Prediction: An unexpected person will cast the deciding vote in the Dwarven council

[Jornophelanthas]

And that person is Sigdi.

Sigdi!? But she doesn't even have a vote.
Actually, she does, but nobody has realized it yet.

But only the heads of the Dwarven clans in attendance are allowed to cast a vote.
Ah, but I'm betting she actually is the head of a dwarven clan. She created her own clan when she raised the unclaimed dwarven dead to be her new family.

But they can't just be a clan! There must be rules about what constitutes a clan in Dwarven society!
Probably, yes. But I am sure that little details in previous scenes will show that any condition has likely already been met by them.

Okay, I'll bite. Maybe they need to be large enough to qualify as a clan?
Every single one of the dwarves Sigid had raised from the dead started a family of their own, and their number has grown quite large (as shown by the battle scene outside the council hall). Hilgya does not count, but Kudzu does, since Durkon acknowledged him as his son.

But clans are the pillars of dwarven society. Sigdi's little family is not.
Are you sure about that? One of Durkon's aunts owns a silver mine. One of his uncles is a famous bard. His most useless uncle is a hero who died saving his friends from a giant extraplanar wurm. His cousin is an officer in the military. Sigdi herself is a decorated war hero and a major donor of the Church of Thor. And don't forget about Durkon, who is a high-level priest of Thor.
And I'm sure I missed more prominent family members.

But surely they need to be formally recognized by the other clans.
Possibly. But Sigdi happens to be in a room filled with clan elders who can formally recognize Clan Thundershield before Dvalin. Clan elders who are desperate to get another "No" vote against the proposal to end the world.

But a majority of them have been dominated by vampires. Surely those council members will oppose such a proposal.
The dominated elders have only been instructed to vote "Yes" on the main proposal, and to follow spoken instructions given by a vampire. Remove the vampires, and the dominated elders have no reason to oppose any secondary proposal. (In fact, they will probably not move or speak at all.)

I... I can't seem to think of any more objections.
That's nice. Why am I talking to myself anyway?

As a cheap rhetorical vehicle to better argue your point?
Yes, that must be it.

[Hardcore]

No, the vote won't ever happen again in the story. There will be a quick mopp up of the remaining vampires and then off to kragor's tomb. I expect Serini to turn up before getting there Btw.

[Kantaki]

Even assuming a new clan can gain a seat in the Council and further assuming Sigdi and her dinner-buddies qualify, they can't formally decide anything until they get a new table.

Which should take a while.
Finding a oak tree of appropriate size, slaying it, transporting the corpse to a carpenter qualified to work on it, turn the corpse into a table, making sure the table meets the requirements, transporting the table to the Council chamber, gathering the heads of the clans- because like Hel they wait there till the table arrives -all that should take a while.

Enough time to just go up North, beat Xykon to bonedust and shanghai Wrong Eye into resealing the Gates.

[hroþila]

It's very hard to discuss this because what is a clan really. Is it just a sufficiently large and/or powerful family? Is it a family of any size, as long as its members and branches (if any) acknowledge a single head? Does that head need to have any actual power? Do clans need to be acknowledged by an external source of authority?

My impression and my headcanon is that the Thundershields are already a clan whose head is Sigdi. I just think it's a very, very minor clan and thus they wouldn't get a (metaphorical) seat at the council.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, these are the Ancient Founder Clans, the dwarf equivalent of the Mayflower Society.

[Peelee]

Remove the vampires, and the dominated elders have no reason to oppose any secondary proposal.

Or the primary proposal. Your theory relies on an even easier solution. :smalltongue:

[Squire Doodad]

Honestly we'd probably be all over this thread two comics ago but right now its a bit late. We are in the end of the book, and the proposal has already been done away with for the time being.

I guess the clerics trapped at the still undecided Godsmoot all starve to death or something.
What spell could possibly create food and water?

[RatElemental]

Honestly we'd probably be all over this thread two comics ago but right now its a bit late. We are in the end of the book, and the proposal has already been done away with for the time being.

I guess the clerics trapped at the still undecided Godsmoot all starve to death or something.
What spell could possibly create food and water?

Sadly, unless they've got a bard, sorcerer or wizard as a bodyguard or one of the clerics multiclassed, they can't use prestidigitation to make their flavorless spell gruel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm) more appetizing. So I suppose the halflings might starve to death after all.

[Rogar Demonblud]

No they won't. But they'll wish they had.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, for one thing this predication and discussion of it's plausibility already has a thread, and for another the issue is clearly over. Hel's/the vampires plot is about to be foiled, and assuming we even see the new vote, it'll be unanimous against destroying the world.

[Jornophelanthas]

Or the primary proposal. Your theory relies on an even easier solution. :smalltongue:

If the vampires are removed, but the elders' domination does not end, they still have the standing instruction: "Vote yes on the primary proposal."

Of course, if the vampires are slain and it takes until the OotS post-Xykon epilogues to craft a new table, there should be enough time to break the domination (or replace those elders).

