Werewolf Character

[ZamielVanWeber]

So my friend wants to run a big ol' dungeon crawl and I am working on some character concepts. I would like a werewolf style character without sucking down a pile of LA and HD.

The game is 3.5 but my DM is open to PF content (my other big choice is a converted spiritualist). I do get -1LA to work with and would like to have some casting.

The big thing I am looking for is that iconic werewolf shape, shifting is less important. Shifter definitely is too humanoid for my tastes. I will probably ask about PF lycanthrope as a +1 but was seeing if anyone else had ideas.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's easy. Mulhorandi divine minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) for +1 or +2 LA, with a dip into shapeshifter druid (PHB II). For a small amount of LA (which can be bought off quickly) combined with a not-so-pointless dip, you have both an animal form and a hybrid form.

Easy as lycanthro-pie.

You could always take, say, the lion stats and just refluff (heh) into a wolf, if you want werewolf, rather than a werelion. It's not like there aren't dire wolves that are that flippin' big, or that, being a were-creature, you wouldn't use your claws that way to pounce (since your physiology is likely different from a "normal" wolf).

[Ruethgar]

Hengeyokai(Dog) are pretty damn close to looking like Werewolves. Then you could use your LA for Feral or something. You can also take levels of Werewolf without ever taking the RHD, miss out of some things, but w/e.

[Maat Mons]

Anthropomorphic Wolf/Dog/Riding Dog (Savage species, p215)
Laika (Savage Species web enhancement)
Lupin (Dragon Compendium, p21)

[MisterKaws]

I have a TO build for kind of that in the works, but I currently can't post it because it involves a couple of strategies I used in recent optimization competitions and might reveal my ownership of those builds before judging, which goes against sportsmanship, so I'm waiting until those are over to post it in a showcase of sorts. I think by the end of the month those should be over. I'll try to link it over here once it's done.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always take however many levels of the werewolf savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) as you feel comfortable with. Feel free to take levels just fast enough buy off the LA as you go, since you'll never have more than 1 LA at any given time, should you choose to do it like that.

[upho]

Since PF stuff may be on the table, one potentially very good alternative is the +1 LA Werewolf player template (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/dreamscarred-press/werewolf-player-template/) (which is actually designed specifically for PCs). Grants you some pretty interesting scaling natural attack benefits (make sure you're allowed to use the PF rules for natural attacks), along with lycanthrope change shape (Su) ability into humanoid(or outsider)/hybrid/wolf form and for example easier access to the flavorful Greater Werewolf (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/dreamscarred-press/greater-werewolf/) and/or the excellent Formless Master PrC (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/dreamscarred-press/formless-master/) (if you can find the room for three Shifting Feats (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/dreamscarred-press/shifting-feats/)). Can make you frighteningly effective in melee and combat overall, and works especially well with a Str/Wis class/build like druid, cleric or psy-war.

Even better if also combined with Ordained Defender (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/ordained-defender/) warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/warder) and the Battle Templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/prestige-classes/battle-templar/) Prc (think improved defender/tanking version of the RKV) or the amazing Awakened Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/prestige-classes/awakened-blade/) Prc (for awesome combat numbers and "psionic gishing"). Especially these initiator + caster/manifester combos will kick major butt and give you a lot more bite (pun intended) fitting for a werewolf than spiritualist can, and should be of interest regardless of which specific kind of werewolf/-ish solution you decide on. At least in terms of melee combat power and versatility, they can however also pretty easily outshine any 3.5 counterparts (including ToB classes), so be careful not to go overboard unless you play in a very high power game.

[StSword]

If pathfinder stuff is on the table, how about third party pathfinder material?

The Bite Me! series has a werewolf race with no LA.

A Necromancer's Grimoire: Marchen der Daemonwulf has a werewolf class.

Lords of the Wild has a Soulknife archetype that replaces the psychic blade with a lycanthropic exoskeleton.

Spheres of Power has the shifter class which could easily be adapted for a werewolf.

[False God]

As upho says, the Pathfinder Lycanthrope template is only a +1, and it ditches the HD. So if you're getting a free -1 LA, you've in the clear for a LA 0 character here.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Upho, is there a pdf I can grab that has the template and that class? That is perfect although honorable mention to maxi's idea

[137beth]

Upho, is there a pdf I can grab that has the template and that class? That is perfect although honorable mention to maxi's idea

It looks like it's from Lords of the Wild (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/236076/Lords-of-the-Wild).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, that was what I thought. Thanks so much!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Shifter alone is insufficient, but are you familiar with the Weretouched Master prestige class? That's the class they made when the realized most people playing shifters would be enthused by the opportunity to turn their shifters into genuine lycanthropes. Scent, better natural weapons, bonus feats, thematic special abilities (Trip for werewolves), and as a capstone (5 level class) gives you Alternate Form* based on your chosen animal.

