Optimisation attempt with weird house rules.

[Trandir]

Well my master limitations were even more strict that what I thought so all of this will be usefull some other time.
Thanks to everyone for all the ideas and advices



Ok as I sayed in the thread "3.5 optimisation but with weird house rules" I am building a new PC. But the restriction the master uses are frustrating (In my humble opinion).
So since I can't do what the game usually allow I would want to do something that usually you don't do because the game might break.
The PC rolled stats are: 18 14 13 12 12 10.
I'd like if it featured a level or 2 of rogue but any idea is welcome.
And here are the updated pc creation rules:

I got no backstory or memory (so every decision no matter how weird might have an explanation and that's enough).

Until level 5 the only legal book is the PHB (but I can use the UA ACF adventurer rogue to have the fighter bonus feat class feature instead of the sneack attack feature).

The following class can't be chosen: sorcerer, cleric, ranger, Master of Many Forms, monk, druid.

From level 6 all books are legal.

The starting race has to be from the PHB and can't be a human, an elf or a dwarf.

I get 5900 gold somewhere and no starting equipment.


Now some other house rules to give you a context:

The master loves AMF and dragons. Is something is important you can bet your ass that there is a huse AMF surronding it and/or a dragon.
In a round only a single sneak attack can accour even if a rogue hits a flat-footed enemy multiple times. The sneak attack still can't crit.
You do not have to confirm a crit but a crit has to surpass the enemy AC to hit.
A natural 1 immediately end your turn and provokes AoO.
All spell with CT of a standard ation require a Full round action to cast.
If you gain your first level in any class that you didn't already had level on you get the full HD and 4×(class skill points+int mod).
The shops have random items from the DMG.
You can craft items only from the DMG.

Ok that said I now need some of the best worst ideas for a PC to bring to the table.
I am cobsidering a wizard 3, fighter 1, rogue 1, Ur priest 2 , mystic theurge 4.
Last time the master threw a titan and we just ran away after 70 damage of chain lighning to the frontliners. He clearly expects PCs out of the norm.

Edit: I forgot the duid is also off limits

[pabelfly]

From the restrictions given, I'd probably build either of these:

- Druid with Favored Enemy, dip into Stalker of Kharash for Favored Enemy (Evil) and Nemesis (Evil). Nemesis lets you sense the presence of enemies up to 60ft away regardless of any barriers between you and them, and you've got full Druid spellcasting.
- Half-Orc Barbarian. Pounce, Power Attack, Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper. Maybe dip fighter for two levels for two bonus feats to up your damage.

With any of these, I'd be seriously considering Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty as my first and third-level feats since your gold is so low compared to what you're supposed to have.

[Trandir]

From the restrictions given, I'd probably build either of these:

- Druid with Favored Enemy, dip into Stalker of Kharash for Favored Enemy (Evil) and Nemesis (Evil). Nemesis lets you sense the presence of enemies up to 60ft away regardless of any barriers between you and them, and you've got full Druid spellcasting.
- Half-Orc Barbarian. Pounce, Power Attack, Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper. Maybe dip fighter for two levels for two bonus feats to up your damage.

With any of these, I'd be seriously considering Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty as my first and third-level feats since your gold is so low compared to what you're supposed to have.

Thaks for the suggestion and I am sorry that I forgot to metion that the druid is not an option either. The first advice would have worked in other circumstances. While the barbarian is a nice class to have fun whit it is also not enough when fighting opponents with twice your grapple modifier and that can easly kill you with a single full attack after you engaged them in close combat.
Minor thing but the sacred vow and the vow of poverty are from the book of exalted deeds and as suck one could take them at level 6 and 9 respectively.

Again thanks for the contribution.

[pabelfly]

What is everyone else bringing to the table?

[Darrin]

Good place to start:

Famous Optimized Character Builds. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258580-Famous-optimized-character-builds)

[Trandir]

What is everyone else bringing to the table?

A sorcerer that has an hombrew item that casts maximazed spells at no drawback.
A ranger with the ACF to quilify for master of many forms.
And a cleric that hides his powers but has a +10 magic weapon with also speed and that on a crit causes some effects similar to a cast of burning hands+lightning bolt.

