Class Levels on a Dragon?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

I'm curious as to how adding class levels on a Dragon would work -- as far as I'm aware, if the classes added are associated class levels, each level increases the CR by +1. That makes sense, okay.

But, can they just have as many class levels as they do HD? Or are class levels and their RHD different?

If I want to give a Mature Adult Gold Dragon (26HD) class levels, would he have 26 class levels? Or would the class levels, and his HD combine to make his total ECL?

[DrMotives]

Since you said CR, that means this is not a PC, correct? Then class levels on a dragon work the same way as they do for any NPC, you can add whatever you need. There is no set number.

And ECL = RHD, plus class levels, plus LA. You never need to worry about ECL & CR on the same character; ECL is only for PCs, CR is only for NPCs.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Since you said CR, that means this is not a PC, correct? Then class levels on a dragon work the same way as they do for any NPC, you can add whatever you need. There is no set number.

And ECL = RHD, plus class levels, plus LA. You never need to worry about ECL & CR on the same character; ECL is only for PCs, CR is only for NPCs.

Yeah sorry about mixing those up -- he is an NPC in the campaign, and will be horribly OP compared to the party.

So, I can add as many levels as needed, and he would just increase in CR as he gets them, that's okay.

But if he was a character (he isn't, but I would like to know how this works anyway), his RHD, Class Levels, and LA would all be added to find his ECL correct? And Hit Dice from class levels will not advance his size or anything?

[Thurbane]

But if he was a character (he isn't, but I would like to know how this works anyway), his RHD, Class Levels, and LA would all be added to find his ECL correct? And Hit Dice from class levels will not advance his size or anything?

All correct, yes.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

All correct, yes.

Awesome! Thanks for the clarification.

I second guess myself alot with these calculations, and you playgrounders have the answers every time!

[ViperMagnum357]

So, I can add as many levels as needed, and he would just increase in CR as he gets them, that's okay.

But if he was a character (he isn't, but I would like to know how this works anyway), his RHD, Class Levels, and LA would all be added to find his ECL correct? And Hit Dice from class levels will not advance his size or anything?

Correct. ECL = RHD + Class levels + LA, and if constructed as a PC rather than NPC they get rolls or arrays instead of 10's and 11's for ability scores; NPCs get a CR bump for improved ability scores. Dragons only increase their base abilities when they jump age categories through gained RHD, so their size, improved breath weapons, casting, and everything else are not gained when you add class levels. True Dragons are one of the very few critters that gain serious, scaling abilities with their RHD comparable to class features, and usually benefit more from them than from any class levels that do not advance casting.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Correct. ECL = RHD + Class levels + LA, and if constructed as a PC rather than NPC they get rolls or arrays instead of 10's and 11's for ability scores; NPCs get a CR bump for improved ability scores. Dragons only increase their base abilities when they jump age categories through gained RHD, so their size, improved breath weapons, casting, and everything else are not gained when you add class levels. True Dragons are one of the very few critters that gain serious, scaling abilities with their RHD comparable to class features, and usually benefit more from them than from any class levels that do not advance casting.

The Dragon will be a "human" in alternate form, as a bodyguard almost to make sure the Players are doing their job properly on their mission given to them by an ancient wyrm.

[Particle_Man]

Draconomnicon specifically has prestige classes for dragons if you really want to pull out the OP stops.

[Bohandas]

Draconomnicon specifically has prestige classes for dragons if you really want to pull out the OP stops.

Additionally, Dragons of Eberron has premade dragon NPCs with class levels.

[JNAProductions]

The Dragon will be a "human" in alternate form, as a bodyguard almost to make sure the Players are doing their job properly on their mission given to them by an ancient wyrm.

This... This sounds like a bad idea.

Could we get more context? Because this is blaring red flags at me.

[Bphill561]

This... This sounds like a bad idea.

Could we get more context? Because this is blaring red flags at me.

To add some flags, I would recommend an continuous Strength of the True form spell thrown on him (Dragons of Eberron). Might as well give him his full ability scores while in human form...

[StevenC21]

"The human barbarian casts Scintillating Scales"

[ByOdin'sBeard]

This... This sounds like a bad idea.

Could we get more context? Because this is blaring red flags at me.

Yeah this sounds really spongy without context sorry, it's a new group that needs help staying on track, and he isn't THEIR bodyguard -- he is an avatar of the Wyrm that will appear periodically (kinda like how Strahd appears numerous times in Ravenloft) to kill a baddy, and flex on them so they dont run astray.

I don't NEED stats, but I like to know how and why things work, and figured I'd make a sheet for him regardless, incase they do want to try combat in the way later levels.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

This... This sounds like a bad idea.

Could we get more context? Because this is blaring red flags at me.

He wont be against them, but he isn't necessarily with them either; he is going to show up every now and again, and the players will report what has happened, and if they are getting out of hand, they are going to happen upon him slaughtering something decently powerful, hopefully issuing a "don't **** with vibe"

[Saintheart]

He wont be against them, but he isn't necessarily with them either; he is going to show up every now and again, and the players will report what has happened, and if they are getting out of hand, they are going to happen upon him slaughtering something decently powerful, hopefully issuing a "don't **** with vibe"

Okay, so Gandalf to the Fellowship of the Ring, except with hopefully less reincarnation? :smallbiggrin:

[MisterKaws]

I'm curious as to how adding class levels on a Dragon would work -- as far as I'm aware, if the classes added are associated class levels, each level increases the CR by +1. That makes sense, okay.

But, can they just have as many class levels as they do HD? Or are class levels and their RHD different?

If I want to give a Mature Adult Gold Dragon (26HD) class levels, would he have 26 class levels? Or would the class levels, and his HD combine to make his total ECL?

No no, the Dragon HD have no correlation with the class levels. They advance separately. You could have a baby dragon with 20+ class levels, although this goes against the dragon standards of being lazy and just growing into power. This baby dragon could also advance by age at the same time, and in that case it would become quite the powerhouse after it reaches Great Wyrm.

[Mato]

Yeah sorry about mixing those up -- he is an NPC in the campaign, and will be horribly OP compared to the party.

to make sure the Players are doing their job properly on their mission given to them by an ancient wyrm.

if they are getting out of hand, they are going to happen upon him slaughtering something decently powerful, hopefully issuing a "don't **** with vibe"

he is an avatar of the Wyrm that will appear periodically (kinda like how Strahd appears numerous times in Ravenloft) to kill a baddy, and flex on them so they dont run astray.

I don't NEED stats,It sounds like your typical DMPC.

So to echo JNA,

This... This sounds like a bad idea.
Could we get more context? Because this is blaring red flags at me.

I think some advice on DMPCs will be more helpful than how to build a character so here.

DMPC
The DM really wanted to play, and so made a character up. Only now, he's in control, so things tend to go the NPC's way. He will often be min-maxed, but arbitrarily so, as the abilities seem to change with the encounters as they require. This is a Bad NPC - unless he knows how to stay out of the way for most of the time, which usually doesn't happen. Gandalf is often accused of being the only Good DMPC; in reality, Tom Bombadil was more likely the DMPC, and Gandalf was just an overleveled Player Character from another campaign that the DM let play anyway.

Then again, if the DM knows humility and the dangers of Mary Sues, these can be a helpful tool in situations like the following:
* Inexperienced players
* Hendersons
* The players did not discuss what sort of characters they'll be building beforehand, and so the party ends up, for example, without a healer. The key is to not treat them any differently than you would any other player character.
The REAL "Dos and Don't" of DMPCs. (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/5u76c7/the_real_dos_and_donts_of_running_a_dmpc/)