*Alternate Form was errata'd to be essentially just polymorph into the animal, rather than the 'add all the stats together' of true lycanthropy. Your DM might okay the original, more awesome version, though.

[Gnaeus]

Since PF stuff may be on the table, one potentially very good alternative is the +1 LA Werewolf player template (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/dreamscarred-press/werewolf-player-template/) (which is actually designed specifically for PCs). Grants you some pretty interesting scaling natural attack benefits (make sure you're allowed to use the PF rules for natural attacks), along with lycanthrope change shape (Su) ability into humanoid(or outsider)/hybrid/wolf form and for example easier access to the flavorful Greater Werewolf (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/dreamscarred-press/greater-werewolf/) and/or the excellent Formless Master PrC (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/dreamscarred-press/formless-master/) (if you can find the room for three Shifting Feats (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/dreamscarred-press/shifting-feats/)). Can make you frighteningly effective in melee and combat overall, and works especially well with a Str/Wis class/build like druid, cleric or psy-war.

Even better if also combined with Ordained Defender (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/ordained-defender/) warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/warder) and the Battle Templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/prestige-classes/battle-templar/) Prc (think improved defender/tanking version of the RKV) or the amazing Awakened Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/prestige-classes/awakened-blade/) Prc (for awesome combat numbers and "psionic gishing"). Especially these initiator + caster/manifester combos will kick major butt and give you a lot more bite (pun intended) fitting for a werewolf than spiritualist can, and should be of interest regardless of which specific kind of werewolf/-ish solution you decide on. At least in terms of melee combat power and versatility, they can however also pretty easily outshine any 3.5 counterparts (including ToB classes), so be careful not to go overboard unless you play in a very high power game.

A simpler way into formless master for werewolf lovers is moonlight meditant. It gives you the shapeshifter type for free and a floating shifting feat at level 1, and your soulknife is your claws/bite.

[upho]

A simpler way into formless master for werewolf lovers is moonlight meditant. It gives you the shapeshifter type for free and a floating shifting feat at level 1, and your soulknife is your claws/bite.Well, it's certainly a nice werewolf-ish alternative to the werewolf template. Especially if the OP's GM allows for the bonus -1 LA to be traded in for an additional MM level (as per the "Ex-Werewolves (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Moonlight_Mediant#Transcendent_Werewolf_.28Ex.29)" sidebar), and more so if the High Psionics (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/High_Psionics) alternative for the MM is an option of course. But I suspect this would go against the intended purpose of the bonus -LA. (The shifting feats required for the FM can thankfully also be taken as class bonus feats granted by any class.)

[ZamielVanWeber]

I do not k ow how high this dungeon crawl will go, but I was planning moon-warded mystic ranger 3, greater werewolf 5, ranger 2, formless master 5, ranger 5. The stats I rolled were excellent so it can easily support me being human despite being fairly MAD with that build.

[upho]

I do not k ow how high this dungeon crawl will go, but I was planning moon-warded mystic ranger 3, greater werewolf 5, ranger 2, formless master 5, ranger 5. The stats I rolled were excellent so it can easily support me being human despite being fairly MAD with that build.As far as I can remember the 3.5 ranger variants, that could certainly work well and would definitely combine perfectly flavor-wise with being a werewolf.

I would perhaps consider ditching the last 5th level of Formless Master, since by the time you reach 15th level you should have more than enough uses of shifting to easily get by without the permanent shift, making an additional ranger level potentially worth more. Though an extra bonus shifting feat is always nice, of course, and you'd immediately get its top "5+ shifting feats"-benefit if applicable. But there's really no need to decide this early, especially since you don't even yet know whether the game is expected to reach that level.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Good plan. Right now I am to figure out any ways I can tease out a bit of extra damage. My current plan was to see if I could squeeze in Able Learner and Knowledge Devotion. With an Int of 15 and lots of ranger I would easily have the skill points. I may take a flaw for that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Good plan. Right now I am to figure out any ways I can tease out a bit of extra damage. My current plan was to see if I could squeeze in Able Learner and Knowledge Devotion. With an Int of 15 and lots of ranger I would easily have the skill points. I may take a flaw for that.Mayhaps a double-dip into swordsage for Assassin's Stance + Craven?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Mayhaps a double-dip into swordsage for Assassin's Stance + Craven?

Definitely an option for later on. I want to try to get to 4ths ASAP (giving up the last level of formless master is good advice) and, given the two man game, will definitely need a plan to flank reliably. I think my friend will have a bad AC but that is literally enough. The downside of craven is I cannot take immunity to mind-affecting at level 16 but it is definitely an option.

