Fun Learning 4e

[Great Dragon]

Ok. Here is your chance to Convince me that the Title is true.

I'll start to (slowly) read through the other Threads in this section.

I'll most likely be editing in lots of (silly) Questions.
Oh, and making comparisons to every other Edition of D&D and making (hopefully Friendly) Grognard comments.

Original Post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593862-How-stronger-would-non-magic-classes-need-to-be-to-allow-broad-non-vancian-magic&p=24067452#post24067452)

You made the claim, so you back it up. For the record this is the reasoning we're using for why 4e is the most balanced:

'All classes use the same resource structure and their damage dealing abilities use the same mechanics, with status effects having standardised durations. Characters also have defined roles that explicitly call out their focus, making trap builds less likely.' (I could go a bit deeper, but it's ten to twelve as I'm typing it.)

No, it's not an attempt to do a tabletop MMO.

It is a skirmish-level miniature wargame, as well as an RPG, but it has very little in common with MMOs. Do people really not look past the Defender/Striker/Leader/Controller setup? Because that's the only bit I can see that's in common with MMOs (it's also in quite a few single player CRPGs, as well as quite a few RTS and TBS games).

Honestly, I have a small list of things I wish had been kept from 4e. Healing Surges are one, Defender/Striker/Leader/Controller is another (Racial Powers are the third). Most of the rest I can leave, they work in 4e but wouldn't in a game with different assumptions, but I've found myself using Healing Surges in my homebrew systems and would use a Defence/Damage/Support/Control setup if I was going something combat related (I haven't for a while).

The problem is that spell scaling is not linear, a 4th level spell is more than twice as powerful as a 2nd level spell (most of the time). Now I can't remember how the official spell point scaling works (I remember it comes out to over 200 points a day at the highest levels), but the problem is that they don't lose anything for that additional versatility. I'd probably argue that if you're moving directly to spell points you have to cut 'mana capacities' to roughly 80% at higher levels, while keeping it equal at higher levels.

No, what I'm saying is that casters need to be taken down in terms of power and versatility. They need less spells (particularly at high levels, not so much at lower levels), and they need to have their power capped at a lower level (I like to suggest 6th level). They don't strictly need to do their spells less often, but they need to not:

Do more things than the mundanes can do.
Do it better than the mundanes.

So while we're on this topic, cards on the table, I hate D&D, and I hate it for exactly this reason. I love playing spellcasters, and D&D makes it feel like I have too much power. My favourite character pulled off about three rituals in the entire campaign (but had some passive abilities they could pull off), and the one I played just after him had three 'effects' he could call on but no more. I adore having to work around awkward rituals, strange components, limited mana, and all those limitations other systems give magicians. I hate that D&D magic is easy, because it ruins that feeling of all your preparation and sessions of setting up candles in various parts of the city finally paying off.

I'll edit comments another time.

I'm a slow learner, since I learn by seeing things done and doing them myself; plus I'm usually stuck on my phone, so please be patient.

[Dimers]

4e is my favorite RPG for several reasons. But I don't think my opinion is something that I can convince you of. People's tastes differ, and it's pretty apparent by this time that most people don't want what 4e offers.

I like the structure of 4e for being clear and well-referenced. Almost every power, feature and feat is crystal clear on how it works. (Yes, there are exceptions, and they are less numerous in the totality of 4e than just the Player's Handbook of 5e.) That means no rules-lawyering, arguments, confusion or retconning to get in the way of enjoying a game.

I like that it conforms best to heroic and cinematic 'reality' rather than real reality. Sometimes, your PC will be awesome because they don't have to bow to the throne of physics. Frequently, the monsters will be more vivid and threatening because they don't have to, either.

I enjoy the lax and approximate skill structure, complemented for OOC stuff by rituals and occasionally powers, because I personally haven't seen gameplay (in any game*) improved by fine-grained adjudication of social exchanges or athletic challenges or research groundwork. Close enough is good enough when there's not a dragon trying to eat your face.

I like that you'd have to actively dis-optimize to make a character that can't contribute to an adventuring group. And simultaneously, I like that optimization can take you well beyond the baseline. I do subscribe to the Snowbluff Axiom.

I love that the DMG discusses different players' styles and desires; it helps a less experienced or less studious DM make the game more fun for everyone including herself.

I like the party orientation of combat. PCs' actions affect other players' choices far more than any other D&D. The interactivity gets everyone more involved, more present -- and it makes the tactical possibilities more interesting when everyone can do so much to change the board and the odds. Plus, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollyanna), and I like to build up goodwill between players.



*Although I have yet to experience the White Wolf ancient Rome system for public-speaking battles. If it works the way it looks to me, it'd be fun and worthwhile, if rather limited in scope.

[Great Dragon]

Anyone know where I can find the 4e SRD?
The only site that i found was obviously a homebrew;
and I want to learn the RAW/RAI, and then convert those into RAF.

@Dimers:
Ah, but see - you're opinion of 4e is actually what I'm interested in, here.

Since I couldn't find anyone wanting to play this Edition (on its own Merritt) with me, I didn't get any of the books, and as such have no understanding beyond very basic ideas of it.
Mostly based on the hype (I wasn't interested in a tMMO), and negative feedback I saw.

Edited in more Comments.



I like the structure of 4e for being clear and well-referenced. Almost every power, feature and feat is crystal clear on how it works. (Yes, there are exceptions, and they are less numerous in the totality of 4e than just the Player's Handbook of 5e.) That means no rules-lawyering, arguments, confusion or retconning to get in the way of enjoying a game.

That would have been nice, though most times I refused to discuss Game Mechanics on Game Day.


I like that it conforms best to heroic and cinematic 'reality' rather than real reality. Sometimes, your PC will be awesome because they don't have to bow to the throne of physics. Frequently, the monsters will be more vivid and threatening because they don't have to, either.

I never did understand why people insist on applying Physics to a Fantasy World.


I enjoy the lax and approximate skill structure, complemented for OOC stuff by rituals and occasionally powers, because I personally haven't seen gameplay (in any game*) improved by fine-grained adjudication of social exchanges or athletic challenges or research groundwork. Close enough is good enough when there's not a dragon trying to eat your face.

I did find a very nice way to quickly resolve Diplomacy/Persuasion, but it would take some time to find it.


I like that you'd have to actively dis-optimize to make a character that can't contribute to an adventuring group. And simultaneously, I like that optimization can take you well beyond the baseline. I do subscribe to the Snowbluff Axiom.

Not sure what that means.


I love that the DMG discusses different players' styles and desires; it helps a less experienced or less studious DM make the game more fun for everyone including herself.

It does seem that the 5e Devs ignored the things they learned from any of the past Editions.


I like the party orientation of combat. PCs' actions affect other players' choices far more than any other D&D. The interactivity gets everyone more involved, more present -- and it makes the tactical possibilities more interesting when everyone can do so much to change the board and the odds.


Plus, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna, and I like to build up goodwill between players.

We could use some more of that type.


*Although I have yet to experience the White Wolf ancient Rome system for public-speaking battles. If it works the way it looks to me, it'd be fun and worthwhile, if rather limited in scope.

Humm, word battles.... interesting.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

4e is probably my favorite edition, for a couple of reasons.

First, as Dimers mentioned, it is incredibly easy to use. You do want to print out all of your powers (or perhaps organize them well digitally); bonus points for making them into little cut out paper cards like the descriptions are designed for.

Second, my play experience with 4e had a really high concentration of 'memorable moments'. The tactical, often movement or cooperation based powers mean it's really easy to pull off a cool trick. Coordinating the team to shove every enemy into the same 5ft campfire, exploiting the terrain to keep enemies moving past the defender if they want to reach you, being the arrow in the knee archer and ruining the boss's adventuring career first turn, lobbing the gnome into suspected ambushes and then teleporting him back out, sliding the paladin back a step so he can charge on his turn... these are all cool tricks that you could probably pull off in any edition of D&D. In 5e I've found these are relatively rare, maybe once a session, and often the loose mechanics of the system made them just not work (or far more trouble than was reasonable). In 3.5, either the party or the DM will probably pull one off most encounters, if you're feeling creative. But in 4e, every character will probably be doing something memorable and cool in every encounter. The easy but varied mechanics, cinematic design, and easy encounter building (from the DM side of things) are all so conducive to these memorable moments.

[OracleofWuffing]

Anyone know where I can find the 4e SRD?
The only site that i found was obviously a homebrew;
and I want to learn the RAW/RAI, and then convert those into RAF.
I dug it up through Archive.org (https://web.archive.org/web/20160201051451/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/welcome), just click the "System Reference Document" link on the right. Don't know what the current location is these days.

Be warned that you probably are not looking for the SRD, as it does not contain RAW/RAI useful for running a game. Allegedly, Wizards viewed the openness of 3.0/3.5's SRD as a detriment to the system, and responded by making 4's SRD incredibly bare bones. In its run, the biggest "mine" of RAW information was probably achived through D&D Insider's Character Builder, Monster Builder, and Rules Compendium which... appears to be still running on its subscription-based service (http://gc.digitalriver.com/store/dndi/html/pbPage.wizards), but I dunno how long or stable that is gonna be. The online version that you can only get through D&DI is a Silverlight application, so running it can be finicky. They don't distribute the offline version directly anymore.

While having a character builder is awesome, it would probably be less investment to pick up used copies of the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide/Rules Compendium, and Monster Manual. The books Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom were part of a... "Not a Reboot" of the system, and were meant for people outside of 4e's base, but had a divisive reception.

[Great Dragon]

@OracleofWuffing: Thanks for the link. It's at least a start.
Ah - it's a PDF. Excellent.

I did some research, and found that there are three PHBs for 4e.
Not sure if I'm going to get all that information off that Archive, but will look.

Right now, I shouldn't need the DMG, unless someone says there are relative information about a Class or Race.
************************************************** **********
Ok, so please treat me a little like a total noob, and go step by step for creating a PC.

Don't focus on Ability Scores
instead just list base numbers. I can add modifiers after.

I'm not going fancy, so say Human. (I'll try to get that info, as well.)


Defender, Striker, Leader, Controller
Then go down the Class List, one at a time.

[Jaeda]

First, you should pick your race and class. Each of the 3 PHBs introduce several of each and contain what you need for those classes (some books, like Arcane Power, provide new options for certain classes, but the PHB 2 and PHB 3 don't really expand on the PHB 1 classes). The PHB1 also includes the rules to the game.

PHB 1 classes: Cleric (divine leader), Fighter (martial defender), Paladin (divine defender), Ranger (martial striker), Rogue (martial striker), Warlord (martial leader), Warlock (arcane striker), Wizard (arcane controller)
PHB 2 classes: Avenger (divine striker), Barbarian (primal striker), Bard (arcane leader), Druid (primal controller), Invoker (divine controller), Sorcerer (arcane striker), Spirit Shaman (primal leader), Warden (primal defender)
PHB 3 classes: Ardent (psionic leader), Battlemind (psionic defender), Monk (psionic striker), Psion (psionic controller), Rune Priest (divine leader), Seeker (primal controller)

Each class has a power source (which usually is a flavor thing but occasionally interacts with things, mostly magic items) and a role (which determines what you are good at doing in combat. So if you want to play a martial character who heals and buffs people, you can be a Warlord. Many of the power source/role combinations exist, although there are some holes. Also, most classes can be backups for one or two roles, depending on the build and powers you pick, but usually not as good as a dedicated member of that role. For example, paladins are secondary leaders and warlocks (especially star-pact) are secondary controllers.

After you pick your race and class, each will give you a list of features that you add to your character. Many classes will also give you a choice of builds to pick such as the pact that a warlock takes. In contrast to 3rd or 5th editions, you get all of your class features at level 1; most of your other customization will come from powers, which you will pick later. You will get additional features when you take your paragon path at level 11 and your epic destiny at level 21.

Now that you have your race and class chosen, you can pick your ability scores. Most classes will favor 1 primary ability score and 2 secondary abilities, although some of them (mostly PHB 1 classes) have 2 primary abilities and 2 secondary abilities. Generally, these three will be the highest ones. Usually you use a point-buy rather than rolling and there is a table of some potential selections.

Next, you can choose your skills. Which and how many you get is determined by your class. You are either trained in a skill or not. Each skill check is based on an ability modifier, adding +5 if you are trained. Each race (except human) also gets +2 to two skills. Humans instead are trained in an additional skill.

You can also compute your HP. Each class has a base number to which you add your Con SCORE (not modifier). Each additional level also gives you a fixed number of HP (not affected by constitution). You can also compute your bloodied value at 1/2 max hp and your healing surge value at 1/4 max hp. Being bloodied (reduce to half hp) doesn't directly do anything, but some abilities are connected to it. You also get a number of healing surges determined by your class and affected by your Con MODIFIER. Hp represents your short-term endurance and surges represent your long-term endurance. Using a surge (either by resting or by a power like a cleric's healing word, lets you recover hp equal to your healing surge value.

Next, we'll choose your powers. At first level, you get 2 at-will (green) attack powers, which you as often as you want; an encounter (red) attack power, which you need to take a short (5 min) rest before you can use again; and a daily (black) attack power, which you need to take an extended (6 hour) rest to recover. You choose each of these from a short list determined by your class. Your class may also give you special feature powers, like the cleric's healing word. Most races also give you a racial power, but humans get an extra at-will attack power instead (unless you use the variant in the errata). You get additional powers when you gain levels.

You also get a feat at 1st level. There is a table of them; make sure that you take a heroic-tier (not paragon or epic-tier) feat and that you meet the prerequisites. Most feats make you better at something that you can already do. You gain additional feats at odd levels.

Next, you can pick your equipment. You get 100 gp to spend on stuff. You should make sure that you pick the best armor that your class is proficient in, the standard adventurers kit, and any other accoutrements that your class needs.

Once you have your armor, you can set your defenses. If you wear light armor, your AC is 10 + Armor + Dex / Int (whichever is better). If you wear heavy armor, it is just 10 + Armor. Shields give you an additional bonus. You'll later get magic armor that gives a bonus to AC.

You also have 3 other defenses, Fort (Str / Con), Ref (Dex / Int) and Will (Wis / Cha). These are 10 + Better Ability + Class Bonus. Shields also give a bonus to reflex. Later, you will get magic amulets or cloaks that give a bonus to these non-AC defenses.

That should give you a good run-down on how to build a character. Be sure to fill out your name!

[Great Dragon]

Keep in mind that I'm stuck on my phone most of the time, so don't have access to major sites or PDFs.
Limited Time on Tablet to access that information.

Remember to show your work, please.
Also, Referencing information needs Book and page number. So I can quickly find that myself. Thanks.

<Cleric Moved !!>

Which didn't really help. The PDF was just a long list of options, but without any explanations for how many I got at level 1, what those options did, or how to use them within the context of the mechanics (Combat, mostly)

Continuing:

Creatures get three actions per turn in combat -- one standard, one move, one minor.
Free actions are unlimited. On other creatures' turns, you can sometimes use an immediate action (once per round) and/or opportunity action (once per turn -- everybody has a better version of 3.5's Combat Reflexes). Most attack powers require a standard action

three at-will attack powers*, one encounter attack, one daily attack and no utilities beyond the class features

Thanks!!

[MeeposFire]

I find going to much into details with someone who does not know the game clouds the point trying to be made so I am just going to say what I find are 4e's strength.

For me the best part of 4e as compared to any other edition is the tactical play. More so than any other edition classes are designed to interact with each other and build off of each other. Your rogue may have an ability that make opportunity attacks made against him fail almost every time and so you may provoke those attacks on purpose to get an enemy to attack you so that your fighter friend makes an extra attack against him. Your warlord friend could give you the ability to move off your turn and could give you an extra attack with bonuses all sorts of potential fun stuff.

Another great thing is that I have found it relatively easy to teach and to play. Making a character is sadly not quite as easy but it is not really any worse than making a 3e character in many ways (though what makes it difficult is not the same but I find the process mostly a wash).

I also found it to be a relatively easy game to DM. The encounter rules work fairly well and the later monsters are relatively easy to use and more fun to fight. The game tends towards giving out less fluff (much like later 3e products) so if you need that I would steal fluff from other editions or games and just port it to the 4e game.

[Beoric]

For me the best part of 4e as compared to any other edition is the tactical play.

This is the primary reason I play 4e. Where a character stands is important. How a character moves is important. How much a character can accomplish in a round is important.

This is true of all characters; all of your character's combat abilities, in terms of powers, items and feats, just vary how you manage those three items (and those three items limit how you can use those powers, items and feats).

I have a player who heavily optimizes and is crap at tactical combat, and another who chooses all of his options for flavour and is a skilled tactician. The skilled tactician regularly fights circles around the optimizer. My particular optimizer still has fun because he has so many buttons to push, but there is no escaping the fact that the game holds more for a person who enjoys and/or is skilled at tactics and strategy.

[Dimers]

Anyone know where I can find the 4e SRD?

Doesn't exist, really. I haven't seen a resource that describes the structure and underlying rules, only ones that tell you what specifics you can drape onto said structure.


Since I couldn't find anyone wanting to play this Edition (on its own Merritt) with me, I didn't get any of the books, and as such have no understanding beyond very basic ideas of it.
Mostly based on the hype (I wasn't interested in a tMMO), and negative feedback I saw.

I didn't see the grotesque ad campaign they used to "promote" 4e, just because I see very little advertising at all. And I joined this forum well after I'd started learning 4e and thus formed my own impressions before hearing it trash-talked. So my introduction was lucky.


Snowbluff Axiom


Not sure what that means.

The GitP user Snowbluff said, basically, "I think games should be unbalanced and exploitable, because that allows games for different preferences and different levels of skill." Solid reasoning, if not especially newbie-friendly.


I did some research, and found that there are three PHBs for 4e.

The only one you'd need to learn the rules is PHB1. Like Jaeda described above, the other player-oriented books (i.e. almost all of them) just give more options. There were some rules changes from what the PHB1 says, all updated in the Rules Compendium, but also in the free pdf listing all errata. The last one produced was August 2014. I can't quickly find a copy online, but if you wanna PM your email address, I can send it to you. The two differences I can think of are a tweak to stealth rules and some changes to gating for once-a-day effects from magic items. Originally, a heroic-tier character (levels 1-10) could only use one daily item power per day, no matter how many toys she had. Later, the cap was removed and item rarity was used to restrict the more abusable items.


The PDF was just a long list of options, but without any explanations for how many I got at level 1, what those options did, or how to use them within the context of the mechanics (Combat, mostly) ...

Referencing information needs Book and page number. So I can quickly find that myself. Thanks.

Yeah. The PHB1 does a good job explaining that. Going into detail here is gonna take quite a while, even ignoring the most common complications like backgrounds and themes. I can add book&page references to my Wall Of Text below if you actually have a PHB to reference ... ?

Creatures get three actions per turn in combat -- one standard, one move, one minor (p267). Free actions are unlimited. On other creatures' turns, you can sometimes use an immediate action (once per round) and/or opportunity action (once per turn -- everybody has a better version of 3.5's Combat Reflexes). See p268 for how those work. Most attack powers require a standard action.