I am the last to join the party so I won't receive anything weird from the master for a while.

[Maat Mons]

All of the existing party members have "banned" classes? So these restrictions apply only to you then.

For feats outside of the PHB which are normally "1st-level only," are they just flat-out impossible to use in this game? Or will the DM make adjustments to account for his house rules?

One simple option would be Bard 7 / Sublime Chord 4. That would get you 6th-level, spontaneous, Cha-based spells at character level 11.

Wizard could still be quite good... unless your DM is making you start without a spellbook or forbidding you from buying scrolls to add to your spellbook (stores only having random scrolls should still be fine).

Another simple option would be Savage Bard 5 / Ur Priest 6.

[pabelfly]

All of the existing party members have "banned" classes? So these restrictions apply only to you then.

I'm guessing that the DM doesn't want anyone to have the same base classes (Ranger, Cleric, Sorcerer) or major mechanics (wildshaping) together.

[Maat Mons]

That still asymmetrically impacts new additions to the group. The earlier group members get the good stuff. And the later group members get the dregs.

[Trandir]

All of the existing party members have "banned" classes? So these restrictions apply only to you then.

For feats outside of the PHB which are normally "1st-level only," are they just flat-out impossible to use in this game? Or will the DM make adjustments to account for his house rules?



First the master sayed he likes variety so he "bans" a class if a player already plays it.
Second he usually allows a swap if a feat requires a certain level, you get your first feat from outside the PHB but your feat from lv 6 or 9 will be from that book.
Also thanks for the advice on the classes.
But the Sublime Chord requires 13 ranks in both arcane knoledge and listen so it's impossible to get those prerequisites before lv 10?

[Maat Mons]

Okay, then float this idea by him. A Wizard who starts with the Collegiate Wizard feat, to mitigate potential issues with not being able to buy scrolls, and who uses the Eidetic Spellcaster variant, to mitigate potential issues with having no starting equipment.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

I'm gonna echo what someone said in the other thread. Take advantage of the extra skill point house rule and go Druid/rogue/bard and build toward Fochlucan Lyrist.

[Maat Mons]

Oops, misread the Sublime Chord prereqs.

Then you could go... Bard 7 / Paladin of Freedom 3 / Sublime Chord 1? You'd be a level behind Sorcerer on spell access. But you'd get Cha to saves and immunity to compulsions. Could be worse.

[StevenC21]

Just give up on your university minor and play a GiantITP approved wizard.

[AnimeTheCat]

so... like... What do you want to do with your character? Do you want to hit things hard, or do you wanna cast at things real hard, or what? Without some direction, this is kinda tough.

My gut goes Bard/Rogue and focus on supporting the group with the first 5 levels, then maybe something like Unseen Seer then maybe sublime chord or something. Keep your UMD really high and use your money to fill your toolbox with as many scrolls and wands as you can (partial wands if necessary) and be a super jack of all trades. Because of the relatively lame restrictions put on you, you're going to need to focus on something other than just straight damage.

EDIT:
Wait... How has nobody mentioned Jade Phoenix Mage or something? Do Bard 4/Rogue 1(since you want it)/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage X OR Bard 10/Sublime Chord 1/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 8 which lands you perfectly at the Quickening Strike ability for JPM. I say Swordsage because you get access to Shadow Hand and Setting Sun which can get you Giant Slaying Stance and Assassin's Stance, both of which can be very very useful. Play a small race (halfling or Gnome... I prefer Gnome) to proc Giant Slaying Stance more often.

[The Glyphstone]

Slap a level of Commoner onto a thrown-weapons build, take Chicken Infested. Fling dozens of hyper-velocity chickens into your enemies' faces for massive damage.