[upho]

Good plan. Right now I am to figure out any ways I can tease out a bit of extra damage. My current plan was to see if I could squeeze in Able Learner and Knowledge Devotion. With an Int of 15 and lots of ranger I would easily have the skill points. I may take a flaw for that.Especially if you're allowed to use the PF rules for natural attacks (claws, bite, gore, talons, sting and slam are all primary per default and remain so even when used together in full attack) - which the PF werewolf player template was designed for - one of the most effective means to increase your damage is of course by getting additional (primary) natural attacks (check out this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127463-3-X-Extra-attacks-natural-attacks-AoO&p=7066595#post7066595) for some tips). You could even consider it a must, since at least in higher levels it'll unfortunately most likely be very difficult and exceedingly costly for you to boost the claws and bite from the werewolf template enough to make do with those attacks alone.

And if you wanna really boost your DPR using a full attack dependent melee style like this, you also wanna take a page or two from the ubercharger's book of course. Most importantly you want pounce, which you'll likely most easily gain in early levels via a barb dip for Lion Totem as you probably know, and which you can also gain for very little cost later at 11th through the Savage Claws option of the werewolf template (which also gives you rend at 6th and rake at 16th for a potentially serious boatload of claw charge damage). If you can wait until 11th for pounce and/or are allowed to retrain a barb dip at that level, there are some additional interesting PF options:

Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/) 1 grants you free IUS and a style feat, opening up for easy access and use of the feats below and simultaneous use of two style feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats/) stances.
Dragon Style (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) and Dragon Ferocity (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat) boosts the Str bonus to damage of your first attack in a round to x2, and to x1.5 on subsequent attacks (and allows you to charge through allies and difficult terrain). In your case, I'd however probably skip these if your GM decides you'd also need Feral Combat Training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/), limiting their use to only one type of natural attacks (instead of the default 3.5 rules which allow you to use them with all your natural attacks without additional investments).
Horn of the Criosphinx (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horn-of-the-criosphinx-combat/) for 2 x Str bonus to damage on all your natural attacks in a charge (both primary and secondary). With several natural attacks, this can of course easily pile on a lot of damage. You can also replace the monk dip with a brawler (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/) dip in order to use this feat, allowing you to grab the Mutagenic Mauler (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/mutagenic-mauler) archetype for a nifty additional +4 bonus to Str and extra NA through alchemist’s (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) mutagen (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/mutagen-su).
PF version of Power Attack (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat/) removes the option of freely choosing the attack penalty granted by the 3.5 version, and instead sets the attack penalty to -1, increasing with an additional -1 for every +4 bab. But the PF version instead gives you a damage bonus equal to 2 x attack penalty with your primary attacks per default, and 3 x attack penalty on all your attacks using Dragon Ferocity or Horn of the Criosphinx (so for example -3 attack and +9 damage at 10th), three times as much as the 3.5 version grants for the same attack penalty.

(As you might guess just from the above, charge focused builds relying on natural attacks - a.k.a. "superchargers" - basically replace 3.5's ubercharger type builds as the top martial single-target damage dealers in PF.)

[Gnaeus]

Especially if you're allowed to use the PF rules for natural attacks (claws, bite, gore, talons, sting and slam are all primary per default and remain so even when used together in full attack) - which the PF werewolf player template was designed for - one of the most effective means to increase your damage is of course by getting additional (primary) natural attacks (check out this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127463-3-X-Extra-attacks-natural-attacks-AoO&p=7066595#post7066595) for some tips). You could even consider it a must, since at least in higher levels it'll unfortunately most likely be very difficult and exceedingly costly for you to boost the claws and bite from the werewolf template enough to make do with those attacks alone.

And if you wanna really boost your DPR using a full attack dependent melee style like this, you also wanna take a page or two from the ubercharger's book of course. Most importantly you want pounce, which you'll likely most easily gain in early levels via a barb dip for Lion Totem as you probably know, and which you can also gain for very little cost later at 11th through the Savage Claws option of the werewolf template (which also gives you rend at 6th and rake at 16th for a potentially serious boatload of claw charge damage). If you can wait until 11th for pounce and/or are allowed to retrain a barb dip at that level, there are some additional interesting PF options:

Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/) 1 grants you free IUS and a style feat, opening up for easy access and use of the feats below and simultaneous use of two style feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats/) stances.
Dragon Style (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) and Dragon Ferocity (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat) boosts the Str bonus to damage of your first attack in a round to x2, and to x1.5 on subsequent attacks (and allows you to charge through allies and difficult terrain). In your case, I'd however probably skip these if your GM decides you'd also need Feral Combat Training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/), limiting their use to only one type of natural attacks (instead of the default 3.5 rules which allow you to use them with all your natural attacks without additional investments).
Horn of the Criosphinx (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horn-of-the-criosphinx-combat/) for 2 x Str bonus to damage on all your natural attacks in a charge (both primary and secondary). With several natural attacks, this can of course easily pile on a lot of damage. You can also replace the monk dip with a brawler (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/) dip in order to use this feat, allowing you to grab the Mutagenic Mauler (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/mutagenic-mauler) archetype for a nifty additional +4 bonus to Str and extra NA through alchemist’s (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) mutagen (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/mutagen-su).
PF version of Power Attack (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat/) removes the option of freely choosing the attack penalty granted by the 3.5 version, and instead sets the attack penalty to -1, increasing with an additional -1 for every +4 bab. But the PF version instead gives you a damage bonus equal to 2 x attack penalty with your primary attacks per default, and 3 x attack penalty on all your attacks using Dragon Ferocity or Horn of the Criosphinx (so for example -3 attack and +9 damage at 10th), three times as much as the 3.5 version grants for the same attack penalty.

(As you might guess just from the above, charge focused builds relying on natural attacks - a.k.a. "superchargers" - basically replace 3.5's ubercharger type builds as the top martial single-target damage dealers in PF.)

Given that Formless Master is on the table, I would expect Longstride shift to replace pounce for the most part. It gives free movement 1/combat. You will want it anyway. Coupled with formless master’s reach improvement you probably won’t need multiple pounces per combat. Of course my werewolf is using moonlight meditant for extra 10 foot shifts before every attack.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I am a ranger. I will have pounce, the spell, soon enough and have Rhino's Rush already. My plan was for vicious claws and then the tripping bite so come 11 pounce will just be there. Not using PF's rules for natural weapons so the second one I get from werewolf will have to become secondary. I am using 3.5's feat progression so I will be extremely feat starved thanks to the 5 feats formless master and greater werewolf suck up. I will need to pick feats carefully until 12th, when I have nothing slated. I am tempted to stick with Knowledge Devotion because identifying monsters is super useful.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I am a ranger. I will have pounce, the spell, soon enough and have Rhino's Rush already. My plan was for vicious claws and then the tripping bite so come 11 pounce will just be there. Not using PF's rules for natural weapons so the second one I get from werewolf will have to become secondary. I am using 3.5's feat progression so I will be extremely feat starved thanks to the 5 feats formless master and greater werewolf suck up. I will need to pick feats carefully until 12th, when I have nothing slated. I am tempted to stick with Knowledge Devotion because identifying monsters is super useful.3.5 allows you to have a pair of claws as primary weapons, unless there's a rule somewhere in your build I'm overlooking.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I meant the second weapon. So the plan is claws primary, bite secondary. Sting once I can have the shifting feat for that. I am probably under estimating my damage because my eternal blade keeps putting out 600+ from time stand still as an immediate action and it has warped my view a bit but I do not want to be dead weight in a two man game so I should be reliable

[Ramza00]

There are so many ways you can do this. So many good ways. I would try to get your DM to do this with a small amount of house rules.

Changeling Race+
Feral Template from Savage Species+
Small amount of Houserules

----

Feral Template for 1 LA (so 3,000 XP if you buy it off) gives you

+4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis
–2 Dex, –4 Int (minimum 2)
Racial HD become d10
Land speed +10 ft
Natural Armor +6 (or if your base NA is higher keep that)
Two Claw Attacks (1d8 if Medium)

If HD 1 to HD 3, Improved grab, Darkvision 60 feet, Fast Healing 2
If HD 4 to 7, Pounce+Improved Grab, Darkvision 60 feet, Fast Healing 3
If HD 8 to 11, Rake+Pounce+Improved Grab, Darkvision 90 feet, Fast Healing 4
If HD 12+, Rend+Rake+Pounce+Improved Grab, Darkvision 120 feet, Fast Healing 5

Now what is Changeling for? I would ask my DM to be able to have the power to shift from Feral mode to normal Humanoid mode and you only gain the benefits with the Feral Mode, but lose the Feral benefits (and Int Penalty) if you are in humanoid mode.

Likewise you could instead do the Shifter Race+Feral to accomplish a similar effect.

And you can advances these abilities further via going Magic of Incarnum+Barbarian+Totem Shifter. Tap into your stronger werewolf side.

-----

I am sure there is a lot of good pathfinder content as well. Like it was mentioned before Dreamscarred Press has a 3rd party book on werewolves. I have not read it but their psionics and tome of battle replacement (Path of War) stuff is excellent.

[liquidformat]

Even though the shifter doesn't cut it in and of itself if you can get your DM to let you use the un-errata'ed weretouched Master it really is a great choice, especially if you add in barbarian, fist of the forest, and beast strike.