A L1 human cleric has 12 HP plus their Constitution score and a number of daily healing surges equal to 7 plus their Constitution modifier (p60). Healing surges (see p293) represent how much abuse you can bounce back from in a day. Fighters and paladins have more than wizards and rogues, as well as more hit points. Most times that you use a healing surge, you get back 1/4 your hit points. Once you're out of surges, you can only get healing from potions that are both crappy and expensive.

You're trained in the use of simple weapons, moderate armor and the use of holy symbols for implement attacks (p60). Most PC attacks are either weapon or implement; a cleric that emphasizes Strength will mostly use weapon attacks, while a Wisdom-heavy cleric will mostly use implement attacks. (As you look through the powers in the chapter, you'll see the Weapon keyword ones are mostly Strength vs AC and the Implement ones are Wisdom vs F/R/W.) Weapons have a damage die that you however many times the power tells you to -- a dagger only deals d4 per roll, a mace or crossbow would roll d8s, a scythe or greatclub would be 2d4 each time. (See "Weapon Damage Dice" on p276.) Implement damage isn't derived from anything -- the power tells you to roll, say, 2d6 or 1d10 or what-have-you.

Your first-level human cleric automatically gets Divine Fortune and Turn Undead powers and is able to use one or the other each encounter. Turn Undead is a standard action to damage and push undead that are close to you, Divine Fortune gives a dinky bonus to one attack or save but doesn't cost you an action. You can use Healing Word power twice per encounter as a minor action; each time, you or one nearby ally can spend a healing surge and get back an extra d6 HP. That's a nice change from 3.X -- a serious healing power that doesn't tank your action economy. Class features (including Divine Fortune / Turn Undead under "Channel Divinity") on p61, with the powers' mechanics on p62.

Your other class features are a bonus to healing powers (Healer's Lore) and the ability to use slow, expensive noncombat magic (Ritual Casting; pages 298-315 cover this topic). "Slow and expensive" doesn't really sell it, eh? Well, it's the only way to do stuff like divination, raising the dead or removing curses, and you get the ability for free, anyway.

A 1st-level human cleric has three at-will attack powers*, one encounter attack, one daily attack and no utilities beyond the class features (powers-known table is on page 29). You'll learn more as you level up. I won't subject you to dozens of specifics, but you pick powers that accomplish what you want (high damage? control? team bonuses? debuffs?) in the way you've chosen to accomplish it (basically either Wis+implement or Str+weapon).

* A very popular later option lets humans pick a great reactive self-buff to use once per encounter, instead of a third at-will attack. But I'm just working with PHB stuff, here.

You're trained in Religion and four other skills chosen from among Arcana, Diplomacy, Heal, History and Insight (p60, with the concept of class skills explained briefly on p52 and the skill descriptions on p180-189). Most human clerics will have a lot of skills in common, partly because humans get one more training than other races do. (All info on humans is p46-47.)

Your statmods will add to your Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses (see p274-275 for the full rundown). Humans have an additional +1 to each of those, and clerics get +2 Will (p60). Each should be targeted about one-sixth of the time. For your AC defense, targeted about half the time, you're probably best off adding a larger flat number for heavy armor rather than a smaller number plus statmod for light armor (see p212 for why, and p214 to compare chainmail against light armor you're trained in). Only Intelligence or Dexterity would add to lightly-armored AC, and clerics emphasize neither of those.

Finally, you get two feats (nonhumans would only have one). Those are a whole 'nother screed.


Do I choose a Domain? Doesn't seem so, just pick a Deity that fits the desired Role (Leader)?

You do pick a deity, and it does restrict your choosable domains, but the domains don't change anything without spending feats (that's all in the book "Divine Power"). Depending on the DM, patron deity might also restrict which Channel feats you can use, all of which add options in play but conflict with your use of Turn Undead or Divine Fortune. Channel feats are spread throughout the Heroic tier of the feats chapter, p193-201. All the feats with red power blocks are Channel feats.

[Great Dragon]

Thanks, All !!

@Dimers: that is most helpful.

Oh, and my email is [email protected].


Doesn't exist, really. I haven't seen a resource that describes the structure and underlying rules, only ones that tell you what specifics you can drape onto said structure.

That's annoying. But then, WotC having the 3e SRD was said to have undermined their book sales.


I didn't see the grotesque ad campaign they used to "promote" 4e, just because I see very little advertising at all. And I joined this forum well after I'd started learning 4e and thus formed my own impressions before hearing it trash-talked. So my introduction was lucky.

Lucky indeed. Not only did I get all the ads to attract MMO players to the "new" version of D&D plus all the Old Players poo-poo-ing 4e and running to Pathfinder; and I had over $500 worth of 3.x books that I was familiar with;
and like I said, didn't have anyone interested in playing, plus I wasn't interested in doing a tMMO at the time.


The GitP user Snowbluff said, basically, "I think games should be unbalanced and exploitable, because that allows games for different preferences and different levels of skill." Solid reasoning, if not especially newbie-friendly.

Humm. I can agree on exploitable - since that's just being a smart Player; but prefer as much balance with Game Mechanics (at least as close as possible between classes - I'm still working on giving Martials better choices for 5e).


The only one you'd need to learn the rules is PHB1. Like Jaeda described above, the other player-oriented books (i.e. almost all of them) just give more options. There were some rules changes from what the PHB1 says, all updated in the Rules Compendium, but also in the free pdf listing all errata. The last one produced was August 2014. I can't quickly find a copy online, but if you wanna PM your email address, I can send it to you.

Yes, please!


The two differences I can think of are a tweak to stealth rules and some changes to gating for once-a-day effects from magic items. Originally, a heroic-tier character (levels 1-10) could only use one daily item power per day, no matter how many toys she had. Later, the cap was removed and item rarity was used to restrict the more abusable items.

Humm...


Yeah. The PHB1 does a good job explaining that. Going into detail here is gonna take quite a while, even ignoring the most common complications like backgrounds and themes. I can add book&page references to my Wall Of Text below if you actually have a PHB to reference ... ?

I did manage to find someone with an old 4e PHB 1, that I can borrow from time to time, so yes - please include Book and page numbers for ease of looking up


Creatures get three actions per turn in combat -- one standard, one move, one minor. Free actions are unlimited. On other creatures' turns, you can sometimes use an immediate action (once per round) and/or opportunity action (once per turn -- everybody has a better version of 3.5's Combat Reflexes). Most attack powers require a standard action

Not much difference from other versions of D&D.


A L1 human cleric has 12 HP plus their Constitution score and a number of daily healing surges equal to 7 plus their Constitution modifier. Healing surges represent how much abuse you can bounce back from in a day. Fighters and paladins have more than wizards and rogues, as well as more hit points. Most times that you use a healing surge, you get back 1/4 your hit points. Once you're out of surges, you can only get healing from potions that are both crappy and expensive.

Just a flat number of Hit Points?
No Hit Dice to roll each level?

Everyone getting Healing Surges is interesting.


You're trained in the use of simple weapons, moderate armor and the use of holy symbols for implement attacks. Most PC attacks are either weapon or implement; a cleric that emphasizes Strength will mostly use weapon attacks, while a Wisdom-heavy cleric will mostly use implement attacks. Weapons have a damage die that you however many times the power tells you to -- a dagger only deals d4 per roll, a mace or crossbow would roll d8s, a scythe or greatclub would be 2d4 each time. Implement damage isn't derived from anything -- the power tells you to roll, say, 2d6 or 1d10 or what-have-you.

So either melee weapon or Spell.
Not many Ranged weapon options?


Your first-level human cleric automatically gets Divine Fortune and Turn Undead powers and is able to use one or the other each encounter. Turn Undead is a standard action to damage and push undead that are close to you, Divine Fortune gives a dinky bonus to one attack or save but doesn't cost you an action. You can use Healing Word power twice per encounter as a minor action; each time, you or one nearby ally can spend a healing surge and get back an extra d6 HP. That's a nice change from 3.X -- a serious healing power that doesn't tank your action economy.

So far, so good.


Your other class features are a bonus to healing powers (Healer's Lore) and the ability to use slow, expensive noncombat magic (Ritual Casting). "Slow and expensive" doesn't really sell it, eh? Well, it's the only way to do stuff like divination, raising the dead or removing curses, and you get the ability for free, anyway.

I kinda didn't like the spell Remove Curse.
Instantly negating a curse really shouldn't be a thing. Especially since, as the DM, I'll do my best to think of Quest Plots to get rid of the Curse.

If the Player (or Party) isn't interested in doing Quests like that, they can just tell me OoC, and we'll work something out.

A Ritual-based Remove Curse is actually something I'm interested in using for that purpose.


A 1st-level human cleric has three at-will attack powers*, one encounter attack, one daily attack and no utilities beyond the class features. You'll learn more as you level up. I won't subject you to dozens of specifics, but you pick powers that accomplish what you want (high damage? control? team bonuses? debuffs?) in the way you've chosen to accomplish it (basically either Wis+implement or Str+weapon).

I'll have to do some reading to see all the options, and compare differences.



* A very popular later option lets humans pick a great reactive self-buff to use once per encounter, instead of a third at-will attack. But I'm just working with PHB stuff, here.

Well, at least I know.


You're trained in Religion and four other skills chosen from among Arcana, Diplomacy, Heal, History and Insight. Most human clerics will have a lot of skills in common, partly because humans get one more training than other races do.

Check.


Your stat mods will add to your Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses. Humans have an additional +1 to each of those, and clerics get +2 Will. Each should be targeted about one-sixth of the time. For your AC defense, targeted about half the time, you're probably best off adding a larger flat number for heavy armor rather than a smaller number plus stat mod for light armor. Only Intelligence or Dexterity would add to lightly-armored AC, and clerics emphasize neither of those.

That was another thing I saw, and heard lots of compliments on. Being able to choose between two Abilities. Where it was lots easier to just get nice numbers for the three you cared about, and dump the others. I do like that 5e gives more benefits to each Ability, although some (Int) could use a little more love.


Finally, you get two feats (nonhumans would only have one). Those are a whole 'nother screed.

I'll go down that rabbit hole later.


You do pick a deity, and it does restrict your choosable domains, but the domains don't change anything without spending feats. Depending on the DM, patron deity might also restrict which Channel feats you can use, all of which add options in play but conflict with your use of Turn Undead or Divine Fortune.

More research.

[Vhaidara]

The thing with ability scores is that, as you develop system mastery, you can learn to play around with different combinations. Dimers is just going over what the normal associations are, but there's a lot of variety, especially when you get into hybrid classes and the more complete array of powers. Some of the stranger examples I've seen/played. These are going to be fairly exotic, and not builds i recommend to new players, I'm just using them as examples of weird things you can do when you know how to make the system dance
Bard|Druid (Sentinel) running Wis/Con. Bard is normally a Cha based class, but they have some good daily and encounter options that either don't attack (the encounter option) or do their most important parts simply from being used, regardless of hit or miss (in the power's "Effect" line instead of the "Hit" line). This character is actually a beastmaster build, using sentinel's animal companion and druidic summoning dailies in combination with a powerful Con bard Paragon Path to make them properly threatening.
Lazylord: Warlord is normally Str based, but they have a lot of powers that are simply "your ally makes a basic attack". Lazylord is honestly not very GOOD, and is highly reliant on a party that plays nice with it, but it is a workable gimmick build. Personally I prefer the next variant (having played both)
Basiclord: Warlord also has a number of powers that only require the warlord to make a basic attack, which is something very easy to base off of a stat other than Str, and which a lot of hybrid classes work VERY well with. The one I'm currently playing is a Vampire|Warlord who uses warlord powers to enable her allies while she slaps them around with radiant energy (fluffwise she is a fallen angel)

There are also classes that, depending on your power selection, don't really care about their secondary ability score. Most of them, honestly. I've seen Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers who played to Str/Int to take advantage of the racial support offered by Genasi, I've seen warlocks run Dex secondary instead of Int to get a different array of skills, I've seen more Con/Int and Con/Dex Battleminds than Con/Wis or Con/Cha (the second set being their official secondary stats).

The thing I love about 4e though is honestly running it. It is so easy. If I want to be lazy, I can go into a session with a basic storyline planned out, improvise most of it, and run any combats from a couple of buttons and tables to provide the numbers for the monsters (adding in effects as appropriate). A common resource that the group I'm in provides to people who want to try DMing is this (http://blogofholding.com/?p=512). You can run a combat off of that business card. There's a more expanded table that breaks it down into actual numbers for each level and dice+statics for the damage, but this can at least ballpark it.The math mostly takes care of itself. I run for a pretty high op group that tends to use good tactics, so at higher levels I'll up the damage and give the monsters some more gimmicks, but I have actually run an Epic level session for some really optimized characters off of this business card.

[Jaeda]

Just a flat number of Hit Points?
No Hit Dice to roll each level?

Everyone getting Healing Surges is interesting.

Yes, you get a static amount of hit points. Hit points are your short-term (encounter level) endurance and healing surges are your long-term (daily) endurance.


So either melee weapon or Spell.
Not many Ranged weapon options?

No clerics don't get very many powers that work with ranged weapons. Other clases, like ranger and rogue do. As a cleric, you are expected to be using your implement powers for ranged attacks or to make basic attacks with a javelin (if you are a Str-based cleric).

Most of the non-combat spells like teleport, raise dead, and sending are now rituals, and all rituals have longer cast times and costly material components, which helps keep them from being over-used. I also really like using teleportation circle as a mid heroic ritual and keeping teleport as an epic-tier one since it gives you a more straightforward use case of cutting out overland travel between places you've visited without the headaches of being able to teleport into the villain's sanctum.

It is worth mentioning that you get two channel divinity powers (turn undead and divine fortune), but they both key off the same resource, so using one also expends the other. If you add one with your god's channel divinity feat (like armor of Bahamut), this likewise also expends your channel divinity.


I also found it to be a relatively easy game to DM. The encounter rules work fairly well and the later monsters are relatively easy to use and more fun to fight. The game tends towards giving out less fluff (much like later 3e products) so if you need that I would steal fluff from other editions or games and just port it to the 4e game.

This. I was a little iffy on 4e when starting out, but after I started DMing it, I knew I wasn't going to go back to 3e, and probably my biggest disappointment from running 5e. Each monster has everything you need to know right there and it is really easy to combine several monsters together for an encounter, unlike 3e and 5e where you need to look up the spells that the monster carries and single monsters is the default.

[Dimers]

I did manage to find someone with an old 4e PHB 1, that I can borrow from time to time, so yes - please include Book and page numbers for ease of looking up

I've edited page references into my Wall Of Text in bold.

[Great Dragon]

@Jaeda: Some of those spells as Rituals might be something I add to my 5e game.

Something to ponder.


I've edited page references into my Wall Of Text in bold.

Thanks!!

[Dimers]

Some of those spells as Rituals might be something I add to my 5e game.

On a related note, check out 3.5's "incantations" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) if you're not familiar with them already. Like 4e rituals, incantations use money and skills to activate specific magic that anyone can potentially use, caster or non-.

Ooh, note to self, a ritual casting boost could be a good Skill Trick ...

[HouseRules]

Hit Points

4E = Constitution at Level 1 + Maximized Hit Dice Every Level
This Constitution at Level 1 is practically the same as an extra d10 (or d11 for odd constitution scores)

3E/PF = Maximized 1st Hit Dice + Half Round Up Other Hit Dice

NPC Abilities

4E: NPCs with Class Levels only keep the 4 highest levels of each category of AEDU abilities, players keep all that they gain through leveling up.
Thus, players have more Encounter and Daily abilities that are useful, and those extra At-will abilities are too low level to be useful.
Thus, for the same level, NPCs are always weaker than PCs, unless you go Elite or Solo.

3E: NPCs with Class Levels are built to the same rules as PCs so they are stronger with special reduced Challenge Rating effects if possible.
There are ways to reduce Challenge Rating relative to Effective Character Level, making NPCs "stronger" than PCs.

Minion, Regular, Elite, and Solo

Minions gives ¼× experience, and immune to automatic damage on missed. However, they only have 1 hit points.

Regulars gives normal experience, and typically four of them at the same level as the player would give 50:50 change.

Elite gives 2× experience, and have double hit points.

Solo gives 4× experience, however, heroic have 4× hit points, paragon have 5× hit points, and epic have 6× hit points!
Thus, it is harder the higher you go when fighting Solos.

Experience

4E: follows the preferred number sequence of 4, 5, 6, 7, and double every 4th level.
Balanced to level up every 10 balanced encounters or equivalent.

3E/PF: follows the preferred number sequence of 2, 3, and double every 2nd (aka even) level.
Go look up level independent experience in unearthed arcana for 3.5 version; the exception to preferred number is at level 1 where a character needs 1000 xp and level 2 needs 2000 xp, skipping a 1500 xp level between level 1 and level 2.
Balance to level up every 40/3 balanced encounters or equivalent; it's actually closer to 14 more often than ⅔'s of the time.
For medium xp in pathfinder, level up every 20 balanced encounter or equivalent.
For slow xp in pathfinder, level up every 30 balanced encounter or equivalent.

AD&D: follows the geometric series of double every level
Balanced to level up every 100 balanced encounters or equivalent (without treasure xp) (varies by classes, some need more and others need less)
Exception: from level 1 to 2, 200 encounters (without treasure xp) (varies by classes, some need more and others need less)
Exception: from level 2 to 3, 50 encounters (without treasure xp) (varies by classes, some need more and others need less)

Party

4E: Assumes and balance5 equal level party members

3E/PF: Assumes and balanced for 4 equal level party members

[erikun]

D&D4e does indeed have a SRD. And it is indeed as bare bones as you have seen. WotC thought that the D&D3e SRD stifled sales but they still wanted content available for 3rd party publishers, and so they tried something different for D&D4e. What they "tried" involved basically just a listing of keywords from D&D4e as the "SRD". This meant that publishers could still publish books that used terms like Powers and At-Will and Warlord in the same context as D&D4e, but they wouldn't be able to just reprint the D&D4e PHB for their book. People would be required to buy an official D&D4e PHB to get the full rules.

It also meant no online resource can (legally) print the D&D4e rules to find.

There are indeed three Player's Handbooks, along with three Monster Manuals and I think two Dungeon Master Guides. One thing that D&D4e tried to do was make "Everything is Core!" and so, when they had new classes to add to the system, they just released a new PHB with the new classes. I'd say this didn't work out well, because apparently a lot of people just didn't want to keep buying new books for half a dozen classes, but it's the reason why you have so many similar books like Martial Power 2.

For the actual game rules, you just need PHB1 and DMG1. There was a rebalance which changed the numbers for Skill Challenges and for Monster Generation (for the better) but those are probably the only real "updates" you'd need to find. Any other new rules are optional and/or ways of changing the game, not required to run it.