[Trandir]

With degenerate I mean degenerate stuff. Like Wizard 4/Rogue 1/Gestalt 6 (wizard and unseen seer).
With the 18 to int his gets me a lot of skill ranks (togheter rogue 1 and gestalt 1 gives 90 skill ranks). And an honest 16 wizard caster level at level 11. And this is what i a noob got with not that much experience. But probably the fochlucan lyrist and the sublime chord are better overall options anyway

[Roticet]

With degerate i intend degenerate stuff. Like Wizard 4/Rogue 1/Gestalt 6 (wizard and unseen seer).
With the 18 to int his gets me a lot of skill ranks (both rogue and gestalt gives 4×12 so 96 skill ranks). And an honest 16 wizard caster level at level 11. And this is what i a noob got with not that much experience. Why is everyone just suggesting "standard" class advancement?

Because gestalt doesn't really work like that.... You can't really multi-class a wizard with a wizard.... And 4*12=/=96... more like 48 I didn't catch onto the fact that rogue would be picked up for a lvl. Especially since gestalt just gives you the highest option, not both of the highest and combine them... Gestalt is meant for high powered play yes, but not broken. Gestalting is more like multi-classing, taking away the cons while keeping the pros. And any pros that both original classes provide are only added once. By the class that provides the biggest bonus for that particular pro option. And they are suggesting the most powerful builds they can with the restrictions you have provided. Also, did you actually confirm with your DM that gestalting is allowed?
Gestalting = at best 1.5lvls per lvl rounding up. A lvl 1 gestalt would be closer to a lvl2. While a lvl 2 gestalt is slightly underpowered compared to a normal lvl 3. At least that's been my experience.

[Trandir]

Because gestalt doesn't really work like that.... You can't really multi-class a wizard with a wizard.... And 4*12=/=96... more like 48 I didn't catch onto the fact that rogue would be picked up for a lvl. Especially since gestalt just gives you the highest option, not both of the highest and combine them... Gestalt is meant for high powered play yes, but not broken. Gestalting is more like multi-classing, taking away the cons while keeping the pros. And any pros that both original classes provide are only added once. By the class that provides the biggest bonus for that particular pro option. And they are suggesting the most powerful builds they can with the restrictions you have provided. Also, did you actually confirm with your DM that gestalting is allowed?
Gestalting = at best 1.5lvls per lvl rounding up. A lvl 1 gestalt would be closer to a lvl2. While a lvl 2 gestalt is slightly underpowered compared to a normal lvl 3. At least that's been my experience.

Yes you are right. Those are probably the best options with the weird restrictions I have.

Now. I did my math a little wrong bht not that much The rogue 1 gives 4×(8+4) so 4o skill ranks would gestalt (wizard/unseen seer) 1 would give 4×(6+4) so 40 ranks. Those are 90 instead of 96 points but should still be enough to cover almost all of the skills for OoC scenarios.
As I sayed I am still new to 3.5 so I do not know what would happen if you took a level in a class after a prestige one of the same but i assumed the caster level progression would work look like this: base class level+ prestige class levels. So the prestige class adapt if you increase the base class and gestalting would garant double caster level each level this way. But again thisvwas how I hunderstood it.
And lastly every time I asked the dm he sayed that all classes after lv 5 are acceptable and he never mentioned any limit in this front so I assume he knows gestalt and is fine with it. As he usually throws monsters with 4 or more CR than the party level I think that it is fine.

[pabelfly]

Yes you are right. Those are probably the best options with the weird restrictions I have.

Now. I did my math a little wrong bht not that much The rogue 1 gives 4×(8+4) so 4o skill ranks would gestalt (wizard/unseen seer) 1 would give 4×(6+4) so 40 ranks. Those are 90 instead of 96 points but should still be enough to cover almost all of the skills for OoC scenarios.
As I sayed I am still new to 3.5 so I do not know what would happen if you took a level in a class after a prestige one of the same but i assumed the caster level progression would work look like this: base class level+ prestige class levels. So the prestige class adapt if you increase the base class and gestalting would garant double caster level each level this way. But again thisvwas how I hunderstood it.
And lastly every time I asked the dm he sayed that all classes after lv 5 are acceptable and he never mentioned any limit in this front so I assume he knows gestalt and is fine with it. As he usually throws monsters with 4 or more CR than the party level I think that it is fine.