One of my hands down favorite builds is bear totem barbarian 3/wild shape ranger 5/fist of the forest 2/primeval 10, dire wolf isn't a great choice for your primal form but it is an awesome build.

[ZamielVanWeber]

As much as I love primeval it comes on line too late (most likely) and I definitely want to make sure I have some magic. Not really sure what the DM will be throwing at us so I want to have a basic took kit.

[upho]

I am a ranger. I will have pounce, the spell, soon enough and have Rhino's Rush already. My plan was for vicious claws and then the tripping bite so come 11 pounce will just be there.Ah, that's true, forgot about the spell. Speaking of, I also realize you could for example cast charge of the triceratops via scroll/wand or prepared at ranger 6, giving you a 1d8 gore with double charge damage, although the short duration is kinda problematic. Guess it could be worthwhile to find some way to cast/scroll/wand unicorn horn (druid 3) for the same effects on top of a minute/level duration and a swift action boost vs evil on a single attack? Not to mention the same-level classic girallons blessing? (But see also below regarding ranger.)

Savage Claws + Vicious Bite likely makes for the strongest combo without more significant additional investments. Just remember that you'll probably need to replace the Greater Trip bonus feat granted by Vicious Bite at 11th with something suitable trip-related existing in 3.5.


Not using PF's rules for natural weapons so the second one I get from werewolf will have to become secondary. I am using 3.5's feat progression so I will be extremely feat starved thanks to the 5 feats formless master and greater werewolf suck up. I will need to pick feats carefully until 12th, when I have nothing slated. I am tempted to stick with Knowledge Devotion because identifying monsters is super useful.
I meant the second weapon. So the plan is claws primary, bite secondary. Sting once I can have the shifting feat for that. I am probably under estimating my damage because my eternal blade keeps putting out 600+ from time stand still as an immediate action and it has warped my view a bit but I do not want to be dead weight in a two man game so I should be reliableHmm...

Reading between the lines of what you're saying here about the feat starvation, your previous character's damage output and being "in a two man game", I'm starting to suspect you should at the very least consider finding a more potent class combo to replace the ranger levels. I mean, while the ranger brings plenty of skill points and the variant and ACFs definitely increase the class' passive defenses and overall versatility, it has neither martial maneuver progression, 6/9 or better casting/manifesting from a strong list, or any native or easy access to effective action economy boosters. And this specific variant and ACF combo unfortunately also removes all the bonus feats you sorely need.

The werewolf template, Greater Werewolf, Formless Master and shifting feats makes for an excellent base chassis, and I have a hard time believing there are no options offering better synergies and stronger benefits to a party of two than the ranger. While I can see quite a few such PF options, I believe my 3.5-fu is unfortunately far too rusty for me to offer good enough advice on this. But thankfully several other posters in this thread and forum regulars should be more than able to give you some great recommendations.


Like it was mentioned before Dreamscarred Press has a 3rd party book on werewolves.I believe the OP has already pretty much decided on using the werewolf player template from that book (Lords of the Wild).

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Pathfinder werewolf, it's weaker than D&D's as you get the better of your physical or the wolf's (ex. You have an 18 str, the wolf has a 13 str, you would use your strength) Then +2 to str and con in animal or hybrid. +2 Wis and -2 Cha In all forms. DR 5 or 10 depending afflicted or natural. There's no racial HD, and it counts as only 1 level. There really isn't much reason aside from roleplay aspect to play as an afflicted, you need to try to control your form whenever you shift.

[ZamielVanWeber]

@upho

3.5 Ranger's list is extremely broad and is one of the only classes in 3.5 that offers full BAB and casting. I lose out on one feat for armor of the senses; I don't have to take the second level and intended to exchange that for a shifting feat. I am not looking for the utter peaks of damage, just to make sure I am nice and reliable. Honestly I am probably doing fine and I can just snag a necklace of natural attacks (+1 of earth) for high damage and a monk's belt and be golden. The suggestion for a sword sage later on is a good plan since they have a few effective boosts there and fractional BAB means my to hit won't be hiccups by having 2 3/4 classes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

@upho

3.5 Ranger's list is extremely broad and is one of the only classes in 3.5 that offers full BAB and casting. I lose out on one feat for armor of the senses; I don't have to take the second level and intended to exchange that for a shifting feat. I am not looking for the utter peaks of damage, just to make sure I am nice and reliable. Honestly I am probably doing fine and I can just snag a necklace of natural attacks (+1 of earth) for high damage and a monk's belt and be golden. The suggestion for a sword sage later on is a good plan since they have a few effective boosts there and fractional BAB means my to hit won't be hiccups by having 2 3/4 classes.Add a wand chamber to that necklace of natural attacks so you can use a wanded spell (Whirling blade? You're still planning on mystic ranger, right?) on your natural attacks. Then purchase a weapon crystal from the MIC, and use the rules in the MIC for adding magic item effects to other items to stack them thar weapon crystal abilities sky-high.