@Jaeda: Some of those spells as Rituals might be something I add to my 5e game.
This is actually something that D&D5e already does. Some spells have the ritual tag. If you have that spell memorized, then you can cast it without expending a spell slot (even when you have no spells) by spending 15 minutes casting. Wizards might be able to cast rituals straight out of their spellbook without even memorizing, but I'm not as familiar with that class.

[Great Dragon]

This is actually something that D&D5e already does. Some spells have the ritual tag. If you have that spell memorized, then you can cast it without expending a spell slot (even when you have no spells) by spending 15 minutes casting. Wizards might be able to cast rituals straight out of their spellbook without even memorizing, but I'm not as familiar with that class.

Yeah, all the 5e Wizard needs is to have the Ritual in their Spellbook, and the materials and time to do the spell.
am I mean because I'll roll for Encounters during this time?

I was looking at some of the spells that I don't remember being on the list, Like Sending.
Cleric could use some more Rituals - Raise Dead, for when it's too late to use Revivify.

[ve4grm]

am I mean because I'll roll for Encounters during this time?

Only if you make it expend the materials/money/whatever if they get interrupted.

[NomGarret]

So, we're building a PHB1 Human Cleric. Gotcha. Others have done a pretty good job of laying the foundation, so let's go a little deeper.

Your main ability scores are going to be Strength, Wisdom, and Charisma, not necessarily in that order. This is going to mean a few things. Reflex will typically be your weak defense, whereas Fortitude and particularly Will should be really good. As an aside, one of the big differences in 4e is that the attacker always rolls. So whereas in other editions it might be a ranged attack roll to hit vs your static defense with a small ball of fire and a reactive roll to dodge vs a static attack against a big ball of fire, it's always a roll to attack vs a static defense regardless of the size of the fire.

Another thing your ability scores are going to influence is your choice in armor. Light armors (cloth, leather, hide, and their variants) add your Dex/Int bonus to AC. Heavy armors (chain being the one you start proficient in) do not. Given your likely lackluster Dex/Int, you'll probably switch to heavy armor if you don't start there from the beginning. Now, for a feat (and we'll cover that soon ... probably) you can use scale armor, but here's one of the interesting quirks you'll run into quite soon - magic weapons and armor are often restricted to certain types, so you may find that the cool class feature-boosting armor doesn't come in scale.

Beyond that, let's get to power choice. You're a human, so you get 3 At-Will powers to choose from.

Lance of Faith - Wisdom-based. Short range (close enough a dwarf could walk there in a single action). Deal some radiant damage (damage types are a common optimization route, but don't sweat it now) and give an ally a bonus to hit that target.

Priest's Shield - Strength based. Melee. Do some damage and give an ally an AC boost.

Righteous Brand - Strength based. Melee. Do some damage and give an ally an attack bonus vs that target.

Sacred Flame - Wisdom based. Short range. Bit of radiant damage and ally gets either Charisma based temp HP or a saving throw (which in 4e is a roll to shake off ongoing effects).

So you'll get a mix of melee and short range powers. You're going to stay up in the thick of things to reach your allies and your enemies.

[Yakk]

...
Like 1/3 of the statements about 4e are wrong. Please don't.


4E = Constitution at Level 1 + Maximized Hit Dice Every Level
No.

4E: NPCs with Class Levels only keep the 4 highest levels of each category of AEDU abilities, players keep all that they gain through leveling up.
Thus, players have more Encounter and Daily abilities that are useful, and those extra At-will abilities are too low level to be useful.
Thus, for the same level, NPCs are always weaker than PCs, unless you go Elite or Solo.
Nonsense.

Regulars gives normal experience, and typically four of them at the same level as the player would give 50:50 change.
No.

Solo gives 4× experience, however, heroic have 4× hit points, paragon have 5× hit points, and epic have 6× hit points!
Thus, it is harder the higher you go when fighting Solos.
False.

4E: follows the preferred number sequence of 4, 5, 6, 7, and double every 4th level.
Confusing even tho true.

[tiornys]

It's not how I'd typically phrase it, but I think the assertion about four regulars per player being a 50/50 battle is correct. I think it should be emphasized that a standard encounter is one same-level enemy per player character, with the expectation that an average group has 4-5 player characters.

I remember a level+4 encounter being defined as roughly a coinflip, where the monsters have equal chances of winning as the PCs. Typically I think of this as one level+4 monster per PC (e.g. 5 L9 monsters vs. 5 L5 PCs), but as the XP budget of a L9 monster is equal to 4x the XP budget of a L5 monster, the same XP budget gets you 20 L5 monsters, or 4x the number of players. It appears that this L(n+4) XP = 4x L(n) XP formula holds throughout the level ranges.

edit: never mind. I just double-checked and Ln+4 XP is only twice Ln XP, so the correct formula would be double the number of same level enemies. I don't know how I screwed that up in my head when I looked yesterday.

[Great Dragon]

@ NomGarret: Thanks!


Only if you make it expend the materials/money/whatever if they get interrupted.

Depends on a few factors: Type of Ritual and how close they got to completion.
You know, what the PCs are usually doing to the Cultists?

@tiornys
Might need some help with translation of that…
Let me see. if I'm level one - need two CR 1 monsters for XP boost?

@Yakk
I'll see if I can borrow the Book, either today, or Monday, and post what I find here.
**
Opps - ran out of time.
I'll try to get the book again next week.
Edit - Managed to get ahold of friend, and quickly confirm some info.

<Cleric moved>

[PoeticallyPsyco]

It would probably be worth checking your local library for the books you want. That's what I've done every time I was playing 4e, and the Seattle Library system at least has a lot of them (PHB I, II, and III, Martial Power, Adventurer's Vault, Monster Manual, DMG, Player's Guide to Faerun, Divine Power, probably a few others I'm forgetting). I was able to get every book I wanted, although sometimes I had to wait a week or two on hold. Now that 5e is the current edition, the 4e books are probably in even less demand.

[Great Dragon]

It would probably be worth checking your local library for the books you want.

Right now all I need is the PHB 1, although once I get a basic grip on that, I'll check for the others you listed at the Portland Library.

The last time I tried to get D&D books at the (different state) library, they said that they couldn't keep copies in stock, because people would check them out, and never return them.

[Vhaidara]

Str 10 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10

Just a note, 4e does not work if you skip ability scores. If you want to keep things simple, I would just take a basic array (probably 16/16/12/12/10/8), but the system completely falls apart if you try to run without a real statline


Hit Points: 12 (+0 Con). (+5/lv)

This is incorrect, level 1 HP adds CON Score, not CON mod. Low level 4e characters are extremely durable by the standards of other editions.

[Jaeda]

@tiornys
Might need some help with translation of that…
Let me see. if I'm level one - need two CR 1 monsters for XP boost?

You probably should ignore most of that. The normal encounter is 1 monster per PC (not for the party like in 3e/5e) of approximately their level (LV -1 to LV+2ish), with elites counting as 2 monsters and minions as 1/4. The attack bonus math means that going above LV+4 or below LV -2 is likely to make them either frustrating or trivial. You are probably better adding more monsters if you want to make the fight harder.



Human: +2 to one Ability Score.
One Bonus At-Will Power from Class.
+1 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses.
Characteristic: Tolerant.

I believe humans also get training in one additional skill.



Hit Points: 12 (+0 Con). (+5/lv)
Armor Class:
(Still looking for Starting Equipment)

Fortitude Defense: +0 Con = 0
Reflex Defense: +0 Dex = 0
Will Defense: +2 class + 1 Wis = 3 (?)

Your starting HP should be 22: you add your Con SCORE not modifier here. You do use your Con modifier for computing how many healing surges you get. Your defenses are a static DC number and should be 10 higher; Fort 10, Ref 10, Will 13.



Cleric (divine leader)
Do I choose a Domain? Doesn't seem so, just pick a Deity that fits the desired Role (Leader) ?


No you don't choose a domain. The closest thing is that your deity affects which channel divinity feats (like Armor of Bahamut) are available to you which give you an alternate use of your Channel Divinity ability. Remember that once you use a Channel Divinity ability, like Turn Undead, you can't use the others until your Channel Divinity recovers after a short rest.

Do you have a character sheet? This one (http://www.commonroomgames.com/DnD4_char_sheet-2_pgs.pdf)will help guide you through a lot of the math and stuff.

[Great Dragon]

Made some Edits to Cleric.


Just a note, 4e does not work if you skip ability scores. If you want to keep things simple, I would just take a basic array (probably 16/16/12/12/10/8), but the system completely falls apart if you try to run without a real statline

Since this PC is stuck in the White Room; they are mostly just helping me to get the Basics down, for 4e. I'm a little odd, in that I believe that even a straight 10 PC should still be able to engage in the game, not just PCs with High Stats and only one or two Low stats.


This is incorrect, level 1 HP adds CON Score, not CON mod. Low level 4e characters are extremely durable by the standards of other editions.

Thanks!


You probably should ignore most of that.

That explanation make a lot more sense !! Thanks !!


No you don't choose a domain.
Do you have a character sheet?
Thanks for the PC sheet.

Any suggestions on which Deity to pick?
Bahamut looks like a good pick, but what other options are good?

Comparing different Channel Divinity powers is what I'll most likely do the next time I get the book.

[Dimers]

Since this PC is stuck in the White Room; they are mostly just helping me to get the Basics down, for 4e. I'm a little odd, in that I believe that even a straight 10 PC should still be able to engage in the game, not just PCs with High Stats and only one or two Low stats.

That's technically true. Such a character wouldn't be of much use in fighting level-appropriate enemies or handling level-appropriate skill tests, but they can interact with all aspects of the game system. And of course you can roleplay without any reference to stats at all.


Any suggestions on which Deity to pick?
Bahamut looks like a good pick ...

... says the guy with "Dragon" in his username :smallwink: Optimal characters rarely take Channel Divinity feats, honestly, so the choice is unlikely to have mechanical impact.

On the other hand, following a deity's tenets works differently in 4e than other systems, and that may help your choice. Clerics, paladins, avengers and other divine classes can't "fall" or get cut off from their god's power unless the GM explicitly violates RAW (p61-62). You get invested with the power and that's that. But if you act in a way your god or her representatives would dislike, the mortal agents might come hunting you. So do pick a deity whose principles you can abide by (listed on p21-22). That's the reason the PHB tells you to pick a good or neutral god for most games (p62).

[HouseRules]

This is incorrect, level 1 HP adds CON Score, not CON mod. Low level 4e characters are extremely durable by the standards of other editions.

Yakk disagree that you add con score at level 1.

It's even on page 14 of PHB 1.

[Jaeda]

The armor of Bahamut is the only one that I've seen in play. The ability turn a crit into a regular hit can be a lifesaver and is almost assuredly better than divine fortune if the situation comes up. Most of the others can be kind of finicky. Pelor's radiance has the disadvantage of both being circumstantial (only while fighting undead) and essentially being a closer range, slightly more powerful version of your turn undead power.

That said, since divine fortune is kind of weak and turn undead is very circumstantial, I'm going to disagree with Dimers and say if you think you have a uses for your deity's channel divinity feat, you should go ahead and take it. I do like his suggestion though that Bahamut is a fitting choice for the Great Dragon.

[Lanaya]

Yakk disagree that you add con score at level 1.

It's even on page 14 of PHB 1.

Yakk disagreed about you getting 'Constitution at Level 1 + Maximized Hit Dice Every Level', because there is no such thing as hit dice in 4e, nor is there anything that closely resembles them. There is a fixed amount of HP per level that has nothing to do with dice. It's also not based on your con score at level 1, it's based on your current con score, so increasing your con will increase your HP.

[Great Dragon]

That's technically true. Such a character wouldn't be of much use in fighting level-appropriate enemies or handling level-appropriate skill tests, but they can interact with all aspects of the game system. And of course you can roleplay without any reference to stats at all.

This is one of the peeves that I have with D&D. Everything in the game revolves around the focus on High Stats to be able to be effective at doing things, like fighting Monsters.
The monster's AC should be based on the BaB/Proficiency of the Character/s, with only a few monsters AC being adjusted up to require Higher Stats.

Sure, like a lot of Fantasy Games, the PC/s are supposed to be Heroic, and are more likely to have better than average abilities. But, I also like Folk Stories of how the Character went from Average Person to Hero. Where those higher Stats make doing things easier for those Characters, instead of making it where those without can barely engage.

*******
As for the Skill Tests, I might be required to figure out some other way to accomplish the Goal.
And the DM should make doing so possible, if not actually encouraging the Players to do this.
*******

... says the guy with "Dragon" in his username :smallwink: Optimal characters rarely take Channel Divinity feats, honestly, so the choice is unlikely to have mechanical impact.

I don't always go for the obvious.:mitd:
Are there any Non Channel Feats that you suggest?


The armor of Bahamut is the only one that I've seen in play. The ability turn a crit into a regular hit can be a lifesaver and is almost assuredly better than divine fortune if the situation comes up. Most of the others can be kind of finicky. Pelor's radiance has the disadvantage of both being circumstantial (only while fighting undead) and essentially being a closer range, slightly more powerful version of your turn undead power.

I do like (Dimmers') suggestion though that Bahamut is a fitting choice for the Great Dragon.

Which is why I put him there. :biggrin:
Humm, since this PC is supposed to be "Help Party": Looks like Bahamut it is.....

[NomGarret]

I don't always go for the obvious.:mitd:
Are there any Non Channel Feats that you suggest?
.

Sticking to PHB1, not really. What I would suggest is making a shortlist of any feats that you like. You'll have another five of them over the course of the Heroic Tier, and since prereqs are typically minimal, you can take them in whichever order you like. Some, like Improved Initiative, are better for the controllers and defenders in your party to lay down their area attacks and get into position. Good teamwork is not running into where the wizard was going to place their wall, after all. Others, like Toughness and Durable, are best saved for in-game choices once you see how often you run out of hp or surges.

One thing I would take a look at is multiclass feats. Now, you only get to pick one, but it does qualify you for future feats and paragon paths of that class. Plus you get training in a skill and a little taste of one of their class abilities. Student of Battle is good if you just want to double-down on being leadery.

[Vhaidara]

Sure, like a lot of Fantasy Games, the PC/s are supposed to be Heroic, and are more likely to have better than average abilities. But, I also like Folk Stories of how the Character went from Average Person to Hero. Where those higher Stats make doing things easier for those Characters, instead of making it where those without can barely engage.

So, this is one of the places where 4e is different from other systems. There's a reason that levels 1-10 are called "Heroic" tier. You're already past your origins an in to being a Hero.

And honestly, why would it be a problem for a system to assume you have the stats that the system says you will have? The game is built around the assumption of the 22 point buy (or the array I posted earlier). Games running that are what things are expected to have, it allows you to engage with the feat system (since a lot of feats will have requirements of your stats) and it gives you some control to be independent of the power of chance that comes from being in a d20 system.

[Jaeda]

I'll second that if you try to play using a commoner array that you are going to have a bad time (since you won't be hitting very often, many riders will have no effect (since they are ability based), and you will get pummeled by enemies who frankly have better stats than you). In any game, you should try to play it the way the designers intended before you change things since it is usually built that way for a reason. Please tell me you don't add salt to your food at a restaurant before tasting it.

[Great Dragon]

If you want to keep things simple, I would just take a basic array (probably 16/16/12/12/10/8)

You also mentioned Point Buy, where is that given? DMG1 ?


Please tell me you don't add salt to your food at a restaurant before tasting it.

Fair. Another reason why I'm doing this thread.

Figuring out what all 4e does, as well as Killing bad ideas about it.

[Vhaidara]

You also mentioned Point Buy, where is that given? DMG1 ?

PHB1, I believe. It's the default character creation method
also here
http://www.asmor.com/scripts/4eAbilityScores/

[Dimers]

Point-buy and some other standard stat arrays are on PHB 17-18.


I'll second that if you try to play using a commoner array that you are going to have a bad time (since you won't be hitting very often, many riders will have no effect (since they are ability based), and you will get pummeled by enemies who frankly have better stats than you). In any game, you should try to play it the way the designers intended before you change things since it is usually built that way for a reason.

I can't argue with the second part, but the first can be addressed by a GM. PCs get zero point-buy? Just subtract 3 from everything the monsters do and from skill DCs, boom, done. (Okay, sure, there are a couple other issues like monster HP. But you get what I'm saying.) Or pit the commoner-PC team against two goblins instead of five. Lower the difficulty to what those PCs have a shot at handling.

@Great Dragon -- Since this thread is to help you see why/how people like 4e, let me put this right up front: a lot of us like being heroic, and 4e starts from heroic. Poor stats get in the way of that goal in many ways. Maybe you'll feel better about your successes when they require a lot of in-game effort, but you're not likely to find a group of players who like 4e and also have that preference. I'm not saying all 4e players want easy wins. But it's a fair generalization that we want to have a good chance at making a difference, at not wasting turns.

[Great Dragon]

Thanks!!

I don't mind playing Heroes, and in fact that's what I feel most Editions of D&D were.
Try playing a Commoner in AD&D, or only taking the Commoner Class (or any of the other NPC Classes) in 3e. Ugh !!

I'll keep in mind that 4e was designed and intended for that kind of play.

I'll look over the feats, and as much of the other things as possible over the next week.

Thank you all for your help and patience.

[ve4grm]

Thanks!!

I don't mind playing Heroes, and in fact that's what I feel most Editions of D&D were.
Try playing a Commoner in AD&D, or only taking the Commoner Class (or any of the other NPC Classes) in 3e. Ugh !!

I'll keep in mind that 4e was designed and intended for that kind of play.

Yeah, even more than other editions, 4e was meant to model a Heroic style of fantasy. Character are better than your average commoner.

Just go with the standard ability array, and you'll be fine.

[MeeposFire]

Funny enough the reliance on ability scores of certain amounts to be able to really make the game work is an aspect of 4e (and 5e for that matter though nowhere near as much and 3e to a more limited extent) that I do not like. One of my favorite aspects of AD&D and earlier versions of D&D is that you do not really need high ability scores to make an effective character at least as much as in these other editions (even more so if you eliminate in AD&D the minimum ability scores needed to cast certain spells and if you add bonus thief ability points then you can alleviate their issue as well). Playing a lowish str high int fighter is actually very effective in 2e but doing that in some other editions is not that great (and you would likely be told to play another class or multiclass depending on which edition you are playing).

On the plus side 4e did do the work to make it so that a character using point buy in a reasonable manner or using a standard array in a way that makes sense for a class you get a character that works. So the game works really well in terms of mechanics but I am not a fan of the need for certain levels of ability scores and the rather large increasing of stats over time needed to keep up with the math.

[ThePurple]

Playing a lowish str high int fighter is actually very effective in 2e but doing that in some other editions is not that great (and you would likely be told to play another class or multiclass depending on which edition you are playing).