Here's another thought:
What if the clan elders decide they want to make sure the meeting will never be continued, to ensure the continued existence of the world? They could extend the number of clans, so that no tree could ever be large enough to fit them all. Clan Thundershield would be a good start.
(Of course, that would condemn all the world's high priests - except Redcloak - to life imprisonment at their respective Godsmoots.)

[Jasdoif]

Sadly, unless they've got a bard, sorcerer or wizard as a bodyguard or one of the clerics multiclassed, they can't use prestidigitation to make their flavorless spell gruel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm) more appetizing.In a pinch, a cleric with the Magic domain could use scrolls or wands of prestidigitation.

[Quebbster]

Wrecan might be able to cast Prestidigitation if we assume he is indeed a Crusader.

[Squire Doodad]

Sadly, unless they've got a bard, sorcerer or wizard as a bodyguard or one of the clerics multiclassed, they can't use prestidigitation to make their flavorless spell gruel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm) more appetizing. So I suppose the halflings might starve to death after all.

"After spending 532 days trapped inside the Godsmoot, the High Priests have escaped. However, 3 confirmed casualties have occurred from the smell ("I only bathe at my house, okay?" says the High Priest of Fenrir) and several of the High Priests have been ushered into support groups to deal with the traumatic stress (the High Priest of Mani has decalred that he is "...done eating gruel, and definitely getting prestidigation with my next level. Sandwiches and a bag of chips are not enough"). Fortunately, the highest ranking clerics available having been supplying medical aid as necessary, and the necessary supply of diamonds for Resurrections is on its way."

[Fish]

There might be a way.

Gontor: I’ll fix you! (casts Make Whole. Table is fixed but Gontor turns to stone)

Sigdi: Looks like ye weren’t a licensed contractor.

Of course, then either a) the last vote is un-suspended and resumes automatically, which is bad, b) the last vote remains suspended until it is moved that the vote be tabled (which is good), c) the last vote remains suspended until it is moved that the vote be resumed (which is bad), d) one of the dominated elders is still dominated and votes to table the vote because she still adheres to Gontor’s last command, since Gontor isn’t technically dead (which is good), or e) the table contains potassium benzoate.

[Peelee]

If the vampires are removed, but the elders' domination does not end, they still have the standing instruction: "Vote yes on the primary proposal."

"Are removed" is a fun term, is the thing. How do you remove them without violating dwarven law?

[Squire Doodad]

"Are removed" is a fun term, is the thing. How do you remove them without violating dwarven law?

Put them in a situation where they are acting against their own beliefs. Like telling them that if they say yes, they will cause hundreds of dwarven street urchins to get free food paid for with the clan member's own coffers.

[The Pilgrim]

The council is over. All the elders noticed the vampires, and noticed that if the vampires wanted them to vote "Yes", the right answer was to vote "No". So, if the voting is ever resumed, the outcome is clear.

[Xyril]

The council is over. All the elders noticed the vampires, and noticed that if the vampires wanted them to vote "Yes", the right answer was to vote "No". So, if the voting is ever resumed, the outcome is clear.

IIRC, it was observed that the dominated outnumbered the non-dominated, which means that the outcome hinges on 1) the dwarves becoming non-dominated before the meeting reconvenes and 2) the rules allowing them to either change votes generally, or at least in the case of this sourt of interruption.

Personally, I like Jornophelanthas' idea of never reconvening in order to indefinitely filibuster the Godsmoot. It seems appropriate given how the Giant has treated overly-Lawfulness in general, and it would appease the dozen or so folks in the other threads who feel that the Godsmoot arc has pretty much run its course.

[Schroeswald]

IIRC, it was observed that the dominated outnumbered the non-dominated, which means that the outcome hinges on 1) the dwarves becoming non-dominated before the meeting reconvenes and 2) the rules allowing them to either change votes generally, or at least in the case of this sourt of interruption.

Personally, I like Jornophelanthas' idea of never reconvening in order to indefinitely filibuster the Godsmoot. It seems appropriate given how the Giant has treated overly-Lawfulness in general, and it would appease the dozen or so folks in the other threads who feel that the Godsmoot arc has pretty much run its course.

They can just have the final dude vote and the good guys have a majority (and the high priests, the bodyguards, Veldrina and Wrecan aren't stuck inside for the next few weeks).

[brian 333]

Thundershield is very likely a Founding Clan, with Grandpappy Thundershield being the last to actually stand on the Council. A once great house which declined due to the excessive heroism of its young members undergoes a renaisance under the leadership of Sigdi.

[Xyril]

They can just have the final dude vote and the good guys have a majority (and the high priests, the bodyguards, Veldrina and Wrecan aren't stuck inside for the next few weeks).

Oh, that's a good point. I was thinking that the vote was fully cast before the meeting was interrupted, but I was wrong about that.


Thundershield is very likely a Founding Clan, with Grandpappy Thundershield being the last to actually stand on the Council. A once great house which declined due to the excessive heroism of its young members undergoes a renaisance under the leadership of Sigdi.