There's a difference between "take whatever class you want" and "take two of whatever class you want" though. I'd assume there's no gestalt unless your DM specifically says there is.

What about an Ur-Priest? You can meet prereqs with just PHB and five levels of whatever (what you pick depends on what you want to do with your character) and would have 6th-level spells at level 11, progressing up to having 9th-level spells at level 14.

[XionUnborn01]

Yes you are right. Those are probably the best options with the weird restrictions I have.

Now. I did my math a little wrong bht not that much The rogue 1 gives 4×(8+4) so 4o skill ranks would gestalt (wizard/unseen seer) 1 would give 4×(6+4) so 40 ranks. Those are 90 instead of 96 points but should still be enough to cover almost all of the skills for OoC scenarios.
As I sayed I am still new to 3.5 so I do not know what would happen if you took a level in a class after a prestige one of the same but i assumed the caster level progression would work look like this: base class level+ prestige class levels. So the prestige class adapt if you increase the base class and gestalting would garant double caster level each level this way. But again thisvwas how I hunderstood it.
And lastly every time I asked the dm he sayed that all classes after lv 5 are acceptable and he never mentioned any limit in this front so I assume he knows gestalt and is fine with it. As he usually throws monsters with 4 or more CR than the party level I think that it is fine.

Gestalt isnt a class. You dont take a level of "gestalt". Its also a bad idea to assume something when building a character when you could just as easily ask the dm.

[Trandir]

Gestalt isnt a class. You dont take a level of "gestalt". Its also a bad idea to assume something when building a character when you could just as easily ask the dm.

True it is brobably not a good idea to assume that the dm would allow it. My bad. And thanks for the clarifications.


There's a difference between "take whatever class you want" and "take two of whatever class you want" though. I'd assume there's no gestalt unless your DM specifically says there is.

What about an Ur-Priest? You can meet prereqs with just PHB and five levels of whatever (what you pick depends on what you want to do with your character) and would have 6th-level spells at level 11, progressing up to having 9th-level spells at level 14.

An ur-priest seems like the perfect class, perfectly in line with the limitations, has some good abilities and you can cheese some good thing with the steal spell-like ability later on. It doesn't even have any weird requirement or dubius ways of entering it.

Wizard 3, figther/barbarian 1 and rogue 1 , or just random multiclass, looks like a good way to get the requirements/some utility.
Or even double on that and do Wizard 3, fighter 1, rogue 1, ur-priest 2 and mystic theurge 4 to get the advancement from both the mage and the ur-priest spell list.

Another possible setup would be fighter 1/ bard 4/ ur-priest 2/ bard 3/ sublime chord 1 and from 12th level forth take the mystic theurge.

[The Glyphstone]

Once you start Ur priest, don't take any levels that are not Ur priest or Theurge. So Bard 5,Ur Priest 2, Mystic Theurge 8 to start with.

[Trandir]

Once you start Ur priest, don't take any levels that are not Ur priest or Theurge. So Bard 5,Ur Priest 2, Mystic Theurge 8 to start with.

So is getting lv 9 divine spells at level 14 better than both divine and arcane spells at level 19?
Normal spellcasters classes get lv 9 spells at level 17 and the spontaneus casters at level 18

[The Glyphstone]

So is getting lv 9 divine spells at level 14 better than both divine and arcane spells at level 19?
Normal spellcasters classes get lv 9 spells at level 17 and the spontaneus casters at level 18

Yes, for 3 reasons.

1) The higher your max spell levels, the better, and the sooner you get them the better.
2) You can get level 9 divine spells at level 14, then start Theurging, guaranteeing OP clerical magic while still building arcane power.
4) Very few campaigns/characters reach level 18+. Build for immediate power now that can help you survive to get that power later.

[Trandir]

Yes, for 3 reasons.