Personally, I think this is one of 4e's biggest flaws. The design emphasis on each class having a specific mainstat and secondary stat gets kind of boring, imo, especially when you're pushing the "heroic" character concepts or you want to play an sub-optimal race (e.g. none of the stats they get are main or secondary stat for a class). Why shouldn't an extremely intelligent tactical warlord be capable of using swordplay to outsmart their opponents and hit rather than simply having to use high strength to hit with warlord powers (unless they burn a feat and multiclass into Swordmage)? Why shouldn't a fighter (as a defender) with high charisma be able to manifest some nice fighter-y bonuses out of that? Why is Intelligence basically useless for Clerics even though Religion is an Int based skill?

By that same token, it's always bothered me that the skill lists for so many classes are so extremely small (Weaponmaster Fighters get access to Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Streetwise and Intimidate, which is such a limited non-combat repertoire that I'm never surprised that people feel useless in skill challenges).

4e's classes are very concept limiting (almost to the point where the concept needs to match a class to be effective), which is why my homebrew has basically gotten rid of them. PCs have roles and pick their primary and secondary stats based upon the character. The classes are guidelines for how to build a PC, but they're so limiting that you miss out on a *lot* of really cool concepts that should be effective (and some utterly absurd ones that are crazy effective but don't really grok with me as sensible).

[MeeposFire]

Personally, I think this is one of 4e's biggest flaws. The design emphasis on each class having a specific mainstat and secondary stat gets kind of boring, imo, especially when you're pushing the "heroic" character concepts or you want to play an sub-optimal race (e.g. none of the stats they get are main or secondary stat for a class). Why shouldn't an extremely intelligent tactical warlord be capable of using swordplay to outsmart their opponents and hit rather than simply having to use high strength to hit with warlord powers (unless they burn a feat and multiclass into Swordmage)? Why shouldn't a fighter (as a defender) with high charisma be able to manifest some nice fighter-y bonuses out of that? Why is Intelligence basically useless for Clerics even though Religion is an Int based skill?

By that same token, it's always bothered me that the skill lists for so many classes are so extremely small (Weaponmaster Fighters get access to Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Streetwise and Intimidate, which is such a limited non-combat repertoire that I'm never surprised that people feel useless in skill challenges).

4e's classes are very concept limiting (almost to the point where the concept needs to match a class to be effective), which is why my homebrew has basically gotten rid of them. PCs have roles and pick their primary and secondary stats based upon the character. The classes are guidelines for how to build a PC, but they're so limiting that you miss out on a *lot* of really cool concepts that should be effective (and some utterly absurd ones that are crazy effective but don't really grok with me as sensible).

Clearly I agree with you but oddly warlord is one of the few who can make it work since they have a fair number of decent to pretty good powers that involve the warlord making basic attacks so you could take melee training or intelligent blademaster to make effective basic attacks and use those powers (such as vengeance is mine). It does not change the point at all but it is one of the few classes that can somewhat do it and still make actual attacks.


As for the skills I would be in favor of porting the 5e background skill idea of adding additional skill prof (not just access but actual prof) for your background. Does not solve everything but it would help.

[Great Dragon]

Thanks for posting, everyone!!

I'm stuck with Insomnia, and on my phone right now, so might not be able to put in witty responses.
As always, look for edits.

Will look at Battle Cleric some other time.

(Still double checking, let me know if you see anything I missed.)

<Cleric moved - again>

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Unless I misremember, every character starts with 100gp to spend on whatever they want, and I think all the equipment (weapons, armor, and adventuring gear) is in Chapter 7.

[Dimers]

One Bonus Feat: Human Perseverance +1 to saves.
Fortitude Defense: +3 Con +1 race +1 feat = 15
Reflex Defense: +1 Dex = +1 race +1 feat = 13
Will Defense: +2 class + 3 Wis +1 race +1 feat = 17

Saves aren't the same as defenses. That's one of the big differences in terminology that trip people up. When an enemy imposes some nasty effect on you that lasts more than a few seconds, you make a save against it at the end of each round (p279). By default that's an unmodified d20, and anything 10 or higher succeeds -- a 55% chance. With the Human Perseverance feat, you could hit that 10+ by rolling a 9, so your chance to throw off persistent debuffs goes up to 60%. But your Fortitude, Reflex and Will are completely separate.


At Will: Priest’s Shield; Sacred Flame; and Lance of Faith

Encounter: Healing Strike

Daily: Guardian of Faith

Utility: Divine Fortune and Turn Undead
(I think these go here)

Basically, yeah. When people talk about gaining utility powers, they're usually referring to the ones you get from your class* at levels 2, 6, 10, etc. (Chart on p29) And depending on how you arrange things in your head, you might want Turn Undead listed under "Encounter" since it's an attack. Lumping it with Divine Fortune helps clarify that it's one-or-the-other, though.

* Later books give you more options based on your trained skills and sometimes your race, not only from the class utility powers.

Priest's Shield isn't as likely to hit as the other at-wills, of course. But working with just PHB materials, I'd say it's a good choice. Sacred Flame and Lance of Faith are both "ranged", so you'd provoke opportunity attacks for using them.** Page 290 discusses OAs and refers you to p287 regarding how to make the attack. P268 has more info on how opportunity actions work. By taking a melee power, you can do something better than a basic attack when you're surrounded.

Again, later books expand your options. Fairly late in the game's lifespan, Wisdom-based melee cleric attacks were introduced.

** Almost all monsters -- maybe all of them? not sure -- have a "melee basic attack" that's reasonably accurate. Even if you're facing archers and spellweavers, try not to provoke opportunity attacks without good reason. As p290 mentions, they get to take a swing before you can finish the provoking action, possibly negating it completely by KOing you.

[Jaeda]

Hit Points: 22 (12 +10 Con score). (+5/lv)


You should have 28 hp; you forgot to adjust it when you changed your constitution. You should note that you are bloodied at 14 hp and you recover 7 hp when you spend a healing surge. You should also record that you get 7(Class) + 3 (Con) = 10 healing surges each day.


Saves aren't the same as defenses. That's one of the big differences in terminology that trip people up. When an enemy imposes some nasty effect on you that lasts more than a few seconds, you make a save against it at the end of each round (p279). By default that's an unmodified d20, and anything 10 or higher succeeds -- a 55% chance. With the Human Perseverance feat, you could hit that 10+ by rolling a 9, so your chance to throw off persistent debuffs goes up to 60%. But your Fortitude, Reflex and Will are completely separate.
That's one that I made the first time I played 4e.

[Great Dragon]

Edited in changes. Thanks!


Saves aren't the same as defenses. That's one of the big differences in terminology that trip people up. When an enemy imposes some nasty effect on you that lasts more than a few seconds, you make a save against it at the end of each round (p279). By default that's an unmodified d20, and anything 10 or higher succeeds -- a 55% chance. With the Human Perseverance feat, you could hit that 10+ by rolling a 9, so your chance to throw off persistent debuffs goes up to 60%. But your Fortitude, Reflex and Will are completely separate.

Ummm..
Please Run that again, a little slower....

So, Evil Mage casts Sleep on My Cleric.

Do they need to beat my Will Defense to affect me?
Or do I roll a save to resist?

If they succeed...

Does my Cleric need to Roll 9+ to wake up each round?

Or is it something else?

[Jaeda]

The Evil Mage casts sleep! They make an implement attack (the bonus is listed in their stat block) against your will defense, which is good for you since that is the best of your non-AC defenses. Unfortunately, they rolled 12+4 = 16, which meets your Will defense (since the feat bonus doesn't apply), so you fall unconscious (save ends). On your turn, you can do nothing, because you are asleep. At the end of your turn, you make a save. You roll a 9+1 (feat) = 10 and recover. If you didn't have the human perseverance feat, you would stay asleep and would try again next turn (you almost always need a 10).

Most effects are either "until the end of your next turn" or "save ends". Almost all instances of ongoing damage (such as from being poisoned or put on fire) are the later and will work exactly like the above.

[Great Dragon]

@Jaeda: thanks!!

Ok. Cleric wakes up and notices that Evil Mage is busy Monologue-ing their poor Minion/s.

So, Cleric uses his Implement to cast his Lance spell.

Attack roll?
or try to beat Evil Mage's (?) Defense?

If hit - does Astral Fire apply?

[Highfeather]

@Jaeda: thanks!!

Ok. Cleric wakes up and notices that Evil Mage is busy Monologue-ing their poor Minion/s.

So, Cleric uses his Implement to cast his Lance spell.

Attack roll?
or try to beat Evil Mage's (?) Defense?

These two are the exact same thing. An attack roll in 4e is always made against the enemy's Defenses - specifically the one listed in the power. In the case of Lance of Faith, you will be rolling to beat the Evil Mage's Reflex Defense. It is an Implement attack roll using your Wisdom, so you roll a d20, add your Wisdom modifier and half your level and compare that to the Evil Mage's Reflex Defense. If you meet or exceed that number, you will hit. The attack roll technically also includes other bonuses such as an Enhancement bonus from a +X Magic Weapon, but those are unlikely to be relevant at first level.


If hit - does Astral Fire apply?

Astral Fire gives you "a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls when you use a power that has the fire or the radiant keyword." The power block for Lance of Faith has the Radiant keyword, and the 'Hit' line specifies that you have to roll a d8 for damage, making it a damage roll. So yes, Astral Fire applies.

The easiest way to actually check if a feat that keys off a damage type applies is to just look at the damage the power deals. With how the rules work regarding damage types, if you do a certain type of damage with a power, that power has the relevant keyword - Radiant in this case.



In general, saves versus defenses is fairly easy, you just need to let go of the terminology used in other editions.

An attack roll will always be versus someone's defenses (numeric value), with the power calling out which defense you are targeting.

Saves are nearly always against conditions, and are indepedent of your ability scores. There is only a generic "saving throw" in 4e, no specific Str/Con/etc. saving throw.
You can easily determine if you need to roll a saving throw against an effect by looking at its duration. It can be a specified point in time ("until the end of your next turn"), in which case no saves are involved.
If the effect instead says "(save ends)", you will by default need to roll a saving throw at the end of each of your turns until you save against the effect (or are dead, of course). Unless otherwise specified, the DC for a saving throw is always 10.

It can get a little more complex from there, but everything is fairly straightforward. There is, for instance, a difference between "Immobilized (save ends) and Dazed (save ends)" and "Immobilized and Dazed (save ends both)". In the first case you have two (save ends) conditions on you, so you would roll two saving throws - one against each condition. In the second case, (save ends both) means that they both are ended on the same saving throw. You only roll one saving throw, and if you meet the DC, both conditions will be gone - otherwise they will both remain.
The other thing I would like to point out are Death Saving Throws - which actually behave like every other saving throw, just with different DCs. 9 and below is essentially a 'fail' - three strikes and you're out. 10-19 is neutral and your condition doesn't change. 20 will allow you to heal via spending a healing surge. Because of this, your Human Perseverance feat will also bump up your Death Saving Throws by 1.

The final thing I will quickly want to point out in this already slightly too complex post is the nature of bonuses. For instance, both your feats give a +1 feat bonus to something - and bonuses of the same type do not stack. Luckily, they are for two different things in this case - one is for saves, the other is for damage. You can tell the bonus types apart from the wording: +1 feat bonus, +1 enhancement bonus, +1 item bonus, etcetera. So if you ever come across another feat that gives you, for instance, a +2 feat bonus to saving throws, note that you cannot stack it with Human Perseverance. Only pointing this out because it's a common mistake made early on, with people aiming to gain 'immunity to saving throws' for instance, which would essentially be the case (aside from debuffs) with a flat +9 bonus to saving throws because of the default DC of 10. If bonus types weren't a thing, a Human could achieve this at level 12 (out of 30...) by just taking the Human Perseverance feat 9 times.

[Dimers]

If bonus types weren't a thing, a Human could achieve this at level 12 (out of 30...) by just taking the Human Perseverance feat 9 times.

Nah, can't take a feat more than once unless it says so (p192), same as in 3rd-ed. But that's a good point about the death saves! With the Human Perseverance feat, Great Dragon, you can roll a 19 on a death save and get the benefit of a 20 (p295).

Reviewing that section reminded me of another difference between editions. If you're at negative hit points when you get healed, you reset to 0 before the healing. 5e copied that concept but 3.X didn't have it.

[Excession]

Ok. Cleric wakes up and notices that Evil Mage is busy Monologue-ing their poor Minion/s.

Your saving throw is made at the end of your turn. Once your cleric wakes up their turn is over, and you would need to wait until the next round to attack.

There is a feat is a later book that lets you make saves against some effects at the start of your turn as well, but you won't have access to that with just PHB1.

[Great Dragon]

Reviewing that section reminded me of another difference between editions. If you're at negative hit points when you get healed, you reset to 0 before the healing. 5e copied that concept but 3.X didn't have it.

5e did change it a little.
In that unless you take enough damage to put you at your maximum HP in negative value, the PC didn't go below zero HP, where only three death save Failures was death. (3 strikes is also here, in 4e)


Unless I misremember, every character starts with 100gp to spend on whatever they want, and I think all the equipment (weapons, armor, and adventuring gear) is in Chapter 7.

Thanks!
Don't want ya to think you were ignored.
I'll check ASAP.

Edit: friend was also up late, and gave info via email.
Cost for Armor, Mace and Light Crossbow = 70 go.
Equipment next time.

@MeeposFire and ThePurple:
that goes for you two as well !
Some others did reply (thanks) but was directed at other posters.

I'll get to you when on my Tablet, maybe Friday.
Sorry for the delay.


An attack roll in 4e is always made against the enemy's Defenses - specifically the one listed in the power.

AFB, so….

That……. almost confused me.
Ok, so - powers are attacks against a Defense (numerical value)

But, just using your (weapon) at the foe is an attack (using either Str or Dex, depending on type - or are other Stats also allowed?) against their Armor Class.

(Does getting up cost movement?
Half? (5e) or Full?)
If so, assume that he got up before casting the Lance spell. I actually forgot to put that in.

<Moved>

Does 4e have Mage Armor?
If so, assume Evil Mage has that.
(Assuming 14 Int, What is AC?)

If Shield spell exists, assume their Master is a meanie, and didn't teach that to Evil Mage.

(But, go ahead and list what it does, please.
Not just for me, but also for anyone else reading this Thread.)


Your saving throw is made at the end of your turn. Once your cleric wakes up their turn is over, and you would need to wait until the next round to attack.

There is a feat in a later book that lets you make saves against some effects at the start of your turn as well, but you won't have access to that with just PHB1.

I did manage to find a way to get all the 4e books (except Modules) but they won't be here until the end of the month. (No more mad money! For this month, anyway)
So, listing things in the other books (with page numbers, please) is still useful.


Edit

I dispute the assertion that 4e is automatically “heroic”, and that ability scores are as critical to having an effective game as is made out. 4e seems heroic because the default setting for creating encounters is set to “easy”. If you used the same playstyle to run a 1e game, the characters would seem just as heroic.

Also, ability scores seem essential only because the game tells you that players need to succeed in d20 rolls most of the time.

<Snip>

If you somehow contrived for that fighter to have a 10 strength (which I don’t think is even possible using point buy)

So a zero to hero campaign is completely doable using 4e. You just can’t drink the kool-aid.

Well, the lowest I got was two 11s.
So Maybe: 16 Con, 14 Wis, 12 Int, 12 Cha, 11 Dex and 11 Str?

Or take the Standard Array and drop that 8 into Str.

But, most Players aren't likely to do that.

[Beoric]

I dispute the assertion that 4e is automatically “heroic”, and that ability scores are as critical to having an effective game as is made out. 4e seems heroic because the default setting for creating encounters is set to “easy”. If you used the same playstyle to run a 1e game, the characters would seem just as heroic.

Also, ability scores seem essential only because the game tells you that players need to succeed in d20 rolls most of the time.

Take a first level, 1e fighter equipped with a longsword, scale armor and a shield, which is relatively typical equipment until you score some loot. His stats are rolled, so lets say he has a strength of somewhere between 10 and 15, and a constitution of between 10 and 14. He has an AC of 5, does 1d8 damage and on average will have hit points of 5.5.

Let’s say he is fighting a hobgoblin, which has an AC of 5, does 1d8 damage and on average will have hit points of 5.5. So in that respect they are essentially identical.

However, the 1st level fighter needs a 1 to hit the bugbear, so he will only hit the hobgoblin 30% of the time. The hobgoblin, by contrast, hits the fighter on a 13, or 40% of the time.

Using the standard random monster generation table, if the fighter is on the first level of a dungeon he could encounter 2-8 of these, so using the large parties of 1e (padded out with hired mercenaries and henchmen) that is not so bad. However, if he descends to the second level he would encounter 4-16 (and would get double the treasure). If he goes to the third level he would encounter 6-24, but if he defeated them he would get triple the loot.

And it is still possible on the first level of the dungeon to encounter, for example, 2-5 bugbears. Each bugbear has an AC of 5, an average of 14.5 hit points (ie. 164% more than the fighter), and hits the fighter on an 11, or 50% of the time, while the fighter still hits the bugbears only 30% of the time.
By contrast, in 4e a first level character is generally fighting monsters that are considerably weaker than him. A level 1 standard monster is nowhere near as tough as a level 1 PC. A level 1 elite is probably more of an even match.

The point buy system pretty much ensures that the lowest strength score a fighter is likely to have is a 16. A level 1 fighter with a 16 strength using a longsword is +7 to hit, and will hit a level 1 standard skirmisher (with an AC of 15) on a natural 8, or 65% of the time; he would hit a soldier 55% of the time. If you somehow contrived for that fighter to have a 10 strength (which I don’t think is even possible using point buy) he would still hit an at-level soldier 40% of the time, which is still much better than the 1e fighter fighting the hobgoblin.

The 4e game feels heroic because the publishers advance different expectations, but there is no reason why you have to buy into those expectations. A game with potentially low ability scores could be run if the party was willing to run away when necessary, pad out the party with henchmen and hirelings, accept a lower frequency of successful attacks, pick its battles, pay close attention to tactics, and choose lower risk fights.

Note this last requires the DM to adopt an approach where certain areas are, on average, predictably more dangerous than others. Lower levels of dungeons are more dangerous than higher levels, forests are more dangerous than roads, swamps are more dangerous than forests. Parties can then choose heir level of risk.

Another reason why 4e is no more “heroic” is that the good utility powers actually come later in the game than in other editions. Most characters don’t even gain access to non-combat utility powers until level 2, whereas spellcasters get them at level 1 in 1e (think feather fall or jump). And the next tier of spells, which in 1e you get at 3rd level, you don’t receive until level 6 in a 4e game (think levitate or invisibility). In terms of resources, a 1st level 4e party actually has less to work with than a 1st level 1e party.

So a zero to hero campaign is completely doable using 4e. You just can’t drink the kool-aid.

[masteraleph]

5e did change it a little.
AFB, so….

That……. almost confused me.
Ok, so - powers are attacks against a Defense (numerical value)

But, just using your (weapon) at the foe is an attack (using either Str or Dex, depending on type - or are other Stats also allowed?) against their Armor Class.