This seems unlikely to me, only because it didn't seem like Sigdi was summoned to the meeting. Remember, this council is the ancient legislature of the dwarves that now remains in a largely ceremonial role. The only reason it still exists at all is out of deference to the rules and to those ancient founding clans. To me, this would suggest that an ancient clan would never lose their place on the council due to declining economic or social status. To me this seems like, I dunno, the House of Lords maybe? The council seems to be all about honoring the ancient lineage of the member clans, even after they decided the the guys doing the actual governing should be picked by slightly different criteria. So I am guessing that the only way to be kicked out of the council would be to do something so dishonorable that it reflects on your entire clan, and I don't see Clan Thundershield doing that.

[The Pilgrim]

They can just have the final dude vote and the good guys have a majority (and the high priests, the bodyguards, Veldrina and Wrecan aren't stuck inside for the next few weeks).

You just pointed out why the Dwarven Council will remain adjourned indefinitely. That way, Dvalin has to wait until the Dwarven Council resumes the voting, which can't happen until the clan elders find and chop down a tree of the required size. Therefore, the High Priests, their bodyguards, and all other participants will remain stuck at the Godsmoot, saving The Giant the trouble of coming with a better reason to prevent them from rushing to the North Pole with the Order of the Stick and easily curbstomp Xykon and Redcloak at the Last Gate.

[Fish]

Therefore, the High Priests, their bodyguards, and all other participants will remain stuck at the Godsmoot, saving The Giant the trouble of coming with a better reason to prevent them from rushing to the North Pole with the Order of the Stick and easily curbstomp Xykon and Redcloak at the Last Gate.
It could be worse. They could all start fighting.

The clerics, the gods, the bodyguards, everybody. When you get a deadlocked meeting and two entrenched sides, you could get lots of crap going down.

[Xyril]

It could be worse. They could all start fighting.

The clerics, the gods, the bodyguards, everybody. When you get a deadlocked meeting and two entrenched sides, you could get lots of crap going down.

As others have stated, it would undermine the main Order v. Xykon conflict to bring in that many big guns, but it would certainly be interesting to have half of the high clerics and the Order there to protect the gate from both destruction and corruption by Redcloak/Xykon, the other half of the clerics there to destroy the gate, and Team Evil there trying to take control of the gate while protecting it from team Hel/Heimdall, all while Thor's clerics are desperately trying to establish a parlay with Redcloak.

[The Pilgrim]

On the other hand, Mending is a 0-level cantrip. Too bad none of the vampire clerics will have prepared it for the day, or they could solve the "problem" on the spot. Elan or any of the dwarven bards can fix the broken table inmediately, though.

So, definitely, the good guys are clearly filibustering on purpose. :smallbiggrin:

[Schroeswald]

On the other hand, Mending is a 0-level cantrip. Too bad none of the vampire clerics will have prepared it for the day, or they could solve the "problem" on the spot. Elan or any of the dwarven bards can fix the broken table inmediately, though.

So, definitely, the good guys are clearly filibustering on purpose. :smallbiggrin:

I believe it’s been mentioned in the main thread but mending can only fix one foot making it useless in this situation (however make whole could be used).

[The MunchKING]

Sadly, unless they've got a bard, sorcerer or wizard as a bodyguard or one of the clerics multiclassed, they can't use prestidigitation to make their flavorless spell gruel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm) more appetizing. So I suppose the halflings might starve to death after all.

If they cared enough, they might have splurged on the money, time, and effort needed to spell research a better version. :smallcool:

[Peelee]

On the other hand, Mending is a 0-level cantrip. Too bad none of the vampire clerics will have prepared it for the day, or they could solve the "problem" on the spot. Elan or any of the dwarven bards can fix the broken table inmediately, though.

So, definitely, the good guys are clearly filibustering on purpose. :smallbiggrin:

Other issues with Mending aside, Elan can't get in there and the bards may not have learned it.

[SlashDash]

I think the fact that the council member mentioned the odds of getting another table soon is silm is an indication that the vote is going to take awhile.

I agree that it also pauses the godsmoot as a good plot point to explain why all the clerics don't rush the final gate to aid or attack Xykon.

However, given that Loki could nudge Hylga in the right direction, I would find it odd why the rest of the gods can't nudge other clerics in one way or another.

Heck, Thrym sent his folks to slow the heroes done.

Actually, wouldn't the god of monsters have some cleric in the last gate that is filled with monsters? Would be hilarious if he had some there and a certain lich killed them.

[GloatingSwine]

On the other hand, Mending is a 0-level cantrip. Too bad none of the vampire clerics will have prepared it for the day, or they could solve the "problem" on the spot. Elan or any of the dwarven bards can fix the broken table inmediately, though.

So, definitely, the good guys are clearly filibustering on purpose. :smallbiggrin:

The table must be of one piece.

A broken table restored with Mending is no longer of one piece, it is two or more pieces which have been joined together.

Even if the join is invisible, the people present will know that it has happened and these are people to whom the explicit letter of the law is paramount (that, after all, is why we are in this position in the first place).