 4 encounters a day taking about 1/4 resources.

Your wizard might get away at lower levels with less but assuming the crafting ban extends to consumables you will always want 2 prepped minimum.

With now 4 spells only of every level past 1st, things get tighter. Your 2nd level slots are stat buffs since there is no other way to get them. 3rd is fly x2, dispel magic, and heart of water. 4th gets you polymorph, you will likely want only that. Maybe a dimensional anchor. 5th is teleport, break enchantment, overland flight and maybe permanency. 6th gets you g. dispel And mass stat buffs. amf maybe. And so on.

Assuming you want to play nice with martials. You essentially are forced into becoming your martials buff bot to keep up, like your cleric is healbot until they get high enough level that they can just use heal and not throw most their slots away.

You assume that the party would have martials. Why? If the game is rigged against them, assume that reasonable players just play casters and ignore dead weight that tags along and leaves them to fend for themselves. If the martials can't provide their basic abilities, focus your abilities on doing the best contribution you can give instead of being a bandaid.

[Efrate]

I agree, hence the post. The strictures present dramatically hurt martials more than anyone. But people like playing martials. Once you take away their toys however it quickly becomes unfun. And no one wants to be a full time sidekick just to keep basic functionality.

[Quertus]

Let's see. Level 1 wizard slots are going to have to be for magic weapon for a long time. With nearly no magic weapons and 4 encounters a day, with 1 free slot most of your career because you won't get more than 6 level one slots ever, and that not until 8th assuming you start with 18 int and solely pump it. Considering you will only probably learn 8 ever level 1 spells, that a large portion of of your loadout that is effectively useless.

You cleric has to keep everyone healed so his slots are all dropped for cure x wounds until he gets heal, so your defining features are strongly limited. Based on 4 encounters a day taking about 1/4 resources.

Your wizard might get away at lower levels with less but assuming the crafting ban extends to consumables you will always want 2 prepped minimum.

With now 4 spells only of every level past 1st, things get tighter. Your 2nd level slots are stat buffs since there is no other way to get them. 3rd is fly x2, dispel magic, and heart of water. 4th gets you polymorph, you will likely want only that. Maybe a dimensional anchor. 5th is teleport, break enchantment, overland flight and maybe permanency. 6th gets you g. dispel And mass stat buffs. amf maybe. And so on.

Assuming you want to play nice with martials. You essentially are forced into becoming your martials buff bot to keep up, like your cleric is healbot until they get high enough level that they can just use heal and not throw most their slots away.

Or, you go do not need a party, ignore all that and lean hard into minionmancy and dmm stuff and be selfish. You will be drastically more effective and actually have choices that benefit you and your team (of minions) and still be able to handle most of the common occurances.

Martial strikes cut through DR (high damage just laughs at it). Jade weapons hit incorporeal creatures. What do we need Magic Weapon for?

Stat boosts are good. 2nd level BFC may be worth slotting, too.

Flying mounts cover fight. Why the other two?

[Crichton]

Martial strikes cut through DR (high damage just laughs at it).


So the gap between ToB classes and 'regular' martial classes becomes even bigger? Just another way this change hurts mundanes more than it does others. (ToB classes aren't casters, but their abilities do replicate some effects that casters can do, but other mundanes can't)



Jade weapons hit incorporeal creatures. What do we need Magic Weapon for?

Citation please? Or are you talking about jade as a material against Shadowlands creatures from Oriental Adventures? Doesn't apply to Incorporeal subtype as a whole.


Flying mounts cover fight. Why the other two?

So you're allowing the full availability to find and purchase or otherwise acquire Flying mounts at players' leisure?

[Quertus]

1)So the gap between ToB classes and 'regular' martial classes becomes even bigger? Just another way this change hurts mundanes more than it does others. (ToB classes aren't casters, but their abilities do replicate some effects that casters can do, but other mundanes can't)




2)Citation please? Or are you talking about jade as a material against Shadowlands creatures from Oriental Adventures? Doesn't apply to Incorporeal subtype as a whole.



3)So you're allowing the full availability to find and purchase or otherwise acquire Flying mounts at players' leisure?