Which is also a numerical value. All creatures (whether PCs or NPCs) have an AC, Reflex, Fortitude, and Will. In the case of PCs, you'll have to calculate those. For NPCs, they're listed in the stat block. Typically AC will be a few points higher than the other defenses, because most attacks vs. AC are with weapons, and Weapon attacks add in the proficiency bonus (either +2 or +3 depending on the weapon type). Weapon attacks vs. non-armor defenses ("NADs") are more accurate, usually, than ones vs. AC. You're comparing the d20 of the attack roll, plus appropriate bonuses, to the defense listed. If the attacker's total is equal or higher, they hit.


(Does getting up cost movement?
Half? (5e) or Full?)

This is another 4e vs. 5e difference- in 4e, you have Standard, Move, and Minor, and you generally can't stop in the middle of a move to do something else (there are some powers and items in the game- I don't recall if they're in PHB1- that let you stand up as a minor action). Standing up takes your move action.


If so, assume that he got up before casting the Lance spell. I actually forgot to put that in.

Cleric sees that his spell has failed to kill (assuming hit: 1d8+1 = 6 Average damage) the Evil Mage, but maybe has caused the Minion/s to hesitate in attacking him.

Making sure that he has both his shield and mace ready, Cleric moves up to the Evil Mage, and tries to knock some Sense into him!

Does 4e have Mage Armor?
If so, assume Evil Mage has that.
(Assuming 14 Int, What is AC?)

If Shield spell exists, assume their Master is a meanie, and didn't teach that to Evil Mage.

(But, go ahead and list what it does, please.
Not just for me, but also for anyone else reading this Thread.)

I did manage to find a way to get all the 4e books (except Modules) but they won't be here until the end of the month. (No more mad money! For this month, anyway)
So, listing things in the other books (with page numbers, please) is still useful



This is another big difference between 4e and other editions, and it is perhaps the single most liked aspect of 4e for DMs. NPCs (generally monsters, but also true of allies) do not follow PC rules. They are found as statblocks, with the appropriate defenses, hit points, etc. listed in the stat block- note that the numbers in Monster Manual 1 and 2 had issues, so people generally use MM3 and Monster Vaults 1 and 2 if they can. They have certain attacks, but typically far fewer than your average PC does, at least by the time you're in upper heroic, and again, all of the appropriate attack bonuses, damage amounts, effects, etc. are listed in the stat block. They have more hit points than a similarly leveled PC, but few healing surges, since they're designed to be around for an encounter and then go away. They might have items on them, but the items don't give them additional bonuses that you'd get from gaining the item- it's assumed that's baked into the stat block. In short: the Evil Mage might have a Shield ability, but not necessarily, and you wouldn't build a level 3 enemy mage like you would a level 3 PC mage. It's because of this that encounters are so easy to slap together in 4e- take a few enemies of appropriate level, and there are dozens or hundreds for any level, reskin the abilities, and POOF! you have the appropriate enemies. No building an entire party of enemy PCs where you're not sure how their abilities will interact with your party.

In general, NPCs will have an AC of roughly Level +14 and non-armor defenses of roughly level +12- in the case of a high INT mage, Reflex might be level +14, Fortitude level +10, and Will level +12 or 13. Are they level 1? 15 AC, 15 Reflex, 11 Fortitude, 13 Will. Level 4? 18 AC, 18 Reflex, 14 Fortitude, 16 Will. What's their attack vs. your defenses? Roughly level +5 vs. AC, +3 vs. NADs. So their Sleep ability (which is NOT the level 1 Daily power Sleep) probably is 1d20+4 vs. Will at level 1, 1d20+7 at level 2, or 1d20+33 at level 30 (though note that effects probably change as levels increase). There are also standard numbers for monster damage and their hit points, as well.

This, BTW, is why it's so important to give out appropriately leveled items (and why WotC introduced feats to increase PC attack and NADs in later books- they realized that PCs fell behind the curve at higher levels.) PCs need to keep up with enemies adding +1 to attack/defenses every level, and PCs only get +1 every 2 levels from leveling up. So PCs need appropriate Enhancement bonuses, ability bonuses, feat bonuses to keep up. This is something some folks disliked about 4e, and WotC tried to solve it via an optional Inherent Bonus system that reduces the number of items handed out, and then via the "flat math" of 5e.

[Great Dragon]

@masteraleph:
That helped, thanks !!

Is there Encumbrance listed anywhere?

[OACSNY97]

Well, the lowest I got was two 11s.
So Maybe: 16 Con, 14 Wis, 12 Int, 12 Cha, 11 Dex and 11 Str?
Or take the Standard Array and drop that 8 into Str.
But, most Players aren't likely to do that.
Last edited by Great Dragon; Today at 12:56 AM.




SNIPPED great explanation from masteraleph

In general, NPCs will have an AC of roughly Level +14 and non-armor defenses of roughly level +12- in the case of a high INT mage, Reflex might be level +14, Fortitude level +10, and Will level +12 or 13. Are they level 1? 15 AC, 15 Reflex, 11 Fortitude, 13 Will. Level 4? 18 AC, 18 Reflex, 14 Fortitude, 16 Will. What's their attack vs. your defenses? Roughly level +5 vs. AC, +3 vs. NADs. So their Sleep ability (which is NOT the level 1 Daily power Sleep) probably is 1d20+4 vs. Will at level 1, 1d20+7 at level 2, or 1d20+33 at level 30 (though note that effects probably change as levels increase). There are also standard numbers for monster damage and their hit points, as well.

This, BTW, is why it's so important to give out appropriately leveled items (and why WotC introduced feats to increase PC attack and NADs in later books- they realized that PCs fell behind the curve at higher levels.) PCs need to keep up with enemies adding +1 to attack/defenses every level, and PCs only get +1 every 2 levels from leveling up. So PCs need appropriate Enhancement bonuses, ability bonuses, feat bonuses to keep up. This is something some folks disliked about 4e, and WotC tried to solve it via an optional Inherent Bonus system that reduces the number of items handed out, and then via the "flat math" of 5e.

Great Dragon, masteraleph gave a really good explanation of the rate at which NPCs/monster defenses increase versus the rate at which PC attack bonuses increase. A mathematically minded friend of mine worked it out in a spreadsheet at one point and said that in 3ish terms that ALL 4e PCs have an equivalent to 1/2 BAB.

That monster defenses scale faster than PC attack bonus matters in 4e play as I learned (the hard way) with my first 4e character, a PHB1 half-elf cleric built before "Divine Power" and the change in how non-human PC racial ability bonuses are handled. This character had a 17 WIS at 1st level for a +3 attack bonus, and with some admittedly bad dice luck, I was hitting less than 55% of the time and it was no fun. My GM let me rebuild for the 18 WIS and +4 attack bonus and my to-hit rate and therefore ability to contribute to the combats increased and I had more enjoyable time.

4e PBH1 Cleric (and Paladin and Warlock) are sometimes described as "V shaped classes" meaning that they have two ability scores that their powers key off of and a 3rd ability used for "riders." In cleric's case it's WIS and STR with most of the riders (damage bonus or similar) coming from CHA. You can build and play a cleric that has both WIS and STR powers, but it tends to be easier to contribute to the action when you focus on one or the other and start with a post-racial modifier of an 18 in your "attack stat" and a 12+ in CHA for the riders. This is less obvious at low level, but as the game progresses, the number you need to roll on the d20 to overcome the enemies defenses creeps up. Starting with a +4 modifier (aka an 18) helps balance out the fact that enemy defenses grow faster than your attack bonus.

P.S. It doesn't hurt a cleric that two of the better skills - insight and perception are both keyed off of WIS.

[Jaeda]

Edit: friend was also up late, and gave info via email.
Cost for Armor, Mace and Light Crossbow = 70 go.
Equipment next time.

You probably don't need a crossbow since you have ranged at-will powers. You probably want to pick up a holy symbol and the standard adventurer's kit. There is encumbrance somewhere, but I don't recall exactly where in the PHB 1. Its something pretty high that is usually enough for most characters.



But, just using your (weapon) at the foe is an attack (using either Str or Dex, depending on type - or are other Stats also allowed?) against their Armor Class.

The stat that you use for an attack is dependent on the power that you use. For Basic Attacks, this depends on the weapon, but some classes will make both weapon and implement attacks with other stats. For example, Paladin has some Cha-based melee attacks.


Making sure that he has his shield mace ready, Chainmail = AC 16 and Cleric moves up to the Evil Mage, and tries to knock some Sense into him!
Half level (1 min) + 2 Proficiency (mace) + 0 Str = +3 to 1d20 roll.

The half-level that you add to most of your d20 rolls isn't affected by the min-1 rule. You don't get the +1 level bonus to attacks until you hit level 2. If you do some legerdemain on your stats, you might want to increase your strength to increase the odds that you will hit with your melee powers.


Does 4e have Mage Armor?
If so, assume Evil Mage has that.
(Assuming 14 Int, What is AC?)

If Shield spell exists, assume their Master is a meanie, and didn't teach that to Evil Mage.

(But, go ahead and list what it does, please.
Not just for me, but also for anyone else reading this Thread.)

Monsters, including NPCs, have defenses that determined by the writer, not necessarily by a strict formula. There tends to be some correlation with equipment (so a mage enemy probably has a lower AC than the fighter bodyguard), but in the end it is whatever the writer thought it should have to be a proper balanced encounter. The wizard does have a shield utility power. IIRC, it is an interrupt power that gives an AC boost. A mage monster may also have a shield power, but it doesn't have to work the same way. Everything about the power would be located in the monster's stat block; there is no looking up what the effects of a particular spell are, like you would do in 3e or 5e for monster spellcasters.

[MeeposFire]

Which is also a numerical value. All creatures (whether PCs or NPCs) have an AC, Reflex, Fortitude, and Will. In the case of PCs, you'll have to calculate those. For NPCs, they're listed in the stat block. Typically AC will be a few points higher than the other defenses, because most attacks vs. AC are with weapons, and Weapon attacks add in the proficiency bonus (either +2 or +3 depending on the weapon type). Weapon attacks vs. non-armor defenses ("NADs") are more accurate, usually, than ones vs. AC. You're comparing the d20 of the attack roll, plus appropriate bonuses, to the defense listed. If the attacker's total is equal or higher, they hit.



This is another 4e vs. 5e difference- in 4e, you have Standard, Move, and Minor, and you generally can't stop in the middle of a move to do something else (there are some powers and items in the game- I don't recall if they're in PHB1- that let you stand up as a minor action). Standing up takes your move action.





This is another big difference between 4e and other editions, and it is perhaps the single most liked aspect of 4e for DMs. NPCs (generally monsters, but also true of allies) do not follow PC rules. They are found as statblocks, with the appropriate defenses, hit points, etc. listed in the stat block- note that the numbers in Monster Manual 1 and 2 had issues, so people generally use MM3 and Monster Vaults 1 and 2 if they can. They have certain attacks, but typically far fewer than your average PC does, at least by the time you're in upper heroic, and again, all of the appropriate attack bonuses, damage amounts, effects, etc. are listed in the stat block. They have more hit points than a similarly leveled PC, but few healing surges, since they're designed to be around for an encounter and then go away. They might have items on them, but the items don't give them additional bonuses that you'd get from gaining the item- it's assumed that's baked into the stat block. In short: the Evil Mage might have a Shield ability, but not necessarily, and you wouldn't build a level 3 enemy mage like you would a level 3 PC mage. It's because of this that encounters are so easy to slap together in 4e- take a few enemies of appropriate level, and there are dozens or hundreds for any level, reskin the abilities, and POOF! you have the appropriate enemies. No building an entire party of enemy PCs where you're not sure how their abilities will interact with your party.

In general, NPCs will have an AC of roughly Level +14 and non-armor defenses of roughly level +12- in the case of a high INT mage, Reflex might be level +14, Fortitude level +10, and Will level +12 or 13. Are they level 1? 15 AC, 15 Reflex, 11 Fortitude, 13 Will. Level 4? 18 AC, 18 Reflex, 14 Fortitude, 16 Will. What's their attack vs. your defenses? Roughly level +5 vs. AC, +3 vs. NADs. So their Sleep ability (which is NOT the level 1 Daily power Sleep) probably is 1d20+4 vs. Will at level 1, 1d20+7 at level 2, or 1d20+33 at level 30 (though note that effects probably change as levels increase). There are also standard numbers for monster damage and their hit points, as well.

This, BTW, is why it's so important to give out appropriately leveled items (and why WotC introduced feats to increase PC attack and NADs in later books- they realized that PCs fell behind the curve at higher levels.) PCs need to keep up with enemies adding +1 to attack/defenses every level, and PCs only get +1 every 2 levels from leveling up. So PCs need appropriate Enhancement bonuses, ability bonuses, feat bonuses to keep up. This is something some folks disliked about 4e, and WotC tried to solve it via an optional Inherent Bonus system that reduces the number of items handed out, and then via the "flat math" of 5e.

Just would like to point out that 3e is actually the outlier in this regard. oD&D, AD&D (1e and 2e), and 5e all have monsters and some NPCs using different rules than PCs. For instance in pre 3e D&D not all humans have class levels but in 3e all humans have class levels (even if it is just commoner). In some the differences are not quite as much (though often in those editions that is partially due to there not being too many details in character and monster creation for the most part).

3e is really the odd one out where making monsters and NPCs are so similar and actually use the same resources and then compounds that with having way more details to plug in than other editions. It is also the only one that actively really requires that NPCs have certain levels of equipment in order to fit their CR if we are talking about NPCs which thankfully in other editions I can just add magic items I want them to have and not just to get the numbers I want.

[Great Dragon]

Is the Cleric done?
(I'll edit in Equipment when on Tablet)

If so, I'll start working on figuring out Paragon Level.

I don't see much difference for Battle Cleric: other than more focus on damage spells?
********
Humm. With Monsters being more "what the Author wants", I'm glad I'm not trying to DM this, right now.



3e is really the odd one out where making monsters and NPCs are so similar and actually use the same resources and then compounds that with having way more details to plug in than other editions. It is also the only one that actively really requires that NPCs have certain levels of equipment in order to fit their CR if we are talking about NPCs which thankfully in other editions I can just add magic items I want them to have and not just to get the numbers I want.

Not to upset those that like 4e, but the above is one of the reasons why I still love 3x D&D.

In 3x, Because PCs, NPCs, and Monsters used similar Mechanics, I had less problems figuring out Monster CRs and even ECLs for unusual Character Concepts. (Monster Manual Minotaur as Barbarian PC)

I like 5e, because it's fairly easy for new players to learn, and a lot of the Subclasses are neat; but their Monsters are no-where near "balanced" - being either super easy to deal with (Giant Rats) or hitting way over their Weight Class. (Intellect Devourer)


*****
Now, from what I understand, 4e shines the most in the Tactical aspects of the game (once one understands Game Mechanics) - which isn't something that can be done over a Forum.

I'm not sure how I'm going to figure that part out, since everyone near me is doing either 5e or Retro Clones.
*****************
Some of the Reviews for PF2 are compairing this to 4e (my quick peek looked rather 5e, but would need to actually play to be sure), but I'd rather hear the opinions of those Experienced with 4e on whether or not this is true.

[NomGarret]

An NPC is going to be built on a structure of what they do within the encounter. Mage-types are typically Artillery if they focus on blasting, or Controllers if they focus on statuses, forced movement, etc. The one in this example throws down sleep effects, so we’ll safely peg them as a controller. This determines their base stats which you then modify with ability scores.

Now, how the Evil Mage gets these numbers is deliberately abstracted. Any spells or wards that would be in effect before the PCs walk in (like Mage Armor) are just going to be baked into that number. If you want a shorter defensive boost, like a one-off reactive Shield, that would get listed as a power.

Also, while I wouldn’t necessarily drop the crossbow, be aware that it’s not likely to be that useful. Your ranged at-wills will be more effective in most situations. It’s only when you need significant range that the crossbow will have advantage.

[tiornys]

Not to upset those that like 4e, but the above is one of the reasons why I still love 3x D&D.

In 3x, Because PCs, NPCs, and Monsters used similar Mechanics, I had less problems figuring out Monster CRs and even ECLs for unusual Character Concepts. (Monster Manual Minotaur as Barbarian PC)

I like 5e, because it's fairly easy for new players to learn, and a lot of the Subclasses are neat; but their Monsters are no-where near "balanced" - being either super easy to deal with (Giant Rats) or hitting way over their Weight Class. (Intellect Devourer)
I want to respond to this by quoting some posts from the other thread asking about 4E (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?595077-4th-Edition-DnD), with some editing focus on 4E DMing and to emphasize certain points:


From the DM side, though, is where 4e really shines. Monsters are SUPER easy to build. There are tables to use as guidelines, and you can whip out a fairly unique-feeling monster at the table in about 2 minutes flat. Prep is generally easy as well, and you can throw larger groups of foes at the party, which often makes more sense in the fiction of the game anyways. There are very good encounter-building guidelines as well that you should be aware of, follow a few times to get used to where your group sits on the power/competency scale, and then gradually exceed the guidelines in interesting ways. But the encounter guideline (what is a "balanced" encounter) will always be there, so you always know where you are theoretically hitting on the difficulty scale.

...

DMing is super easy with 4e, though you may have to relearn some of your 3e/5e assumptions that you may be coming to the table with. It's the first edition my wife ever felt comfortable enough GMing to do it on a regular basis.


4e is seriously the easiest edition to DM that I have experienced to date (3.0, 3.5, 4e and 5e). Encounter building is just one of those areas.

...

My experiences with DMing 4e have made me a better DM (either running 5e or when I went back and ran a 3.5e game). Namely because I realized I was previously DMing while looking at the game and the world like the players do, and adhering to artificial standards of "balance" with regards to creatures vis a vis what PCs could do. Monsters and NPCs in 4e do not follow the same kind of creation rules that PCs do, and there's no reason they should. They're only around for one encounter. You can use monster-building guidelines to figure what kind of damage a creature of any given level will be able to put out, but apart from that, the actual abilities themselves should be fun, in keeping with the flavor of the creature, and exciting or cinematic in combat.

As the 4e DM, you know that you are building encounters with an "XP Budget" that you use to "buy" creatures for the encounter. The amount of XP in the "Budget" depends on the Party's level, how many there are, and how difficult you want to make then encounter (there's a table in the DMG). You may want a mix of ranged and melee, or all melee, and you can always add a few Minion Creatures to fill out the ranks. You want an enemy spellcaster to lead the enemies, but don't want him being so frail that he goes down first? You can add a template to a regular Artillery or Controller type monster, making it elite (and doubling it's HP). You can finally pit a full party of 5 or 6 PCs against a Solo monster, and not have to worry about it either going down too quick due to Action Economy (most Solos have out-of-turn actions), or, conversely, doing so much damage that it TPKs the party. Dragon fights are fun and exciting. I ran a level 4 or 5 party against a Green Dragon early in my 4e run, and it was a huge hit with all the players.