Then take Beast Strike and try using this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) for some inspiration and tossing as many benefits on your unarmed strikes as possible to augment your claws.

[edit] And if you take the above necklace that affects both unarmed strikes and claws, note that adding a weapon crystal to it doubles the effect with Beast Strike. Whee!

[Psyren]

If all you want is to look like a werewolf, go with the Rougarou Pathfinder race (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/race-points-unknown/rougarou-player-characters/) from Bestiary 6. No RHD, LA, type or curse to worry about, just be a chill wolf-dude/dudette.

[upho]

Pathfinder werewolf, it's weaker than D&D's as you get the better of your physical or the wolf's (ex. You have an 18 str, the wolf has a 13 str, you would use your strength) Then +2 to str and con in animal or hybrid. +2 Wis and -2 Cha In all forms. DR 5 or 10 depending afflicted or natural. There's no racial HD, and it counts as only 1 level.Huh? According to Lycanthropes as Characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm):

"Racial Hit Dice: A lycanthrope adds the Hit Dice of its animal form to its base Hit Dice for race, level, and class."
"Level adjustment: Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural)."


I am not looking for the utter peaks of damage, just to make sure I am nice and reliable. Honestly I am probably doing fine and I can just snag a necklace of natural attacks (+1 of earth) for high damage and a monk's belt and be golden.Ok, that's great. Seems I did a bit too much "reading between the lines" then.

And have a nice time howlin' 'n' prowlin' your way through the dungeon(s) as a "man-wolf" packed full of awesome fluff and crunch!

[MisterKaws]

Huh? According to Lycanthropes as Characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm):

"Racial Hit Dice: A lycanthrope adds the Hit Dice of its animal form to its base Hit Dice for race, level, and class."
"Level adjustment: Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural)."



I think you missed something there. I'll give you a hint: it starts with "P" and ends with "-athfinder".

[upho]

I think you missed something there. I'll give you a hint: it starts with "P" and ends with "-athfinder".:smallfrown: Buh... but... *lower lip trembles* ...he said...

He wrote that PF's "werewolf" was "weaker than D&D's" and then mentions a number of strengths the PF Werewolf player template (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/dreamscarred-press/werewolf-player-template/) does not have as the reason for this. And since the 3.5 Lychanthrope template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) does have most of those mentioned strengths, I consequently read this as "the 3.5 Lycanthrope template is stronger because it grants all this stuff which the PF Werewolf template doesn't":
Pathfinder werewolf, it's weaker than D&D's as you get the better of your physical or the wolf's (ex. You have an 18 str, the wolf has a 13 str, you would use your strength) Then +2 to str and con in animal or hybrid. +2 Wis and -2 Cha In all forms. DR 5 or 10 depending afflicted or natural. There's no racial HD, and it counts as only 1 level. There really isn't much reason aside from roleplay aspect to play as an afflicted, you need to try to control your form whenever you shift.And the "no racial HD" also happens to be incorrect for both the 3.5 Lycanthrope template and the PF counterpart (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope/) - which is not the Werewolf player template. The difference is that in PF - back when there were official GM guidelines (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/#Monsters_as_PCs) for this - the LA for a PC starting as a werewolf would've been equal to the CR of the base animal +1, and that LA would've also granted the animal's hd (so a human werewolf PC would've had +2 LA and the 2 racial hd of a wolf).

Not to mention that, again, a PC starting with the Lycanthrope template in PF would without exception be using houserules, since it's not an option per RAW (and PF's race creation system replaced the old "Monster as PCs (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/#Monsters_as_PCs)" guidelines years ago). So anyone other than the DM for the game in question stating such "rules" is at best just making qualified guesses.

Anyways, it seems the poster had missed how similar the PF Lycanthrope template is to its 3.5 predecessor, didn't know about the mentioned outdated PF guidelines, and confused the regular PF Lycanthrope template with the Werewolf player template (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/dreamscarred-press/werewolf-player-template/) being discussed.