1) any… well, anyone can gain access to maneuvers via feats. They aren't limited to ToB classes.

2) good question (AFB). Pretty sure Jade just hits Incorporeal, period. Playground?

3) yup. Money still has value - just not for buying magic.

[Elkad]

No magic shop (or limited) works fine.

Yes, the DM has to tailor loot somewhat. It's not even a big change. If your fighter is using a scimitar, give the badguy a scimitar instead of a longsword. Throw in a hippogriff nest so they can get some mounts. Etc.

And when you know they can't just sell that Apparatus of Kwalish for a medium pile of cash, or setup and melt down a Daern's Instant Fortress for a thousand cubic feet of Adamantine. (500,000 lbs if it's the same weight as iron, at 300gp/lb is 150million gp), you can give out those cool-but-overpriced items that nobody would ever actually spend gold on.

[AnimeTheCat]

2) good question (AFB). Pretty sure Jade just hits Incorporeal, period. Playground?


Couldn't find any info about Jade, but I found Serren Wood (BoED) adds the ghost touched property to bows, crossbows, bolts, and arrows.

Alternatively, there's always shape soulmeld (crystal helm) and Open Least Chakra (at lvl 6) to give martials the [force] descriptor on all of their attacks, making incorporeals a non-issue, and completely unreliant on magic items for that particular issue.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If it's useful and in demand, someone will be willing to buy it, and someone else will be willing to get paid for it. Magic hits on all counts.

Either there's just no money in the world to pay for magic, magic is so insanely rare that it's considered absolutely priceless, or some seriously epic magic is messing with everyone's minds.

The quickest way to a man's heart is through his wallet, after all.

[unseenmage]

...

The quickest way to a man's heart is through his wallet, after all.

I dare you to buy me stuff to prove that theory.

[Elkad]

After all, if it's useful and in demand, someone will be willing to buy it, and someone else will be willing to get paid for it. Magic hits on all counts.

But it won't be sitting in a shop.

Finding a Large Adamantine +1 Keen Falchion of Speed should be possible. But not easy as popping to the next big city and dropping 50kgp
Either custom order it and wait, or search until you discover a retired Goliath in Faroffistan that wants to sell his leftover adventuring gear and buy an airship to vacation in instead.

Even a bog-standard +1 longsword is likely someone's prize possession. Sure, the captain of the town guard might sell you his, but you have to know he owns it first.


I generally let my players buy whatever in a handwavium fashion. But it still irks me.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But it won't be sitting in a shop.

Finding a Large Adamantine +1 Keen Falchion of Speed should be possible. But not easy as popping to the next big city and dropping 50kgp
Either custom order it and wait, or search until you discover a retired Goliath in Faroffistan that wants to sell his leftover adventuring gear and buy an airship to vacation in instead.

Even a bog-standard +1 longsword is likely someone's prize possession. Sure, the captain of the town guard might sell you his, but you have to know he owns it first.


I generally let my players buy whatever in a handwavium fashion. But it still irks me.I get that, and making such things fit into the world in a way that makes sense is a good thing (unlike the way magic marts do it), but not having magic be buyable at all? Does not compute, especially without something seriously major happening to explain it. Mainly things that alter the entire function of the campaign world.

[AnimeTheCat]

I get that, and making such things fit into the world in a way that makes sense is a good thing (unlike the way magic marts do it), but not having magic be buyable at all? Does not compute, especially without something seriously major happening to explain it. Mainly things that alter the entire function of the campaign world.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again here I guess. When I make my cities, I make sure to stat out each spellcaster to include spells known (for Wizards, Sorcerers, and Bards). Not every city has a wizard, sorcerer, bard, druid, cleric, etc. that is willing or has the personality to be a magic item crafter. Many times, unless there's a mage's tower where there are guild mages, these spellcasters are at odds with each other or in the service of a noble as a court mage, Jester, or other. Clerics are very often in temples and most often are not magic item crafters, though in some particular dwarven cities where religion is highly prized, there are some dwarven clerics who have taken these feats. I bake that in to the lore of my games and put forward the legwork to see what, if any, magic items can be crafted in the city. If they can't be, well then no custom magic items, roll to see if they have what you want (gater information, search, percentile/luck, etc). If not, well maybe you can pick up a tip or something and we'll make a quest out of it. It's tons of work to do, that's why I'm still building one small continent of the world I've been working on for the greater part of 2 years. I have a 1/2 inch binder full of maps, characters, landmarks, governments, etc for every city (and there are TONS of cities). Maybe not for small hamlets, villages, thorps, but anything large village or larger, yep. There are enough people to fill it up with ease. The most important part though is picking, during city generation, what feats and spells the spellcasters have, and that will drive what is or isn't there in a realistic way.