My 2cp (and keeping it short) - DM side of things

You have about 500% more time to focus on story with regards to prep-time. Even as an expert 3.5 DM and a new 4e DM. It's that much easier to deal with the numbers. I'm not kidding.
As an experienced DM of 2nd ed., 3.0/3.5, and 4E, I fully agree with these comments. I want to add is that 4E's combat math is extremely robust and this allows the XP budget idea to actually function exactly as intended. I can literally throw together an encounter on the fly, mid-session, just by rapidly looking up equal-level monsters, picking some that seem to fit, and throwing an appropriate number of them out on the battlefield: with 5 players that would be 5 monsters for a standard encounter, 7-8 for a hard encounter. I can easily riff on those numbers by adding Elite monsters (counts as 2) and/or adding in minions (4 minions for every monster replaced). I've done this countless times over the years when my players throw me curveballs and the encounters just work.

[MeeposFire]

Is the Cleric done?
(I'll edit in Equipment when on Tablet)

If so, I'll start working on figuring out Paragon Level.

I don't see much difference for Battle Cleric: other than more focus on damage spells?
********
Humm. With Monsters being more "what the Author wants", I'm glad I'm not trying to DM this, right now.



Not to upset those that like 4e, but the above is one of the reasons why I still love 3x D&D.

In 3x, Because PCs, NPCs, and Monsters used similar Mechanics, I had less problems figuring out Monster CRs and even ECLs for unusual Character Concepts. (Monster Manual Minotaur as Barbarian PC)

I like 5e, because it's fairly easy for new players to learn, and a lot of the Subclasses are neat; but their Monsters are no-where near "balanced" - being either super easy to deal with (Giant Rats) or hitting way over their Weight Class. (Intellect Devourer)


*****
Now, from what I understand, 4e shines the most in the Tactical aspects of the game (once one understands Game Mechanics) - which isn't something that can be done over a Forum.

I'm not sure how I'm going to figure that part out, since everyone near me is doing either 5e or Retro Clones.
*****************
Some of the Reviews for PF2 are compairing this to 4e (my quick peek looked rather 5e, but would need to actually play to be sure), but I'd rather hear the opinions of those Experienced with 4e on whether or not this is true.

I have the other view after DMing all of these versions of D&D that is one of the huge reasons why I HATE Dming 3e. It requires way more work to make something interesting or fun on the Dm side that it is the only edition I will refuse to DM ever again. I did a 3e campaign from 1st level to 20th level so I do have some experience in the area and my dislike of it comes from an actual experience rather than just inferences on how I think I would like it.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

One important difference between Paragon Paths and Prestige Classes from 3.5 is that you get all the benefits from your Paragon Path in addition to everything you're getting from your base class. They're more like a subclass from 5e in that respect.

The PHB only has a couple of PPs for each class, but the Power series (Divine Power for Clerics) has tons of cool and flavorful options. Another book (can't remember which off the top of my head; maybe PHB II?) has racial Paragon Paths that aren't tied to your base class at all. Or if you're interested in multiclassing, if you've taken all four multiclassing feats for a base class, you can use that base class as your Paragon Path, choosing a total of 3 powers at the points you would normally get them from a PP.

[Great Dragon]

@tiornys: I also go back to 2e. Liked 3x better than that. Skipped 4e (no players and no extra money, mostly) and can mostly get 5e to work.

@MeeposFire. Without any experience DMing 4e, and it being rather unlikely, I can't make any comparisons.

But, between 3x and 5e, I got better "Balanced" Encounters in the former.


Level 1 At-Will Prayers
Lance of Faith Cleric Attack 1
Priest’s Shield Cleric Attack 1
Righteous Brand Cleric Attack 1
Sacred Flame Cleric Attack 1

Level 1 Encounter Prayers
Cause Fear Cleric Attack 1
Divine Glow Cleric Attack 1
Healing Strike Cleric Attack 1
Wrathful Thunder Cleric Attack 1

Level 1 Daily Prayers
Avenging Flame Cleric Attack 1
Beacon of Hope Cleric Attack 1
Cascade of Light Cleric Attack 1
Guardian of Faith Cleric Attack 1

******
Human: +2 to one Ability Score.
One Bonus At-Will Power from Class:
Edit = One Bonus Skill from Class. History
+1 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses.
Characteristic: Tolerant.

Armor Class: 16 (Chainmail)
(There doesn't seem to be any Starting Equipment, where is Starting Gold and Cost lists?)

Skills: Religion (plus three) Diplomacy, Insight, Heal.

Class Feature Prayers
Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune Cleric Feature
Channel Divinity: Turn Undead Cleric Feature
Healing Word Cleric Feature


*****

Looks like I’ve mostly already chosen: Devoted Cleric.

Francis O'Mally. Human (male)
Cleric (divine leader)
Deity: Bahamut.

One Bonus Feat: Human Perseverance +1 to saves.
First level Feat: Astral Fire Armor of Bahamut

Point Buy (link) results: 16,14,12,12,11,11.

Str 12 Dex 11 Con 16 Int 11 Wis 16 Cha 12

Hit Points: 28 (12 +10 Con score). (+5/lv)
Bloodied: 14 Hp
Healing Surges: 7 +3 Con = 10 (+7 hp/surge)

Skills: (Race) Arcane. (Class) Religion; Insight, Heal, Diplomacy

Passive Insight: 10 + 0 (half level) + 3 Wis = 13
Passive Perception: 10 + 0 (half level) + 3 Wis = 13 (?)
(or are skills without proficiency still usable?)

Fortitude Defense: +3 Con +1 race = 14
Reflex Defense: +1 Dex = +1 race = 12
Will Defense: +2 class + 3 Wis +1 race = 16

I think I'll go for: team bonuses.

At Will: Priest’s Shield 1[W] + Strength modifier damage = 1d8+1.

Sacred Flame is +3 vs. Reflex for 1d6 + 3 radiant damage

Lance of Faith deals 1d8 + Wisdom modifier radiant damage, so your average damage should be 1d8+3 = 8 (+3 from Wisdom,

Encounter: Healing Strike +3 vs. AC for 2d8 + 1 radiant damage (+1 Strength)

Daily: Guardian of Faith +3 vs. Fortitude for 1d8 + 3 radiant damage.

Utility: Divine Fortune and Turn Undead

Rituals: Gentle Repose and Identify.


Equipment
Chainmail +6 AC. 40# 40 gp. -1 check. -1 speed.

Mace +2 Prof. 5 gp. 6#. 1d8 blunt.
Versatile +1 DMG when used two handed.

Light Crossbow +2 Prof. 25 gp. 4#. 1d8 P.

Holy symbol 10 gp. 1#.

Standard Adventurer's Kit. 30#. 15 gp.
Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and Steel, Belt Pouch, 10 days Trail Rations, 50' Hemp Rope, 2 Sunrods, Waterskin.

Ok. Currently carrying 81#. (Still looking for Encumbrance)
5 gold left.


I actually did figure that waking up was all my Cleric could do that round, which is why I put in Monologue-ing Evil Mage.

Cleric casts Lance of Faith!
Holy Symbol Implement:
Half Level 0 + 3 Wis = +3 to hit (?)

Cleric sees that his spell has failed to kill (assuming hit: 1d8+3 = 8 Average damage) the Evil Mage, but maybe has caused the Minion/s to hesitate in attacking him.

Making sure that he has his shield mace ready (Chainmail = AC 16) Cleric moves up to the Evil Mage, and tries to knock some Sense into him!

Half level 0 + 2 Proficiency (mace) + 1 Str = +3 to 1d20 roll. (Still)


Is the Cleric done?

If so, I'll start working on figuring out Paragon Level.

[Jaeda]

Looks done-sh. I recommend that you put stuff in your character sheet since there are a few things on it that you'll want to keep track of (like your Bloodied value and Passive Perception) that are generally self-explanatory (the computations are given on the character sheet). This will also get you to compute your actual skill bonuses.

Your attack bonus for all of your weapon (melee) powers will be +3 as you computed in your vignette and your implement (spell) powers will also be +3 (again as you computed). There is a spot on your character sheet to record this so you don't forget (again it has the math breakdown on the sheet). You will find that your implement powers will be more accurate since AC tends to be a little higher than the other defenses. You should only be using a basic mace attack for opportunity attacks since priest's shield does an attack + a side effect. Likewise, your crossbow will only be used for longer ranges since your implement powers will likely be more accurate, more powerful, and have extra effects.

I recommend that you play a bit before you try to advance your character to paragon tier since jumping straight there is likely to cause decision paralysis. You will need to advance to level 11, which will involve picking new feats at every even level, new attack powers every odd level (encounter powers at 3 and 7 and daily powers at 5 and 9), utility powers at levels 2 and 6, ability boosts at levels 4 and 8 (and a blanket boost at 10, I think), before you pick your paragon path at 11. As has been said before, you get benefits from your paragon path and those from your class. The paragon path will give you new powers while the class will replace its existing powers at higher levels (similar to retraining).

[tiornys]

@tiornys: I also go back to 2e. Liked 3x better than that. Skipped 4e (no players and no extra money, mostly) and can mostly get 5e to work.

@MeeposFire. Without any experience DMing 4e, and it being rather unlikely, I can't make any comparisons.

But, between 3x and 5e, I got better "Balanced" Encounters in the former.
The issues with 5e enemy balance is one of the main reasons I haven't tried to DM that edition. As a player I prefer 4E (because I love tactical combat) but am willing to play pretty much any edition of D&D; as a DM I will run 4E, period.



I actually did figure that waking up was all my Cleric could do that round, which is why I put in Monologue-ing Evil Mage.

Cleric casts Lance of Faith!
Holy Symbol Implement:
Half Level 0 + 3 Wis = +3 to hit (?)

Cleric sees that his spell has failed to kill (assuming hit: 1d8+1 = 6 Average damage) the Evil Mage, but maybe has caused the Minion/s to hesitate in attacking him.

Making sure that he has his shield mace ready (Chainmail = AC 16) Cleric moves up to the Evil Mage, and tries to knock some Sense into him!

Half level 0 + 2 Proficiency (mace) + 1 Str = +3 to 1d20 roll. (Still)

Lance of Faith deals 1d8 + Wisdom modifier radiant damage, so your average damage should be 1d8+3+1 = 9 (+3 from Wisdom, +1 from Astral Fire). Still probably didn't kill the Evil Mage, but it's more damage than your mace typically does--whether you use a basic melee attack or Priest's Shield, 1[W] + Strength modifier damage is indeed 1d8+1. Similarly, Sacred Flame is +3 vs. Reflex for 1d6 + 4 radiant damage, Healing Strike is +3 vs. AC for 2d8 + 2 radiant damage (+1 Strength, +1 Astral Fire), and Guardian of Faith is +3 vs. Fortitude for 1d8 + 4 radiant damage.


Is the Cleric done?

If so, I'll start working on figuring out Paragon Level.
You're done, but like Jaeda I recommend taking it a little slower than just jumping to paragon. If you can't readily get play experience, maybe try leveling up to 5 or 6.

@Jaeda, the blanket boost to abilities is at level 11 (and 21).

[PoeticallyPsyco]

One nice thing about 4e (that's often house ruled or variant ruled into other editions) is that every time you level up, you can change one decision you made about the character. Power or feat isn't working out like you hoped, or you just found a cooler one in a different book? Wish you had a few more healing encounter powers? Next time you level up, swap one power or feat for another of the same level. Bribing the DM with pizza no longer required (but always appreciated).

[NomGarret]

Since this is more if a thought exercise than an attempt at creating actual characters for play, go ahead and jump ahead to paragon. In its own way, it will show how forgiving 4e is when it comes to leveling up and making you plan ahead. Which is to say it’s a lot more forgiving than 3e with a lot more choices as you progress than 5e.

For reference, the universal chart of leveling is found on page 29 of PHB1. Now that we have that to follow along, let’s go Paragon. And for the sake of ease, let’s do things in lumps rather than individually build up 10 levels.

First off, there’s your ASIs. You get +1 to two different scores at 4th and again at 8th. Then upon hitting 11th level and, thus, paragon tier, another +1 to all of them.

Next up is picking a Paragon Path. Occasionally these will have prereqs, but they’re rarely complicated. Usually it’s just race, or requiring training in a skill. None of the four PHB1 cleric paths have any requirements, so pick freely. If you want to multi class, then things get more complex. Once you’ve picked your path, note the 2-3 features it gives you, and a new encounter power.

Next up, let’s add feats. So that list of feats that piqued your interest but didn’t make the immediate cut. Take five of them. Now, here’s a spot where order of operations can get a little tricky, but this is an exercise in how well this works. Feats rarely require each other as prerequisites but they do often have ability score requirements. Be conscious about which ones you now have access to with your ASIs but don’t sweat it. Retraining specifically lets you swap out for feats you qualify for even if you didn’t at the time.

Once you’ve done that, pick one from the paragon tier list. Technically you could pick another one from the heroic tier list, but odds are your 7th favorite heroic feat isn’t going to be as good as your favorite paragon feat.

Now that feats are settled, on to powers. You get one from each of the following lists:

2nd level Utility
3rd Level Encounter
5th level Daily
6th level Utility
7th level Encounter
9th level Daily
10th level Utility

And once those are recorded, it’s on to updating numbers. Add 1/2 level wherever it applies (attacks, defenses, skills, initiative). Note that you do not add 1/2 level to damage. Modify anything affected by your increased ability scores, if you haven’t already. Add HP. Clerics get 5/level after first, so that’s a fairly easy add. Then recalculate bloodied value and healing surge value (half and a quarter of your new total, respectively.)

Now to handle misc items that adjust as you level. Humans don’t have any, but some races do. The Dragonborn breath weapon being a PHB1 example. Clerics have a couple, Turn Undead and Healing Word. Damage/healing and burst size for both of those go up by 11th level.

After that, the next big thing is magic items. Now there are plenty of ways to adjust the game for those who aren’t keen on a heavy reliance on magic items. For now, let’s stick with baseline expectations for the sake of the exercise. All magic items have a level that corresponds to character levels. PCs will typically have one magic item of their level, one lvl+1 and one lvl-1. So feel free to pick three of those. In particular, look at a weapon, a holy symbol to improve your implement attacks, armor to improve your AC, and a neck item to improve all your other defenses.

[masteraleph]

After that, the next big thing is magic items. Now there are plenty of ways to adjust the game for those who aren’t keen on a heavy reliance on magic items. For now, let’s stick with baseline expectations for the sake of the exercise. All magic items have a level that corresponds to character levels. PCs will typically have one magic item of their level, one lvl+1 and one lvl-1. So feel free to pick three of those. In particular, look at a weapon, a holy symbol to improve your implement attacks, armor to improve your AC, and a neck item to improve all your other defenses.

To be clear here: if you start at level 5, say, you’d get level 6, 5, and 4 items, and a level 4 item’s worth of gold. The standard allotment if you’re adventuring is actually 4 items per 5 levels plus a set amount of gold, and each time you get an item, it would be somewhere from level +1 to level +4. For simplicity’s sake, I’d suggest one item per level, more or less.

[Great Dragon]

Thanks, folks!!

Ok, I did borrow the book, and got some things figured out and written down.

First, I realized that I had made a Mistake, in that in order to have the Armor of Bahamut feat, I couldn't have Astral Fire.

Everything else is the same, though.



First off, there’s your ASIs. You get +1 to two different scores at 4th and again at 8th. Then upon hitting 11th level and, thus, paragon tier, another +1 to all of them.

Check.


Next up is picking a Paragon Path. Occasionally these will have prereqs, but they’re rarely complicated. Usually it’s just race, or requiring training in a skill. None of the four PHB1 cleric paths have any requirements, so pick freely. If you want to multi class, then things get more complex. Once you’ve picked your path, note the 2-3 features it gives you, and a new encounter power.

Radiant Servant looks great.


Next up, let’s add feats. So that list of feats that piqued your interest but didn’t make the immediate cut. Take five of them. Now, here’s a spot where order of operations can get a little tricky, but this is an exercise in how well this works. Feats rarely require each other as prerequisites but they do often have ability score requirements. Be conscious about which ones you now have access to with your ASIs but don’t sweat it. Retraining specifically lets you swap out for feats you qualify for even if you didn’t at the time.

Once you’ve done that, pick one from the paragon tier list. Technically you could pick another one from the heroic tier list, but odds are your 7th favorite heroic feat isn’t going to be as good as your favorite paragon feat.

Right.


Now that feats are settled, on to powers.

And once those are recorded, it’s on to updating numbers. Add 1/2 level wherever it applies (attacks, defenses, skills, initiative). Note that you do not add 1/2 level to damage. Modify anything affected by your increased ability scores, if you haven’t already. Add HP. Clerics get 5/level after first, so that’s a fairly easy add. Then recalculate bloodied value and healing surge value (half and a quarter of your new total, respectively.)

Defenses are 10 + 5 (half level) + Class + Abilities?


Now to handle misc items that adjust as you level. Humans don’t have any, but some races do. The Dragonborn breath weapon being a PHB1 example.

Clerics have a couple, Turn Undead and Healing Word. Damage/healing and burst size for both of those go up by 11th level.

Cool. I'll check those out.


After that, the next big thing is magic items. Now there are plenty of ways to adjust the game for those who aren’t keen on a heavy reliance on magic items. For now, let’s stick with baseline expectations for the sake of the exercise. All magic items have a level that corresponds to character levels. PCs will typically have one magic item of their level, one lvl+1 and one lvl-1. So feel free to pick three of those. In particular, look at a weapon, a holy symbol to improve your implement attacks, armor to improve your AC, and a neck item to improve all your other defenses.

Just to make sure, +1 to two abilities every 4 levels and +1 to all abilities at each Tier? (Paragon and Epic)
(Answered. Thanks !!)

<Cleric Move - again !>

[masteraleph]

Thanks, folks!!


I haven't done the adjustments for everything, will work on as I have time.

Just to make sure, +1 to two abilities every 4 levels and +1 to all abilities at each Tier? (Paragon and Epic)


+1 to two abilities on the 4s and 8s (i.e. 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, 28) and to all at 11 and 21. If you stick with the same two abilities, they'll get 8 boosts, for a total of +4 to each of their modifiers. Many Epic Destinies also feature a +2 boost to one or two abilities, as well.

[Excession]

Note that from level 13, the encounter and daily powers from your class replace earlier ones. You have to remove a lower level encounter power of your choice when you choose your level 13 encounter power, and a lower level daily for your level 15 daily, etc. You're essentially replacing weaker powers with stronger ones. This doesn't apply to powers from your paragon path or epic destiny. Also, some powers remain relevant and it may be better to not replace them. Cause Fear for example is very good in a melee heavy party as it makes the enemy provoke opportunity attacks, which scale with your allies.

Also, I would say you're spending too many utility powers on healing. In actual play your two Healing Word uses will be enough for most fights, with maybe Mass Cure Light Wounds being the only power worth a utility slot IMO. Utility powers that can be used once per encounter are often more useful, and more fun because you get to use them more often. Sanctuary (PHB1) at 2, Holy Celerity (Divine Power) at 6, and Recall Ally (Divine Power) or Shielding Word (PHB1) at 10 are all worth looking at I think.