[ZamielVanWeber]

When I looked at the example were-dudes on the SRD I did not see the pile of HD that I knew 3.5's lycanthrope template so I got confused. The player only one from DSP is an excellent grab. DSP's product tends to be very high quality, if a bit on the stronger end. My only last concern is that my DM can hurt me in the face of regen 5, fast healing 2, and dr 8/silver.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Upon further review I a thinking cleric is going to be a much stronger choice and if I take knowledge and bestial I save an early on feat and still get greater magic fang for my claws and the slight loss of BAB is balanced by the many buff spells cleric has and I can devote later on feats to extend or quicken. I will probably pass up persist due to it being either resource intensive or a bit cheesy... probably. I admit persistent Recitation is pretty tempting as a nice buff for everyone involved.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Upon further review I a thinking cleric is going to be a much stronger choice and if I take knowledge and bestial I save an early on feat and still get greater magic fang for my claws and the slight loss of BAB is balanced by the many buff spells cleric has and I can devote later on feats to extend or quicken. I will probably pass up persist due to it being either resource intensive or a bit cheesy... probably. I admit persistent Recitation is pretty tempting as a nice buff for everyone involved.PF cleric or 3.5? Because cloistered cleric is much better skills-wise, and if you're doing much hunting, you'll want to wear light armor anyway to keep your penalties to sneaking minimal.

Just make sure to add the skillful enhancement to your necklace of natural attacks so your unarmed strikes and claws give you medium BAB. Might wanna add throwing and distance to it, too, and fluff it as you pulling a wuxia stunt -- slashing through the air at range.

[ZamielVanWeber]

3.5. Because Greater Werewolf has a BAB requirement I cannot use cloistered without really gumming up the works (plus reclaiming lost ground from medium is a lot pricier than from half). If I forget the Bestial Domain I can use Golarian Cleric to fix my BAB easy peasy. But a golarian cloistered cleric does feel a bit like cheating.

I see three really viable options at this point:
Give up domains, turning, and Knowledge Devotion for arcane disciple and become good at metamagic plus gain a huge pile of arcane buffs starting at... 4th (curse Earth Spell not being metamagic).

Do plain cleric. Keep Knowledge Devotion. Maybe trade turn undead if I am confident I won't do a late DMM. Even without Nightstick stacking I can afford 2 quickness or one persist. Skill Points become a drag though. Shifting feats are easy to come by (nice!).

Do evangelist. Metamagic is doomed and my spell casting is slowed further, but I would gain a ton of spells, some nice domain powers, and the Customize Domain feat gives me a very strong list (Luck and Magic have very broad criteria.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Too bad you can't do beguiler/rainbow servant. That would get you roguish skills, casting, and all cleric spells cast spontaneously.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The cleric buffs would come on way too late. I would be better off juggling arcane disciple in that scenario. Two flaws would let me juggle in the shifting feats as well as Earth Spell (just gonna be mildly annoyed I cannot take it is a bonus metamagic feat still). Switching my race to Illumian for IS:K would also work in that scenario, although my poor, poor, skill points. Switching bonus spells to Str would definitely be advantageous here.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The cleric buffs would come on way too late. I would be better off juggling arcane disciple in that scenario. Two flaws would let me juggle in the shifting feats as well as Earth Spell (just gonna be mildly annoyed I cannot take it is a bonus metamagic feat still). Switching my race to Illumian for IS:K would also work in that scenario, although my poor, poor, skill points. Switching bonus spells to Str would definitely be advantageous here.I think we should probably start back from basics.

List all the things you want in the build (mechanically; we can refluff as needed), and we can see if we can come up with a way to at least approximate it all in one build. Also, you should give a basic description of your character and his (or her, or its) role in the group.

What level are you starting at, again? What kind of campaign? And what houserules do you know of?

[ZamielVanWeber]

So I want a werewolf and, honestly, I like the idea of using werewolf + greater werewolf.

I want to be good in melee (so 3/4 BAB or higher) and have some casting. I am not too concerned with losing caster levels as long as I can swing 5ths by 15 kind of thing.

The really relevant house rules I can think of are fractional BAB, -1 LA, and flaws allowed. Hex blade and Shadowcasters fixes are available.

I will want Wis based casting but I suspect I can sell my DM on letting me take Lost Traditions to shuffle a casting stat to Wis.

Not looking to push the optimization limits here but am looking to try something new as well as be a shifting wolf man with, ideally, less refluffing. I am not married to formless master, it just seems cool. I have gotten pretty attached to greater werewolf though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So I want a werewolf and, honestly, I like the idea of using werewolf + greater werewolf.

I want to be good in melee (so 3/4 BAB or higher) and have some casting. I am not too concerned with losing caster levels as long as I can swing 5ths by 15 kind of thing.

The really relevant house rules I can think of are fractional BAB, -1 LA, and flaws allowed. Hex blade and Shadowcasters fixes are available.

I will want Wis based casting but I suspect I can sell my DM on letting me take Lost Traditions to shuffle a casting stat to Wis.