[SLOTHRPG95]

So, people have already touched on relative shift in power of full casters vs. martials, but within the latter group:

Half-casters are hurt more than normal by their MAD-ness, but if you roll really well, you have more use for broadly high stats than other martials, as you can get more value out of your limited magic if you can afford to put a 14+ in Wisdom to start with. This brings Paladins and Rangers back to a pseudo-AD&D state, where you must be "this tall to play" in terms of stats. I guess that was always somewhat true of MAD classes, but the lack of easily available stat boosters makes the problem more severe. With that said, at least the party Paladin can cast Magic Weapon/Bull's Strength/whatever on himself (once or twice a day) without needing a full caster's help.

Magic-weapon classes such as the Soulknife, the OA Samurai, or (including PrCs) the Arcane Archer become... less bad. Not sure it makes the Soulknife playable, but this might be the only sort of campaign where one is even potentially picked. They're still screwed out of utility and tactical movement options due to lack of magic items on demand, but... at least they're not worrying about access to a half-decent magic weapon? If only they had full BAB, like an actual primary combatant.

[elonin]

I've been in gaming situations where the dm denied any arcane scrolls due to the enemies being primarily divine casters. In that game i could access magic item/scroll shops and ended up spending most of my wbl up till 10th on spells (other than basic magic protective gear).

I'm curious how the magic users would change in the rankings if crafting time was denied or especially hard to come by.

[Elkad]

I've been in gaming situations where the dm denied any arcane scrolls due to the enemies being primarily divine casters. In that game i could access magic item/scroll shops and ended up spending most of my wbl up till 10th on spells (other than basic magic protective gear).

I'm curious how the magic users would change in the rankings if crafting time was denied or especially hard to come by.

How limited? Red Hand of Doom is probably the most well known module with time pressure. There are still plenty of days for crafting. Even if you don't succeed at the flying mounts encounter, you can walk everywhere and probably have 15 days or more to spare out of a 50some day adventure. I can stick 40 1st level spells on a scroll in a single day for 500gp. That's a bunch of utility covered.

Even with no time at all (or no supplies, same thing), a Wizard is still tier1 if he has any access to looted/bought scrolls or spellbooks at all. Without those, he'll do something like Domain+Collegiate to get 5+ spells per level at least, and pick carefully. Which is still more than a Sorc has. He's still T1. Did he drop behind Cleric and Druid? Maybe.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I've been in gaming situations where the dm denied any arcane scrolls due to the enemies being primarily divine casters. In that game i could access magic item/scroll shops and ended up spending most of my wbl up till 10th on spells (other than basic magic protective gear).

I'm curious how the magic users would change in the rankings if crafting time was denied or especially hard to come by.

Wizards become less powerful (but are still pretty darn strong) in this sort of situation. Played in a campaign where the DM basically forced me to spend all my WBL on defensive items 'til about 7th level, since his tactics for anything more intelligent than a particularly dim-witted ogre was "obviously they attack the mage first." I tried to defray some of the costs by taking Craft Wondrous Item as soon as possible, which he didn't have a problem with. But then, after I had, he basically said, "yeah you can't switch it now, but basically you're not going to have any downtime to actually use the feat." To top it off, never really encountered any arcane scrolls, nor any NPC Wizards, so my spellbook was pretty much limited to what I got by leveling. Obviously, this is a case where the DM also just doesn't like Wizards, but if I hadn't even been able to buy magical defensive gear at the local city, I would've been dead before I had a chance to pick up Blink or Displacement or the like for my spellbook.