PHB3 introduces "Skill Powers" which are replacement utility powers you can take instead of your class utility powers, but which require training in a particular skill. There are some interesting choices in the list of powers there.

[NomGarret]

Note that from level 13, the encounter and daily powers from your class replace earlier ones. You have to remove a lower level encounter power of your choice when you choose your level 13 encounter power, and a lower level daily for your level 15 daily, etc. You're essentially replacing weaker powers with stronger ones. This doesn't apply to powers from your paragon path or epic destiny. Also, some powers remain relevant and it may be better to not replace them. Cause Fear for example is very good in a melee heavy party as it makes the enemy provoke opportunity attacks, which scale with your allies.

Also, I would say you're spending too many utility powers on healing. In actual play your two Healing Word uses will be enough for most fights, with maybe Mass Cure Light Wounds being the only power worth a utility slot IMO. Utility powers that can be used once per encounter are often more useful, and more fun because you get to use them more often. Sanctuary (PHB1) at 2, Holy Celerity (Divine Power) at 6, and Recall Ally (Divine Power) or Shielding Word (PHB1) at 10 are all worth looking at I think.

PHB3 introduces "Skill Powers" which are replacement utility powers you can take instead of your class utility powers, but which require training in a particular skill. There are some interesting choices in the list of powers there.

In my experience, fights rarely last longer than 4-5 rounds, so once you hit Paragon tier you'll have enough encounter and daily powers that you will rarely need to use your At-Wills. This means once you have 4 or so, you start replacing them rather than adding even more to the stack and definitely never using them. It's also worth noting that you can always choose to learn lower level powers in place of a new level, though I rarely would.

As far as power choice, this is an area where in practice you will often build for party synergy as you level. Sure, that's a lot of healing powers, but now the other PCs can turn their attention elsewhere. Now the Fighter can skip the power that lets her spend a healing surge and take the one that grants Combat Advantage, thus letting the Rogue land more Sneak Attacks.

[masteraleph]

In my experience, fights rarely last longer than 4-5 rounds, so once you hit Paragon tier you'll have enough encounter and daily powers that you will rarely need to use your At-Wills. This means once you have 4 or so, you start replacing them rather than adding even more to the stack and definitely never using them. It's also worth noting that you can always choose to learn lower level powers in place of a new level, though I rarely would.

As far as power choice, this is an area where in practice you will often build for party synergy as you level. Sure, that's a lot of healing powers, but now the other PCs can turn their attention elsewhere. Now the Fighter can skip the power that lets her spend a healing surge and take the one that grants Combat Advantage, thus letting the Rogue land more Sneak Attacks.

As a note- this also depends on what kind of powers you have (and this is part of different classes feeling different).

By way of example- Melee Rangers will often take off-action (meaning non-standard action) attacks for their Encounter powers, because Twin Strike (the Ranger At Will) is so good that a Minor Action Encounter attack + Twin Strike is generally better than their Standard Action Encounter powers. Rogues also end up with some great off-action encounter powers. Warlords have several very good interrupts starting at low levels, and might have a mix of Standard and off-action Encounter powers. Most Controllers, on the other hand, have significantly better Encounter powers than their At Wills, and so will only use At Wills in an unusually long combat. Ditto for Clerics, though if you're using the full set of resources, there's an excellent level 1 Strength based immediate action encounter power (from Dragon magazine) and a strong level 3 Immediate Encounter power (from Heroes of Shadow).

Ultimately, by level 11, you'll have 4 Encounter attack powers (level 1, 3, 7, and your paragon path one at 11), and 3 Daily attack powers (1, 5, and 9). If you're playing with themes, you might have another. As a Cleric, that means that you'll probably rarely use your at wills, but that's not always so for other classes.

[Excession]

As far as power choice, this is an area where in practice you will often build for party synergy as you level. Sure, that's a lot of healing powers, but now the other PCs can turn their attention elsewhere. Now the Fighter can skip the power that lets her spend a healing surge and take the one that grants Combat Advantage, thus letting the Rogue land more Sneak Attacks.

I find two problems with that. First, there are cleric utility powers that are better at preventing damage than Cure Minor Wounds is at healing, especially when Cure Minor is a daily power and others are encounter.

Second, having one character do all the healing isn't great synergy in my experience. Characters can be too spread out for powers to reach them, or the cleric can go down in the first round because the enemies are fighting smart. I think if the group needs another one per day heal, having the Fighter spend a feat to multi-class into Warlord (or the Wizard into Cleric, etc.) will always be better than Cure Minor Wounds.

Choosing only healing spells also locks you out of the more interesting (IMO) game of tactical positioning and interrupts that other utility powers use.

[NomGarret]

Don't get me wrong, I certainly think there are better choices. I'm just using this thread as a teaching tool without always going quite so deep. In practice, I would hold off on most higher level choices until we knew what the rest of the party was going to be, at the very least. And even then, I think it's better to make choices as you go rather than pre-build. Treat it as a practice run rather than a serious build, is my point.

[Excession]

Don't get me wrong, I certainly think there are better choices. I'm just using this thread as a teaching tool without always going quite so deep. In practice, I would hold off on most higher level choices until we knew what the rest of the party was going to be, at the very least. And even then, I think it's better to make choices as you go rather than pre-build. Treat it as a practice run rather than a serious build, is my point.

Agreed, making choices as you go, and informed by how the game is going, is the better option.

I think even the choice of class and role should be done as a group. While a group of four strikers can work, by killing everything before it kills you, a group of four leaders can just be slow and annoying. Looking forward can be useful to make levelling up easier or to make sure you don't miss a pre-req for some nice feat later on, but it doesn't need to be set in stone.

I also like to pick skills so there isn't much overlap. Three people training Diplomacy, Arcana, or a few others is rarely useful. Having out of combat roles and specialisations can be nice as well as in-combat. That said, leaving all the talking up to a party face can itself get boring; I have had good fun playing a Wizard with no real social skills but who tended to be the first to talk in awkward silences, and tended to be honest to a fault. Based on a few Intimidate rolls she was also quite scary even when not trying to be.

[Great Dragon]

(on phone)

Wow !
Quite a bit to read, and ponder.

The Cleric is indeed my first 4e Character, and as such, I fully expect to be informed that there are better options. And I'm very open to suggestions on what to swap out (and for what), and Suggestioned changes for what is currently listed.

The Cure Line: I read as being "free Healing Surges" and so it made sense for my Cleric to grab those. But, a "prevent damage" power that happens more often (Encounter vs Daily) is a valid choice.

What Dragon Magazine# is the power found in?

The other powers and options might need to wait until the books arrive for me to look up.

Thanks for all the help.
I'll check in ASAP.

[Excession]

The Cure Line: I read as being "free Healing Surges" and so it made sense for my Cleric to grab those. But, a "prevent damage" power that happens more often (Encounter vs Daily) is a valid choice.

What Dragon Magazine# is the power found in?

Not costing a healing surge is a nice feature, but it's not a huge difference. The people most likely to be taking damage will tend to have a decent number of surges. Increasing a character's defences, or moving them out of harms way, can make a bigger difference I think.

There is also the ritual "Comrades' Succor" from Dragon 380 which can be used to move healing surges around the party. Though you overall lose one healing surge from the party when using it. It might be accurate to say that ritual bends the healing surge economy to breaking point, but it's nothing that an Artificer can't do with their class features. That's a level 1 ritual btw, so you could pick that up using the Cleric's class feature IIRC.

The powers I listed are all from PHB1 or the splatbook "Divine Power". Skill powers come from PHB3 mostly.

[masteraleph]

Cure is a free surge, effectively. Clerics don't have great U2 selections, but the best might actually be a PHB power- Shield of Faith. Which seems lousy, but it was errataed to a Minor action rather than a Standard. If you pop that early in a combat, you've got a very nice chance of eliminating at least 1 hit against an ally, and possibly more.

[MeeposFire]

Cleric is good though I personally prefer warlord or bard though that is more to do with them being more movement focused and more attack granting options (also basic attack options). Cleric has more healing and as I recall defensive buffs.

[Great Dragon]

<Cleric Moved - Again !>


Cleric is good though I personally prefer warlord or bard though that is more to do with them being more movement focused and more attack granting options (also basic attack options). Cleric has more healing and as I recall defensive buffs.

I'm stuck waiting for the Books to arrive, so my progress in changing the Cleric, much less working through the various Classes is rather slow.

I would not mind if people wanted to make their own Character/s (showing level progression) and posted them here.

Using all the books is quite alright, just please remember to list which book something can be found in.

Once there are at least one of each major type, we can have fun (Faux) virtually throwing Monsters at the PC group , so that I (and anyone reading) can get a better picture of how the different powers work, how they can be used in a team, and if there are overlapping powers and boosts for doing so. (try to keep this to minor PbP, or we will most likely need to move it.)

I suppose that a Battle Area will be needed if we do this, and I suggest a Battleship-like Grid.

A-T across the top for Columns
01-20 down the side for Rows

Anyone going beyond these is considered Out of Bounds, even if they have enough Range to still affect the Battle. This is because it can be confusing for exactly which direction Columns Aa-Ta actually is (Left of A or Right of T?), and what numbers apply for Above Row 01.

[tiornys]

The Cleric is indeed my first 4e Character, and as such, I fully expect to be informed that there are better options. And I'm very open to suggestions on what to swap out (and for what), and Suggestioned changes for what is currently listed.
Here are my thoughts on your heroic-tier power selections, considering PHB options only:

First off, I want to mention that for most characters in 4E, accuracy is a very high priority. More so than in most editions of D&D.
Hitting factors into your damage contribution, but far more importantly it also lets you do things besides damage. On average, your encounter powers do cool/powerful things on hits and nothing on misses. If something happens regardless of hitting it's usually not that powerful. Daily powers are better in this regard but there is still often a massive reward for hitting.

You've chosen to be Wis primary and you've already made the excellent decision to boost that starting stat to 18 (instead of 16 as in your first pass). That fact, plus the fact that your Str is only 11, is why I will almost exclusively be ignoring the Str-based powers.

Attack Powers:
At Wills: your options are limited and you've chosen as well as you can here. If you could lose the Str-based power and take a different option (as is possible with other books in play) I would recommend that.

E1: Healing Strike is Str-based, and therefore significantly less likely to do anything than a Wis-based power. I recommend Divine Glow instead.
This gives you something Wis-based that is safe to do in melee, it deals a decent amount of damage in an area, and it offers a nice offensive boost to your allies. Cause Fear can be more powerful, but it's trickier to use well and it doesn't help with one of the chronic issues for a Wis-based PHB Cleric (getting trapped in melee).

D1: Guardian of Faith is strong provided you can combo it with teammates to effectively restrict enemy movement. I'm willing to assume you have a team where this is true--but if not, Beacon of Hope is an excellent and more flexible alternative. Weakened is a very strong effect for proactively preventing damage.

E3: Daunting Light is a strong choice. Good damage and a decent Effect that happens whether you hit or miss. Even better if you have a Rogue in your party (Rogues care more than anyone else about having combat advantage).

D5: Spiritual Weapon is a great choice for lots of bonus damage during an encounter. Just be careful about getting stuck in melee, as the repeated attacks will provoke opportunity attacks (because the power is Ranged).

E7: Because your Charisma is relatively low, I think Searing Light is a much stronger option for you than Break the Spirit. It's a little less damage, but Blinded is a -5 to melee and ranged attacks plus you force the target to grant combat advantage and prevent them from benefiting from combat advantage. That's a much stronger effect than -1 to attacks and well worth the loss of 2 average damage.

D9: Here's the exception. Divine Power's Effect line might be strong enough to be worth using even though it is Str-based. However, this does give some incentive to want to be maintaining a magical melee weapon in addition to your magical holy symbol, which cuts down on the available wealth you have for other items. Both Flame Strike and Blade Barrier are good alternatives--I think. I don't remember what the powers do in their original form; I only have access to the post-errata versions right now.

Utility powers:
U2: I agree with the comments about Shield of Faith being generally better than Cure Light Wounds, especially in the post-errata version where it only costs a minor action.

U6: Cure Serious Wounds is very strong healing, but it comes at a serious cost of taking your standard action. For that reason I might prefer Bastion of Health even though your Charisma modifier is low--a third minor action healing power can come in very handy. This is a very tough call in a vacuum--group composition and the power choices and playstyles of the other characters would likely form the deciding factor in this decision.

U10: Ok, Mass Cure Light Wounds is finally a healing power that I think is worth spending a standard action on. That said, Shielding Word is extremely likely to cancel one hit per encounter, which adds up to a lot of damage prevented over the course of a day. You're in good shape either way.
Given the other choices you've been making so far, it might be worth revisiting your stat line instead of your power selection. You can use both Str-based and Wis-based powers effectively if you start each stat at a minimum of 16 and keep boosting both of them. Here's a possible L1 stat lineup for this:

Str 16 Con 12 Dex 8 Int 10 Wis 16+2=18 Cha 12

If you go this route, I would recommend spending a feat on Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword. This gives you a +3 proficiency weapon to help bring up your Str-based accuracy and it comes with a very nice [W] value. Alternatively, use a Dagger and pick your Str-based powers more for their bonuses than for their damage (Dagger is the only +3 proficiency weapon in the PHB that you automatically have proficiency with).

Advantages of this: 1) you get access to the full PHB power lineup without loss of effectiveness, and 2) you retain good ranged capability while also not being crippled if forced into melee. Disadvantages: your wealth is somewhat constrained by maintaining a magic weapon and holy symbol (until Holy Avenger becomes available in mid-epic tier), your Cha-based riders will be weak, and your stat decisions are very constrained.

With this approach, you can ignore the objections I raised to Str-based attack powers. The only change I'd recommend to attack powers is taking Righteous Brand instead of Priest's Shield, as +3 (or more) to attack is significantly more powerful than two +1's to AC.

I can look at paragon/epic tier later. I also intend to post a character or two when I have time.

[Great Dragon]

Just jumping in on phone for now, I'll be able to do some more with my tablet on Friday.

@tiornys: those are some nice recommendations. Thanks for the help.

I'm wondering how you got two 16s, since the Point Buy link only gave me one 16 and a 14 for highest stats, at least not without taking 8s.

I did notice that you have one 8 in Dex (most likely explains the second 16*) does that count against my AC in heavy armor?

Ah, reading back


If you want to keep things simple, I would just take a basic array (probably 16/16/12/12/10/8)
So, yeah. I just love my (not Alzhieimers !!) memory !!

Edit: Best results for Point Buy site
16, 16, 12, 10, 10, 10

Str 16 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 16+2= 18 Cha 12

IDK, 8 Dex doesn't seem to hurt me except in Initiative.
I'll edit the below a little later this morning.
Str 16 Dex 08 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 16 + 2 Race = 18 Cha 12

Thus HP is 22 at 1st level, and only a +1 for Cha based effects.
Not the best for overall personal health, but that's alright.


Class Feature Prayers
Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune Cleric Feature
Channel Divinity: Turn Undead Cleric Feature
Healing Word Cleric Feature

Level 1 At-Will Prayers
Lance of Faith Cleric Attack 1
Priest’s Shield Cleric Attack 1
Righteous Brand Cleric Attack 1
Sacred Flame Cleric Attack 1

Level 1 Encounter Prayers
Cause Fear Cleric Attack 1
Divine Glow Cleric Attack 1
Healing Strike Cleric Attack 1
Wrathful Thunder Cleric Attack 1

Level 1 Daily Prayers
Avenging Flame Cleric Attack 1
Beacon of Hope Cleric Attack 1
Cascade of Light Cleric Attack 1
Guardian of Faith Cleric Attack 1

Human: +2 to one Ability Score.
One Bonus At-Will Power from Class:
Edit = One Bonus Skill from Class. Arcana
+1 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses.
Characteristic: Tolerant.

Armor Class: 16 (Chainmail)

Class Features: Channel Divinity, Healer’s Lore, healing word, Ritual Casting.


Human Cleric
+2 to one ability.
+1 Class At-Will power
+1 Skill (Arcana)
+1 to all saves.

Cleric Skills: Religion; Insight, Persuasion, Heal

Str 11 16 Con 10 Dex 11 08 Int 12 Wis 16 +2 Race = 18 Cha 12

04 +1 Wis +1 Cha
08 +1 Wis (20) +1 Cha (14)
11 +1 all
14 +1 Str +1 Cha
18 +1 Str +1 (19) Cha (17)
21 +1 all (Dex 10)
24 +1 Con +1 Cha
28 +1 Con +1 (12) Cha (20)

NomGarret Feats: You mentioned 5 feats for Hero Tier.
{H} Human Perseverance
01 Armor of Bahamut
02 Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword (tiornys)
04 Durable
06 Alertness
08 Armor Proficiency (Scale)
10 Armor Proficiency (Plate)

Fortitude 10 + 0 (half Level) + 2 Con +1 Race = 13
Reflex 10 + 0 (half Level) + 0 Dex +1 Race = 11
Will 10 + 0 (half Level) +2 Class + 4 Wis +1 Race = 17


First Level
At Will: Priest’s Shield; Sacred Flame; and Lance of Faith

Encounter: Healing Strike

Daily: Guardian of Faith Beacon of Hope

Utility: Divine Fortune and Turn Undead

Rituals: Gentle Repose and Identify
First Level Equipment:
Chainmail +6 AC. 40# 40 gp. -1 check. -1 speed.

Mace +2 Prof. 5 gp. 6#. 1d8 blunt.
Versatile +1 Dmg when used two handed.

Light Crossbow +2 Prof. 25 gp. 4#. 1d8 P.

Holy symbol 10 gp. 1#.

Standard Adventurer's Kit. 30#. 15 go.
Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and Steel, Belt Pouch, 10 days Trail Rations, 50' Hemp Rope, 2 Sunrods, Waterskin.

Ok. Currently carrying 81#.
5 gold left.




2nd level
Utility: Shield of Faith


3rd Level
Encounter: Daunting Light


5th level
Daily: Spiritual Weapon


6th level
Utility: [s]Cure serious Wounds Bastion of Health


7th level
Encounter: Break the Spirit Searing Light


9th level
Daily: Divine Power Flame Strike


10th level
Utility: Mass Cure Light Wounds

Slowly including Equipment adjustments.



Second
+1 Holy Symbol; +1 Viscous Mace (Critical = +1d12 damage per plus)


Third
+1 amulet of Protection; Gloves of Piercing;


Fourth
Wavestrider Boots;


Fifth
+1 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor; Everlasting Provisions;


Sixth
+2 Holy Symbol


Seventh
+2 Amulet of Protection; +2 Viscous Mace (Critical = +2d12 damage)


Eighth
Belt of Sacrifice


Ninth
+2 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor


Tenth
Handy Haversack;

Got some help from my friend.
@Excession: But, still need help figuring out what Paragon Powers replace which Heroic Powers.