Not looking to push the optimization limits here but am looking to try something new as well as be a shifting wolf man with, ideally, less refluffing. I am not married to formless master, it just seems cool. I have gotten pretty attached to greater werewolf though.Why not just take a quick dip into factotum or rogue with Able Learner, then go druid all the way up? You've got all or nearly all skills (and with near-zero MAD, getting a good Int is easy), you're potentially a fantastic fighter, have got lots of healing, great buffs and offensive spells, and you've even got a flanking buddy.

Skills + fighting + casting = win?

And the shapeshifting druid would even give you a hybrid form to play with, without having to bother with wildshape.

[Asmotherion]

For 0 LA get the spell Bite of the Werewolf. Get it persisted (Easy with incantatrix).

As soon as you cast the spell you can be a Werewolf for 24 hours.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Why not just take a quick dip into factotum or rogue with Able Learner, then go druid all the way up? You've got all or nearly all skills (and with near-zero MAD, getting a good Int is easy), you're potentially a fantastic fighter, have got lots of healing, great buffs and offensive spells, and you've even got a flanking buddy.

Skills + fighting + casting = win?

And the shapeshifting druid would even give you a hybrid form to play with, without having to bother with wildshape.

I play a lot of druid which is a major reason I turned up the idea originally and, as I said, I would like to try out greater werewolf. See how well it actually works. It is part of why I rejected being a druid when you first suggested it. Aside from it being side-eye worthy a golarian divine magician cloistered cleric has an extremely strong chassis and let's me munch on abjuration and divination buffs from the sorc/wizard list.

If I drop formless master my feats are no longer starved and it definitely opens a lot more room. I could drop knowledge devotion for customize domain (luck) and grab 9 amazing buffs since I am allowed to grab any spell that adds a bonus on a d20 roll.

I also feel like sohei deserves an honorable mention for being cool and not atrocious with the 3.5 update, although the narrow spell list SC refused to touch is a major issue.

[upho]

Upon further review I a thinking cleric is going to be a much stronger choice and if I take knowledge and bestial I save an early on feat and still get greater magic fang for my claws and the slight loss of BAB is balanced by the many buff spells cleric has and I can devote later on feats to extend or quicken. I will probably pass up persist due to it being either resource intensive or a bit cheesy... probably. I admit persistent Recitation is pretty tempting as a nice buff for everyone involved.Yeah, cleric can definitely be made stronger. And much more so with an Ordained Defender warder dip plus Battle Templar levels (see links in my first post). Although the Battle Templar requires an additional two feats, so probably not worth combining with the FM (at least not before higher levels).


I play a lot of druid which is a major reason I turned up the idea originally and, as I said, I would like to try out greater werewolf. See how well it actually works. It is part of why I rejected being a druid when you first suggested it. Aside from it being side-eye worthy a golarian divine magician cloistered cleric has an extremely strong chassis and let's me munch on abjuration and divination buffs from the sorc/wizard list.If you actually want to make the werewolf template & PrC combo truly sing, I believe there's no class combo stronger than Contemplative wilder (uses Wis instead of Cha, grants bonus feats) plus Ordained Defender warder or mystic (also Wis-based initiator), or possibly straight Pathwalker psy-war, and then all 10 levels of Awakened Blade (link in my first post). The psionic buffs (like metamorphosis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis/)) and martial maneuvers can turn you into an absolute combat monster with consistently ridiculous action economy and amazing offense and defense. And you'll be more than competent also outside of combat (psychic reformation alone will give you enormous versatility).

(To give you an idea of what I mean, here's an Awakened Blade example build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556361&postcount=89) I made for the Castilonium's zealot class guide a while back, plus basic combos details and example opening combat round (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556450&postcount=91).)


If I drop formless master my feats are no longer starved and it definitely opens a lot more room. I could drop knowledge devotion for customize domain (luck) and grab 9 amazing buffs since I am allowed to grab any spell that adds a bonus on a d20 roll.You could. Although I'd like to remind you that 5+ Shifting Feats alone provide a very useful and strong set of abilities/boosts, which also stack with virtually all other buffs and can be activated as a free action (with Rapid Shift), unlike spells. And also the abilities from 4 levels of FM are very powerful when compared to the cost of a single class level. That said, especially with 3.5 feat progression, I wouldn't recommend getting Shifting Feats without also getting FM levels. So considering the minimum 3 feats required, it may not necessarily be great for a build with other feat demands and which doesn't get any other class bonus feats (such as a cleric-based Greater Werewolf).

[ZamielVanWeber]

After thinking everything over and looking at all the information in the thread I went a bit to the left and ended up with druid 5/beastmaster 1 with the focused companion. With natural bond I have an effective druid level of 14 with terms and conditions. My DM approved a warbeast horrid dire tortoise so I can have my war turtle and turn werewolf and fight alongside him or use save or suck spells to hem enemies in with his insanely tanky self.