1) The higher your max spell levels, the better, and the sooner you get them the better.
2) You can get level 9 divine spells at level 14, then start Theurging, guaranteeing OP clerical magic while still building arcane power.
4) Very few campaigns/characters reach level 18+. Build for immediate power now that can help you survive to get that power later.
Yea you are probably right but there is just one more detail: what class would you consider to get to 3 fortitude before level 5? The bard has poor fortitude saves so bard 4 stills gives lv 2 arcane spells for the mystic theurge and +1 fort save. The +2 from first level of a class with a good save is enough to get the needed +3.
Fighter offers nothing interesting exept for 10 hp
Barbarian has more hp and fast movement
Cleric and Druid are kind of off limits
The monk is strait up banned
Paladin loses everything once you become evil
Ranger is all right but physical fighting isn't the focus here
I would protend thowards fighter or barbarian.

[AnimeTheCat]

Once you start Ur priest, don't take any levels that are not Ur priest or Theurge. So Bard 5,Ur Priest 2, Mystic Theurge 8 to start with.

How are you getting a +3 fort save with Bard 5 from the PHB? OP will need to take a 1 level dip in fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger to get that by level 5.

[Deadline]

How are you getting a +3 fort save with Bard 5 from the PHB? OP will need to take a 1 level dip in fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger to get that by level 5.

Or use Savage Bard from UA.

[AnimeTheCat]

Or use Savage Bard from UA.

A restricted book if I read the OP correctly. It looks like fest rogue is the only exception rather than all UA available.

[Rebel7284]

If other UA alternate classes are allowed too, you can take Savage Bard to get a good Fort save on a Bard.

Otherwise, yeah, you need to dip something. Without ACF, Barbarian is probably better unless you want more skills, in which case, Ranger.

[Maat Mons]

The previous thread about this same campaign seemed to indicate that ACFs were most likely to be allowed, even in the level 1-5 range, where the DM is otherwise enforcing a "PHB only" rule.

Assuming that hasn't changed, you could go Paladin of Tyranny for your Fort saves. That version of Paladin requires you to be Lawful Evil, so it's compatible with Ur Priest. If you take it to level 3, you get Aura of Despair, which inflicts a -2 to the saves of all enemies within 10 feet. Handy for any spells you cast that allow a save, or for any such spells your allies cast.

If Dragon Compendium is among your allowed books, you could take the Serenity feat at 6th level. That lets you use Wisdom instead of Charisma for Divine Grace. So you'll add your Wisdom bonus to all saves on a character that uses Wisdom as his casting stat.

[Trandir]

The previous thread about this same campaign seemed to indicate that ACFs were most likely to be allowed, even in the level 1-5 range, where the DM is otherwise enforcing a "PHB only" rule.

Assuming that hasn't changed, you could go Paladin of Tyranny for your Fort saves. That version of Paladin requires you to be Lawful Evil, so it's compatible with Ur Priest. If you take it to level 3, you get Aura of Despair, which inflicts a -2 to the saves of all enemies within 10 feet. Handy for any spells you cast that allow a save, or for any such spells your allies cast.

If Dragon Compendium is among your allowed books, you could take the Serenity feat at 6th level. That lets you use Wisdom instead of Charisma for Divine Grace. So you'll add your Wisdom bonus to all saves on a character that uses Wisdom as his casting stat.

Thanks for the advice but the "loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits
a good act" kind of worries me. That sayed I'll ask for that but bard 4, the 2nd level arcane spells, is required to qualify for mystic theuge immediately after ur-priest so paladin would be at best a single levep and not 3 or even 2 for divine grace

The rogue is already a concession so i don't think he will allow it but ask costs nothing. Also little detail the savage bard has to be chaotic and the ur-priest has to be evil. So having a chaotic evil character in the party isn't exactly a good thing in most situations.
Now for the +2 fortitude dip both classes offers 1 BAB and martial weapons prof.
Barbarian: 12 hp, 4×(4+ int mod) and few good skill, unarmored move (I am considering halfling or gnome so 10 extra ft. are half of the base speed) and rage is there.
Ranger: 8 hp, 4×(6+ int mod) and some good skills so by taking ranger at 4th I can dump all of them in 4 or 5 skills, track and wild empathy are there and will probably never be used and the favored enemy is usefull but physical combat is the last option so it isn't that much usefull.