Feats
11 Combat Anticipation
12 Danger Sense
14 Devastating Critical
16 Mettle
18 Uncanny Dodge
20 Devastating Critical



Thirteen
Encounter: Inspiring Strike Healing Strike traded for Mantle of Glory


Fifteen
Daily: Seal of Warding


Sixteen
Utility: Divine Armor Hallowed Ground
+2 AC and DR 5 to all allies for the encounter is nice, but +2 to saves, all defenses, and Attacks for the encounter is a little better, to my thinking.


Seventeen
Encounter: Thunderous Word
I’d consider Enthrall if the immobilized effect was applied for all allies, but it looks like the targets are only unable to attack the caster, if said is successful in beating their (Wis vs) Will Defense.


Nineteen
Daily: Holy Wrath




Eleventh
+3 Holy Symbol; Sending Stones (pair)


Twelve
+3 Amulet of Protection;


Thirteen
+3 Periapt of Wisdom; +3 Viscous Mace (Critical = +3d12 damage)


Fourteen


Fifteen
+3 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor


Sixteen
+4 Amulet of Protection;


Seventeen
+4 Holy Symbol; +4 Viscous Mace (Critical = +4d12 damage)


Eighteen
Ring of Protection


Nineteen
Helm of Command;


Twenty
+4 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor

Feats
21 Epic Resurgence
22 Blind-Fight
24 Triumphant Attack
26 Light Shield Proficiency
28 Heavy Shield Proficiency
30 Font of Radiance

Even further down the list, what Paragon powers are traded for Epic powers


Twenty-two
Utility: Purify


Twenty-three
Encounter: Astral Blades of Death


Twenty-five
Daily: Seal of Protection


Twenty-seven
Encounter: Sunburst


Twenty-nine
Daily: Astral Storm



Twenty-one
+5 Holy Symbol;


Twenty-two
+5 Amulet of Protection; +5 Viscous Mace (Critical = +5d12 damage)


Twenty-three

Twenty-four
Ring of Regeneration; +5 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor


Twenty-five
+6 Amulet of Protection;


Twenty-six
+6 Holy Symbol;


Twenty-seven
+6 Viscous Mace (Critical = +6d12 damage)


Twenty-eight

Twenty-nine
+6 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor


Thirty
+6 Scarab of Invulnerability

Ability Scores done.
Next up: Figuring out Powers.
After: Equipment changes.

[Vhaidara]

I did notice that you have one 8 in Dex (most likely explains the second 16*) does that count against my AC in heavy armor?

No, because each defense is modified by the HIGHER or two stats
AC: Dex/Int (or none when using heavy armor)
Fortitude: Str/Con
Reflex: Dex/Int (regardless of armor)
Will: Wis/Cha

So if you weren't in heavy armor, AC would be modified by the higher of Dex or Int. Since you can only reduce 1 ability score below 10, the lowest possible ability score modifier between these two is +0 (8/10).

[Great Dragon]

No, because each defense is modified by the HIGHER or two stats
AC: Dex/Int (or none when using heavy armor)
Fortitude: Str/Con
Reflex: Dex/Int (regardless of armor)
Will: Wis/Cha

Thanks!


Class Feature Prayers
Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune Cleric Feature
Channel Divinity: Turn Undead Cleric Feature
Healing Word Cleric Feature

Level 1 At-Will Prayers
Lance of Faith Cleric Attack 1
Priest’s Shield Cleric Attack 1
Righteous Brand Cleric Attack 1
Sacred Flame Cleric Attack 1

Level 1 Encounter Prayers
Cause Fear Cleric Attack 1
Divine Glow Cleric Attack 1
Healing Strike Cleric Attack 1
Wrathful Thunder Cleric Attack 1

Level 1 Daily Prayers
Avenging Flame Cleric Attack 1
Beacon of Hope Cleric Attack 1
Cascade of Light Cleric Attack 1
Guardian of Faith Cleric Attack 1

Human: +2 to one Ability Score.
One Bonus At-Will Power from Class:
Edit = One Bonus Skill from Class. Arcana
+1 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses.
Characteristic: Tolerant.

Class Features: Channel Divinity, Healer’s Lore, healing word, Ritual Casting.

Cleric Skills: Religion; Insight, Persuasion, Heal

Str 11 16 Con 10 Dex 11 08 Int 12 Wis 16 +2 Race = 18 Cha 12


Hit Points
Start = 22
End of Heroic Tier = 72 (22 +45 +5 feat)
End of Paragon Tier = 127 (72 +50 +5 feat)
Epic Tier (30th) = 182 (127 +50 +5 feat)

Healing Surges 7 +0 Con (5 HP each)
11th = 9 + 0 Con (18 HP each)
21st = 9 +1 Con (31 HP each)
30th = 9 +2 Con (46 HP each)

04 +1 Wis +1 Cha
08 +1 Wis (20) +1 Cha (14)
11 +1 all
14 +1 Str +1 Cha
18 +1 Str +1 (19) Cha (17)
21 +1 all (Dex 10) (Wis 22)?
24 +1 Con +1 Cha
28 +1 Con +1 (14) Cha (20)

NomGarret Feats: You mentioned 5 feats for Hero Tier.
{H} Human Perseverance
01 Armor of Bahamut
02 Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade (Excession)
Bastard Sword (tiornys)
{IDK the two handed sword seems more like a (Str) Striker thing)

04 Durable
06 Alertness
08 Action Surge
10 Toughness (+5 HP/tier)


04 Novice Power = (Attack)
06 Alertness
08 Acolyte Power = (Utility)
10 Adept Power = (Attack)



01st level AC: 16 (Chainmail)
10th level AC: 18
20th level AC 20
30th level AC 22


(Wis + Holy Symbol)
01st Wis 4 + HS 0 = 04
10th Wis 5 + HS 2 = 07
21st Wis 6 + HS 4 = 10
30th Wis 6 + HS 6 = 12


(half level)
01st (00) + Str 3 + 0 = 04
10th (05) + Str 5 + 2 = 12
21st (10) + Str 5 + 4 = 19
30th (15) + Str 5 + 6 = 26

First Level
Fortitude 10 + 0 (half Level) + 2 Con +1 Race = 13
Reflex 10 + 0 (half Level) + 0 Dex +1 Race = 11
Will 10 + 0 (half Level) +2 Class + 4 Wis +1 Race = 17

Tenth Level
Fortitude 10 + 5 (half Level) + 2 Con +1 Race +2 Amulet = 20
Reflex 10 + 5 (half Level) + 0 Dex +1 Race +2 Amulet = 18
Will 10 + 5 (half Level) +2 Class + 4 Wis +1 Race +2 Amulet = 24

First Level Equipment:
Chainmail +6 AC. 40# 40 gp. -1 check. -1 speed.

Dagger +3 Prof 1d4 Pierce. Range:

Mace +2 Prof. 5 gp. 6#. 1d8 Blunt.
Versatile +1 Dmg when used two handed.

Bastard Sword Prof 1d10 Slash

Fullblade Prof 1d12 Slash

Light Crossbow +2 Prof. 25 gp. 4#. 1d8 P.

Holy symbol 10 gp. 1#.

Standard Adventurer's Kit. 30#. 15 go.
Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and Steel, Belt Pouch, 10 days Trail Rations, 50' Hemp Rope, 2 Sunrods, Waterskin.

Ok. Currently carrying 81#.
5 gold left.




First Level
At Will: Priest’s Shield; Sacred Flame; and Lance of Faith

Encounter: Healing Strike

Daily: Guardian of Faith Beacon of Hope

Utility: Divine Fortune and Turn Undead

Rituals: Gentle Repose and Identify


2nd level
Utility: Shield of Faith


3rd Level
Encounter: Daunting Light


5th level
Daily: Spiritual Weapon


6th level
Utility: [s]Cure serious Wounds Bastion of Health


7th level
Encounter: Break the Spirit Searing Light


9th level
Daily: Divine Power Flame Strike


10th level
Utility: Mass Cure Light Wounds




Second
+1 Holy Symbol; +1 Viscous Mace (Critical = +1d12 damage per plus)


Third
+1 amulet of Protection; Gloves of Piercing;


Fourth
Wavestrider Boots;


Fifth
+1 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor; Everlasting Provisions;


Sixth
+2 Holy Symbol


Seventh
+2 Amulet of Protection; +2 Viscous Mace (Critical = +2d12 damage)


Eighth
Belt of Sacrifice;


Ninth
+2 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor;


Tenth
Handy Haversack;

Got some help from my friend.
@Excession: But, still need help figuring out what Paragon Powers replace which Heroic Powers.


Paragon Saves
Fortitude 10 + 10 (half Level) + 2 Con +1 Race = 23
Reflex 10 + 10 (half Level) + 0 Dex +1 Race +2 feat = 23
Will 10 + 10 (half Level) +2 Class + 4 Wis +1 Race = 27

Feats
11 Combat Anticipation
12 Danger Sense
14 Lightning Reflexes
16 Mettle
18 Uncanny Dodge
20 Devastating Critical



Eleventh
Solar Wrath (Attack)


Twelveth
Healing Sun (Utility)


Thirteen
Encounter: Inspiring Strike Healing Strike traded for Mantle of Glory


Fifteen
Daily: Seal of Warding


Sixteen
Utility: Divine Armor Hallowed Ground
+2 AC and DR 5 to all allies for the encounter is nice, but +2 to saves, all defenses, and Attacks for the encounter is a little better, to my thinking.


Seventeen
Encounter: Thunderous Word
I’d consider Enthrall if the immobilized effect was applied for all allies, but it looks like the targets are only unable to attack the caster, if said is successful in beating their (Wis vs) Will Defense.


Nineteen
Daily: Holy Wrath


Twentieth
Radiant Brilliance (Attack)




Eleventh
+3 Holy Symbol; Sending Stones (pair)


Twelve
+3 Amulet of Protection;


Thirteen
+3 Periapt of Wisdom; +3 Viscous Mace (Critical = +3d12 damage)


Fourteen


Fifteen
+3 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor


Sixteen
+4 Amulet of Protection;


Seventeen
+4 Holy Symbol; +4 Viscous Mace (Critical = +4d12 damage)


Eighteen
Ring of Protection


Nineteen
Helm of Command;


Twenty
+4 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor


Epic Saves
Fortitude 15 + 10 (half Level) + 2 Con +1 Race +6 Amulet = 34
Reflex 10 + 15 (half Level) + 0 Int +1 Race +2 Feat +6 Amulet = 34
Will 10 + 15 (half Level) +2 Class + 4 Wis +1 Race +6 Amulet = 38

Feats
21 Epic Resurgence
22 Blind-Fight
24 Triumphant Attack
26 Weapon Focus (?) +3 to damage
28 Defensive Mobility +2 AC vs AoO
30 Font of Radiance

Even further down the list, what Paragon powers are traded for Epic powers



Twenty-two
Utility: Purify


Twenty-three
Encounter: Astral Blades of Death

24th level +1 to two Abilities
Str 17 Con 20 Dex 12 Int 14 Wis 20 Cha 13


Twenty-five
Daily: Seal of Protection


Twenty-seven
Encounter: Sunburst

28th level +1 to two Abilities
Str 18 Con 20 Dex 12 Int 14 Wis 20 Cha 14


Twenty-nine
Daily: Astral Storm



Twenty-one
+5 Holy Symbol;


Twenty-two
+5 Amulet of Protection; +5 Viscous Mace (Critical = +5d12 damage)


Twenty-three

Twenty-four
Ring of Regeneration; +5 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor


Twenty-five
+6 Amulet of Protection;


Twenty-six
+6 Holy Symbol;


Twenty-seven
+6 Viscous Mace (Critical = +6d12 damage)


Twenty-eight

Twenty-nine
+6 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor


Thirty
+6 Scarab of Invulnerability

Ok. Suggestions for Feats, Powers and Equipment from other books welcomed.

Still working on Equipment

Looking forward to responses.

[Excession]

You don't have enough Con to qualify for the scale or plate proficiency feats, they need 13 and 15 respectively. You could take proficiency with light and then heavy shields instead, as those feats only require 13 and 15 strength. Getting just +1 AC for one feat isn't great value though. If you're not using a shield, consider using a two-handed weapon rather than a bastard sword. The fullblade (+3, 1d12, high crit) from Adventurer's Vault is the best of them.

Personally I also don't much like critical boosting feats on cleric. Clerics don't get much in the way of multi-attack powers, which leads to not getting that many critical hits either. Look instead for feats that reliably boost accuracy or damage, improve your class features, or give you new options. Multiclass are some of the more interesting ones. Note that you can only multi-class into one other class, but you could take multiple multi-class feats with the same class.

Here's the character sheet (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwAa__0tV1sldG5OVFNZRjFyVDA/view?usp=sharing) from a Wizard I played a while back, if you want to see what a fully built paragon character look like. This game was relatively low on magic items, so we were using the inherent bonus system from DMG2.

[masteraleph]

I should note, if you're looking at other sources- Dragon #400 has a feature called "Battle Cleric's Lore" that can replace "Healer's Lore." One of the parts of that feature is that you get Scale proficiency and a +2 Shield bonus to AC- it basically solves all Cleric AC issues, full stop.

[Great Dragon]

I should note, if you're looking at other sources- Dragon #400 has a feature called "Battle Cleric's Lore" that can replace "Healer's Lore." One of the parts of that feature is that you get Scale proficiency and a +2 Shield bonus to AC- it basically solves all Cleric AC issues, full stop.

Which would be great for the Battle Cleric build.
Thanks!!

Edit: Got the Box of Books!
For the Cleric, I'm staying with the PHB 1.

I think I got everything?
(Except the Muticlassing Feats, which I'll work on when I have time.)

[tiornys]

Given PHB only, your paragon and epic power choices look good to me. The only one I'd seriously quibble with is L25, where I think both Seal of Binding and Sacred Word are much better than Seal of Protection. Part of that might be my valuing the Stunned condition higher than you do--but Stunned is really, really good.

For which encounter/daily attack powers you trade, you always drop the lowest level slot in the category and gain a slot at your current level. I like to think about it is as follows:
(L11: your paragon path gives you an encounter power. This power is outside the trading of powers from your class)
L13: you have 3 encounter powers from your class (plus one from your paragon path), and those powers are E13, E7, and E3*.
L15: you have 3 daily powers from your class at levels D15, D9, and D5.
L17: your 3 encounter powers are now E17, E13, and E7.
L19: your 3 daily powers are now D19, D15, and D9.
(L20: your paragon path gives you a daily power. This power is also outside the trading of powers)
L23: your 3 encounter powers are now E23, E17, and E13.
L25: your 3 daily powers are now D25, D19, and D15.
L27: your 3 encounter powers are now E27, E23, and E17.
L29: your 3 daily powers are now D29, D25, and D19.
*: note that you can always stick a lower level power into a slot. If you want to have a D29, D15, and D1 at level 29, you can.

And for completeness, I'll mention that you keep all Utility powers, so eventually you have U2, U6, (U12--paragon path), U16, U22, (U26--epic destiny)

[Great Dragon]

Given PHB only, your paragon and epic power choices look good to me. The only one I'd seriously quibble with is L25, where I think both Seal of Binding and Sacred Word are much better than Seal of Protection. Part of that might be my valuing the Stunned condition higher than you do--but Stunned is really, really good.

I was not impressed by Seal of Binding, since it only affects a single target and seems to not allow any other of the Cleric's Allies attack the affected creature (am I reading that wrong?)

Sacred Word's psychic damage and stun is ok, but only affects one target.

Seal of Protection does Radiant damage to target, and grants +2 AC to all Allies, and stops the movement of Foes that enter the Zone.

Seal seemed to be the most "Help Party" option for this Cleric.

I'll also go over the Power List you provided, maybe Friday and more on Sunday.

Thanks again for your help !

[Yakk]

Seal of Binding in a Solo + Other fight lets you shut down the solo, especially with regeneration effects.

The party then cleans up everything else.

The downside is creatures that shrug off stun (which later solos do).

[tiornys]

More generally, Seal of Binding splits a hard fight into a manageable fight plus an easy fight. Ideally you target an elite, leader, and/or controller type with it on round 1 and keep them stunned until several/all of the other enemies are dead.

I remember Sacred Word hitting all enemies in a burst 2, but I'm away from book and can't cross check right now. If it's single target then I definitely prefer Seal of Binding.

[Great Dragon]

Well, Binding is one target

Word is Burst 5.

Protection is Burst 2.

So, (only) for this PC concept, I'll stick with Seal of Protection - but Word is better for a (Battle) Cleric.

I need to read what Stunned does in 4e.

[Dimers]

I need to read what Stunned does in 4e.

If your PHB has arrived, you'll find the status effects on page 277. Stunned prevents all actions, even free actions. It also keeps the target from flanking, imposes CA (combat advantage, not Complete Arcane :smallwink:), and with a later rule update it causes non-hovering flying creatures to fall.

[Great Dragon]

I'm still here, just rather busy.
Thanks for responding, and I hope to keep it it up.

I'm slowly working through the books.
Comparing all three PHBs plus Martials 1 & 2 is challenging.

I'll eventually get around to Arcane and Psionic books.

I'm doing what I can to show how I'm making progress learning.


Halfling
+2 Dex and +2 Cha
Bold +5 to save versus Fear
Nimble Reaction: +2 AC versus Attacks of Opportunity.
Second Chance: (Encounter) Interrupt

Str 12 Dex 16+2 = 18 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 16 +2 = 18

Rogue
Armor: Cloth, Leather.
Weapons: Dagger, Hand Crossbow, Sling, Shortsword
+2 to Reflex Defense.
HP 12 + 10 = 22
Surges 6 (5 hp each)
Deity: Avandra (Luck)

Build: Trickster
1st strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack.

Skills: Stealth, Thievery; Dungeoneering, Perception, Insight and Bluff.



Feats
01 Backstabber (d8 SA)
02 Halfling Agility
04 Alertness
06 Improved Initiative
08 Lost in the Crowd
10 Defensive Mobility

4th +1 Dex +Cha
8th +1 Dex +Cha


Powers
First
At Will: Deft Strike; Sly Flourish
Encounter: Positioning Strike
Daily: Trick Strike

Second (Utility) Master of Deceit
Third (Encounter) Setup Strike
Fifth (Daily) Clever Riposte
Sixth (Utility) Chameleon
Seventh (Encounter) Rogue Luck
{Sand in the Eyes?}
Ninth (Daily) Knockout
Tenth (Utility) Shadow Strike

Equipment
01 Starting
02 +1 Rapier
03 Delver's Leather +1
04 Bracers of Shot (+2 damage)
05 Acrobat Boots
06
07 Amulet of Protection +1
08 Delver's Leather +2
09 +2 Dragonslayer
10 Ironskin Belt

Hit Points tenth level 67

Fortitude 10 +5 (half level) + 0 Con +1 Amulet = 16

Reflex 10 + 5 + 5 Dex +2 Class +1 Amulet = 23

Will 10 + 5 + 5 +1 Wis +1 Amulet = 22

I think I got everything.
I'll need to check the other Books for possible Item replacement.


I'll work on Paragon Tier next